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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Amanda Hart on July 27, 2012, 08:24:11 PM



Title: Karen
Post by: Amanda Hart on July 27, 2012, 08:24:11 PM
Does anyone know who produced this song? I've searched all through my books and the interwebs and have not been able to find any confirmation for that. I did find an acetate that sold at auction in 2007 here: http://entertainment.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=647&lotNo=22192#Photo

It's from Western, so I don't know if that may narrow it down a little more, since I basically couldn't find any other information about it's recording. My instinct was that it was produced by the song writers (J. Marshall, B. Mosher) or some other TV guys and not by Brian, but I would like to get some hard evidence. Any information or shoves in the right direction would be appreciated!


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: JanBerryFarm on July 27, 2012, 08:28:50 PM
You mean the Beach Boys version? Probably a guy named Brian Wilson.

Or do you mean the Surfaris version? Not sure who produced that. Perhaps, Mr. Dant

Eitherway, it's a fun, if formulaic little ditty. I enjoy Monkeys Uncle a lot more.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Amanda Hart on July 27, 2012, 08:32:50 PM
You mean the Beach Boys version? Probably a guy named Brian Wilson.

Yes. I know it probably was Brian but stuff recorded specifically for TV and movies can be unusual, so I'm trying to find some hard proof.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on July 27, 2012, 08:52:41 PM
The last time this came up on the board, we pretty much agreed that the info was not really out there.

There certainly don't seem to be great records about the session or anything.  We might not even be able to assume it's actually Beach Boys playing instruments on the track, and my first instinct would be to say that Brian wouldn't have produced it, also like, say, Monkey's Uncle.  But nobody knows, unless someone's done some great work recently.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: petsite on July 27, 2012, 09:23:39 PM
I am going to take a shot and say that the producer was either Brian Wilson or Jack Marshall. Jack not only composed the song but was also a producer at Capitol at the time. They could have even combined talents to co-produce.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: JanBerryFarm on July 27, 2012, 10:00:24 PM
I am going to take a shot and say that the producer was either Brian Wilson or Jack Marshall. Jack not only composed the song but was also a producer at Capitol at the time. They could have even combined talents to co-produce.

Yes..co-producing was not unusual.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Jason Penick on July 28, 2012, 01:10:37 AM
The last time this came up on the board, we pretty much agreed that the info was not really out there.

There certainly don't seem to be great records about the session or anything.  We might not even be able to assume it's actually Beach Boys playing instruments on the track, and my first instinct would be to say that Brian wouldn't have produced it, also like, say, Monkey's Uncle.  But nobody knows, unless someone's done some great work recently.

Well according to this acetate, at least we can tell that it was recorded at Western.

http://entertainment.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=647&lotNo=22192#250250995 (http://entertainment.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=647&lotNo=22192#250250995)

Looks as though the proper title is actually "Karen Theme", and that there are two different edits.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Jason Penick on July 28, 2012, 01:11:57 AM
double post, sorry.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Amanda Hart on July 28, 2012, 09:20:59 AM
Well according to this acetate, at least we can tell that it was recorded at Western.

http://entertainment.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=647&lotNo=22192#250250995 (http://entertainment.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=647&lotNo=22192#250250995)

Looks as though the proper title is actually "Karen Theme", and that there are two different edits.

AFAIK, one edit is a fully realized, traditionally structured song, and the other is the edit used for the show opening.

I didn't know that Jack Marshall was a producer at Capitol, so that helps. I'm going to find more information about him and see if that leads anywhere.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on July 28, 2012, 10:55:51 AM
Brian did not produce "Karen". Sound like a 1964 BW production... or even a 1963 one ?


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: JanBerryFarm on July 29, 2012, 10:15:13 AM
Brian did not produce "Karen". Sound like a 1964 BW production... or even a 1963 one ?

That's obviously the result of some exhaustive in-depth research.  :lol


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: guitarfool2002 on July 29, 2012, 10:36:21 AM
Well according to this acetate, at least we can tell that it was recorded at Western.

http://entertainment.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=647&lotNo=22192#250250995 (http://entertainment.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=647&lotNo=22192#250250995)

Looks as though the proper title is actually "Karen Theme", and that there are two different edits.

