The Smiley Smile Message Board

Poor Brian :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUUM8RxsB4&feature=related

i love the since you put down dee dee bee BAAH BAHH DA BEE da dee dah

Ah, the 40 minute tape of the Help Me Rhonda vocal session. One of many Beach Boys trainwrecks...

You don't have to sound incoherent to be suffering from the affects of too much alcohol.  Murray becomes downright belligerent as the session progresses far surpassing the uncomfortable stage veering quickly towards the intolerable stage.  While it's a fascinating listen all the years later into how The Beach Boys were transitioning as far as getting out from under Murray's thumb, it's equally unfortunate that preserved for posterity is an extremely uncomfortable moment for the band.  The last couple of minutes are extremely hard to listen to.  Anyone here familiar with Arthur Miller's "Death Of A Salesman?"  It reminds me of that.

Here's the full 40 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bxfR-Vuo8Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bxfR-Vuo8Y)

A few things from this:

When it is given in Endless Harmony video or A&E Bio (can't remember which, maybe both) what doesn't come across is the fact that it is not all gloom. The Boys spend a great deal of time mocking Murry, knowing full well that he can hear them - almost the way that kids can make fun of their parents. Another thing is that the Dennis/Murry antagonism is on display here. After Murry's "I have 3000 words" rant, Dennis says, "That was 86 words" (or something, I haven't listened to it again to get the exact number). When Murry says, "I said 3000 words, Dennis", Dennis responds, "Okay, that's 92 words." You can kind of see how Dennis liked to fuel the fire.

In these sessions, you also get a fight between Brian and Mike - over what, I'm not sure, maybe someone with better ears or better interpretive skills can figure it out. It is also clear at one point that Murry and Mike have never got along well. What also really comes across is how well Brian knew his father and his father's behavior. He is being very accomodating to Murry for quite a bit during this video until finally he can't take it anymore. Anyway, very interesting stuff.

Murry wasn't even manager of the band at that point.  He also hadn't produced them for a couple of years.  He came to the studio only because Brian invited him.  Brian was the one who had the tape rolling to capture what his father was saying.  It's not the tape for the actual session because they only rolled tape when they were actually singing or playing.  It seems to have been a set-up by Brian to humiliate his father in front of the band and the friends who were invited to the session.

How's that? Did he get Audree to liquor him up too? Why did he keep the tape running before Murry started talking? Was this part of the "set-up"?

Inviting him to the session was a set-up.  I think Brian knew what would happen.  It's not like he invited Murry down to that many, if any,  sessions.  Unless he invited Murry to torture Al Jardine.  Which is possible. 

Without Murry there would be no 'Breakaway'.

Could you live without it?

let's see... without Murry there'd be no, what? Brian, Dennis or Carl?

Could you live without them?

I always thought Brian invited Murry because he felt guilty that they had fired him and that Murry had become depressed as a result. (Plus, it seems like Brian's family and friends were always hanging around the studio.) He humored Murry by inviting him--and isn't this when Chuck Britz set up a fake soundboard so Murry would think he was actually doing something with the sound? I think the tape was rolling because they were recording. Maybe Brian kept it going so others could hear what Murry was doing to him...it is interesting that Brian didn't yell for them to stop the tape. But it just sounds like Murry kept interrupting. There are a bunch of examples where the guys are fooling around and the tape is rolling, so this wasn't unusual.

I think what you're saying is completely implausible, personally. And that's giving you the benefit of the doubt. Brian was consistently asking his father's opinion of things well after he was fired (Caroline, No, Breakaway, etc.). It's not like Murry was out of their lives entirely and it seems fairly in keeping with Brian that he would invite both Murry and his mother to the session, particularly at a time when Brian was inviting lots of people to the sessions.

Do you likewise believe that Brian's outburst halfway through the session to be fake?

Makes me think of Bill Cosby for some reason.
(http://i.qkme.me/3oi5ed.jpg)

It's not like Murry needed an invitation. Wouldn't he just find out and talk his way in anyway sometimes towards the end?

I want a Murry action figure... with pop-out eye, and a button that plays snippets from that tape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLABwedMlFw

Giving me the benefit of the doubt?  Gee, thanks.  ::)

The "Rhonda" tape originates from a 2-track slave that Chuck kept running continuously during the BB sessions he engineered for later reference purposes. No set-up by Brian, Murry humiliated himself.

As for the highlighted part... I take it you've not heard any of the SOT boots or The Smile Sessions, then.

Murry didn't need a setup to humiliate himself, he was f***ed up enough to manage that alone. What a master class is passive aggressive manipulation that tape is at first, the way he treats Al... yeesh.

I've never heard of anyone running a background tape of recording sessions using a low-fi mono tape machine, including people talking for minutes or hours at a time, for reference purposes.  I also wonder who leaked all those tapes of the Rhonda session in particular.  If Murry was there so often after he was fired, then why aren't there other tapes circulating of him being around?  Or did someone leak that one just to show Murry in a particularly bad light?  I'd have to think there are other examples if Murry acted like that all the time. 

