The Smiley Smile Message Board

Is it just me, or is this board rapidly going downhill ?

I think our insular little community was disrupted a little by the reunion, and we got a lot of new members who haven't all gotten the hang of things yet. I just try and post a thread every once in a while to give some of the gearheads and obsessives something to chew on. I suggest you do the same if you don't like the direction things seem to be going in. I think it's better to try and set a good example than to just complain about the situation, no offence.

not sure it was a complaint, more an observation/question.

it's not just a 'newbie' thing ... it's almost as if there's so much activity, people have gone ADD. Sure, re-hashing 'basic' stuff that's been discussed endlessly is one thing, but really these 'What do you think of the song 409?' kind of threads seem to have taken over. Maybe a 'Hanging out and shootin the $hit' section is in order. These are technically 'on topic', but are they really? The signal-to-noise ratio is getting pretty bad. I'm about to bow out (again), and I noticed a bunch of other folks aren't posting anymore. And the 'honored guests' are dwindling. This, combined with the fact that you've got to have a thick skin to post, has made this place fairly uninviting.

I don't disagree with you, I haven't been posting much either recently. I think the board needs to be reorganized, the majority of the posting occurs in this forum while other forums like the general music discussion forum or the sandbox are so out of the way that they aren't very useful.
Maybe it would be better if things got restructured into a smaller number of subforums. One for discussion about current releases, appearances, interviews, that type of stuff. One just for discussion of past albums, and one that combined the sandbox, the media section, and the General Music Discussion forums.

Everybody knows the side of the mouth thing is because this board has had a stroke.

 ::)

So his good ear can hear the words :smokin

His mouth is fine. Its just the angle of the rest of his body is out of whack!

Now that it has been brought up ... why does he sing out of the side of his mouth?

Are there statistics available to show that the amount of members of the board increased following the reuinion announcement?
I got my account last summer I think, but I was watching this board for two years before that.

approximately 240 members have joined the board since the reunion announcement (I don't know the exact date).

He was trying to copy Animal Collective

He's been doing it since the mid 60's. Might have been something to do with his bad hear (or his good ear). But really nobody knows.

A lot of people assume Brian has had a stroke. While that may or may not be the case (personally I think it's BS) there exists lots of footage of Brian singing out of the side of his mouth going way back to the early days of the band....so that idiosyncrasy has nothing to do with a stroke (real or imagined).

Most likely genetics. Audree was known to do it, as well.

I've always assumed he did it because of his hearing.  You can definitely see him doing it very early on.

Ummm...you guys know that the original poster did not start this thread to find out why Brian sings out of the side of his mouth, right?

We know, but if you Title it, then they will come. Plus, why on earth would we comment on our own bad or boring behavior? DonnyL should just take it upon himself to filter the board. There are some crap threads in here, but they are infinitely better than those on the bloo. Also, it's better than a dead board and no one conversing at all. :)

I've also noticed a significant deterioration in the general quality of posts and thread topics on this board. Granted that's a subjective assessment, but I guess I'm not alone in my observation. There's a few specific things that seem to have proliferated...one is people who forget to use the search engine before they pose a question or topic, and therefore crowd the thread topics with entry-level questions about well-worn subjects. Another are people who post the "have you ever heard this?...or..."have you ever seen this?' And it ends up being something with 35,627 views on Youtube, or something that's been booted for 15 years. I go away shaking my head wondering how you can have hundreds of posts on a BB's message board but not have seen or heard these things that would seem essential to understanding the topic you are so interested in, and that are so easy to access. But for every shake of my head there are people who join in agreeing, "wow I've never seen that!" Or, "gee I've never heard of that"...which just makes me wonder do people just like to jabber on here, and are not really interested in digging and learning and gaining perspective from the myriad of sources at our fingertips. It just seems like there's a new wave of posters with a new approach...ask questions first, and make independent efforts to actually find the answers yourself a last resort. And then there are the unfortunate topics that seem to take up about half of the board now. Wow!  :ahh But again that's subjective, and like many of you i just don't read things that seem uninteresting. But you gotta admit that some of these topics are pretty dang shallow. Now don't get me wrong, i loves me this board. I even said so in print in my last book, so there... its on the record. But since others are noticing perhaps a 15 Big Ones-esque reduction in quality control around here, i thought I'd add my two cents, which I know stands a good chance of getting flamed by one of our resident concern trolls. Bottom Line...More people reading and participating in the board is a good sign. The Beach Boys fan base has expanded. Every year I get a little grumpier.