AFAIK, one edit is a fully realized, traditionally structured song, and the other is the edit used for the show opening.

I didn't know that Jack Marshall was a producer at Capitol, so that helps. I'm going to find more information about him and see if that leads anywhere.

Jack Marshall was one of *the* pop/jazz producers at Capitol during this time having built up his resume through the 50's as a composer and jazz guitarist with a handful of solo albums and production credits on hits like "Fever" by Peggy lee (although Jack's contributions to that specific song are still in doubt...).

As far as television theme songs, around this same time he wrote the theme for The Munsters...featuring Howard Roberts on guitar...and wrote some of the incidental music for that show as well. Everyone knows the Munsters theme even though it's instrumental. :) So his cache as a composer for television was pretty high in the mid 60's.

Just a quick background: Jack Marshall was an excellent guitarist and brought musicians like Howard Roberts into the spotlight through Capitol, and into both session work and success as a solo artist or act. Howard Roberts' albums on Capitol which he made with Jack producing in the 60's, specifically "HR Is A Dirty Guitar Player" and "Color Him Funky" from the early 60's are terrific jazz guitar albums which have something of a rabid cult following among guitarists (myself included). The sound of those records is absolutely amazing, recorded at Capitol.

Put it all together, maybe Jack Marshall as writer and producer wanted one of the hotter bands for the teen market on this "Karen" theme song squarely aimed at that teen market, and apart from The Beatles his go-to band would have been the Beach Boys. If it sounds like a Brian production, than it might have been. If it doesn't sound like Brian, then they were working for Jack Marshall as the band. I think there is no doubt at this point who actually composed the song.



Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Aegir on July 29, 2012, 11:55:35 AM
This song sounds like it was designed for the Beach Boys to sing. The Surfaris version sounds like a Beach Boys cover.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Amanda Hart on July 29, 2012, 02:52:36 PM

Put it all together, maybe Jack Marshall as writer and producer wanted one of the hotter bands for the teen market on this "Karen" theme song squarely aimed at that teen market, and apart from The Beatles his go-to band would have been the Beach Boys. If it sounds like a Brian production, than it might have been. If it doesn't sound like Brian, then they were working for Jack Marshall as the band. I think there is no doubt at this point who actually composed the song.

Thanks for the info, all the background information confirms what I was able to find with a little more sleuthing this weekend. I did find hard evidence that he produced the Munsters theme and many other TV songs, so I gotta think he did Karen too. There's absolutely no doubt that he composed it, it's listed in the BMI database, under both "Karen" and "Karen's Theme": http://repertoire.bmi.com/title.asp?blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=True&keyID=793369&ShowNbr=0&ShowSeqNbr=0&querytype=WorkID

With everything in mind, I'm pretty sure Marshall produced this track. All signs point in that direction, I was just hoping for some definitive proof.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Jason Penick on July 30, 2012, 12:16:02 AM

Just a quick background: Jack Marshall was an excellent guitarist and brought musicians like Howard Roberts into the spotlight through Capitol, and into both session work and success as a solo artist or act. Howard Roberts' albums on Capitol which he made with Jack producing in the 60's, specifically "HR Is A Dirty Guitar Player" and "Color Him Funky" from the early 60's are terrific jazz guitar albums which have something of a rabid cult following among guitarists (myself included). The sound of those records is absolutely amazing, recorded at Capitol.


Howard Roberts is a boss guitarist, and jammed quite a bit with both Barney Kessel and Chico Hamilton. A-list credentials right there.

Back to the topic at hand though; now I'm starting to wonder if the leaked version of "Karen Theme" we've all heard is the edit, and that there's a full length version out there with BB vocals.

Does anyone know what became of that acetate?


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on July 30, 2012, 04:08:47 AM
Does anyone know what became of that acetate?

Yup.  ;)


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Jason Penick on July 30, 2012, 09:09:45 AM
Does anyone know what became of that acetate?

Yup.  ;)

Cheeky!  :-D

Care to comment on my last postulation? (That the edited version of "Karen" on the acetate is the one familiar to fans, and that there is a full length version on the other side.)


