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I've wonder for a while now, what if Sunflower was not released and instead Reverbation and also Add Some Music were released?

give me a tracklist to work with, then I might have some ideas/opinions!

Reverberation________________________________________________________________
Cotten Fields
Loop De Loop
All I Wanna Do
Got to Know The Woman
When Girls Get Together
Break Away
San Miguel
Celebrate The News
Deirdre
The Lord's Prayer
Forver

Add Some Music________________________________________________________________
Susie Cincinnati
Good Time
Our Sweet Love
Tears In The Morning
Slip On Through
Add Some Music To Your Day
Take A Load Off Your Feet
This Whole World
I Just Got My Pay
At My Window
Fallin' In Love

They would both have been failures as Sunflower was.

Neither of those albums is bad though and I doubt it would have changed the band`s career that much.

I can't justify the release of "I Just Got My Pay" if it would have meant no "Marcella" later on. Otherwise, I'm iffy on these tracklists as is (especially the song order), but I think there was enough material lying around to come up with two solid albums.

They were right to rework the lineup. The label should have intervened more often and alerted the group when they were making boneheaded decisions (see also: Carl & The Passions).

What do you suggest for a better line-up for C&TP? I'm so used to hearing it as it is in the order it is so I would be curious to see how you would break it up. Here's an idea, we have 4 separate entities, right?
#1) Brian (sort of): YNAMOHTSA and Marcella
#2) Blondie & Rikki: Here She Comes and Hold On, Dear Brother
#3) Dennis: Make It Good and Cuddle Up
#4) Al, Mike, Carl (possibly Brian): He Come Down and All This Is That

So how about breaking them up per side. Here is a rough example:

Side A:
1) You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone
2) Here She Comes
3) Make It Good
4) All This Is That

Side B:
1) Marcella
2) He Come Down
3) Hold On Dear Brother
4) Cuddle Up

Still doesn't flow right for me. Got a better suggestion?

I cannot stand idly by whilst C&TP is spoken of poorly!

Although the marketing, title and presentation might have been... ill advised, I love that album with every ounce of my being.

I use this sequence. I like the flow:

Side A

1. Here She Comes
2. Marcella
3. All This Is That
4. Make It Good

Side B

5. You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone
6. Hold On Dear Brother
7. He Come Down
8. Cuddle Up

A rare disagreement. I'd rather the album have more closely mirrored the true, splintered musical directions of the group, and particularly Brian, more than the slick and deceptively "together", Vaseline-on-the-lens sheen of the final product. But I feel the same way about The Beatles' Abbey Road.

Here's mine:

Side A:

1. You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone
2. Marcella


Side B:

1. Make It Good
2. Cuddle Up

I still don't think Sunflower holds together very well as a cohesive album -- it might not be as bad as 20/20 but you definitely grasp that they're at odds with each other in terms of musical tastes.

It is very of a piece sonically thanks to Mr. Desper, but yeah, it is a false sense of cohesion, in my opinion. And the album cover is Captain & Tennille level sap.

I like the album cover just because it means I could have an album signed by Brian, Al, Mike, Bruce... and also Christian Love and Matt Jardine. (Because they're Beach Boys sidemen AND they're on the album cover! Continuity, man.)

Yea I like the album cover as well, I don't see how people could not like that album cover, hey it couldn't be as worse as many other album covers they had  :lol

and childless Bruce, whose sings about his woman leaving him and taking his baby.

I don't know if this is referring to me or not, if it is just stop its just getting really immature now -_- not trying to start problems but just stop with it okay? that's all I ask, if it's actually referring to me, if not than I'm sorry.

I actually have no idea what you're talking about. on the Sunflower album cover everyone is pictured with their children. Bruce didn't have any children at the time so of course there were none standing by him on the album cover.

"Tears in the Morning", about a breakup, contains the line, "hope you love the baby I'm never gonna see", so the character in that song had a child with a woman and she took child with her.

sorry if that somehow came off as making fun of you or something, though I'm not quite sure how it could've.

Ohh, sorry about that I actually thought it was some joke about me.