True that, Jon. Also, way too much rehashing of the myths as facts around here. There is enough of that already on the Internet. No need to keep perpetuating it here, as well.

I think Dennis put it best, so I'll paraphrase him a bit.

"Everything that they are or will ever be is in the music. If you want to know them, just listen."

Regular visitors have complained about this board going downhill for years. There is periodic turnover of a significant proportion of the posters, so you regularly get a nearly new board.

More recently, the reunion has brought back some older posters and swirled in many new ones, so it's made for an uneasy mix at times. I'm mainly bothered by the topic churn. Lots of good stuff has been lost.

I think once the tour is over, you'll see general activity go down again.  I've already noticed that a few newbie posters that were regulars on this board, immediately stopped posting once they attended their shows.  Perhaps they reached their Beach Boys "climax" and felt they don't really  need the board anymore?  I suppose that would be something to look forward to for those on this board who are irked by all the newbie posts. 

As with any online community, it can be tough to mix new members with long-standing members consdiering there will almost always be a clash.  The events in the last year from the TSS, to the new album/tour have brought on a new wave of fans to come here and celebrate the band---myself included.  But from what I've seen on other boards online, it always moves in waves (no pun intended!).  It goes up and down and eventually the waters begin to calm and things slowly get back to "normal."  I'm still relatively "new" here and I also can get a little peeved by a few random posts here and there but I suppose the only thing you can do is just practice a tiny bit more patience and simply not participate in the posts that bother you and move on to the ones that stimulate you positively.

Justin, you are a fairly new guy in here that I am grateful showed up. You are smart , concise and you stay on topic. Also, a big thanks for tracking all 51 U.S. Reunion shows.

I love this board but it's without a doubt the most unfriendly board towards newbies I've ever experienced..

I think BB's fans have a low tolerance or something  :lol

That is very kind, Doc..thank you for the kind words! You're defintiely one of the good guys 'round here!

Yup. A BIG "+1" from me on that one.

Actually Slim, I've noticed that all the boards online that are most respected and the most esteemed, yes, are the ones that are tougher for the newbie.  Smiley Smile is no exception.  I'm on a few other boards that happen to be also labeled "the best" for their respective bands and it can be no picnic for the new folks.  I sympathize with the OP of this thread because I feel the same way in another board I'm on where I've been there since the board's inception and I'm totally fed up with the "direction" the board is taking.  So I totally get that POV.

It's not this board's fault per se, but a board is only labeled as "the best" because it implies that it is filled with very knowledgeable and serious folks who know their stuff!  And we're lucky that Smiley Smile is filled with them!  That may not be so easy for the newbie coming in still trying to learn the ropes but the general rule for any online community should be that the older "residents" of the board should be a little tolerant and simultaneously the newbies on the board should participate but still keep themselves in check while not rocking the boat too hard. 

Thank you Pixel!  I'm glad to be around some good peeps!

Correct.


end of story? probably not.  :lol

It's just a messageboard - anyone who comes here is inevitably very curious about the group, and I'd hate to get mean and turn them away because of that. If it's bothering you, I'd suggest taking a beat and, y'know, doing something else  ;D

I think also that there's a qualitative difference within Beach Boys fandom, in that so much of the accurate information about the band belongs to, for want of a better term, the oral tradition within fandom.

While there are *now* some factually accurate books about the band available, there are far more inaccurate ones. Someone starting out as, say, a Beatles fan will probably start by picking up the Lewisohn book and Revolution In The Head, and will get those *before* finding books by Geoffrey Giulliani or a similar hack. They won't be starting from a position of falsehood.