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: guitarfool2002 on July 30, 2012, 09:18:28 AM

Just a quick background: Jack Marshall was an excellent guitarist and brought musicians like Howard Roberts into the spotlight through Capitol, and into both session work and success as a solo artist or act. Howard Roberts' albums on Capitol which he made with Jack producing in the 60's, specifically "HR Is A Dirty Guitar Player" and "Color Him Funky" from the early 60's are terrific jazz guitar albums which have something of a rabid cult following among guitarists (myself included). The sound of those records is absolutely amazing, recorded at Capitol.


Howard Roberts is a boss guitarist, and jammed quite a bit with both Barney Kessel and Chico Hamilton. A-list credentials right there.

He also founded what is now called Guitar Institute of Technology, which branched into various Bass, Musicians...etc institutes. It's the go-to school for modern music instruction on the West Coast. Howard's legacy as a teacher, instructor, lecturer, etc. is as great among guitarists as his actual recordings! I described his appeal among guitarists as a rabid cult following, and that's the best I can use to describe it. Among guitarists of a certain mindset, he's among the elite. And when you go through his credits, all of those "anonymous" guitar parts on things like The Munsters theme, I'd guess nearly everyone of a certain age has liked his work without knowing it.



Some further info on the Karen acetate would indeed be nice  ;D . The only additional info I've ever seen on the show itself was a few promos of it from the network previews back in the day, it seems to have sunk pretty fast without syndication or repeats.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Zach95 on July 30, 2012, 10:16:40 AM

Just a quick background: Jack Marshall was an excellent guitarist and brought musicians like Howard Roberts into the spotlight through Capitol, and into both session work and success as a solo artist or act. Howard Roberts' albums on Capitol which he made with Jack producing in the 60's, specifically "HR Is A Dirty Guitar Player" and "Color Him Funky" from the early 60's are terrific jazz guitar albums which have something of a rabid cult following among guitarists (myself included). The sound of those records is absolutely amazing, recorded at Capitol.


Howard Roberts is a boss guitarist, and jammed quite a bit with both Barney Kessel and Chico Hamilton. A-list credentials right there.

He also founded what is now called Guitar Institute of Technology, which branched into various Bass, Musicians...etc institutes. It's the go-to school for modern music instruction on the West Coast. Howard's legacy as a teacher, instructor, lecturer, etc. is as great among guitarists as his actual recordings! I described his appeal among guitarists as a rabid cult following, and that's the best I can use to describe it. Among guitarists of a certain mindset, he's among the elite. And when you go through his credits, all of those "anonymous" guitar parts on things like The Munsters theme, I'd guess nearly everyone of a certain age has liked his work without knowing it.



Some further info on the Karen acetate would indeed be nice  ;D . The only additional info I've ever seen on the show itself was a few promos of it from the network previews back in the day, it seems to have sunk pretty fast without syndication or repeats.

At which Probyn Gregory attended.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: guitarfool2002 on July 30, 2012, 10:17:57 AM
Back to the show Karen, here's some more trivia, info, and factoids about the show for the archives:

- The show was produced by Kayro-Vue, part of Universal. Kayro-Vue also produced The Munsters at this same time, which Jack Marshall also wrote the theme song and parts of the score. Perhaps Jack Marshall was either under contract with or wrote music for Kayro-Vue as part of a deal they had.  Listening to incidental music from Karen, I also heard jazz guitar phrases which sounded an awful lot like Howard Roberts or Jack Marshall himself - that would make sense.

- The show ran for a little less than a year, from 10/64 to 8/65, and was broadcast Monday nights on NBC from 7:30 to 8 PM. Monday nights was seemingly a big night for "teen" shows in general. The year after Karen went off the schedule, NBC would fill the 7:30 Monday slot with a show called "The Monkees" in 1966.

- Bob Mosher is the co-writer of the song with Jack Marshall, but he was also the co-writer and co-producer of the show itself. It would seem Mosher *may have* written some lyrics for what he wanted the theme to say, tied in to the show, then handed it off to Marshall for the music. Mosher's writing credit and his role with the show itself would suggest a non-musical role in the song.