My guess: they would have sold just as poorly. The only difference would be that the album wouldn't be revered as highly by fans as it is now. It would be another Surf's Up, parts great and parts something else. in fact, it could be more interesting, but not as solid.

I think we should all be VERY glad none of these got accepted. Reverberation is outright horrendous given the inclusion of the utterly obnoxious Loop De Loop, the less-than-interesting Cotton Fields (which would probably be in mono, screwing up everything, and had already appeared on 20/20), the up-beat but low flying San Miguel and Celebrate The News which should remain a single only. I think When Girls Get Together is far superior to the existing Bruce material on Sunflower.

Perhaps my ideal sequence would be like:

Side A:
Add Some Music To Your Day
This Whole World
Got To Know The Woman
Our Sweet Love (hate the lyrics man, but still good song)
When Girls Get Together
It's About Time

Side B:
Slip On Through
All I Wanna Do
Forever
At My Window
Falling In Love
Cool Cool Water

I'd rather they just extended Sunflower with a fewe of the better tracks they had at the time.

According to AGD's site, it appears that San Miguel was recorded in time to be released on 20/20. Could it have been mixed in time to appear on that album? I can see it fitting there rather than on Reverb./Sunflower/etc.

Ditto "Do It Again" was recorded before the release of Friends, but was it mixed in time to be released on Friends?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wow that was un called for ...

anyhow I think the track listening is decent but could be a little better as well

Don't worry, I. Spaceman is harmless. Like a dog that barks at you from behind a neighbourhood fence, or the mild rush of terror when you think you have run out of loo roll but, no, turns out someone bought more.

This is possibly the worst post I've ever read on this forum. "Celebrate the News" is one of the group's very best songs -- the single should've been flipped! -- and even among fans seems to be criminally, grotesquely underrated. It deserves a far wider release than it has received -- I hope it's on the box set! ("San Miguel" is cool too, though obviously not on the same level.)   

maybe I didn't come across accurately. I dig 'Celebrate The News' and I've got it on my BB playlist. But it is not suitable for Sunflower. For 20/20 it coulda done that album service if it got rid of Bruce's syrupy Nearest Faraway Place. But I heard it was recorded after that album was released. That was what I meant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7EMa06EA78
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbbDMdEwT7I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzoWaPdwTyg

Well i decided to make a video of the Add Some Music album, to see how it sounds, sounds like it could've been a  pretty good album, I'm also doing on on Reverbation.

Ah, yeah, sorry for admonishing you then! I really wish Dennis had written more songs like that, it's truly a psychedelic freakout! It stands uniquely in their catalogue for just such a reason, I think. Though I'm not sure it would've been any more out of place on Sunflower than "It's About Time" was and is still.

Nice idea to do a playlist. I would say (based on this tracklist) that it's a meh album with a few really great highlights.

To me, Sunflower was always the album where the guys were spreading their wings and really taking off as songwriters (other than Brian who reached that point years ago). Even Al got some credits on Sunflower. They dipped their feet into the water on Friends and 20/20, and were perched to express themselves.

So, yeah, the album is all over the place, but Stephen Desper was able to pull it together sound-wise to avoid a hodge-podge feeling. However, the sequencing on Sunflower might be the worst of any BB album. The sequence didn't affect sales, but, a different song sequence coulda made it a much better listen, a better flow.

Here's Reverberation would've sounded like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cSUbrAcCRM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJTe_RKrSh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYUg82JdmIY

"This video contains content from EMI, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds."

Yea it's been blocked in some countries lol

Agreed - Celebrate the News is an awesome record! To me, it's the best BB fade ever - even better than Surf's Up, A Day In The Life... and Funky Pretty, all of which i adore, but CTN beats 'em all! And yes, it should've been the A-side with Breakaway on the reverse.

