The Smiley Smile Message Board

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0ttT7oDZWi8/TRtDbWfI_0I/AAAAAAAACU0/Z4glVonucuE/s1600/BeachBoysBird.jpg



Aside from Mike being a huge dildo on many occasions, what are some good things he's done?

I'm no Mike Love apologist; most of the time he gets on my nerves.

But that said, his lyrics have always been full of energy and pretty memorable, at least until "Kokomo" happened and he suddenly believed he had to EXCLUSIVELY write in that style. As a lead man for their live show, he's indispensable. Carl had the charisma to carry the whole band on his shoulders, but Mike just plain has the appropriately-sized ego to be an effective lead man (and I mean that in a good way). His voice is definitely part of what made their early hits stand out from, say, Jan and Dean songs with a similar style. And whatever role he may have played over the years in keeping the band from disappearing altogether, he deserves credit for that, even if the product they were putting out wasn't necessarily up to snuff all the time.

Mike was a buddy to Brian when they were growing up.  People don't always become friends with their first cousins even if the aunts/uncles have their families hang out together, but Brian and Mike chose to hang out together as kids and teenagers.  They gave each other emotional support and had fun together.  They inspired each other musically (remember Brian wasn't a rock and r & b guy until his brother Carl and cousin Mike got into it).  They eventually grew up and had different interests but besides needing to keep up the business end, remembering the good times they had as kids together might have helped them overlook the bad stuff.

Wrote the lyrics to several of the best songs ever written
Sung some of the best bass vocals in post-1960 pop music, and come up with at least some of those parts himself
Been a fairly outspoken advocate for various environmental causes
Been as far as I know the most consistently decent and polite member of the band when dealing with fans
On the circulating recordings of Brian demoing Love You-era material, he sounds incredibly enthusiastic and supportive of his songwriting at that point.

He played a large role in creating California. 'Nuff said.

ML really knew how to give California to the world.

His name is ripe for puns.

Michael is not a "dildo" because a bunch of idiot fans believe so. There is no black and white. And for all of you who fellate the altar of Brian Wilson, just remember that Brian Wilson's biggest fan is Michael Love.

times 1,000!

People who really appreciate Brian Wilson ALSO appreciate Mike Love.

No way of getting around this.

The whole Mike Love vs. Brian thing has been done.  It makes me sleepy.  Can we get over it?

"Nothing to see here."  -- Lt. Frank Drebin

There's no getting around it, he's done shady stuff. Bashing him was not my intention.

I love Mike's voice.

I wanted to know the positive stuff he's done.
I'm a "new fan", I'm just trying to absorb everything.

Surely Carl and/or Dennis (or Al) deserve the title 'Brian's biggest fan' more than Mike ever did/does? After all, they didn't make dismissive 'Brian's ego music' remarks. While Dennis was saying 'Smile is so good it makes Pet Sounds stink', Mike was creating tension getting into arguments with Van Dyke Parks in the studio. but then this is where Mike's history revision usually kicks in: 'I never said i didn't like the lyrics, I just wanted to know what they meant' etc etc etc.  

You speak as if we don't already know the history. I stand by my earlier remarks.

+1

+100 for the Frank Drebin reference..hell yeah! ;D

Always fun to see a Police Squad/Naked Gun reference!

Sorry couldn't resist!  Taken a few years ago before the good man passed.  He signed my DVD "To Justin and Nordberg..." :lol

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pioCrBLd2KU/T-TFTUHfjEI/AAAAAAAALKA/E0ENT2y4K-0/s475/Autograph%2520Show%2520CROP.JPG)

Okay, here ya go.  Here’s a place to start.  Here’s a list of ALL the Beach Boy’s songs, (well most of them) with who wrote as well as who sang.  You’ll see Mr. Love’s name listed often, as co-writer and singer.  Fun list!  Enjoy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_by_The_Beach_Boys

Leslie Nielsen is all-time.

'On second thought, get me a Black Russian.'

Of course, Frank Drebin's full title is:

Sergeant Frank Drebin, Detective Lieutenant Police Squad

"But this is our hill.  And these are OUR beans!"

This has become my favourite thread ever.