But if you go and look for books on the Beach Boys, the places most people will start are the Gaines book or Wouldn't It Be Nice or Badman or Look, Listen, Vibrate, Smile! -- those all *look* like authoritative sources in their different ways, especially since WIBN plagiarises so much of the Gaines book.

So until relatively recently, with the more accurate books, the *only* way to get any kind of a clue was to be a participant in the various online discussions. And the older books are still dominating the discourse. The result of this is that while newbies on most boards are clueless, newbies on Beach Boys boards may actually have negative clue, and need to be disabused of falsehoods before they can even begin starting to get an accurate idea...

"To everything, turn, turn, turn, there is a season, turn, turn, turn."

This board has had it's major ups and downs.  I'm not the longest running Beach Boys fan by a long ways, but there are not many of us left here that were original Smile Shop posters who have stayed on board.

There's always turn-over, and always going to be a give and take.  Sadly, we will likely never see Mark Linett and Alan Boyd posting here again.  The days of them adding their wisdom are gone.  Desper may never be a real presence again.  These things happen, and thankfully most of the best stuff has been archived.

That's just the nature of life.  People's interest levels come and go.  I never went seriously to the Record Room break-off board because they like other pop music besides the Beach Boys.  I don't.

We're a narrow-interest board here.  By and large, we are the most educated group of Beach Boys fans out there.  Anybody coming on-board has a steep learning curve. 

It is what it is.  Don't "bow out."  My posting activity waxes and wanes, but not by design.  I go where the interesting topics are.  Someday, we will run out of things to talk about.  When that day comes, we'll know that it's time to throw in the towel, I think.

easy enough for me to get lost, but I'm speaking for more than just myself. And the collective wealth of knowledge (potentially the ultimate Beach Boys info database) that is getting watered down and threatening extinction is also being lost ... assuming you're cool with that, carry on.

for the record, I'm not opposed to 'newbie' questions -- sometimes they're really on point and kick-start a fresh conversation. the problem is the nature of the topics. It also shows a lack of respect for the credibility of this board to mindlessly post question after question, survey after survey on whatever whim you have at that moment. There is a place for it ... I would argue it's not really 'on topic' in a sense.

But there is a problem when 8 out of 10 topics are mostly drivel and noise.

Yes, I don't agree that this is 'just a message board' -- that attitude is part of the problem. I see it as a legitimate database of information. And I try to add anything that I can to that, not just flap my wings and try to sing the loudest.

I am a "newbie" to this forum.  Chasing young kids around the house consumes most of my freetime...so I was completely unaware of this group until it was brought up in discussion with another fan at one of the reunion shows.  I immediately decided I needed to check it out and sign up.  I'm by no means the world's biggest expert on the group, but I like to think I know quite a bit more than the "average" fan.  I was bit by the bug at a fairly early age and my interest in the band had only grown with every year that passes.  I've actually found the forum to be fairly welcoming (maybe I haven't asked a dumb enough question, yet) and I look forward to being around for awhile.  I agree that there probably was a bump when the band emerged back into the public's eye...and yes...you are going to get some casual fans who ask what we consider "dumb" questions...but as another poster noted...it's good that more people are taking an interest (even a casual interest) in the band.

Concur.

And yes there might be a few rogue posters but this is still the Number One board for me… still learning plenty.  Unfortunately I don't always take in/retain/absorb things as fast or as permanently as I should… That means I'm probably the least-well informed of all the remaining Smile Shop inhabitants, and have been responsible for my own fair share of cruddy posts.

But what the heck, this is a fine place to be.

Perhaps it's just a sign of the times in any case.

Still, it's so sad to watch a sweet thing die.

Oh Caroline, why?

(someone had to do it...)

"But there is a problem when 8 out of 10 topics are mostly drivel and noise."

Total BS

You're expecting too much from the board, not every topic is going to be gold..

If a thread doesn't interest you just avoid it because there's a good chance it's benefiting somebody else

I don't think this board is dying at all. I post pretty infrequently, but I've been reading regularly since 2006 and I agree that there has been a different feeling over the last few months. I think it just comes down to a lot of new people coming on with all the excitement first around TSS, then all the 50th stuff. Things will likely revert back to the way they were, as either these new people start to drop off or become more educated on the band as they explore here. The only real problem is when people treat each other badly and scare off good posters. I mean, I kind of agree that some of the inane questions that a quick search or minimal reading could answer are tiresome, but everybody has to start somewhere.