Personally, i think it's for the best the record company forced the boys to rethink the album line-up - whatever Sunflowers' supposed faults, there is nothing on it that comes close to the lameness of When Girls Get Together or Take A Load Off Your Feet. However, as always the group seemed entirely incapable of telling the good from the bad and dropped several exceptional songs along with the trash, namely Dennis' San Miguel and the beautiful Lady. Sunflower is excellent but replace Tears In The Morning and At My Window (both of which i can happily stomach, especially the latter, but they're most certainly the album low points) with these two Denny songs and the album goes from a great record to an almost perfect one!

1. Slip On Through
2. This Whole World
3. Add Some Music...
4. Got To Know The Woman (screw the haters - this is an awesome track! A few more songs like this and maybe the guys wouldn't have been considered such squares at the time!)
5. Deirdre
6. It's About Time

7. Lady
8. All I Wanna Do
9. Forever
10. Our Sweet Love
11. San Miguel
12. Cool Cool Water

Because my ears invert inward, grow teeth (and scary eyes), and start eating at my brains when one song is on mono and the next is in stereo. Those three or four Beach Boys albums that feature mixed mono and stereo are the worst things I've heard in my entire life and I set myself on fire when made aware that I'm in the same room as one of those albums.

Does anyone have the big group shot of the band in costume? I think the whole "Add Some Music" concept was just one of those BB 'things', sort of corny and sentimental, but very earnest and uplifting at the same time.
I think that period is underrated, and I've gradually come around to a less fractured idea of the group during 1969. The Sunflower "album offering" is one of the band's highest peaks, and the only song I'd probably really want to add to the album is Breakaway.

That is Ethan J. Clark under a new name. No need to coddle the psycho.

Okay, I know this isn't a Beatles board, but I have to admit, I'm curious.  What does your Abbey Road look like?

I love a lot of the album, but it is just too slick for me overall. And the idea behind the album was too make a self-conscious "Beatles" record, in the mode of Sgt. Pepper etc., a production LP. At that stage, certain members of the band let Paul and George Martin run away with their idea of a Beatles album. Except for the beginning and ending of it, the medley has never done much for me, it was a place to drop off half-finished, substandard songs, for John at least.
But I must say, a good percentage of my favorite music of the 70's (Raspberries, Big Star-Chris Bell, Badfinger, etc.) was inspired directly by the sound and feel of that album. And Booker T. And The MG's heard the album and were moved to cover the whole damn thing. So what the heck do I know? I'm just kicking a skyscraper and stubbing my toe.

I thought Ethan J Clark (AKA the consternator) had already rejoined under his own name sans numbers? Suppose I'm just out of the loop.

Interesting, and I’m picking up a lot of what you’re putting down.  Still, I’d argue the LP is more “polished” than “slick.”  It’s certainly a professional-sounding album (much more so than what the group had just recorded in January), but to say “slick” conjures too many negative connotations for me.

It’s well documented that the group wanted to finish things off in what they (probably mostly Paul and G. Martin, yes) considered a proper manner, and I can’t fault them for that.  Truth be told, though, I tend to agree with you concerning the imperfect nature of the medley.  It has its glorious moments, to be sure (and that ending is wondrous), but Lennon was only the first of many to come to feel less than enthused with the idea, or its results (with its almost forced-in feel of some of the material).  That said, I really dig almost all of the medley’s songs themselves, even if I would have preferred complete renditions of ‘Mustard’ or ‘Pam,’ etc.

You know, I've heard George Martin say that his idea for any futher Beatles albums would have been to explore the medley idea to an even greater extent.  Boy, while this could have been great (and I honestly wouldn't put anything past the abilities of the group when they were unified), I think that a lot of work would need to be done in order to make something like this really shine, and I have my doubts.

I’d also agree with you that the overarching intent in finishing things properly was to produce a true “Beatles album,” with all that entailed, but I disagree that this was ever meant to be in the vein of Pepper specifically, as the spirit of experimentation which lay at the heart of that production was, by and large, much more toned down for this effort.

If John hadn’t missed so much of the beginning of the sessions recovering from his car crash, maybe things would have played out differently.  But with his heart on things like leaving the group, playing with the POB, and Yoko, and with his mind on things like smack, who knows?