Also, Justin that's brilliant! The guy was an idol of mine all the way through studying drama at high school, based almost all my characters on him and his deadpan style.

And (to be relevant to the topic) yeah, I like Mike. A LOT.

Oh, thanks!
Sarcasm rocks!

No sarcasm here, friend (that is if you're referring to my post, if not then just ignore this). If it weren't for Mike I doubt I'd ever have gotten into the Beach Boys, I make no secret about it. Mike-bashers continue to irk me.

Myke Luhv on Pet Sounds- "Who's gonna hear this SH*T, the ears of a dog?" Try standing by that.

It's just, interviews like this that continue to irk me, even though I really do appreciate Mike and his work.  I mean, bashing Brian's first album because the arrangements weren't commercial enough? Are you kidding?

http://troun.tripod.com/mikelove.html

Great picture! Did he surprise you with a whoopee cushion as well?  :lol

What's with this Brian-fascism thing with Mike bashers?

I'm sorry, but the guy has the right to his opinion.

I wonder if there's also a bit of Mike envy due to the fact that he seems to be the one guy on earth who doesn't HAVE to praise every damn thing Brian does.

Speaking of: I think we can located many an instance where many on this board have had less than complimentary things to say about one or more of Brian's solo efforts.....

HOW DARE YOU HAVE AN OPINION!!!!!

It's fine to have an opinion, but to have an ill-advised and uninformed opinion is another thing.  Mike's comments on BW 88 are, er, attack-able because he criticizes it for lack of "commercial" arrangements.  That's not an informed way to criticize music.  I have nothing against Mike, I'm just pointing out why some people might still find issue with the things he has said over the years. 

Just last week, Brian called Mike a genius, a conceptual genius. Is Brian Wilson ill-advised and uninformed?

Just how exactly can you accuse his opinion of being ill-advised and uninformed? All Mike would have to do to arrive at an opinion of Brian's album would be to.......... listen to it.

If he thinks the arrangements are too non-commercial, how is this ill-advised or uninformed? Just because you disagree with his opinion? No! Both your opinions are valid.

We need to start linking to the blueboard, where insanity prevails and objectivity goes out the window.

No.

But I tend to distrust people who criticise music based purely on commercial interests anyway (where is Ron these days?), so why shouldn't I extend that to Mike Love? Not all great music is "commercially viable". Would you like examples?


But, Erik H is also correct. It's his opinion. Certainly not law. But I whilst I do not agree with his way of thinking, I defend to the death his right to express it yadda yadda.

Let's also not forget, that interview is 20 years old and Mike is PISSED!

Maybe I'm sympathetic because I've been in his position with regards to credits/$$$ and it's an awful thing to go through.

ha!  I heard about those pranks he used to do...sadly no he didn't do it that day.  But I did ask if he would pull out a classic Drebin-delivered "Hector Savage!" for me... It was fantastic ;D

Makes you wonder why Mike didn't take legal action as soon as the first song came out without his name on it though... I know I'd have a lawyer on that right away.

The fact of the matter is that Michael was willing to work WITH Brian as opposed to against him; Michael just asked for $750,000 and future royalties on the songs he indeed co-wrote. Brian's management felt differently...when your main witness is Brian Wilson...and the rest is history.

And what sort have mega-disaster would that have resulted in Beach Boys history-wise? What, with Murray still around!!!!???!!!???

And in 1966, Brian said that Mike was incapable of being creative. Was he ill-advised and uninformed then?

Look, fair is fair. I am already on record in this thread of crediting Mike with playing a major role in creating California. I can't think of a greater compliment. With that in mind though, I think it's nothing short of blindness to pretend as if he wasn't a difficult person to get along with because of his traits that are less than likeable.

Furthermore, I'd say the imbalance of opinion is obvious when one cannot question whether Mike Love is Brian Wilson's greatest fan without having a bunch of people get angry.

Brian's "autobiography" – coming during the conservator fight with Landy – was VERY anti-Mike, but even in that book, Brian gives Mike credit for being the first person to believe in him as a songwriter. Brian was never the most confident guy and he needed someone behind him. Mike was the first one to do it.