I think we need to acknowledge the elephant in the room which is that most of the stupid threads are started by Newguy.

Beware! I have learned Newguy has some staunch support 'round here.  :angel:

You just have to be selective in what you open.  I also disagree that it's quite as bad as 8 out of every 10 topics are drivel, but here's my formula, and it's kept me around these parts for something like ten-plus years:

1.  Open the obviously cool topics right away.  Example:  "Holy sh*t!  I found a photo of the booth showing both guitarists playing the Intro to Wouldn't It Be Nice."

2.  Rely on people you know to point you to hidden topics, either in other threads or in PM.

3.  If a topic looks marginal, see if it makes it to 3 or 4 pages, and then check the last page.

4.  If a topic looks dumb, check the author.  If it's somebody you don't especially enjoy reading, don't open the thread.  If the thread makes it to 8 pages or something, maybe check it out.

5.  If the topic looks dumb, but the author is definitely not, give the author the benefit of the doubt, particularly if it has made it to two pages.  Example:  "Why does Brian sing out of the side of his mouth?" by DonnyL

6.  Sometimes you're in the mood for some silly stuff, so you open a thread you know will be dubious and just get into it.

The thing is, this board has always been hit or miss ... with most threads somewhere between 'drivel' and 'gold' (sometimes both!) ... yeh, that sort of comes with the territory of a message board.

Ignoring the increases in 'misses' and decrease in 'hits', my main concern is that anything resembling a valid, intelligent thread fades far too quickly, with the same 10 or so posters really uncovering more questions than answers, and little real, legitimate info coming forth before the thread fades into obscurity.

I would love to see a 'scholarly topics' or 'serious discussion' (whatever you want to name it ... don't want to get too pretentious!) section. Perhaps something where you have to register with a real email address. and it's monitored for quality control. this would encourage more 'honored guests' to post without the noise. it would also be a place where normal, intelligent threads can remain relevant instead of being buried under, "what would happen if 'chug-a-lug' was on PET SOUNDS!?!?!".

Otherwise ... the writing is on the wall.

good advice.

I suppose my real concern is that this place has become more of a wasteland, and there are no real alternatives. so i feel like the kind of discussions that are worthy of an archive simply don't have an outlet to become fully realized anymore. i'm really more concerned about the greater good than my own personal reading enjoyment.

Your good intentions for the board are admirable, Donny! 

I think you and a few others here were so used to this board being a much "smaller" group during a time when there was almost nothing going on in the Beach Boys world; it was pretty quiet out there which in turn probably made it pretty quiet here on the board.  That, no doubt, allowed for many more serious topics to be flushed out without any of that surrounding "noise." With the mini avalanche of stuff like TSS and the reunion we've gotten, it's only to be expected that the best BB board on the net was going to react to all that.  Give it a few months and things will simmer down again.

I vote the "All Summer Long Is The Worst Beach Boys Album" thread as the most ridiculous thread topic I've seen on here, and that's saying something. BTW I like DonnyL's way of sliding this board deterioration topic in with a bit of irony...perfect subject line.

Sorry you have a problem with the fact that taste is subjective.

that's correct in a sense ... In my case, I've been off and on BB message boards for many many years (late '90s?), but have never really been a mega-poster anywhere. So, it's not really the 'community' element that's disturbing ... I was never really part of the community in the first place.

what i'm remembering is that a handful of people directly related to the BB world used to post here (and elsewhere) fairly often ... during that time, the topics tended to be more interesting, and the tone of the board was a lot more respectful.

this isn't directly related to the reunion ... certainly it's coming to a head as a result, but it started even before the Smile box and has been gradually building.

The basic point I'm making is: Many people here are not treating the board and it's members with respect. This is exemplified by the lack of tact, as well as the frivolous topics.

yeh, that one was particularly painful. that was posted at a time when i was playing the mono LP almost daily.

