The Smiley Smile Message Board

Considering the fact they didn't play much of the music..write it and well... were an act ? Tork even went as far to say that the monkees were blackballed from the rock and roll hall of fame...
How do you feel about this? Do they deserve a spot?

The Beach Boys didn't play "much of the music" either.

The Monkees played as much of the music as your typical LA band of the day. "Got a session coming up? Call the Wrecking Crew!" The problem with the Monkees has always been was it a real band or not? I mean, sure, it started off as a television series ABOUT  a rock group, and records were made under that name to promote the series. But the records side of it became so big that the fake band had to go out on tour, and they became a real band. Toured the US, UK, Australia, Japan; played on their own records; wrote some of the songs on their albums; even produced some of their own sessions. IMHO the Monkees are deserving of many honors, but the RNR HOF is such a joke now, I don't really care if they ever get in. I also have very mixed feelings about the Baseball HOF waiting to induct Ron Santo AFTER HE DIED. I mean, they only had like 30 years to get the guy in.  ::)

Idk if that's a fair comparison. They did play a lot more than the Monkees did, for sure. But anyway, I think they should be. They're pretty well recognized as a legitimate band these days. A lot of pop stars in those days didn't write or perform the music part either, but there are tons of those in the HOF

Who cares. The "Rock and Roll" "Hall of Fame" is a fucking cultural wasteland. No-one starts a band thinking 'man, we're going to be so good, we'll be in the rrhof!' It's irrelevant. No-one cares about it in the real world.

It merely reflects the stilted, dull as f*** canon of rock music, which states that it started with Elvis, (whisper it) Chuck Berry, and Buddy Holly, died with him, then The Beatles arrived and everything was great until they split up, and everything else has been chasing that golden decade ever since. And then the dreaded hip-hop came and ruined everything. Just show some signs of 'authenticity' (ie, don't rap) and you're good to be inducted in the RRHOF after a few billion record sales and/or near universal critical acclaim so they can claim to represent 'real' music, not just what sells.

The Monkees kick ass. Especially the songs they didn't write or play on. Am I supposed to hate The Supremes because they didn't write their own songs? Piss on that, The Supremes are amazing. And so are The Monkees.

I need a smoke today, I think.

The topic of the so-called "Hall Of Fame" has been given a thorough going-over on this board at least three other times in the past year or so, I think the facts are out there for anyone to see what has happened with the process of getting bands inducted and totally ignoring others.

Newguy562, your enthusiasm for wanting to gather information and facts about this music is very cool - in this case, I'd recommend doing a few searches to find out some information about other situations related to Jann Wenner and the RnR HOF. Specifically, the Dave Clark Five, Chicago, and The Monkees.

Mike Nesmith actually posted a very detailed, and a very insightful response to your very question not long ago. You can't get much closer to a 'straight from the horse's mouth" situation than hearing the answer from an actual member of the Monkees.

If there is a lack of response here, I'd suggest it's from a feeling that the topic has been discussed so many times, there isn't much left to discuss. I'm betting that a majority of people who would answer the question would say, definitively, YES! The Monkees should be in the HOF. Just as many would say the entire HOF situation got so bogged down in politics, favoritism, personal grudges and biases, and the will of a few men versus the notion of inducting based on the merits of the music that it really is a moot point to debate much at all about the HOF in general.

I will suggest reconsidering your first point about the Monkees not playing "much of the music", because it isn't accurate and it is a bad stereotype that fans like me have tried for years to change.

Let me say this, then please look for yourself: They released four albums in the years 1966 and 1967. On the first two, their contributions were vocals, and close to all of the vocals save a few backgrounds were done by The Monkees. Then Mike produced and wrote and handful which made those albums as well. The backing musicians were hired musicians.

On the next two albums from '67, for Headquarters the band played probably 90% of the instrumental tracks, again almost all of the vocals except a few harmony parts handled by Chip Douglas, and on PAC&J, the band brought in a terrific yet semi-manic session drummer named Eddie Hoh, but also contributed what would probably add up to 65-70% of the instrumental tracks (Chip Douglas filling in the rest) which were not drum parts. It was a good balance between the band's performances and a few session guys (and Chip) to hold down the grooves and do parts the band simply couldn't do.

So the myth of them being like a Milli Vanilli kind of phony-fake deal should be destroyed, shattered, buried, etc. Don't believe that stuff. It's gotten better in the past 15 years or so, yet some people still - very upsetting to hear - react with "they didn't play their instruments" whenever The Monkees are mentioned.