I don't have the book anymore, and it's been a long time since I read it, but I believe it went something like this: Mike was trying to get Brian to write, and Brian didn't know if he could write songs good enough to be on the radio. Mike responded, "Brian, the stuff you come up with when you're just fooling around is better than most of the stuff on the radio." (quote my be slightly off, but that was the gist of it).

If Mike had never sung a lead or a great bass part, had never written a lyric and had never fronted a single concert, that conversation alone would make him hugely important.

Very true, could've been real bad for Mike. Hard to imagine what the dynamic was between Brian and Mike in say '65, circa California Girls.. or '67, circa Wild Honey.  I know I couldn't sit there and be creative with someone knowing they jerked me out of songwriting credits time and time again. Mike supposedly let that happen repeatedly for years, imagine that? (I guess you can imagine that as you mentioned in your last post!) Very weird when supposedly Mike was the bully figure towards Brian. Then again I don't know all the facts. Maybe Brian was paying Mike for his songwriting services, and that kept him cool for the time being. Roger Christian and Gary Usher always got their credit, so I'm not sure if we can blame Murry. Not to bring up old stuff that's over and donewith, but damn this seems extremely f'd up. Then again, maybe if Lennon and McCartney didn't have that songwriting agreement early on, we would've seen something similar happen between them.

We get angry because we love THE BEACH BOYS (not just Brian and Smile) and are happy beyond belief that we're being gifted an awesome final act here in 2012 and we're tired of the same old tired "Mike evil" "Brian a God-like helpless teddy bear" routine floating up through the murk and threatening to wreck the party.

How is it inconceivable that we can understand Mike might have said/done some shitty things yet still appreciate the guy and his contributions? And how is it impossible to conceive that some might consider Mike's vision of The Beach boys as being as valid as Brian's: or more so, the crucial yin to Brian's yang? This being the case, there is no point in going over and over and over this. It's history and it's done, but the Beach Boys are out there kicking ass! Let's get over it.

Besides writing Big Sur (my favorite being the landlocked version) he also helped Paul McCartney out with some of the memorable lines on Back In The U.S.S.R., some of those lyrics are classic Mike!

Well, I guess Paul was irked enough to recently reverse the credit order (from Lennon-McCartney to McCartney Lennon) in several cases for some songs, so, this is sensitive stuff with people. I can't imagine it being easy for Mike to figure out the right foot to put forward with the issue. I wouldn't think he'd be too eager to confront Murray/Brian and end up possibly kicked out of the band at the absolute height of their awesomeness. Why get off that bus when you were having so much fun? Why not let it simmer and bring it up at a "better time"? ..... I'm just speculating.

Exactly. You got to my point inadvertently without me having to spell it out. Who or what or when are you going to listen to? And how are you going to use it?

There are so many threads going on and so many points trying to be made - using various articles, interviews, and quotes. And, the fact is, you can make any point you want and try to back it up any way you want by the selective use of old - or new - quotes. And, the bottom line is, it gets you nowhere. It is almost impossible to prove anything in the Beach Boys' crazy world, even though we keep trying. So many of these debates (and they are stimulating, enjoyable, and educational - that's why we're here), just boil down to opinion. And, even though we keep trying, you can't prove an opinion wrong. Mike Love is what he is, and everybody can, and will, see him differently. And, they're not right or wrong for their THOUGHTS.

* This post is not directed specifically at you, rockandroll. You just responded to my post the way I had hoped somebody would.

Your description of this thread's conversation does not match the thread itself. As far as I can see, it is the OP's "opinion" that has been attacked and those who are on the side of the attackers have taken the position of "Hey, it's just an opinion" which is more than ironic. I understand quite seriously your desire to not go "over and over and over this." The best way, I think, to do that is to let people have their opinions and let them feel free to have them without being called an "idiot" or a Brianista, or whatever slur is being hurled these days in order to utterly shut down what can often be a valid point of view.

Right, which is why that's not my method, though to be perfectly honest, I think for many reasons it makes more sense to accept Brian's word on any matter (not just his views on Mike) in the 60s than his word on matters presently.

I still say Murry wouldn't profit from leaving anyone out of the credit. Right? Co-author's didn't compete with his publisher's royalties. Right?

