The Smiley Smile Message Board

This may be the coolest thing i've seen on any album/song ever.

Listen to the last line of the 2nd part,

"I heard the Word /

WONDERFUL thing /

A CHILDREN's SONG /

The CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN"...

Notice that both BWPS and TSS both have "Look" changed to "Song for Children".... Proof of the 2nd movement?!?!

Well, Child is Father of The Man was not part of Surf's Up in 1966, and Song For Children (the title of which may very well have been inspired by Surf's Up) was not heard of until 2003/2004. So I would say no.

BUT it was part in '71, which shows that Brian may have had some idea back then.

Even if, and AWESOME mistake.

Well, like I said, it probably wasn't a mistake to re-name Look Song for Children.

True, but still, CIFOTM and wonderful!

I believe there's a little more to this revelation than what you have picked out,


"I heard THE WORD /

WONDERFUL thing /

A CHILDREN's SONG /

The CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN"...

we all know that "bird" is the word, and that leads me to having a notion that the second movement of Smile would have likely progressed from Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow/Bird is the Word to Wonderful, Song for Children, Child is Father of the Man and finally, Surf's Up.

Erm, doesn't the second movement start with the words "Dove nested towers…"?

2nd movement of smile.

William Wordsworth

My heart leaps up when I behold
A rainbow in the sky:
So was it when my life began,
So is it now I am a man,
So be it when I grow old
Or let me die!
The child is the father of the man:
And I could wish my days to be
Bound each to each by natural piety.

Also used by Blood, Sweat and Tears (1968)

Also some similarly titled poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins

The child is father to the man.
How can he be? The words are wild.
Suck any sense from that who can:
No;what the poet did write ran,
'the child is father to the man.'
The man is father to the child.
How can he be? The words are wild!

 ;)

How do you know this?

For some reason I can hear this on Smiley Smile  :lol

What evidence do we have to suggest that it was.

Absence of evidence is not evidence. The evidence we do have is the story about Brian hearing the others messing up the rerecording of Surf's Up so badly that he had to come down and teach them how it was supposed to end.

Yeah, exactly. You know what that statement means? It means that because there is no evidence in 66/67 to suggest that Child was part of Surf's Up, there is no reason to conclude that it could have been part of the song.


I'm not sure I'd call that evidence. By the end of 1966, how many Smile songs directly incorporated parts from other Smile songs?

Well, let's just see...part of Look went into Good Vibrations, Who Ran The Iron Horse was taken out of H&V and put into Cabinessence, part of DYLW was put into H&V, YWMS and fade were taken out of H&V for The Old Master Painter,  I'm In Great Shape and Barnyard were taken from H&V (although we're not sure if Barnyard would've been on a late '66 album in any form).  I guess what I'm saying is that we just don't know if Brian would've put CITFOTM at the end of Surf's Up in '66-'67 or not.  No evidence to support either argument.

Had to edit a few things here.  I never heard any story that indicates that the guys were messing anything up.  My understanding is that Brian heard them working on the song, and went downstairs to show them what he had in mind for the ending.

Fair enough. But did his idea for the ending have it's genesis in 1971 or 1966/67? It works so naturally and majestically it seems a greater stretch to believe the former rather than the later.

Sort of - I mean, there are people here on a regular basis who can't hear the Good Vibrations nod at all and to be fair, he seemed to come up with that part in Look and that vocal part in Vibes around the same time, and then Look appeared to be entirely abandoned as a song.


That's not the same thing at all - that's taking parts out and using them for something else so that the original intention didn't exist anymore. Is anyone saying that if Brian had used Child as the coda to Surf's Up that there would be no track called Child is Father of the Man anymore or, at least, no chorus to Child?

And also, part of DYLW was not put into H&V in 1966 - that didn't come until the confused H&V sessions in 1967. By the end of 1966, DYLW and H&V were totally separate entities that didn't reference each other at all, except possibly thematically.

