The Smiley Smile Message Board

I posted this on another board and wanted to see the reaction here.
When The Beach Boys died is interesting. Some say 1967 but I totally disagree. The stuff I like best (even Brian's) comes from the 67-72 period. 1997 is technically when it happened but few would argue that their creativity had all but deserted them. . I think the creative death happened in three stages. The first strike came in 1975. The tour with Chicago was superb, but Dennis and Brian vocally nose-dived. To me what made The Beach Boys great were their harmonies. After the vocal decline began Beach Boys records never sounded as good. 1977 marked the decline of the live shows. As early as the 1-77 tour, all three of the Wilson's brothers performance was chemically affected, Carl cleaned up fast but as Brian and Dennis got worse so did the band. They did break up for a few weeks that year. In truth, they never again functioned as a collaborative group. After Charles Lloyd left in 1978 the setlist became a travesty. At least they were still recording regularly and did actually perform their new songs, but from 1981 on the studio was not a focus. This caused Carl to leave for about 18 months making for The Beach Boys worst shows up to that point. What When Carl returned in 1982 and Brian in 1983 they performed with a lot of enthusiasm. The shows weren’t great per se but it was only after Dennis passed away that I truly think The Beach Boys were truly over. It wasn’t as much Dennis’ recent drunken performances that were missed; it was more how his brothers reacted. Brian never was as comfortable working with the others again, and Carl became increasingly complacent. While their 1993 fall tour was great, there is very little post 83 to celebrate

I would say they died around 85ish or so, or just after "Getcha Back" came out, whenever time period that was.  Even without Dennis, and Brian's mental health, I'd say they still were a good representation of what the band once was.  In the next few years with Brian's solo stuff and the BB's capping their career with "Kokomo", they drastically changed the direction of the band and the propsects for future music from them.  So I'd say they died in the mid 80's.  "Getcha Back" was pure BB's gold, though. 

December 28, 1983, for me- plain and simple.  In other words, I agree with you, MBE.  But it's a subjective question.

I think the BB85 album, regardless of how you feel about the quality of music on it, was the last gasp from the real Beach Boys. It is the last time where they felt like an actual band . From Kokomo onwards, it was the Mike Love show.

The Beach Boys are immortal.  They'll never die.

1974

Endless Summer

I like that.

I think I'll have to agree! :thewilsons

Very interesting answers. You know Brian was around more in 84-5 and I have seen 3 TV shows from around that time where they (even Brian) sound great. They do Their Hearts on one, and Graduation Day on another. If the 1985 LP had not had such a poor producer, and such mediocre songs (save Getcha Back) maybe they would have been able to forge a new collective sound. I think 1985 and 1995 offered them a chance to have life beyond Dennis but they blew it both times. So I have to stick to 1983. I am glad this subject creates so much intelligent commentary.

The Beach Boys have always been their own worst enemy.

"The Beach Boys have always been their own worst enemy"
I agree. Your 1974 date is pretty valid. To me that marks the start of a real decline, but  I see the end as a gradual decay over the next decade.

I must be a real wimp, because I agree with every damn one of these answers.  They died more times than Kathy Bates at the end of "Misery"...and I'll throw in May of 1967.

1998, with the passing of you know who...

I would think any date before their biggest #1 hit in 1988 would be off the table by definition and it's hard for me to consider a band dead that still sells enough albums each year to put it on a Billboard chart while the majority of the members are still alive.  I would say they are only between new music albums [hopefully] but I also agree with "H".

Edit: I guess anything before 1995 would be off the table, anyway....  Maybe the thread should be retitled, "When did you quit liking the Beach Boys' new albums"?

I guess you could say they're still alive, but their life-flame has been seriously flickering for many years now.

Søren

February 6, 1998.

Since then it's been kind of like Weekend At Bernie's.

However, they got there - hasn't The Beatles' early 'death' as a group been one of the best things for their status and legacy in the long run?   As the old show business adage has it:  "Always leave 'em wanting more!"  As with any death you've got to learn to let go.  Of course, the great music of The Beach Boys will always live on (as much as any other 'rock' act of the last 50 years anyway).

I agree.

I'd say they ended either with Dennis' or Carl's death.

I agree with this post.  Excellent analysis.


Interesting.  I agree that Levine was the wrong producer for the '85 album, and I would have to say that for the first time ever Carl really mailed it in that time.  However, for my money there are still a couple of magical Brian songs on '85 -- "Crack at Your Love," "I'm So Lonely," and "Male Ego."  After '85 Brian was never again a Beach Boy.  And without Brian Wilson, the Beach Boys simply do not exist (much as I love the others, even Mike).