Well, you've heard of it now. Fairly normal practice! Obviously stuff like this gets leaked and circulated when the contents are interesting.

cue Casey Kasem and the tale of Snuggles.

I found a link that says that Murry asked to have the tape stopped at one point (meaning the lo-fi background recorder) and Brian refuses to do it, like he wanted to make sure that everything Murry was saying was captured.  I'll have to listen to the whole tape some time to see if that's there.   There must be other instances of Murry's personality caught on tape if those recorders had always been running.  For instance capturing the early days before Murry was fired and had the producer title or even Murry's firing itself since that happened at a recording session according to the biographies.  I've never heard any tapes other than the Rhonda session tape of Murry trying to run a session.

Interesting. But don't forget to ignore and wish away the preponderance of tapes snippits wherein Murry appears to be helpfully and friendly.

Now isn't it possible that Murry wasn't fired because he wanted to coach Al's phrasing at the HElp mE RhondA session,
.............but more likely he was fired so the 'boys' could drink, smoke, swear, ravish chicks, without Murry.  ???

NAW!! Course not.  8)

Maybe you're misinterpreting it.

A) Murry wants to stop the session, using a phrase similar to "Stop rolling". Brian disagrees, because he is trying to run a session and doesn't want to stop.

B) Murry says it to stop a take, which he does several times during the session. Brian carries on.

C) Murry asks to stop the tape. Brian unleashes a big vaudevillain-esque laugh and says "Never! Now everyone in Hollywood will know that you are a drunk, belligerent swine" (as if that was news) before asking Chuck to throw the switch.


Seriously, Brian was working this way a lot during 1965. There are vocal sessions for When I Grow Up and Dance Dance Dance (or DYWD, don't have the SOTs) in circulation which were recorded in similar circumstances. And probably more in the vaults, or were erased/taped over. 

And he didn't invite Murry to every one of these sessions. Maybe bringing him down to the session was an olive branch after firing him? Ever think about that?

Have to agree with AGD's assessment. Apparently that was a common practice in recording, period -- which explains why there are bootlegs of Beatles overdub sessions -- yeah, you'd think that wouldn't be possible because you just rewind and wipe out the bad take, but the fact that they exist basically proves that there was a second machine going.

Just because you've not heard something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. My source for the slave running came from a 1985 interview I did with someone in LA, in Western 3 control room. Go on, take a wild guess at his name.  ;D

Also, try rereading what I actually said - not mono but a 2-track (that's stereo) recorder, of studio standard that was plugged into the mixing board. People misquote me, I stop being so pleasant.

Also, your basic BB knowledge is truly deficient - after Murry was sacked during an April 2nd 1964 session for "IGA", he didn't attend many, if any, BB sessions. The clue is in Murry saying Brian invited him down.

AS for why it was leaked in the 90s, well, c'mon - it's hilarious.  No conspiracy to diss Murry.

Say... you're really Phil Cohen, aren't you ?  :o

Quick question: On the "Hawthorne" compilation is that Murry's voice I hear in the CR during the backing track for "Fun Fun Fun"?

Gee. sorry to offend.  I guess I'm not that up on my Beach Boys like some so called experts on this board that I get the idea we're supposed to all bow down to and respect like they're people who wrote the New Testament.  Some of us are just pig-ignorant people who listen to the music and read a couple of books and a few online articles. Frankly, most Beach Boys "experts" scare the c*** out of me and not in a good way.  It doesn't matter that much and I don't understand why it looks like a few of the Beach Boys "experts" gave up so much of their lives for so little in return.  My name isn't Phil Cohen. Get a grip.

What's offensive is you deem to post as if you're an authority, yet here you are admiiting  you lack the knowledge to back up what you've said.

God, this board is just awful. 

"Move along people... nothing to see here!"

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8d/FrankDrebin.jpg)

You know what's funny is that even from the grave Murry is making people angry!

Show 'em who's got the guts! Sing from your heart.

Andrew, you're flatting. Watch your oo's and ah's.

KittyKat, i'm a genius too, ya know. Now let's project like we used to when we made clear records.

(http://www.thecontrarianmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/murry.jpg)

Say, has anybody here ever heard the spec Taco Bell jingle he recorded? I must have details.

Brian an be heard during the God Only Knows sessions (or some other Pet Sounds sessions) saying "...right dad?"

Anyway, for more info about the Murry-Rhonda session, check out C-man's fantastic website. Here's the link to Rhonda:
http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/custommusic2/craigslowinskicom.pdf#page=45

:lol

It does matter - that's why this forum, and others, exist: that's why we're posting here. A certain level of knowledge is assumed here, especially when someone starts posting their beliefs as fact. Contrary to appearances, I don't devote that much of my time to BB research, and the returns I've had - lasting friendships, extensive US travel, an intermittent writing career, listening to some of the most amazing music ever composed and last but by no means least, the friendship of band/inner circle members - more than outweigh the monetary outlay.