Not to me. He had ample opportunity to sing the Child part when he played the song live for the Bernstein show, and demoed it both in 1966 and later in 1967. He certainly could have sung the "A children's song, have you listened as they play..." part. He never did. Not once.

I agree that it works though consider the context in which it works - being placed atop a demo that was never intended to be a final product in 66.

"Heroes", "Vega-Tables", "You're With Me Tonight", "Our Prayer" all share elements, in addition, and I'm sure there's stuff I'm not remembering off-hand that neither of us named. There are a number of Smile tracks that show clear reference to one another.

Also, I hadn't heard the words "messing up" specifically, but we know Brian was not into the idea of finishing this song at some point - some reports say initially, others say the entire time up until the end. To have him suddenly burst into the room saying "This is how it goes", handing out parts, kind of indicates a sort of "If you feel you have to do this, at least do it right" sort of thing, to me.

I'd say it's unconfirmed if the "Child" ending was part of "Surf's Up". As pixeltwin said, "Absence of evidence is not evidence." It could've been around in '66 or '67, but in an incomplete state or just as an idear. The ending does seem fairly sparse without it. To me, it's too hard to say one way or another and I'm not sure how others can be so sure.

Not in the way I'm talking about, they don't. Explain at what point of Our Prayer is another song added. Furthermore, we don't really know if With Me Tonight is even a Smile track or a section of another track or what.


Surf's Up doesn't reference Child is Father of the Man, it has a Child is Father of the Man section as its coda. You can't say, for example, that Heroes and Villains references the Cantina section. It's just part of the song.


And "doing it right" included using a demo version of the song to complete it? Was that the intention in 1966 as well?

He can't sing two + parts at once. Maybe he just enjoyed singing the "Ah" part at the end? I dunno. But the reason runnerz outlined is precisely the reason why it seemed to me like Brian's involvement in Surf's Up 1971 was one of correction, rather than creation.

What other demo has Brian excluding lyrics to instead sing a buried background vocal? Besides the Surf's Up 1966 demo is double tracked and Brian had already put multiple vocal parts on his Vega-Tables demo recorded shortly before that.


Then why didn't he correct the part where they use a demo for the second half in lieu of an actual session recording from that time?

Also, what is the source of this story where Brian bursts into the room? Not saying I don't believe it, I just want to look at it for myself.

The source of the story is Jack Reilly - I belive the story is archived here somewhere, isn't it?  And wasn't it mentioned in the rolling Stone 1970 2 part story on the Beach Boys?

However, the way the story goes is Carl put together Surf's Up for the album and he was the one who added the Child is Father to the Man tag.  The LYRICS to that part were added at the suggestion of Brian, but I believe the lyrics were a last minute collaboration between Brian and Jack.  It's a little unclear if Brian really came up with they lyrics or not.

I'm with Rockandroll on this one.  No tape evidence of Child being part of Surf's Up, no press or later interviews (the Preiss book, Vosse interview, Anderle interviews) suggesting that.  He doesn't sing Child on the Dec 67 Wild Honey version either.

But since the album was never finished, Brian MAY have decided if he finished it to put Child there, who knows.  But that's a far cry from suggesting there's some kind of proof it was always meant to be part of the song.

Oh, and as an aside - what's the source for Who Ran the Iron Horse ever being part of H & V?  That's a new one on me.

"With Me Tonight" - you're splitting hairs. It's a track recorded during the Smile sessions, several versions which contain the backing vocal arrangements from the 2nd verse of "Vega-Tables".

"Our Prayer" has the beginning of the "Heroes" chorus bassline in it. Mike does that little ascending bassline from the very beginning of the chorus right in the beginning of "Prayer".


It's a variation on "Child", though. It's not just a bit of "Child" tacked on for good measure. This is the case for several Smile tracks as it existed in 66/67.


Fair point, but they'd done the work already. It's not my fault that Brian is inconsistent and chose to remain passive more times than just this once. Still, fair point.