- Sources say the Karen show was one of a series of shows NBC had around a bigger concept called "90 Bristol Court", where the plots were loosely based around people living at that address...yet the TV listings I have list the show "Karen" as a standalone show, no mention of a larger concept or connection to a group of shows. If it were part of a rotating schedule of plots and characters that changed every week, it would be easy to see how it fell off the schedule. But I haven't seen enough to prove anything.

So here's some archival material:

Karen, the opening credits and theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iJXcOJ9VQ8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iJXcOJ9VQ8)

Karen, a few minutes of the actual show featuring original commercial breaks and sponsors. (The kind of 60's ads Don, Peggy, and the crew from Mad Men would be making in real life...):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK2eBjhuGvI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK2eBjhuGvI)

And the Karen closing credits, showing both the Beach Boys and Marshall's "official" credits:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY-zrCpHmQ8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY-zrCpHmQ8)

Also an original summer 1965 TV Guide listing from my collection, showing a Karen rerun listing on NBC 3 in Philly...and following Karen at 8PM was "The Man From UNCLE". Love 60's tv... :-D
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/karentvguide.jpg)


I hope that adds some info to the archives!


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Amanda Hart on July 30, 2012, 10:36:55 AM

- Sources say the Karen show was one of a series of shows NBC had around a bigger concept called "90 Bristol Court", where the plots were loosely based around people living at that address...yet the TV listings I have list the show "Karen" as a standalone show, no mention of a larger concept or connection to a group of shows. If it were part of a rotating schedule of plots and characters that changed every week, it would be easy to see how it fell off the schedule. But I haven't seen enough to prove anything.



Apparently all 2 hours of NBC's prime time programming on Monday night in the 1964 season were part of this "90 Bristol Court" concept. I found references to the shows being advertised that way, and this site shows ASCAP listings for Ninety Bristol Court Theme used to tie the shows together: http://www.classicthemes.com/50sTVThemes/themePages/90bristolCourt.html



Title: Re: Karen
Post by: guitarfool2002 on July 30, 2012, 10:59:11 AM
The "90 Bristol Court" concept must have fallen apart fast because by 1965 Karen was a standalone show and nothing around it was related to the concept, least of all "Man From UNCLE"... ;D  Perhaps the "Karen" portion of the story arc got the most positive response so they tried to spin it off into its own show and the other stories disappeared.

I wish I had more of those 60's TV Guides in my collection so it could be easily fact-checked, dated, and confirmed. They're the best reference for that sort of info.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on July 30, 2012, 11:44:07 AM
The Man from UNCLE wasn't living at 90 Bristol Court when he went home for the night?


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: JanBerryFarm on July 30, 2012, 01:38:44 PM
The show was under the wings of Mosher & Connolly, who, as some may recall, were the men behind the Leave It To Beaver show.
That being the case, I think we could have expected more in the way of overall production values.

Debbie Watson, who played Karen Scott, was described as the perky typical 60's girl. Frankly, she didn't do it for me. Nice figure and all, but to me she looked like a blend of Lesley Gore and Hayley Mills. I thought the mother was better looking, actually.

But hey...... it's about the Beach Boys, don'tcha know?

I've listened to it carefully. It doesn't sound like Dennis drumming. But the rest of it sounds fairly Beach Boys like.

Crummy show. Dopey song. ("hey! That's KAREN!)  ??? :p

what's not to like?

 :lol


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Jason Penick on July 31, 2012, 01:16:30 AM

Apparently all 2 hours of NBC's prime time programming on Monday night in the 1964 season were part of this "90 Bristol Court" concept. I found references to the shows being advertised that way, and this site shows ASCAP listings for Ninety Bristol Court Theme used to tie the shows together: http://www.classicthemes.com/50sTVThemes/themePages/90bristolCourt.html


Great info there. Cool to see that the two other show themes in the 90 Bristol Court block were written by Pete Rugalo and Lalo Shefrin, two of my all time favorite arrangers.