Just so happens I have a huge regard for accuracy in all matter (not just BB), and when someone like you starts posting something that patently has no basis in fact (hint: it would have been a good idea to have heard the entire "Rhonda" tape before using it as evidence for Brian humiliating his father).

It's been mentioned before, but just to confirm that it was a fairly standard practice to run what some in the 60's called a "journal reel" during a session, which would capture *everything* that went down on tape. Phil Spector recorded literally everything from the time the musicians were setting up and warming up in the studio - if they played something he liked, he'd go back to that journal reel and play it for them in return if they didn't know what he was asking them to play. The source of some pristine quality Elvis studio sessions from the 50's was a journal reel that the engineer kept for decades. The sessions themselves would not have captured that much.

Brian obviously did this, Chuck Britz confirmed it to Andrew, we have some of the results: Just because we don't have as many of them for vocal sessions as "Rhonda" could mean they either were wiped, lost, or are simply not available. There were a precious few on SOT, including the Pet Sounds vocal session where Brian explains the origin of Old Master Painter as Al and the boys are cutting a vocal.

One thing to clarify: On the Help Me Rhonda tape, there are in fact *two* different sources we're hearing. There is the 40 odd minutes of the actual session. At the very end, Brian is in the room with Murry and Audree, and listen very close: He is recording the conversation on a portable recorder. You hear the microphone he's holding being jostled around, and at one point it sounds like Murry or someone else tries to grab at it or cover it, and says "turn that off", or "c'mon Brian", or something like that...I can't recall exactly. Then Murry and Audree leave.

That last few minutes sounds like Brian was trying to "interview" Murry with his tape recorder after the session had broken up. Whatever reasons he had for doing that are up for debate, but that is a different tape and different source than the full session which was recorded onto a journal reel straight from the mixing board. Both from the same day - just different sources.

Yeah, but apart from the wonderful, enriching experiences that make life worth living, what do you get out of it, Andrew?  :lol

Side step to the taco bell
two step to the register
do be do be do be doo doo
we got into the woody
drove up to the window
boo bop bee zeee dee doo
we order tacos what a groovy thing to do
the sunrays are here ordering burritos too
scooby dooby zooppity doo
we synchopate to the fountain drinks
because we're genuis' too
woopity zoopity gee bop

Well, put like that... nothing, really.  ???

Were there any additional thoughts on the fact that the Help Me Rhonda session tape is actually two different sources of audio, or two different tapes edited together as I spelled out a few posts ago?

I was always curious of this, namely who edited them together and why. I wondered if anyone might know the answer since this topic was raised.

Don't know but I wonder if Brian thought about "Bull session with big daddy part 2" for Summer Day (And Summer Nights !!)
 >:D

Bgas, rumor has it that Kittykat is Bruce J.

.....it all makes sense now

Total gem of a recording, both in terms of educational value about how the band operated and in comedic value, even if knowing the background behind it isn't especially pleasant. Like someone else said, there is some more light-hearted banter going on in here, it's not just Murry being a hateful drunk and Brian confronting him or something.

I really hope more of this stuff exists somewhere. The similarly recorded (to give further evidence to it not being an intentional setup by Brian) "Dance Dance Dance" vocal sessions are fairly entertaining, too, with the guys getting fairly pissed off with themselves and each other. The Smile sessions stuff that's set up similarly is overall very interesting, too.

Sure sounds like him.

Murry's presence can also be heard during sessions for "Do You Wanna Dance", "Please Let Me Wonder" & "In The Back Of My Mind."

IIRC during the "Caroline No" session, Brian says, "Let's do a good one for Murry." Not sure though if he was present or on the phone.

Yeah, I think he calls him up halfway through.

Yes, and on SOT you can hear Hal Blaine goofing off with his count-ins. It's quite funny; on one of them he goes "one-two-three-MURRY!"

It's hard to tell whether Hal is mocking Murry or just gently teasing him, but his tone seems pleasant. It's possible that people outside the family/inner-circle didn't see Murry as such a bad guy, but just another piece in a crazy puzzle (that of course featured Brian at its center).

Ya know, it's a shame that Murry couldn't have been well adjusted like, uh, Mike's father or Dave's mom, or Dennis, or Charlie.....  :smokin :lol

I wonder what Murray thought of Pet Sounds/ Smile..:listening

He might have secretly admired PET SOUNDS.

He probably ignored smIle. Understandable.

He told Rolling Stone magazine that he liked "Pet Sounds" and he definitely like Caroline, No, according to Brian.  I vaguely recall Brian saying somewhere that Murry was disappointed that he didn't finish "Smile."  Not that he necessarily liked it, but that he thought Brian should finish projects that he started.

Imagine that.... a psychopathic sociopath giving his son good advice (that he wouldn't follow).
What next.... advising his sons to be honest? What a monster.