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By "early" I mean before Dick Reynolds did the arrangements for side 2 of the Christmas Album. 

In particular, I'm thinking of "The Lord's Prayer" and the "Lavender" demo.  Is that all Brian's vocal arranging?  It's certainly as good as Reynolds.

Yes.

The Lord's Prayer... I don't know, but you can infer Brian did it from the recent Google group interview. The part-writing, which I once transcribed, seems not schooled nor in the style of professional band arrangers like Reynolds.

Considering the guy spent every waking hour analyzing Four Freshman records for a least one straight year of his life, I would say Brian was well schooled in the style of vocal arranging that he wanted to do.

Huh. So did Dick Reynolds do the vocal arrangements for the orchestrated Christmas songs then? I knew he did the instrumental atrrangements, but I actually thought Brian did the vocal arrangements, or at least helped.

Brian let Reynolds do the arrangements on the traditional material but he did all the arranging for the "modern" side of the record. 

Nah. Someone needs to go back in time and tell 1961 Brian that he can either take years and years of theory courses if he hopes to become a good songwriiter or he can STFU and GTFO.

I never heard a demo of Lord's prayer? How is it different from the arrangements on TSS

You're confusing "The Lord's Prayer" with "Our Prayer."

In his 1982 interview with Geoffrey Himes (for Musician magazine), Carl said that Mike had a hand in the vocal arrangements early on, specifically in how the bass vocal parts would go.

As much as it's assumed Brian learned all of the theory and harmony on his own, he did in fact take theory classes and he did in fact study under guys like Reynolds in order to further learn the trade. As far as it's a romantic notion of someone self-taught being able to write and arrange complex music without having a formal "training", when it comes to actually translating those ideas to music which can be performed, in many cases those self-taught people either need a "scribe" to formalize the notations into sheet music, or a working knowledge of how music works in order to make the actual music something able to be performed.

Of course the software and digital programs make it easy for someone lazy to type up a score, but in Brian's heyday in the 60's someone had to be available to transcribe the ideas onto paper if you couldn't do it. And an above- basic knowledge of harmony and inner voicings would be required to process what was going on in a Four Freshmen record beyond being able to pick out the notes.

A foodie could probably identify the ingredients in a certain prepared meal, but unless they have some knowledge of how to cook and work with those ingredients, if they try to replicate it in their own kitchen, the results will most likely show that lack of training. Same with music.

It seems to me that Brian learned just enough, formally, to be able to do what he needed to do.  Certainly his notation skills were questionable, as per the session people that talk about having to rewrite stuff.  But it would be interesting to know the full extent of the synthesis between whatever formal training he had with his self-study.  That would be something very interesting to ask Brian, beyond the usual softballs.

additionally, in the phrase "The Lord's Prayer" and the "Lavender" demo, demo is only in reference to Lavender.

I don't know how much musical theoretical lessons Brian got from certain teachers, but by analysing and transcribing songs by the Four Freshmen, note for note, I believe that could have been 90% of his whole harmony arrangement education. By doing it he learned all the harmonic possibillities of notes and chords through and through. (as upposed to many musicians who just make music by the heart but have no understanding what is going on in the notes.)

Alan, about those Four Freshmen tunes: Brian got it all searched out for us, and he gave it to us, from behind the piano. We sucked it up like a spounge.

By doing that he teached himself. Murry said about his son: (something like this:) this guy is not thinking about 4 voices, but he is thinking 6 to 7 part harmony!

Carl's style of vocal arranging is different.
He took over more and more production or arranging tasks from Brian, after 1967. F.e., he sings most of the vocals on I Can Hear Music (almost a Carl solo track), but in a more loose, improvisational style.  (loose, improvisational style of backing vocals is anyway very normal in popmusic)
Brian's style is more solid, as if he checked every single note against the others, and he tries to tell a story with some musical meaning with those backing vocals.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVlIFVJLP8I Heaven - Carl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9DXqZdas Heaven - Brian

What about the different versions of "Their Hearts Were Full Of Spring" then? Are they note-for-note copies of the original, or did Brian add/subtract anything?

as far as I can tell, Brian copied the Four Freshmen arrangement of Their Hearts Were Full of Spring almost exactly.

Mandatory follow-up question: where do they differ?  :)

On the Beach Boys version, the Beach Boys sing.  On the Four Freshmen version, the Four Freshman sing.

The point not being mentioned here which I mentioned earlier is that, yes, Brian painstakingly listened and transcribed the Freshmen vocal arrangements, and yes, Brian taught those arrangements to his brothers and the other Beach Boys and they performed note-for-note transcriptions of those songs.