Do we really need a Pet Sounds Sucks thread on here, or a Surfs Up Is Brian's Weakest Song thread, or Carl Was A Horrible Vocalist thread? Really? You think that adds something to the discourse on the board? I have no problem with subjectivity, but I hate vandalism. IMO It just dumbs down the entire exchange of ideas.

No need. Giants are back in first place.

Nobody talks about how some of the long-time and even the "expert" posters on here can be rude and intimidating towards new-ish posters or even posters who have been on here for some time who state opinions that others don't happen to agree with, so a few start ganging up on that person.  That, to me, is more of a drag than people asking questions that other people think are stupid.  

No doubt. Good call.

Around here, you're only a hard-core FAN, if you have logged more posts  than the person you're trying to exercise brinksmanship on.

 :lol :lol :lol

Nobody? People talk about that constantly on here. Just check AGD's history.

YES!!!  :banana

I am one of those people that used to lurk and post on the old Smile Shop Forum quite regularly.  I took off when a couple fake dandy's called Old Rake and Old Bean came around harassing people, myself included.  Complaining to a mod did nothing because they were all buddies and it seemed like there was a decision made to just destroy the board.  It seemed to go away and so did I.  I joined the Hoffman Forums and have been happy there but when "The Smile Sessions' buzz started followed by news of a new album and tour, I started coming back here because the Hoffman Forums couldn't fill my Beach Boys void.  So I'm an old newbie...  recognizing some names but not many. 

I will say one thing to all the people here complaining about the threads being stupid: start your own.  Let's have an example of what you're talking about.  Lead by example and show us your brilliance.  I agree with the exaggerations provided of some of the bad thread titles, but nothing on the main page at the moment is all that bad.  One disappointment I have is that SMiLE discussion in its designated area never seemed to take off much.

I addressed that problem in this very thread:

Good call!

AGD might be less grumpy now he is getting some action!










( 2 gigs in the UK that is) ;)

and 'complaining about the threads being stupid' is really an oversimplification of the problems I'm attempting to point out.

Allow me to elaborate:

The archives of this forum are quite possibly the quintessential database of information on the Beach Boys. Often, when I am researching a topic of interest, this board comes up in the results ... often the only place where the information is available.

Treading through the endless murk to find the gold nuggets is one thing; the threat is that these 'stupid posts' are creating an environment where there is no longer relevant information being added to this historically significant database. If the well is dry, so be it ... but I don't think it is. I just think it's being stifled.

And yes, the 'honored guests' that remain are quite unruly at times -- you really do need a thick skin around here, which is why the ones left are the ones who aren't afraid to get into it. Trust me, AGD and I have gotten into heated 'discussions' on more than one occasion. But that doesn't change the fact that his presence demands respect, the information he has presented is unique to this forum, and he is one of the only people archiving this info for posterity.

nothing to do with 'newbie' status or the number of posts logged. a 'newbie' could very well come in and tell us exactly when and where the individual tracks from 'Pet Sounds' were mixed. It has to do with the content of the threads. Many of the 'threads that I skip' (we'll just call them that) are from old-time posters with thousands of notches in their belts. It's just a trend that's been going on for awhile. a lot of
very valuable members don't post anymore. the ones that do are preoccupied with reunion stuff (which is fine) and these 'what was Dennis' favorite color?' threads. I actually think 'newbie'/reunion-centric folks are actually influencing the 'culture'.  I'm not calling for people to stop having fun. I'm just looking for an alternative before 'fun' is the only option. Kind of like the blue board.

DonnyL, I can't help but feeling a lot of this is particularly personal with you, especially since you are making distinctions here that no one else is. And that's okay. But that nakes it less of a problem with the board, and more of just a problem with you. And I know, given our previous exchanges, that you're not particularly generous with respect toward others who don't share your very specific vision of the band.

Perhaps as a way to start weeding out the "strong vs weak" threads we should perhaps start opening up the "Honored Guests" section a bit more?  If members feel that a thread would benefit a more serious discussion then that topic could be brought to that section so as to invite the Honored Guests to join in also.  We already have that section separated out...why not use it more? There would have to be some sort of "gate keeper" to look after the area to make sure topics are suitable--otherwise that area would be flooded with more silly threads. 