Do your best to fix that!  ;D The real factor in all of it should be and is the music itself. The records credited to "The Monkees", in some cases, are terrific examples of 60's pop music. The music is what matters.

Right on! And the Supremes are awesome, too!

They should have been inducted long ago, but I agree with the sentiment expressed by others that the RRHF is a joke and irrelevant.    Many of the groups/performers back then didn't play on every session, and some not at all.  This still happens today I'd bet.  
Rock/pop music is about more than just music and/or performing said music.  Why else would Alan Freed be in the RRHF if that weren't so?   Back in the early eighties the Monkees were hailed as the progenitors of MTV, and while I don't know as I'd agree they invented the concept of music video, they certainly did a lot to develop it.   Mike Nesmith in particular (post Monkees).    Also both Tork and Nesmith were already actual musicians when they came to the project in '65. (Davey Jones as well for that matter - in my mind if you're a singer then you're a musician.  The voice is an instrument), and even the first few albums that had session players on them still included some amount of playing  by at least  Nesmith.  

I often thought of creating my own faux-hall of fame.  It would be as legitimate (or more so) as the actual one as far as I'm concerned.  So maybe that's something this board could do - start the Smiley Smile Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and include  all those who have been excluded.     :)

I don't give a flying rat's ass about the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, but I do love the Monkees. I was in 5th grade when they hit, and those first two LPs were an important bridge for me in the development of my musical sensibilities.  Great pop and garage ("I'm Not Your Stepping Stone"!).  They are at least as important as bands like Paul Revere and the Raiders, the Turtles, the Lovin' Spoonful, and maybe even the Young Rascals -- bands whose hits were a major part of what to me (and a lot of us) were the best years of the Rock era.  Bands that by no means were the Beatles, Beach Boys, or Stones, but along with the other biggies -- and the one or two hit wonders -- provided the soundtrack to a golden time.

Top Monkees Ten  -- Pleasant Valley Sunday, You Just May be the One, Valeri, Last Train to Clarksville, Porpoise Song, I'm Not Your Steppin' Stone, I'm a Believer, She, Mary Mary, For Pete's Sake, Daydream Believer...

Shoot, that was eleven, and I didn't even work up a sweat!

..and there's:  Salesman, Door Into Summer, Randy Scouse Git What Am I Doing Hanging Round, Circle Sky, Auntie Grizelda (sorry, but a personal fave - love how Tork goes psycho on this one  :P), (Look Out) Here Comes Tomorrow (really like Davey's vocal on this), Goin' Down (just plain awesome), Listen To The Band....and there's more.

I read (and no I do not recall where) that the Spoonful were actually initially asked to do the series which eventually became the Monkees.  I think they might have been great in that capacity too (cos the Monkees, especially Dolenz were funny).

The Girl I Knew Somewhere. I used to really like it, now I'll tell anyone who will listen that it's one of the best pop songs of the 60's, in my top 5 ever. A terrific song.

It's really just so tacky it's unbelievable. The whole thing has this really sleezy, exploitive veneer that I find absolutely nauseating.

The Monkees, Spoonful, Turtles, Byrds, Rascals, Raiders, that is really my favorite music of the 60's (along with BB's, Beatles, Dylan). Rock 'n' roll just didn't get any better than that!

The Monkees wrote a fair share of their own material, especially Mike Nesmith.  They also wrote more of their own material and played on a lot of it after the first two or three albums.

They played a bit more than you think, however!

I think you're missing the point. The point is that this is a silly criteria for evaluating whether one deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

But, yeah, I'm with hypehat.

Agreed!  I find it silly to take something as subjective as art and try to objectify it by determining who is and who is not worthy of being inducted into a hall of fame!  Remember that this whole mess was spearheaded by one Jann Wenner...who's 1967 hatchet job about the Beach Boys did a lot to trash their image! 

The whole thing is screwed up.  You can point to many examples for why the Rock & Roll hall of fame is a joke, and about anybody would agree.  Chubby Checker isn't in the hall of fame.  Ridiculous.  Laughable in my opinion. 

The whole idea of even having a rock and roll hall of fame is stupid.  The only reason hall of fames exist in any industry or sport is to make money for whomever owns the hall of fame.  It's something P.T. Barnum would have been down with.  They're not honoring anybody, if they were concerned about honoring those who founded Rock & Roll, guys like Chubby Checker would have been inducted years ago and they'd be on to the great artists from the 60's and 70's. 