Absolutely true, and I second the sentiment.  However, one could also say the same thing about the Beatles, and no one would dispute that as a functioning, presently existing group, the Beatles died in 1970.  As for the Beach Boys, I think they "died" in that sense in 1985.  And I for one am sure glad they lasted 15 years longer than the Fab Four, because they gave us some absolutely extraordinary music in those 15 years. 

Oh, absolutely. Dying young is great for your PR. That's why James Dean in more popular than Marlon Brando, why Marilyn Monroe is more popular than Brigitte Bardot, why John Lennon is more popular than Paul McCartney...

If the Beach Boys would've called it quits in 1967, their current reputation would no doubt have been much better.

it ended when they thought putting a Culture Club outtake on an album was a good idea

You could say that the Beatles as a functioning group died in 1968, but that's another story. To me, the Beach Boys represent, in a way, a geographical area and a lifestyle. The Beatles represent the four personalities contained therein. The Beach Boys touring today still mean something, I think. Once John was gone, like on the anthology, I recall hearing the rest described not as the Beatles, but as the 'Remaining' Beatles.

Too many points in the group's history which could all equally be interpreted as the death of the group. I'd say that when Brian Wilson dies it's time to stop touring his music so like they do. After that their should be huge tribute concerts, with a vast set list of all the lesser known songs.

All interesting and correct answers earlier in this thread.  The Beach Boys in my mind have died multiple deaths.

1961 when they took the name "The Beach Boys".  The name of the band reinforces their stereotype as a fun-n-sun band
1967 with the non-release of SMiLE and the start of Brian's decline
1974 with Endless Summer
1983 with the premature death of Denny (tho honestly can you picture a 60 year old Dennis?  I can't...)

and of course the nail in the coffin so to speak was February 6, 1998   :(  :(  :(

Then there is the Mike and Bruce Endless Sounds of Summer Travelling Jukebox show which refuses to die!!   ;D

There have been many versions of the Beach Boys. The group dies when nobody wants to or needs to use the name anymore, or when the name ceases to mean anything.

I'd say the first version of the group died the minute Brian quit touring with them (the first time around).

"1961 when they took the name "The Beach Boys".  The name of the band reinforces their stereotype as a fun-n-sun band"

Aha!  This old chestnut rears its head once again.

Next thing you know someone will suggest that Jefferson Airplane wasn't entirely made up of former cabin crew personnel, that Seals and Crofts weren't cute Arctic Creatures, that the High Llamas aren't intoxicated alpacas or that the Raspberries weren't a bunch of fruits.

No, the real reason why the Beach Boys are perceived by the massess as a fun'n'sun band is because the bulk of their most popular and enduring songs (e.g. Surfin' USA, Fun Fun Fun, I Get Around, California Girls, Do It Again etc.) is themed accordingly.  Leaving aside the oddities that are Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, the typical broad-based festival audience (i.e. Glastonbury 2005) is most at ease with those time-honored hits from 1963-1966.

Even if the group was called Doctor Jeremy Simpson's Fetid Underpants, they'd still be characterised more by the great music that they made during that era than by the name per se.  It's the music that's the critical factor at play here.  Not the name.

We (that's us here on these boards) understand the bigger picture.  But we're the minority.

After 1985  :(

To me, this is the very problem with the fact that a group known as "the Beach Boys" is still out there touring.  If Ringo went on tour with George Martin and Billy Preston calling themselves the Beatles, that would be about the same thing.

If you can't have the Beatles without John Lennon, you certainly cannot have the Beach Boys without Brian Wilson.  And Dennis and Carl are at least as integral to the Beach Boys as George Harrison to the Beatles -- I would submit more so.  The idea of "The Beach Boys" existing now without the participation of a single Wilson brother is a desecration.

The Beach Boys, to me, do not primarily represent a geographical area and a lifestyle -- although that is admittedly one small aspect of what they represent.  What they truly represent is the beautiful music of Brian Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Carl Wilson, Al Jardine, Mike Love (and Bruce, Ricky, Blondie, VDP, et al.).  Brian is responsible for at least 2/3 of what the Beach Boys ever accomplished musically, and the group simply cannot exist without his active involvement, which ended in the mid-80s.

With Denny.

I think this is a meaningless question, because I tend to take things like this literally and the majority of the individual BBs are (thankfully) still among us.

Now if you want to ask me when they broke up, I'd hafta say 1998 -- with Carl's demise and Al's departure.

Cam, good to see you back here- your points are well made as always; agree and disagree. Wish you'd post more.

When did the The Beach Boys die? As far as I know, they're not dead yet. As a matter of fact, they're probably coming to a theater near you soon!

Now, if you ask the question - When WILL The Beach Boys die? -  the answer is simple. When Mike Love retires or dies. That's when The Beach Boys will die.

You may not like Mike Love, but he has become the "voice" of The Beach Boys. And you may reject the current configuration of The Beach Boys , but they are a functioning band. It might not be to the standards of the past, but they are still entertaining millions of people.