Brian would profit from leaving his co-authors off of the authorship but not Murry, so I'm not sure why Murry keeps getting the suspicion. Must have stung that authorship got shared with Brian by non-family but not always family.

If Brian shared publishing with Murry [I seem to remember seeing that alleged] he kind of had a conflict of interest when co-authors were not properly credited and he thereby profited from it.

Too harsh?

But, again, if I dug deep enough, I could probably find a quote by Brian praising Mike's work. Brian's an easy one to find contradictory quotes, no matter what era.

Like Dennis Wilson said about Brian in a nationally televised 1976 documentary, "He's crazy..." Have fun with that one.  :-D

Well one opinion stirs another, so the conversation goes on.....

I'm not trying to call anyone an idiot, nor have I. And I don't care if my posts might veer away in some fashion from the whatever the thread is called. I'm hardly guilty of this alone. I think the Sheriff spoke as well about the subject as I ever could and there have been many such reasonable posts that have seemed to bring some resolution, yet this keeps bubbling up. It is annoying, and please try and understand that I mean this when I say there are genuine Mike fans out there and for such creatures: constantly feeling the need to defend him or inflate our own opinions of the guy is extremely tiresome. Part of this is Mike's fault sure, but in a way, the constant Mike bashing/second guessing feels like someone trying to break the family apart....... Odd analogy maybe, but it fits.....

And then there is Myke's stellar solo outings that have been so influential to music over the years. "Looking Back With Luhv" anyone? Who can forget Country Luhv"? Let's give credit when it's due.! It's a Luhv thing. :p

And after all that, in drops OSD with a remark that I certainly can't disagree with...... Ugh  :p

Them Beach Boys are a damn confusing/conflicting bunch!!!!

Sure, and in fact, the very quote that I myself am referring to contains Brian praising Mike.


Yes, though I will say too that one can use their evaluative skills in order to find some kind of stability behind the contradictory statements, if that makes any sense. If you take into account, era, conditions under which the statement was made (say an interview vs. an intimate moment caught on tape), and so on, one can probably find a consistency and maybe even a reason for the contradictions. But I agree that simply pulling quotes at random aren't going to help much.

Oh no, I wouldn't want you to think I thought that. But the word has been used in this thread.


I understand. From my perspective though, it is frustrating to see how far people are willing to defend him. Nevertheless, I have come to accept it. And I would say, as far as breaking up the family goes, I do think the Boys can handle it. While things could indeed break them apart (and have), I don't think the message boards necessarily had anything to do with it!

Or do we have that kind of power...? And if we do, can we get Mike to play with Peter and Mickey?

I just want to know when Mike is gonna sue Paul for not being credited on that song?

 ;D

I still want "The Beatle Boys"

Paul on bass/vocals, Ringo on drums/vocals, Brian on piano/vocals, Al/David on guitar/vocals, Mike on vocals, and Bruce on..... Bruce.

I'm not even sure what the point of this thread is.  The OP asked for positives about Mike, but he made his opinion clear by posting a link to a photo of Dennis Wilson flipping the bird at Mike.  Then people who even vaguely defend Mike or are just tired of hearing about it are accused of going to great lengths to defend the devil Mike Love.  It gets old and it's not Mike Love who gets hurt, he doesn't read these message boards, it's the posters who get personal with each other. Though I'm sure yet another top-post thread will begin with the same theme.

I DO want positives about Mike.
I posted that picture because it's awesome, and also, because that's the preconceived notion of Mike. I would have never started it, had I known it would start a war between people on the same team. We're all here for the same reason.
Their music has helped shape who we all are, and always will be. We ALL love our Boys, no matter how dysfunctional they are.

Sorry to assume.  You know that u & me & an as* thing.

Also, this.

 http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/wilson%20love.jpg

I'm sick of this "Oh Mike is so friggin brilliant how dare you say anything about him that's negative, and if you do, you must be a blueboarder!" crap. As I stated time and time again, I certainly appreciate and love Mike to a certain degree, doesn't mean I have to praise him constantly or refrain from saying anything bad about him.  I was trying to point out why people have issues with Mike, and those issues are certainly valid considering the things he has said.  I'm not a Brianista or blueboarder or whatever the heck you want to label people who find faults with Michael Edward Love.  The fact of the matter is, Mike's as flawed as anyone else out there is, and he has demonstrated some blatant characteristics that certainly garner negative criticism.