Was it recorded during the Smile sessions? The track on the Smile Sessions boxset is dated June 6th and 7th of 1967, putting it squarely during the Smiley Smile sessions, which also happen to have been during the Vegetables sessions. Is it not possible that maybe With Me Tonight isn't referencing Vega-Tables but was instead possibly considered part of it?


Oh, come on. That is something different completely.


I'm aware of that but it's a direct incorporation, not just a reference. You can say that the end of Surf's Up contains a "variation" of Child but you could never say that a section of Our Prayer contains a variation of Heroes and Villains.


In fact, it's not the case for any of them, save one. The one exception is when Brian put the Bicycle Rider section into Heroes and Villains but at that point he was throwing everything he could at Heroes and it may have been the case that he would have had to eliminate Works all together because of that move - or at least the Bicycle Rider section of Worms may have no longer worked there.

Just listened to the Our Prayer multitrack , no way, Mike's part is not even close, either attempt.

Something that should also be mentioned regarding the Heroes and Villains Bicycle Rider connection is that they are in two different keys.  The DYLW section is Gm and C7 while the H+V version is in D#m and G#7.  He couldn't just take one section from DYLW and stick it into H+V

Good point but I don't mean that he took one section and transplanted it, putting it into another. That's not what is happening Surf's Up 1971. What happens on Surf's Up 1971 was not done with any other Smile track - except for when Brian did the variation of Worms for H&V but who the hell knows what was going on with the Smile project at that point.

I'm saying multiple Smile sections share common elements as "Surf's Up" contains a variation on "Child", not just "Child" with its key changed inserted onto the ending or something. No version of "Child" contains the "A children's song" melody, among several other vocal parts not present on any version of "Child". It's not direct, it's closer to a reference - it's the ending of "Surf's Up" as played on the demo in '66 with a much more elaborate variation on the chorus of "Child" put over the top of it.

I'm not sure how you're basically trying to disprove that several Smile sections share elements with one another, but fair enough. I'm not talking about Brian taking a section from one song and moving it to another (as you seem to be), I'm talking about melodic and musical fragments that exist in multiple songs and reference one another.

Agree to disagree, I guess, as we're not gonna convince one another. Sorry if I came off as a dick anywhere, no hard feelin's, that sorta thing. :)

Mama Says. 'nuff said.

Yes, but as I have been reminded in this thread, the "children's song" part seemed to definitely be a 1971 creation.


I'd call something that directly uses the same lyrics and basically the same chorus vocals direct.

 
Because they don't really exist, not on the level that we see with Surf's Up incorporating Child.


I do? Did you miss two posts ago where I wrote: "I don't mean that he took one section and transplanted it, putting it into another. That's not what is happening Surf's Up 1971."


Well, I'm not talking about that either. I'm talking something akin doing a round of "I'm gonna keep well my Vegatables/Cart off and sell my Vegetables" at the end of Wind Chimes. This sort of thing was simply not done on Smile. But it became part of the Smile style in 1971 and was then used to a larger degree on BWPS (Child in Song for Children, Plymouth Rock in Holidays). And I think it's for those reasons that people like to think it was part of Brian's vision back in 1966, despite no evidence to suggest it.

No.

The descending bass line that the piano plays at the end of Surf's Up is a clear and direct musical reference to Child Is Father Of The Man.  Whether Brian intended the coda to include the "A Children's Song" vocals in '66 is undetermined, but to deny there's a link at all is ignoring the musical structure of the song itself.

Show me your documented source for this statement, please. I've seen it mentioned in precisely one place since 1967 - your post.

Really? I don't see that at all, personally.

I think that the coda was meant to be wordless in 1966.  It seems like Brian's assertion in one of the teen mags (it's in LLVS) that people can get hung up on words applies here.  It would also make sense with Surf's Up as an album or side closer because it starts with ahs (Our Prayer) and ends with ahs (Surf's Up).  Just my .02

I hear it. Very clearly. Not sure if it was his way of incorporating that idea without vocalising it, or just a happy coincidence.