Excellent post (as usual) GF, VERY well said.

I will point out that Eddie Hoh played on the first Flying Burrito Brothers album, the Gilded Palace of Sin.

And, I note that the FBB are not in the HOF, either!!!  :hat

What Hypehat said, times 1,000, or times one jillion.

I will paraphrase my favorite author, Céline, with this quote: "I pi$s on the HOF from an incredible height."

Many, many, many Monkees tunes are among the best pop music ever.  Period.  The end.  Case closed.

"Fast" Eddie Hoh played on a lot of recordings!  I remember reading some interesting stuff about him in the biography of the FBB that I read.  I like the idea of having a museum that collects and maintains items from rock history...but the idea of elevating certain artists over others is just silly.

There is also the "famous" letter sent by the Sex Pistols in response to their induction.  It sums it up pretty well.  If you've never read it...punch it into Google.  It's worth a look.

That's how I feel.  I don't see a problem with having a museum with Elvis' suit in it, or Jimi's guitar, or Brian's lyrics to "Surfer Girl"... or whatever.

... making a 'club' that Elvis/Jimi/Brian are members of and others aren't, though, is infuriating. 

To suggest that the Monkees aren't on par with some of the greatest pop music ever isn't even worth discussion.  By what criteria are they not outstanding?

Somehow, for some reason, specific information on Eddie Hoh is hard to find. I have been looking for as little as a good photo of him for some time, and have found nothing. He was definitely a part of that scene and that era, other folks from that scene remember him, his musical legacy is obviously on those sessions and hits like Pleasant Valley Sunday, yet there seems to be a general lack of info about the man himself.

I may be wrong, but the only modern reports I remember hearing were from someone on the Hollywood Hangover site, who posted in reply to other requests for information on his whereabouts. If I can find that discussion I'll update it here.

Judging by the Monkees tracks alone, he was one helluva drummer.

He's a hard person to pin down.  If I recall correctly, the FBB had problems with him and only used him on a handful of tracks...but they guy played on a TON of sessions.  From what I can gather he's suffered from mental illness issues...and in fact...there are those who maintain that he's dead and then there are those who claim to have seen him recently and that he still picks up the sticks now and then...but whatever the case...he's become a complete recluse.  The most recent info I've been able to dig up is that he lives in Chicago and is semi-homeless.  I've read that he was an acid casualty...and I've read that he was just mentally ill.  I think his odd behavior is what got him tossed by the FBB.  Apparently, he is looked after by relatives in the area but in general is in very poor mental shape.  Too bad.

Thankfully, it seems pretty unanimous that the Monkees should be included and that the RnR Hall of Fame is kind of a joke. I completely agree. They are one of my top ten bands. The organizers are total snobs regarding the Monkees. But I love the idea of a museum and would still like them to be included so I can have a place to visit and check out their memorabilia. Micky's handwritten lyrics to Shorty Blackwell?? I'm there!

I'm close to Experience Music Project in Seattle and have long hoped that one day they would do a Monkees exhibit, or maybe a general tv and rock and roll theme. The Dylan exhibit they had a few years ago was incredible, I went back three times to soak it all in.

Yes, The Hall of Fame is a joke and i think we should really blame Jann Wenner, he's the real reason the Hall of Fame is bad  :-[. He's is a disgrace to the whole music business period. And The Monkees should be in the HOF Mostly because They were manufactured but the 4 of those guys brought it to life and not just a television band but a real band and yet they (Like the Beatles and Beach Boys) we're creative in the studio. There Are Alot Of Bands that aren't in the Hall Of Fame.

Jann Wenner.   >:(

The same man (yes, I'll mention it again) whose hatchet job in Rolling Stone in 1967 essentially destroyed whatever hip cred the Beach Boys still had.  I know they did a lot to shoot themselves in the foot...but Wenner's article was a mean spirited jab.

Guys, all you need to know is that The Monkees are pretty fucking cool.

They deserve to be included, if for no other reason than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmPmZoKeP0

Yes.

May I also take a moment here to talk about how cool some of the episodes are. I've been watching them with my nearly two year old daughter as I give her a bottle every evening. Of course, a great deal of it is formulaic (the show, not the bottle, she is onto to 3.5% milk now). But I'd say the first few are great, and then we get into the turn in Season Two and those episodes are fantastic. Curious if there are any fans of the show.

That is a myth.

yep

I have no idea what people are saying "yes" to anymore on this thread.