However, in order to then apply those same concepts to *his own* original music and use those techniques learned from Freshmen records, he would need at least a basic understanding of chord theory, intervals, and music theory in general in order to apply a Freshmen technique to another song with different chord changes, different key, different structure, etc. You can transcribe a Freshmen arrangement, but if it's 4-part voices over a Imaj7-vi-iim7-V7b9 turnaround in F, and your own song is a totally different key and progression, you need to know how to translate and adapt it to the new key and why certain notes would not work in the arrangement.

Not saying it's happening here in this thread or with anyone specific, but I got a vibe in similar discussions in the past that somehow the notion of Brian being self-taught is more appealing than finding out he had taken formal music theory classes and had actually learned how to do some of these things in a more structured way.

I agree with Josh, Brian absorbed and internalized just enough of the formal theory and education to take what he needed and put it to use on his own songs. There is a vast difference between transcribing notes from a recording, to being able to play/perform them, to being able to then *use and apply them* as a tool when creating your own music. Brian needed certain tools in his arsenal to do the latter, and he used them with great results.

I did not mean to dismiss The Lord's Prayer's magnificent vocal arrangement, nor its exuberant performance by the BBs. I just meant that it did not sound like something Reynolds, or someone with formal conservatoire training would write. Heck, it does not even sound like the Four Freshmen in terms of voicing if you compare with, say, TTWFOS, an a capella standard by said group.

What about AuldLangSyne.  Is that Reynolds, or is it totally copped from The Four Freshmen? Because that vocal arrangement blows me away, it sounds like the song is melting or something.

It's Brian's.

That is actually Reynolds.  I was told that personally by Brian. 

To make that clear: AFAIK the traditional side of the Christmas album was arranged by Dick Reynolds, that includes not only the music but also the vocals. Brian produced it.
The "new"-side was produced & arranged by Brian in the classic Brian-tradition.
That said, the christmas album's traditional side is imo the very best example - in an complete album way - in their early carreer in showing what a great vocal group the Beach Boys were. They do absolute fantastic jobs in performing these very complex arrangements. Mike's bass singing is outtasight. I wish they would've done such an album with non-christmas music. It's incredible

My understanding is that Dick arranged the orchestral tracks, but not the vocals. They sound like pure BDW to me, especially "We Three Kings".

There's an interview with Brian on one of the CD versions of the album (Ultimate Christmas, maybe?) which was recorded at that time (1964), where he said Reynolds also did the vocal arrangements for the traditional Christmas songs.  That corroborates what Brian told me in 2005 about Auld Lang Syne.


(Love your book, btw.)

I think I've heard that Dick also did the vocal arrangements. To be honest, they don't sound like "pure Brian" to me. They're too deep into the jazz vocal arrangements and sound very authentic in that way, something that Brian's arrangements for the most part don't because his own personal style of where to place those jazzy vocals is very much rooted in a Rock'n'Roll/Doo wop terrain. "Santa Claus is comin'..." for example is nothing that Brian would come up with imo. He probably could do it but I don't think he would've changed his own style that drastically when he had one of the greatest arrangers working for him on that project.
That said, you got a point with "We three...", which sounds like something Brian would come up with. But going by ear and knowing that I heard before that Reynolds did the vocals (didn't Brian say that on Ultimate Christmas?), my vote goes to him.


EDIT:
I see SufferingFools was faster than me.

I may well stand corrected.  :)

Reynold's side  of the Christmas album is one of my least favorite Beach Boys sides. Sometimes I play people "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" just to make them angry. and most of the time, it works.

We Three Kings and Blue Christmas are great, but on the whole, I agree with you. An 80's radio hearing of that version of Santa Claus actually put my appreciation of The Beach Boys off for a few years.

You're right, "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is the worst, but luckily it is stuck by itself at the end of side 1.  

Side 2 of the Christmas album is actually a side I enjoy a great deal, apart from the whole "Hi, this is Denny.... and if you hap- happen to be listening to it right now..."  ;D

That's Frosty The Snowman you are thinking of. Also abominable.

Oh, you are right.   :o  That's even worse.

Remember the cassette version, where they were all scrambled up?  That was annoying.

One possibility to consider is that Reynolds and Wilson collaborated to some extent.  It doesn't have to be 100 per cent one or the other.  I'm not saying it wasn't only that it's possible.