It's VERY prominent, listen to the  "Doooo   Doo Bah Dooooooo"

You sound like Murry. Syncopate it!

THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST?

I just listened to the 66 demo with Brian's double tracked vocals from the GV box set.  What I hear in the left hand at the beginning of the ahh coda is not the same, rhythm or melody, to child child child the child father of the man.  There is in the eighth notes of the pounding right hand (Fm7 Cm7/F Bb Cm), but not in the left hand.   The descending bass that comes from the Bb to Cm transition is not melodically similar to anything that is a part of the child chant.  They go together beautifully, but musically speaking, I don't hear any melodic or rhythmic clues from 1966.

I listened to it - not sure if they mean the part that only the bass plays right before the Child chorus.

In any event, I think they're the same run.

Does such thing exist?

I got it from the SMiLE A.D. fanmix kit, all the parts are isolated. Great stuff.

Ah right that's cool...not genuine multi-tracks though is it?  Sorry to be a pedantic dick.  :)

Nope, but you can still pull the harmonies apart

Great discussion here - I think the premise in the OP is a stretch to say the least, but at the same time I definitely hear a bit of "Child" in the original "Surf's Up" coda on Brian's piano version, so I don't think you can completely discount the notion of the "Child" ending being in Brian's mind in 1966. 

Maybe moving "Child" into "Surf's Up" was Brian's first cannibalization on Smile (taking a part of one song and moving it into another, thereby essentially abandoning the former song).  The timing would fit - he hadn't worked on "Child" in a few months, and although it was on the handwritten track list from December, perhaps he had already decided that the song just wasn't working, and had the great idea to use the chorus as the ending to "Surf's Up."  It certainly wouldn't be the only time during Smile that this happened, as we see with "Heroes" in early 1967.

Another somewhat interrelated observation: I've always thought it was a bit odd that Carl was the one who thought to use "Child" for the coda in 1971, rather than Brian.  It just doesn't seem like something Carl would do on his own.  Perhaps Brian told Carl of his intention in 1966/67 and Carl remembered, or maybe it was even attempted during Smile but the tape has gone missing - either way, how else would Carl have known to do that?  Moreover, even if it was Carl's idea, upon hearing the "Child" ending in 1971 (when he burst into the studio to add his final touches), wouldn't Brian have wondered what the hell they were doing using "Child" in that way?  Seems to me that the idea must have existed in some fashion before the song was finished in 1971, which brings me back around to the notion that it was in Brian's mind in 1966.

Carl was a creative guy. It was probably him who decided to incorporate Don't Worry Bill into Wonderful for the stage show, and also to include the little line from the Smiley version. It was probably also in his mind that Smile was going to be put out as an album in 1972, that he would have to do a lot of work on it. Putting the Child coda onto Surf's Up was probably a nice test run for a project that never actually happened.

The idea of themes reappearing in SMiLE matches the Frank Holmes' artwork for the album. As Andrew G.Doe pointed out many of the visual images are "quoted" in other SMiLE images made by Frank.

The idea that the lyrics of "Surf's Up" have something to do with the "Song For Children" displays a similar relationship.

Musically, David Beard of ESQ made the case for the Rondo as being much the basis for SMILE.

What's cool about this is that there's thematic congruence on there levels---music, lyrics, and art.

Sorry. Meant to say "three levels."

No-one seems to have mentioned that Child Is The Father (or something near as makes no difference) also ended up in Dada/Cool Cool Water. There's a lot you could speculate about that, because... well what did he mean by inserting that chorus into that song? Was Child junked? Was it a reference? Brian wrote Dada supping milkshakes from a baby bottle, apparently and Child might have been pretty literal about it's title - the 'that's our baby' thing from the session is our only clue, hard to tell without lyrics.

And it ties into a lot of the age-old questions about what Dada was supposed to be. But if you take the Cool Cool Water version as indicative of where the full Dada session would have gone.....