I'll admit that The Beach Boys are on life support, and regardless of what I just typed above about Mike, all it would take is for Brian Wilson to announce that he'd like to "get the guys back together and record another Beach Boys' album", and you'd be amazed how fast Brian, Mike, Al, Bruce, and maybe David could get together.

Lawsuits, what lawsuits...

Why did the Beach Boys die with Dennis Wilson? Even before his dead, they did a lot of shows without him and even made several albums that he had very little to do with.

Dennis looked 60 in his last few years. We've all seen the footage of Brian shouting "My brother DENNIS!!!!" and then RUNNING off the stage with youth and speed in his step. Brian was THIN, animated, wild, youthful. Dennis looked old, sounded older than Father Time and could probably not run like Brian did. So sad to watch. Dennis' life was lived by the lyrics he sings in "Little Bird". He didn't worry about the bad things and lived with fun in his heart.

A world with no Beatle members alive, and no Beach Boys members alive will be a very strange world indeed.

Sheriff, you're my kind of guy.....if only I'm weren't married.....and hetero.....you too SJ.

You damn straight they would come runnin' but I can appreciate Brian still wanting some distance from something he might associate with his brother/s [if that's an issue for him].  I think it would be good to reconnect with his ol' pals and family; those relationships can get more important as they become scarcer, hopefully it will happen before it's too late.

Here is what I said on a similar thread elsewhere, with edits:
My problem with topics like this is we kick around issues which are fundamentally unknowable. It's what the author Umberto Eco calls "sublime recapitulation". While the fascination is certainly understandable, esp. if you're a fan and want to know all there is to know about the band, its members and its music, many of the critical events that get bashed about here (and the Grey Board, so to speak) went down some forty years ago. We surely know now that no one's memory is that good and some gaps will never be filled in. To pick two examples which have filled up a lot of server space, maybe it's equally true that Mike vented his spleen at Van Dyke Parks or what he disliked about "Smile" one day behind closed doors, then knuckled down and gave the material his all on another. (The man has been known to have a temper and to nurse a grudge or two).  For his part, Brian's emotional memory now to the day he dies is, as he says, that Mike hated "Smile". He may be wrong but you'll never shake it out of him, try and he'll go vacant on you.

As for what the show-goers know or care about, I think the fans know more than we give them credit for about the history, though they may not be into the minutiae like the posters here are. But they know what they're buying, they hear a good show, get what they want, so no one loses.

So that's why I tend to stay out of topics like this one. Except this time. And I'll probably be sorry I didn't keep my mouth shut.

1973

If it's going to happen it better be this decade. I mean do you think the Beach Boys will put out another album when they're in their 70's? Right now they're in their 60's, so they're already pushing it.

In the worlds of Brian Wilson and Mike Love, you NEVER know what's gonna happen - when , where, why, or how! But you're right, it would be better if it happens sooner than later.

I have no false illusions about this new Hallmark CD - it's motive is purely $$$$$ - but it's close to what I'd like to see happen. Have Mike contribute his one best song, same with Al, same with Bruce, same with David(?), choose two good oldies, and have Brian (with collaborator) fill in the remaining 6-7 songs.

Of course it's understood that you'd need an outstanding producer to unify the sound so it doesn't sound like a bunch of solo tracks under the guise of The Beach Boys.

It's happening, per Al Jardine:

http://www.therockradio.com/2006/04/beach-boys-planning-reunion-gig.html

Let's just hope it doesn't fall apart like it has so many times before.

Too good to be true personally.

Sorry- I'm slow on the uptake here, but I think any band dies when your fans care more about what you've already done than what you are currently doing and the band goes along with this. The purpose of the band shifts to become a jukebox in order to meet payroll rather than a creative entity.

When did this happen for the Beach Boys? For me, I would say around 1974 when they caved into nostalgia even though I'm not really a fan of much post '67 stuff. I think all the records after Endless Summer came out were largely phoned in and calculated to give a minor update to the "fun in the sun" deal. At least the first time around you could believe it, in the 70's it just felt hollow and a parody.

As usual, feel free to disagree...
Dean

I'm much less interested in a reunion than I am in anything that gets Dr. Tim and Cam to post more.  Speak up, guys!  Two much-needed voices on this board.

The Beach Boys died when David Leaf entered the picture.

The Beach Boys die when BRI says they are dead.