Still, I can’t argue with “Come Together,” “Something,” “Oh! Darling,” “I Want You,” “Here Comes the Sun,” “Because,” and much of that imperfect medley.  Hell, I even find the much-derided “Octopus’s Garden” charming.

And I promise not to hijack this thread again.

I agree with all that, definitely, you're just glass half full, and I'm glass half empty.

There is a notable absence in this list... My least favourite song of all time ;)

RE: Sunflower... it's simply perfect, the only reason it'd be fun to play with the tracklisting is to imagine what  some of the other tracks floating around at the time might have sounded like with the same level of mix finesse. It's got the best sound of any album I've ever heard.

When folks talk about Sunflower, they always talk about the sound and mix. Interesting to note.

Wat

I think it goes without saying that the songs are great...I habitually spit whatever I'm drinking at the computer screen when I see people knocking 'got to know the woman', 'tears in the morning', 'deidre' etc, and no, 'our sweet love' isn't a rewrite of GOK!  ;D

The sound is incredible though...

Considering lots of the tracks were in progress during 20/20 and before, I think it's notable that a special effort was made with the mixing- like I said, that's the only way I can contemplate changing tracklistings is if I fantasise about hearing a decent mix of 'Lady' or something...

Yep, its just a new name (and thanks for the many more of your hurtful comments I.Spaceman)
Anyhow I think that the Sunflower mix is pretty good, it's a perfect album and it just sounds so lovely, it has that Pop feeling to it, and Abbey Road is the same way, well that's to me anyway.

Yes, nowhere near as hurtful as saying someone should stomp on your head and kill you, as you have said to me before.

Well as i stated before i'm sorry for my actions and threats.
Anyhow getting back on the topic  :)

Well, you're not forgiven.

Well, that's understandable so okay.
Anyhow moving on now, to be really honest I actually like how Reverb and Add Some sounds like to me, nothing against Sunflower, but pretty much Reverb and Add Some Music are pretty much Volume 1 & 2 of Sunflower and Sunflower is just pretty much a combination of both

Shut the f*** up already dude.

"If John hadn’t missed so much of the beginning of the sessions recovering from his car crash, maybe things would have played out differently.  But with his heart on things like leaving the group, playing with the POB, and Yoko, and with his mind on things like smack, who knows?"


I Don't think John was on smack during the Abbey Road sessions, I thought it was after
(a bit off-topic)

He's just bullying you, seriously Ian is a constant source of friction here. The way I understand it is he had some type of melt down several years back, made his own music message board, and has come back now for god only knows what reason. A story not especially far removed from your own, ironically.
He's gotten just the slightest leverage over you, and he's out to milk it for everything it's worth. I'm sure he can spend several hours typing up posts explaining why his histrionic behavior is totally justified, and how you simply deserve it as punishment for something or whatever. That's all bs though, he's taken the joke past the point of anyone besides him thinking its' funny, and he's just going to keep going and going. Why? I honestly don't know.

Hibbity, I'd say just stop using this board for a couple of weeks. Take a little break, and then when you come back make an entirely new account that isn't linked to your current one in anyway. As long as he know's who you are he'll continue gettin' hysterical over it. 

To quote the mighty Jack Nicholson (in the less than mighty Mars Attacks): 'Why can't we all just get along?' We are after all supposed to be discussing the Beach Boys here, not terrorist atrocities or cures for cancer...

What makes Sunflower so professional sounding compared to 20/20? It's such a huge jump and I'm interested to find out how it was achieved. For example, would a decent remix of something like All I Want to Do get it as pristine sounding as something like It's About Time, or were recording advancements partially responsible for Sunflower's clarity and polish?

Mind your own business, and don't swear at me, prick.

Why the HELL are you on the side of someone who did what he did? Are you put of your mind, or just stupid? Both? When the mother fu.ck did I ever post the pictures and threats that he did? NOTHING I have ever done compares. I really, really wish you had gotten the threats I did from him. You wouldn't be defending him at all.
I'so sick of taking sh*t from people.