More than that, sundry elements from one illustration turn up in one or more other sketches. A fun way to pass an idle half hour is to catalog them.  :)

I sort of doubt that Mr. Wilson had gotten to the point that he had a good idea of sequencing and the existence of movements in Smile around 1967.  Perhaps he considered it as a possibility, but nobody involved in the project seems to have been aware of it.

Still, it's an interesting subject for two reasons: 1) I'd always been confused about the "Child is the Father of the Man" coda to "Surf's Up" on the eponymous album.  I think the song seems out of place on the album to begin with, but lyrically and melodically, the coda seems to come out of nowhere.  On Brian Wilson Presents Smile, however, because of the way that it's organized as part of the same movement as "Child is the Father of the Man," the coda doesn't seem to come out of the blue quite as much.  2) The sequencing on Brian Wilson Presents Smile sometimes works very well, but sometimes the attempt to create a flow between songs comes off as a bit forced.  The only movement I've ever found completely convincing is the second one.  That doesn't mean that he planned it as a movement, or that he planned to have the coda in the song, but the childhood connection already existed between the two songs even without the coda (the version of "Surf's Up" that he played on television ends with the lyric "a children's song"), so it wasn't too much of a stretch to connect them further.

I'd like to admit my ignorance on the subject of the lyrics of "Look"/"Song for Children."  Does anybody know whether these were written in 1966 or 2003/2004?  I know that the lyrics for "Do You Like Worms?" were written in 1966 but not originally recorded and I think that the lyrics for "In Blue Hawaii" were not written until the preparation for Brian Wilson Presents Smile, but I'm not sure about the other songs that appear as instrumentals in The Smile Sessions.

Yeah, I too doubt he was really gonna do the movements thing on SMiLE back in the '60s and I think the songs are all strong enough by far to stand on their own.

Now anyways, about which of the songs that some are not sure about the lyrics, well here's a pretty definitive take, in my opinion. All of lyrics for "Do You Like Worms" were done in the '60s; "Look"/"Song For Children" was done in the '00s; "Child Is Father Of The Man" had the chorus and possibly verse lyrics in the '60s, however the verse lyrics from BWPS are from the '00s; "Holidays" surprisingly actually had most of it's lyrics from the '60s, although I'm pretty sure the "pirate rap" came from more recently; and "In Blue Hawaii" had lyrics composed in the '00s, although one could say "Love To Say Dada" was "finished" as "Cool, Cool Water".

I'm wondering where we know that the lyrics for Holidays were from the 60s.

Because Frank Holmes did the illustration for Holidays before BWPS was conceived and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Holmes revealed to AGD that the source for his illustration was an old Van Dyke Parks lyrics sheet. The question is - is the melody from the 60s or the 00s? After all, it seems as if the Roll Plymouth "Once upon the Sandwich..." lyrics were from the 60s but the melody for those lyrics were arrived at in the 00s.

Yes! The true melody is HERE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RpdU8Bep28

Man, you really have it for that video, don't you?

I must admit, it has given me many hours of laughing pleasure. 

I've never seen that video until now and that seems pretty accurate in terms of that off the cuff thing Brian was singing on the session track.

Actually there was one posted by aeijtzsche on YouTube that actually sounded like it may have been the originally intended melody.

My guess is that the CIFOTM lyric line was inserted into the "Surf's Up" coda after CIFOTM was abandoned, not as a reference. The question is, when was CIFOTM abandoned? 1967? The drum pattern of the 1966 chorus was used in "Little Bird" in 1968, so CIFOTM was clearly abandoned by then - if it was Brian who inserted it there. "Little Bird" also features the bass pattern from the first movement of "Surf's Up", which had been abandoned at that point too, obviously.

Another topic- Was the line sung over the Coda meant for CIFOTM?

I mean the idea and melody.

everything on Smile was abandoned when Smile was abandoned.

No one knows, probably. There are other parts on there that aren't on any version of "Child," too.

That bass line pattern is Brian Wilson's standard piano left hand - 90% of his piano parts feature that bass pattern in the left hand.