If I had to guess based on the time period, 90 Bristol Court might have been something of a response to the popular at the time Peyton Place or 77 Sunset Strip.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: MBE on July 31, 2012, 02:02:22 AM
I'm glad it came out on the TVT theme song va LP/CD


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: guitarfool2002 on July 31, 2012, 08:03:21 AM

Apparently all 2 hours of NBC's prime time programming on Monday night in the 1964 season were part of this "90 Bristol Court" concept. I found references to the shows being advertised that way, and this site shows ASCAP listings for Ninety Bristol Court Theme used to tie the shows together: http://www.classicthemes.com/50sTVThemes/themePages/90bristolCourt.html


Great info there. Cool to see that the two other show themes in the 90 Bristol Court block were written by Pete Rugalo and Lalo Shefrin, two of my all time favorite arrangers.

If I had to guess based on the time period, 90 Bristol Court might have been something of a response to the popular at the time Peyton Place or 77 Sunset Strip.

Keep in mind, this block programming idea was a short-lived failure. The only story to survive from the arc appeared to have been "Karen", and even that lasted less than a year (October 64 - Aug 65). The 90 minute, 3-episode arc idea was gone by the new year, January 1965 and only Karen survived.

That issue of TV Guide which I scanned was at the end of the show Karen's run, they were running repeat episodes until the new shows came out that fall.

It's kind of funny to think about the cultural earthquake which was cable and satellite TV, followed by digital and on-demand...up to the early 1980's many of us only had maybe 7 choices of what channels to watch on TV: 3 networks, maybe 2 PBS, and 2-3 UHF stations and that was it until cable came to the neighborhoods. You see these old TV Guides and listings and that handful of channels was it for choices.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: JohnMill on July 31, 2012, 05:52:09 PM
I've seen a few episodes of "Karen" and it was a poor man's "Patty Duke Show".  Nothing more, nothing less.  There weren't even enough episodes filmed I believe to warrant syndication on TVLAND although they did broadcast a few episodes decades ago I believe during one of their "Lunch Box Specials".  The clip that is on Youtube is kind of interesting for how Mary LaRoche and Richard Denning make reference to both "The Animals" and "The Beatles".  More proof positive that in 1964, Hollywood had no idea what to make of The British Invasion and where these musicians would take not only music but pop culture in the next few years. 

The old road was rapidly aging indeed.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Jason Penick on July 31, 2012, 10:17:32 PM

Keep in mind, this block programming idea was a short-lived failure. The only story to survive from the arc appeared to have been "Karen", and even that lasted less than a year (October 64 - Aug 65). The 90 minute, 3-episode arc idea was gone by the new year, January 1965 and only Karen survived.


This sort of thing survived at least into the 1990s though, with the spiritual descendents of these shows, Beverly Hills 90210 and Melrose Place. I remember a few crossover episodes where Niner princess Kelly was all hot for handyman Melrose Jake. Not a complete arc, but certainly influenced by it, no?


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: JohnMill on July 31, 2012, 10:34:38 PM

Keep in mind, this block programming idea was a short-lived failure. The only story to survive from the arc appeared to have been "Karen", and even that lasted less than a year (October 64 - Aug 65). The 90 minute, 3-episode arc idea was gone by the new year, January 1965 and only Karen survived.


This sort of thing survived at least into the 1990s though, with the spiritual descendents of these shows, Beverly Hills 90210 and Melrose Place. I remember a few crossover episodes where Niner princess Kelly was all hot for handyman Melrose Jake. Not a complete arc, but certainly influenced by it, no?

What you are describing was actually somewhat of a backdoor pilot for "Melrose Place".  MP was spun off of "Beverly Hills 90210" with Grant Show appearing in the final few episodes of S2 of BH90210 and Jennie Garth appearing in the first few episodes of MP to wrap up the arc and also to give the new show a bit of a rub since she was a far more established star than any of the MP cast at that point. 


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: guitarfool2002 on July 31, 2012, 10:48:10 PM

Keep in mind, this block programming idea was a short-lived failure. The only story to survive from the arc appeared to have been "Karen", and even that lasted less than a year (October 64 - Aug 65). The 90 minute, 3-episode arc idea was gone by the new year, January 1965 and only Karen survived.


This sort of thing survived at least into the 1990s though, with the spiritual descendents of these shows, Beverly Hills 90210 and Melrose Place. I remember a few crossover episodes where Niner princess Kelly was all hot for handyman Melrose Jake. Not a complete arc, but certainly influenced by it, no?