No, John was certainly on heroin (whatever one's definition of "on" is) before Abbey Road, and though I may have taken some liberties and inadvertently implied that John was using during the actual sessions (which there was never any indication of),  1969 was (if you'll pardon my making even more of an sweeping staement than before) a heroin year for Lennon.

Then leave! Leave this board for the love of all that is good and holy.
You know why people are giving you sh*t? Because you're a jerk, you're the one causing problems. And believe it or not, I'm not on anybody's side. I just dislike having to listen to your whining all the time, and could care less about whatever petty grudges you're holding. Just shut the hell up already. Nobody cares about you're self righteous indignation, nobody feels any sympathy for you because some mean man threatened you on the internet (seriously, are you 5?).
You're a bully, and I've had it up to hear with your crap. Time and time again, it's you that we have to thank for these derails and feuds. None of it is interesting or entertaining to anyone but you. Nobody is laughing at your snide attempts to provoke this guy by calling him 'bruce' or whatever.

shut up! shut up! shut up!

You are not a good poster, you're a source of incredible animosity, you're unlikable, you're an asshole. Feel free to stop posting whenever you want, please, you will in no way shape or form be missed by me. I'd rather have what's-his-face's gross pictures than you any day of the week.

It's time you grow up and get some self awareness Ian, people react badly to you everywhere you go because you're an unpleasant person. It's time you take responsibility for yourself. If you want to stop getting sh*t, stop giving it you fucking nitwit.

without looking thru all of the replies: i wouldnt give a care for both of the albums if they were released instead of my cherished SUNFLOWER.

Aww, I love you too, Bruce.

I'll hesitatingly step into this convo. I will admit I let Ian get to me a while ago. I even went to the Record Room and called him out for what I felt was exceeding rude behavior. He even made this comment to me:



But then I realized, he's just playing a game. Just as we all are. He's entertaining himself. And I got it, and now I actually kind of like and respect the guy. He knows that riling up Ethan "Hibbity" Clarke is gonna get the dude's underpants in a twist, so why not keep doing. It amuses him. And whatever.

I think you're a pretty cool cat, Sweet Dude. You get the joke.

Ahh, no, no, no. I can stomach any number of rants, feuds and tantrums from any posters at any time but, please, don't try to make out like it's all a joke. Like you're sat there chuckling away as you type. Because that is cringe-inducingly embaressing, far more naff than just being genuinely angry. Just be honest, you're pissed off. Don't try to imply it's all a - tee! hee! - joke, I mean really...

I think Billy C should just start banning people for carrying on. I've said my peace. And I think we're all past the EthanClarke thing at this point, so maybe it's time for a moderator to just tell Ian to stop bringing it up or get banned. There's teasing or good natured ribbing, but this is a time when other members have expressed their annoyance with the behavior. There isn't a lot of moderation here, we're a pretty self regulating community, and when multiple members all feel as if a poster is acting inappropriately after being asked several times to stop, I think Billy C has justification for taking action.

If Ian can quit his game, and if we can get the thread back on track there should be no need for that however.

Now, lets get back to Sunflower. What do people think about the alternate lyrics for Add Some Music?

No, Billy C should never have let Ethan back on, if anything. And I have already complained to the moderators about being harrassed myself. Billy is a great guy, but not the only moderator.

No, I'm saying the whole thing is, ultimately, a joke.

They're not very good! Very awkward. Thank God they changed 'em. 'Add Some Music..' in fact is the exact opposite of 'Santa Ana Winds', wherein they had nice flowing lyrics and then they changed them for awkward, jarring ones for the released version.

Wow did I miss a lot lol

"Now, lets get back to Sunflower. What do people think about the alternate lyrics for Add Some Music?"
Not so great lol

Spot on I think. The comparison to SAW is pretty apt, I hate how they mutilated such a nice little song.

It's the opposite, man. "On my porch, thinkin' about the torch" - so awkward and no flow. I do think the spoken intro on the released version is majorly corny, but all in all, I prefer what they did to it for release on KTSA.

