The Smiley Smile Message Board

What do you think would have became of the boys if Brian were never involved from the beginning? Say he went after that football career. Obviously, they're all full of talent, and could have succeeded without him. Albeit, differently, but still groundbreaking. Do you see them taking the same direction as they did? Do you see Carl or Dennis stepping up to fill what would be Brian's role? What kind of material would you expect hearing from them?

I'm not knocking the obvious talent of the other guys, but without Brian I doubt they ever would have been much at all.  Maybe a small footnote in the history of pop music, a few minor hits, local hits, etc. 

Without BW writing and arranging the music from the get-go, how could they have anywhere near the same kind of career?

First off, I don't for one minute think this would have happened at all without BW.

First off, there'd never have been any Jardine involvement -  he only came on board after he and Brian met at school (or was it "collided on the football pitch".

Second, at that stage Dennis had little interest and without BW's harmony arrangements would likely never have been shoed-in by Audree.

With Dennis and Brian, Carl & Dave might have had those guitar lessons and worked out a band together but cousin Mike was older, had a pregnant girlfriend to care for and likely wouldn't have even considered music without Brian's influence.

So, that leaves David & Carl. Maybe they would have made it together, but I doubt they'd've been called the Beach Boys. Maybe the Marksmen would've got going earlier, with a different line-up.  But that's only if Murry allowed Carl to play out with Dave… and Carl wasn't one to disobey…

I think 'groundbreaking' is the right word here.. the BBs without Brian would have been another nice surf rock band, and maybe something else later on, but they would never have been 'groundbreaking'. Remember: no Brian, no almagamation of jazz-influenced harmonies and Chuck Berry to begin with, no constant pursuit of new musical heights, no songwriting partnerships à la BW/User, BW/Christian & BW/Love - thus, 90% of their early material wouldn't even have existed. It would merely have been a bunch of motivated, unfocused young guys. And while they may all have been talented deep down, in reality it took them years and a lot of inspiration through Brian (and watching him at work) to develop their own skills.

Do you guys think Carl or Dennis would have taken more of the "leader" role? Maybe split it evenly? What would a record sound like with those two splitting everything 50/50?

In the early 60s you mean? Carl was still a kid, and Dennis as a band member was always the exact antithesis of a 'leader'. Plus, neither of them had yet developed a confidence in their own musical skills (let alone even known those skills were there).
Without Brian, none of it would have been possible. To be fair, neither without Mike (although his importance to the band obviously was of another nature altogether).

I meant more in general.
Overall.

Brian is, and will always be, the "talent" that the boys needed.

Inconceivable. Especially in the beginning. They would never have materialized if Brian had not been "in the mix." There would have been no moment of conception. He was the catalyst, even if Dennis was the one who brought surfing to their attention. I don't see Dennis or Carl starting a group in his absence. Mike didn't bond with those two initially, he bonded with Brian--so the chances of that troika kicking things off are in low single-digit percentages, I suspect. (Like maybe 1-2%.)

It was only a what if.
I understand that it almost certainly wouldn't have happened. In a perfect storm of the impossible, what if? That's all I was wondering.
I didn't think everyone would take it so literally.

I can't imagine anyone besides Carl (and perhaps Dave Marks) having a career in music independent from Brian's catalyzing influence, and he probably would have been a side guy in a band somewhere.  Interesting to imagine, though, where he might have wound up....starting out as second guitar in a surf band, drifting into the '60s L.A. music world...but then, trying to visualize that, I have the same problem with this that I had with watching "Grace Of My Heart"...Brian changed the face of popular music.  Take him out of the equation, and you're in alternate universe land.  You might as well be on Neptune.  Impossible to imagine.

Don't forget, Carl was a great singer. One of the greatest ever. World class. I think he would have been noticed in the late 60's. Brian is a giant, but especially the Wilson brothers are massively talented in their own right, and many lesser talents built solid careers, with no genius big brothers hanging around. So, I think we definitely would have heard from Carl, one way or another (if he had retained the spark for playing music). Maybe a member of some Byrds-type group, maybe a Harry Nilsson -type flower crooner.

You could turn the question on it's head and ask "Would Brian ever have made it in the music biz without The Beach Boys?"

Yes, see Pet Sounds.

But would he have been given the chance to make a record such as Pet Sounds in the first place if he wasn't already an established hitmaker through his work with The Beach Boys?

He'd have been some shy version of Spector working with a string of lyricists and session players... Rachel and the Revolvers times ten! Eventually I'm sure he'd have gotten a hit that way.

Maybe he would have hooked up with a band in college.

I think he'd have that spark he has with or without the Boys. I'm sure they helped. But on the other hand, studio musicians wouldn't question his creative direction. He may have finished Smile and then some. Maybe not.

Which the Beach Boys sing on.  Brian never worked with any acts who could sound like that or really sing very well at all, apart from Glen Campbell.  Gary Usher, the Honeys/American Spring, Rachel, etc.?  All terrible. 

Good point. I've sometimes wondered why he never produced any outside acts that were actually talented (aside from Glen... And I do love The Honeys/Spring). And the one time he tried (Redwood) he was shot down.

...them again, with his heyday "three albums per year" schedule, it's not that big a wonder he didn't do "serious" outside producing.

Yes, see the not especially successful in its day Pet Sounds which had the other guys' voices on it, anyway.

I'm not doubting Brian is a brilliant songwriter with or without the other guys, but would he have had the same success on his own? It's impossible to say, but I think a good argument could be made that no, he may not have had it.

To each his own.
I definitely think he could have.
That said, doesn't mean I'd like it better that way.

I don't understand the logic that Pet Sounds is a Brian Wilson album. The Beach Boys are all over it. He wrote it as a vehicle for them.
Now, if you said "Yes, see Caroline No", I might be able to get behind that. But still, he only got to "Caroline, No" based on the strength he'd had as a member of The Beach Boys.

It goes back to that old David Leaf inspired thinking that "Brian was a genius, the rest of the group just rode on his coattails".

Brian wanted to be Phil Spector.  He didn't want to be a member of a band (in my opinion, at least).  He wanted to be the guy behind the glass creating musical masterpieces for other artists.

The more important question is what would have happened without Brian at all.  What if there had only been two Wilson brothers?  The answer is not much.  Dennis would not have gotten involved in music...Carl may have messed about a bit...but nothing more than regional success and then a normal life (job/wife/kids/suburbs).

This thread made me think of the opposite: BRIAN WITHOUT THE BEACH BOYS.

What would Brian have done without family and close friends behind him in the group? Would he have been capable of sustaining any kind of carreer? How long would outsiders have tolerated his eccentrities, his personality, his health problems? Could he have survived the music business?  

I tend not to wonder about how the other guys would have fared in their carreers.

I think it depends on whether or not he could have evolved over time.  Initially, I think he could have found big success as a producer...but if he was unable to transition to the new sounds of the late 60s/early 70s he would have fallen off of the radar and maybe retired to his big mansion.  Look at Spector...he didn't see the writing on the wall and music left him behind.  If John Lennon hadn't pulled him out of obscurity he may have remained a relic of days gone past.  No matter what Brian may have done, however, I pray he would not have murdered anyone!

What would have happened had Murray kept both eyes???

Perhaps he would've gone by Murry without the a.  :p

Thank you both for making me laugh this morning!  A+

Elitists unite!

In other words, a big ol' pile of ape waste ^_^