Couldn't disagree any more with you guys. "Santa Claus is comin'..." is one great example of the Beach Boys being able to also sing "adult music". If you listen to the harmonies they pull off and how strong their singing is, it's just astonishing. It's just not Beach Boys style so to speak and certainly not Rock so maybe that puts a few people off.

I'm with Rocker here. Sure, the adult side isn't my favourite BB vinyl side, but the singing is great (no matter who arranged it) and the songs are stone cold classics. As holiday classics go, those are mighty decent renditions.

The singing on Santa Claus is fine. But the musical arrangement? I've heard better on those little 45s that used to come with kiddie Golden Books. I mean, Pop Goes The f***in' Weasel?

I agree, great singing on Santa Claus but an embarrassing instrumental track.  The one I really have no use for is Frosty the Snowman, which explains why I can enjoy side 2 in reasonable comfort.   :afro

There's some real sour notes on Frosty, too. Those guys weren't no Freshmen. Nor would I want them to be.

But Blue Christmas, White Christmas and We Three Kings are good. We can at least all agree on that..... can't we?

As for the question, I've never been lead to believe Brian's 'formal' music education was more than most college age kids who just took a course in music at high school (did he minor in music at college? He didn't major in it iirc). Carl & Dave probably knew more music theory from their guitar lessons than Brian learnt at school.



And, if we take the Xmas album out of the equation..... if not Brian, who else?

Yeah, and I'll Be Home For Christmas is alright too.

I like that one.  The harmonies aren't as interesting as We Three Kings or Auld Lang Syne, of course, but there's an enveloping warmth to the way they sing it.

Brian didn't go to college, did he?  I thought he didn't even graduate from high school until Hawthorne awarded him an honorary diploma, circa 1989.


I wondered if, for example, Hite and/or Dorinda Morgan might have had input into the "Lavender" arrangement.

Wow! I learn something new every day!!

I was going to say that I love Christmas Day that Al sings. Then I looked again, and that was on the Brian side anyway! A bit more folk arrangement then Brian normally does. Perhaps an Al influence there?

ditto

I was kinda shocked and disappointed to find out it was Reynolds, but finally I decided Reynolds must have been a bit of a genius himself.  8)

I have a few more thoughts about above things...

I like the idea of teaching just by listening. (not saying it is the only way, but I like it this way)
1. you listen to a record
2. you learn from it
3. you make something similar yet try to be different or more original, you make a record yourself = you're back at point 1. 'a record'

point 1 and point 3 are just about emotional listening experiences, the music goes straight to the heart.
In the end, the emotion is what matters, all the theory, modulations, chords, beats or measures are quite forgettable.

John Lennon did the same with basslines or grooves he took from other records, mostly black U.S. artists, and made it his own, to something different.
Example video 'John Lennon's Jukebox': http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7532896021332831792

With Brian Wilson to me it's clear he came up with very interesting chord schemes, or so called 'feels'.
But after that, that's where the songwriting, arranging and production becomes really interesting.
Important is: How does he make a lead melody above those chords? What kind of backing vocals, counter melodies? There are hundreds of possibilities, all above the same chords! Of course you need to know some musical language principals about rhytm and melody, make good voicings etc, but once you know that 'language' you can apply it to all your music.

Brian started at El Camino college in 1960, majoring in psychology, according to Wiki. So he must have graduated high school, but not college.

Again, why are we assuming that it's all or nothing?

Couldn't Reynolds have guided the arrangements in question with some form of active input from Brian?

I swear to God, you have the oddest musical taste of anyone I have ever come across. Ever.

To each his/her own I guess. I respect your opinions. But...

Maybe I'm being a little melodramatic, but, even if you don't care for the songs or melodies (Really, you don't care for the melodies?), "Blue Christmas" and "White Christmas" are important recorded performances in Brian Wilson's history, displaying that pure, incomparable voice that moved millions. For as great as Brian's voice was in that short period (1962-66), there are relatively few solo performances like these, and they alone make the Christmas album indispensable. With few exceptions, he never sang like that again.

Precisely. The notion that there was no collaboration at all, especially in this period in which Brian was hyper-competitive and with it, seems a little far-fetched, doesn't it?

Perhaps-but put it in perspective.   The Beach Boys were doing a lot of touring (with Bri playing all the shows) and they made appearances in three films, as well as tons of TV/radio/print promotion, photo shoots, etc.  Plus Brian was asked to come up with 5 albums of material!!! Indeed he was finishing All Summer Long up while also getting the Christmas LP together...perhaps he might, just might, have been happy to let Reynolds do the work-especially since in all probability the Christmas LP was Capitol's idea rather than Brian's.......Perhaps

Apparently.