Lyrics aside, how can you prefer the KTSA version?? The unreleased version sounds homey, gentle, almost Friends-like; the production is tasteful and subtle and very Beach Boys-like. The released version however has had all the life sucked out of it. The chorus is just produced to within an inch of its life, and just sounds so tinny and massively overly-processed. It really is awful, lifeless. Even Carl's great vocal cry on the tag doesn't come off. It takes real effort to ruin such a nice song - nice one Johnston!

Hey, I may just be the biggest Beatlefan in the world...   but that doesn't mean I'm a masochist!

I'd like to see a dream tracklisting for 15 Big Ones/Brian's Back/whatever you wanna call porn stars singing oldies....with the likes of Holy Man, Pacific Ocean Blues, Good Timin', It's OK, Angel Come Home, California Feelin, Ding Dang, Sea Cruise, and so on...

I haven't synthesised this tracklist just yet, but I imagine my ideal '76 album would probably look something like this:

All of My Love
Rainbows
It's O.K.
Good Timin'
Angel Come Home
Trombone Dixie
Soulful Old Man Sunshine

River Song
Sherry, She Needs Me
Can't Wait too Long
Had to Phone Ya
Holy Man
Pacific Ocean Blues
California Feelin'

that's all over the place. Angel Come Home and then Trombone Dixie and then Soulful Old Man Sunshine??

homework goes IN THE TRASH

I'm not keen on the strings on the released SAW, but I prefer the lyrics.  Best track on the album, but it's a pity it didn't grace LA instead.

A+ username/avatar combo btw

I like it. It's in some way, a really strong album. I would say using old BB vocals like Soulful and Can't Wait too Long is strange but it's nothing new to the Beach Boys realm of albums. Pretty much from 15 Big Ones, Love You, KTSA are all guilty of it

Am I the only one here who likes Loop de Loop? I don't know which version is the "common" here, but I refer to the original one with Brian and Al singing falsettos on the verses, and Mike only on the "loop de loop flip flop flyin'..." part. Even the lyrics are better. You know, that song can come to a real good psychedelic atmosphere...

I had a listen to it today, and I totally agree with you that it's a bit hodge-podge sounding, but in my defence it'd be difficult getting any sort of balance with those tracks unless you did a whole Dennis side or something.

Okay, attempt two. If I were to construct a Brian heavy album which used a Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!!) meets Sunflower template (which is what I think the record buying public would have really liked the boys to put out after Endless Summer) through using old and new tracks without giving too much away (i.e. no vintage Brian leads, falsetto harmonies are a lot easier to get away with though I think) and with cohesion on top of that, I'd put together something like the following:

Soulful Old Man Sunshine
San Miguel
It's O.K.
Good Timin'
Sherry, She Needs Me
Trombone Dixie

Susie Cincinnati
Had to Phone Ya
Rainbows
California Feelin'
Angel, Come Home
Brian Falls into a Piano

If something like this had been released in place of 15 Big Ones it not only would've fared a whole lot better on the charts, but it would have taken a lot of pressure off Brian and allow him to slowly ease back into a more creative set of mind. Also, I know that last track is a little bit left field and may be considered weak by some, but I think it'd tie together the whole "Brian's Back" campaign really well and it'd harken back to the joke tracks of All Summer Long, Summer Day's (And Summer Nights!!!) and other early Brian led albums which the Endless Summer crowd would really enjoy.

Also, I really think that ending of Rainbows, California Feelin' and Angel Come Home would segue into a Dennis and Brian led album along the lines of Pacific Ocean Blue really well. Oh man, the thought of that has me salivating. If only :(

Had to Phone Ya is essential Brian Wilson! Have you heard the gorgeous backing track? I know it's helped a lot of other people appreciate it. The album mix just doesn't do it complete justice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDr2jZzirw4

Ms.Rover's dislike of "Had To Phone Ya" has been stated before. Seems odd, but I guess not everyone can like everything. That one might be in my top 10, takes me back to a very specific time in my life.

Huh. That instrumental version imo, doesn't really reveal anything you don't already hear in the vocals version. 15 big ones mixing
style, and raspy vocals are fine by me.