Well I got the new Hallmark CD.  Buy three cards and they give it to you cheap.  First ten songs are Mike & Bruce live, a pretty good representation of their more-or-less current live show ("Wouldn't It Be Nice" and the like).  A decent listen, but with a few clams here and there.   The solo cuts are a bit schizoid.  Brian's is the Gary Usher co-written  "The Spirit of Rock & Roll", it's a mid-temp rocker, OK but not spectactular, like a lot of GIOMH.  Al's "PT Cruiser" is a re-write of [insert name of favorite BB car song].  OK too, but obviously trying to sound retro.  Mike's "Cool Head and Warm Heart" starts out with an "Our Prayer"- like choral intro (not arranged by Mike), then turns into a soft ballad not unlike "Meant for You".  Shallow but pleasant.  If he can keep that going he may be on to something.  Maybe Chuck or someone can start a review thread on this CD...

Otherwise, as for the topic at hand, I refer the honourable gentlemen to the reply I gave some moments ago...

No, that's when they got acid reflux...

There's a difference between dead and "dead", man.
Are the Platters dead? They're still touring, you know.

Hmmmm?  Not following you, Ian my man.

Still touring is not the same thing as being "alive".

..and not touring is not the same thing as being "dead", soooooo.....Ian?

Interesting existential questions. What is a rock group? How do you define its spirit? When does it cease to exist? According to Cam Mott, the Beach Boys are alive and well. And yet, with 80 percent of the original band missing, including its two most valuable musical players and the one guy whose artistic, spiritual and musical vision is at the heart of virtually everything they did in their prime, what are they?

Let's say we're talking about the Beatles. John, Paul, George and Ringo. The Fab Four. That breathtaking combination of talents, personalities and abilities. Do they exist without the creative brilliance/tension sparked by John and Paul? Or the dry wit and spirituality of George? When Ringo sits in on drums for one of Paul's albums, are the Beatles back together again? And if those two guys decided to get back on the road together with a couple of other guys, would you go around telling your heirs, "Yes, I saw the Beatles perform"?

Or let's say Bill Wyman and Mick Taylor go out as the Rolling Stones. Still the world's greatest rock band? You might say that Pete Townshend and Roger Daltrey can do a better job as the Who -- Pete being the main composer and guitar player and Roger the lead singer. But compare them and their session guys to the Who in "The Kids Are Alright" and tell me you're seeing the same thing.

What you're seeing is an amazing simulation, plus also a corporate trademark. Which isn't to say the music isn't great, or that it's not performed well. But is it the actual band? I mean....really?

The Beatles died in 1960 when Tommy Moore quit.

Don't go in there, Ian.  It's a trap.  Cam will make you his bee-yotch. Just walk away. Don't do it!

When 'Carl And The Passions - So Tough' came out.

Interesting. Why do you think that?

A dissapointment after SURFS UP.
They were nothing like the Beach Boys, Holland was an improvement on certain tracks,California Saga was good.

But do you think that a "dissapointment" is enough to say the band died? I mean every band releases dissapointments at one point or another.



(btw I like So tough)

It's just my opinion. I remember waiting for it to be released back in 1972 thinking it would be another great album after Surfs Up only to find the band had changed their line up (news didn't travel so fast back then with fans as there was no internet) Bruce had left and with Blondie & ricky joining it only sounded half Beach Boys, apart from that I didn't go much on it.
The best time for the Beach Boy's music was the sixties, that is what they play mostly at live shows whether it's Mike & Bruce, Al or Brian.
My personal view is the best thing since the sixties is Brian's comeback in recent years with the band he has now.

Explain, please.

The Beach Boys died when David Leaf entered the picture.


Explain, please.

Does "Brian and the five assholes" ring a bell

You mean singling Brian out as the only talented one in the band and writing a book about how the other guys are jerks? You think that helped kill the band? No sarcasm in my question, I'm really asking.

Exactly. Brian is also a jerk and the others are also talented. Creating the myth that "one day Brian will be free from the parasites and will do the music he always wanted to do" helped kill the band.

It's funny in a way to assign such relevance or importance to pop music so as to make bands living beings themselves, and to distinguish somehow between their product as being alive or dead, important or unimportant, somehow philanthropic or parasitic. In some ways, I can see why many major artists such as John Lennon, Bob Dylan and Freddie Mercury at various times tried to remove their crosses from their backs, saying, "Hey, these are only pop songs. Don't make such a big deal about them--take them, listen to them, throw them away and wait for new ones." And in some ways, Brian did the same thing after Smile, of course.

I think that kind of pressure to "matter" is just too much to ask of an artist to knowingly live up to. We're the ones who make them--artists--be alive or dead. They, in some ways, just keep doing whatever it is they're trying to do, which is generally to make a living by making their music.

So when did the Beach Boys die? I suppose they've been losing limbs since about '66, but haven't quite died yet. After all, people still go to see the band called the Beach Boys, not to mention its former members on their projects.

But from my heart, and for my taste in music, they died with Dennis (after a decade-long, near paralyzing illness that began after Holland). From then on, there were good days (Love You) and bad (most of the rest of it).

Very Eloquent...Luther, You're the Top.