A collaboration of sorts combined with an apprenticeship or on-the-job training from an older pro to a younger study is what it sounds like to these ears. Some of the instrumental flourishes, the old-tyme Hollywood orchestral sweeps and all of that ear candy on certain songs...that sounds more like the standard Hollywood "holiday cheer" type of arrangement than what Brian was capable of or was doing on his albums at that time...his stock and trade was *vocals* set to standard rock/R&B backings as of that time. He was not doing full studio orchestrations in 1963/64 anything like what is heard on the Christmas album...let's be honest, was he?

If his working method of singing out parts for small combos, then having a section leader like Steve Douglas transcribe and transpose the actual parts to be read by the other horns was his working method as producer and arranger going into 1966, he surely did not draft those arrangements and orchestrations with strings and horns on the Christmas album. That is not saying he didn't have the ideas or compose the counter-melodies and hooks!

I've mentioned before that there is a certain mythology around composers and arrangers once they become known names and or famous on the weight of their name on a piece of music. I had one professor in the past who worked with some of the more prominent names as composer/arrangers, and what it amounted to was a scenario like any production house: The person with the big name may have a simple melodic  line in mind, which he would sketch out, then a staff of writers would expand the idea, arrange it, orchestrate it, hand it to the copyists who would prepare the score and parts, then the composer would show up at the studio ready to record the cues or the arrangement if it were a song and not a film and conduct/direct the session.

Which is perfectly fine, but remember that what you hear and what you see credited to one individual may very well have been a melodic idea developed and realized by a team of anonymous staff writers and arrangers.

Yet who gets the awards and the accolades when it becomes famous? Some very famous names who have very recognizable music credited to them had less to do with the finished product associated with a film or song than many would assume.

I'm just restating that because having someone outside the core group pull things together and flesh out ideas to sweeten original ideas would not have been out of the realm of an arranger in the 60's. And if that outsider was capable of adding that Hollywood lush orchestral touch and the original arranger wasn't able to do so for a variety of reasons including scheduling issues, it's not unexpected and would be standard practice. Nothing wrong with that.

that organ break is the best part of the whole record. it would later resurface in 'when a man needs a woman'. i'd put money on BW having played in on both occasions. and the Chamberlin on 'Country Air' too !

The Christmas LP is kind of bland, but the Dick Reynolds stuff on ADULT CHILD is way cool !

And his vocal performances on Stella By Starlight and How Deep Is The Ocean are astounding! Almost as good as Jim Nabors.

All non-kidding aside, anytime I see a mention of Jim Nabors I think of a Gomer Pyle episode where Jim/Gomer sings "O My Papa"  in a restaurant and later ends up avoiding trouble with the mob when a boss hears him sing it and it brings him to tears. It's been 20 years since I've seen that or any Gomer Pyle episode, so my memory on details is hazy.

Anyway, yeah, Jim Nabors records were one of those constants when digging through boxes of old albums at yard sales.  ;D Definitely a style from a bygone era, and Reynolds' crooning does have that vibe!

Although I fail to see the humor, I also don't really understand the comparsion.

So Reynolds is a schmaltz fan? So is Brian Wilson. The 'big-band' stuff on Adult Child is brilliant, and totally unlike anything else ... Beach Boys, Dick Reynolds, Jim Nabors, or otherwise.

His arrangements on Adult Child are fine, no one was impeding your absolutely precious and indispensable commentary and opinions.
I was making a joke, I hope that is fine with you. If you don't see the humor in what I said, and the comparison, maybe Craig above nailed it. Not very hard to comprehend at all.

xoxoxoxo

For what it's worth, I was reading an interview online with one of the guys from the band Smokestack Lightnin' (sixties L.A. blues rock band), who was well acquainted with the Morgans by way of their studio. It was his contention that he knew for a fact that Dorinda Morgan had more than a little to do with the composition of both "Surfer Girl" and "In My Room". So if that's the case then your theory is highly plausible.

EDIT: In trying to find the exact quote, I came upon an old discussion on this board of the Smokestack Lightnin' guy's assertion that was at least partially debunked by Carrie Marks amongst others. Still it seems quite possible that Dorinda Morgan may have at least given young Brian some early assistance with his arrangements.

Thanks; I had wondered since Dorinda did write "Lavender."

I'm sure Brian would have idolized Dick Reynolds in 1964 and must have relished the chance to work with him.  By the same token, if Reynolds brought finished vocal arrangements to the studio, it's possible Brian might have been too much in awe of him to suggest any changes.