As per the ill-advised ill-informed opinion, I stand by that.  Perhaps I worded it wrong.  Mike's criticism of Brian's solo album is ludicrous because it's rooted in critiquing a part of a work which that work never meant to achieve.  For example, it's as if I say I hate Miles Davis' Kind of Blue because it doesn't rock enough, that the arrangements aren't as rock'n'roll-esque as I would have liked.  Well, that would be silly because Kind of Blue is a Jazz album and it is not trying to accomplish a rock'n'roll sound.  The same goes for BW 88.  Saying the arrangements aren't commercial enough is, simply, ridiculous because Brian's arrangements weren't trying to re-hash I Get Around or Surfin' USA.  Brian was releasing a pop record, sure, but he wasn't trying to top the popular charts with whatever the heck Mike figured the album should be.  So, like I said, I stand by my comment.

I don't hate Mike. In fact, I quite like his sardonic sense of humor. I have not come to bury Caesar, but to praise him:

1) A total beast of the road. When you stop and consider the staggering amount of shows over the years, I'm stunned how he keeps it going - and he shows his timing and stage presence in full effect on the 50 tour. I always enjoy the old masters, and Mike's an old master.

2) He knows how to market a trademark. And the arts are littered with good ideas that peter out through lack of execution or a half-assed attempt. Mike understands his predominant demographic and he knows how to move the cereal. A (conceptual) genius? No...just a hard working guy.

Having said all that, I call him out for his lack of guts in extending that trademark (grudgingly during the Pet Sounds era and somewhat belligerently during Smile). That same market trademark knowledge becomes its own millstone which causes him to resist thinking outside the box.

Why the almost dismissal of the whole album catalog from WH era up to Endless Summer?
Why not own up to his own hard work and exceptional singing throughout the first three Warner records?
Why is his concept of quality inexorably linked to commercial sales and chart position?

Probably because it doesn't fit his self constructed formula. The Beatles, The Who, and the Kinks all had occasional insurrections within the ranks, but they never shied away from constantly growing, and experimenting and finding the missing chord. This is why Mike angers me and why I really don't respect Bruce at all. It's Mike however who truly disappoints me because he should know better.

Here's why I'm in the minority regarding future BB records versus the continuation of Brian's solo career. If the Beach Boys were fully reunited in the 2000 decade, there is no way in my mind that we ever would've seen Smile, the concept and execution of TLOS and BW (or in this case, the Beach Boys) Reimagine Gershwin. I don't see any of those three seminal releases receiving the full, unequivocal support of Michael Edward Love because none of them fit his finely honed market researched definition of the Beach Boys. And that's a pity.

 ;D

(http://i50.tinypic.com/3m1d.jpg)

You are a very lucky man.

There's a "genius of Mike Love" from like a week ago. Why do we have to bring up this very issue, along with our tired arguments, every other day?

Preferred it when this thread was about Leslie Nielsen, tbh.

Nothing tired about my argument. My argument was dead-on.  :smokin

True story.

DON'T FORMULA WITH THE f***!

I'll tell you what Mike did other than being a distinctive singer, perfect for the upbeat songs, and an ace lyricist at his best.

Mike is responsible for the Beach Boys nerdy optimism and patriotism. How many bands would do a song like "Be True to Your School"? Mike Love's all-American attitude is the opposite of everything else in the '60s. Whether you're a fan of this self-confident California hedonism and boy-next-door machismo, it's what made the Beach Boys stand out.

Brian's attitude to life is different, and shows in the melancholy songs.

"But this is our hill, and these are OUR beans!"

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8d/FrankDrebin.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7IY5ZhKYjc&list=UU7U2dpUBOED0gC3fFq05tVA&index=10&feature=plpp_video

That IS pretty fabulous and should be taught in schools.

Hey Justin, aren't you going to add this pic to your avatar??  LOL!

Part of me wants to believe that that is STILL Mike Love's favourite song.

HA!  :lol Mike Love and Frank Drebin.  Now THERE'S a movie!