Well, I saw the title of this thread and I started to wade through all the B.S. and got bored quickly and skipped most of the posts here. So if a conclusion has been reached already, please forgive me.

Anyway, Brian talking and singing out the side of his mouth is due to the following. Pick one:

1. Habit. He's talking/singing towards his good ear so he can hear better.
2. Heredity. Brian's mother Audree did the same thing.

I'll go with numero dos.

carry on then.

I don't give a sh*t about any of this.

I totally agree with this ^ post.

Lol you bores probably didn't like my old Does Mike Love Believe in Ghosts threads

Ha Ha Ha!  I went back and found this post and after reading the first line, I thought Banana was going to talk about the young posters on this board!  ;D

This is the most significant post on this thread. On any thread actually.

What is the worst thing for a message board? Inactivity. You sign on the board and you wanna read something new. New threads, new opinions, new anything. Like Slim Shady said, if the topic bores you or bothers you - don't read it.

Some boards would love to have the problem of too many newbies or too many questions or too many threads being started. Do you ever check the number of people on this board? It usually hovers around 100 Guests and 25-30 Users. Or more. Some other competing boards average like 5-6 Guests and 2-3 Users. How would you like to come on the board and see a couple of posts by the same 3-4 people every day....

Nah, the most significant post on this thread was this one.

There are different areas of the band that interest different people.  Some folks love the technical minutiae about mixing boards and tracking sessions, other people like talking about appreciating the music, and others are into the "people" type of aspect, such as band gossip.  This does seem to be a general interest type of fan board that encompasses all types of interests.  If a person isn't interested in a particular thread, then don't read it.  There aren't many Beach Boys' boards left compared to many years ago, when I first got into the band and would read a few from time to time.  When I first got into the band, there was even activity on the old Usenet forums.  In other words, you have to take what you can get. 

If people want better topics, then they need to take it upon themselves to start threads.  I could also advise resurrecting old threads, but the mania by some people to avoid so-called top-posting alienates other people who prefer not to read a thread that started five years ago and contains outdated information.  That is part of the reason why boards of this type wind up with so many threads, because people want fresh threads/topics.

Well, I was about to reiterate that I think you have to take it as it comes but as I was going to click on this to do so, I noticed two new threads had been started that are pretty ridiculous.

We did something at the old Weezer boards, similar to what Donny has suggested; we created a separate forum for very serious discussion that was heavily moderated.  I think I remember it working pretty well.  This was like, 12 years ago or something so memory fades.

The tone was more academic, and I remember some great discussions.

But for that to work, there would have to be a critical mass of people wanting such a thing.

Thanks Mikie.

I think that's the best hope for getting more 'honored guest' involvement, as well as the ease of archiving info for the ages.

I think Bort is on my side.

I'm with you, DonnyL. I wish every topic was about discussing The Beach Boys and their their works in an intelligent way. However, it comes down to who deems which threads are "intelligent" or "worthy". And who is to say what is good or not? So we run into a problem.

My thing is, I think once things settle down a bit things will get more interesting. Whenever a band has a new album, things get a little crazy. Add to this the fact that this is not just some band, but The Beach Boys, who just released SMiLE, followed by a newly recorded studio album, obviously things are gonna be a little crazy. However, I think the good will stick around and the lame ones will probably go away.

However, I gotta say that I do think the mods could think about taking action on dipsh*ts like NewGuy21242 who just posts stupid sh*t for the hell of it. It's obvious that this person is a troll.

An idea I think would be worthwhile, which I'm pretty sure runners mentioned before however, is a Beach Boys wiki. I know he and I are familiar with Weezerpedia, which is a great source for Weezer. And if we did something like that for The Beach Boys and their solo works, with a bunch of us contributing, it could contain a lot of the information that might get lost on here.

Is thread pretty much about newguy?  Odd kid, but its nice to see his enthusiasm to discovering new songs, but I think he should use that thread for questions more.

not my intention to single anyone out.

The more things are allowed to happen, those things will happen more.