But those were only one-hour shows for the most part, and the plots moved at a faster pace between stories - more like the soap opera format which is still going strong! Even crossover episodes and plots which carry across several shows are definitely nothing new, but the concept of tying together three half-hour shows and expecting people to watch what amounted to three separate casts doing three separate stories seems a bit much to ask of an audience, even in '64, and especially on network TV. With that many characters and stories, some geared to the "teens" and others to older demographics, an audience is bound to care less about at least one of the three, yet you're invested in watching the full 90 minutes because you want to see what happened this week at that 90 Bristol Court place.

I also think sometime around 1964, curiously, was when the attention span of the average television viewer was determined to be much smaller than it had been for the "Golden Age" where people would plan their dinner around something like a Rod Serling screenplay and live performance, or the longer Vaudeville-style performance revues. It got so plotted out to the 30 and 60 minute formats, and that still is network TV. I'm very grateful to have AMC channel and DVR, I feel like that kind of original programming is close to what the true "Golden Age" was all about as far as well-written and acted dramas that do hold interest longer than a half-hour.

Maybe 90 minutes and three separate casts, sets, and plots each week was too much to ask an audience at that time?




Title: Re: Karen
Post by: Jason Penick on July 31, 2012, 10:57:22 PM

What you are describing was actually somewhat of a backdoor pilot for "Melrose Place".  MP was spun off of "Beverly Hills 90210" with Grant Show appearing in the final few episodes of S2 of BH90210 and Jennie Garth appearing in the first few episodes of MP to wrap up the arc and also to give the new show a bit of a rub since she was a far more established star than any of the MP cast at that point.  

Yes, that's exactly it. Thank you for jogging my memory.



But those were only one-hour shows for the most part, and the plots moved at a faster pace between stories - more like the soap opera format which is still going strong! Even crossover episodes and plots which carry across several shows are definitely nothing new, but the concept of tying together three half-hour shows and expecting people to watch what amounted to three separate casts doing three separate stories seems a bit much to ask of an audience, even in '64, and especially on network TV. With that many characters and stories, some geared to the "teens" and others to older demographics, an audience is bound to care less about at least one of the three, yet you're invested in watching the full 90 minutes because you want to see what happened this week at that 90 Bristol Court place.

I also think sometime around 1964, curiously, was when the attention span of the average television viewer was determined to be much smaller than it had been for the "Golden Age" where people would plan their dinner around something like a Rod Serling screenplay and live performance, or the longer Vaudeville-style performance revues. It got so plotted out to the 30 and 60 minute formats, and that still is network TV. I'm very grateful to have AMC channel and DVR, I feel like that kind of original programming is close to what the true "Golden Age" was all about as far as well-written and acted dramas that do hold interest longer than a half-hour.

Maybe 90 minutes and three separate casts, sets, and plots each week was too much to ask an audience at that time?


Yeah, it could be that they just weren't very compelling shows either.

It's funny, but for series that was a long running hit, Peyton Place never seems to appear in syndication. My only experience with that show was watching a few pre-Monkees Micky Dolenz guest appearances on YouTube. Seems like the kind of thing I would dig watching from a nostalgia perspective if I could find it on DVD.


Title: Re: Karen
Post by: guitarfool2002 on July 31, 2012, 11:12:47 PM

Yeah, it could be that they just weren't very compelling shows either.

It's funny, but for series that was a long running hit, Peyton Place never seems to appear in syndication. My only experience with that show was watching a few pre-Monkees Micky Dolenz guest appearances on YouTube. Seems like the kind of thing I would dig watching from a nostalgia perspective if I could find it on DVD.

There are several shows like that which for whatever reason (contractual? Royalties?) are simply not available to watch. For another Monkees connection, how about "The Farmer's Daughter"? That was on for a few years, same time as Karen and all of this, the lead actress won an Emmy for the show, but what totally blew my mind was seeing the young pre-Monkee Davy Jones on the show singing "Gonna Buy Me A Dog"...it put a new twist on the Monkees story for me! Then to realize the Monkees screentests were shot on the Farmer's Daughter set...I had never seen that show anywhere, and apart from YouTube clips I still haven't seen much of it.