The Smiley Smile Message Board

Awhile back there was a discussion on these forums about rock groups that still have all their original members intact and this list was somewhat predictably small.  My question is why unlike other groups that have lost an original member or two (Keith Moon from "The Who" for example) have there been seemingly no absence felt by the general public in regards to Dennis and Carl Wilson?

When "The Who" toured around a decade ago all people could talk about was what an outrage it was that the band was touring without Keith Moon and once Entwistle passed there was even more calls for the group to disband before they did damage to their legacy.  However with The Beach Boys it seems that Brian, Al, Mike, Bruce and David have very easily both reunited and forged ahead quite successfully with this new tour despite the absence of Carl and Dennis.

Is this just due to the loss of Carl and Dennis being so far in the past now chronologically speaking that their absence is less notable?  Is it because their contributions to the group were somehow less notable than that of the surviving Beach Boys?  Is the fact that The Beach Boys have never attempted to permanently replace Dennis and Carl as members of the band in the ways other groups have with their deceased members?  It just seems to me that The Beach Boys have found a way to transition without Carl and Denny much easier than other bands who have gone through similar situations.

Discuss...

PS: I might as well mention it before someone else does.  I'm aware of the video tributes at the current shows.  Having seen them in person a few times, they are very touching and beautiful but seriously does anyone view them as legitimate substitutions for Dennis and Carl as far as this current tour goes?

Dennis was an absentee member off and on when he was live.  There were times he couldn't sing or he was kicked out of the band.   With Carl, I'm not sure, but I think people and the band do miss him.  However, the fact that his voice was so similar to both Brian's and Al Jardine's makes him a little easier to cover for and get a similar sound in the harmonies.  In the case of Brian, since he was the one who wrote the songs, that gives him extra rights to take Carl's leads. 

Maybe people are more inclined to fight over a signature instrument sound than a signature vocal sound. I'm not saying Carl and Dennis weren't great at their instruments but unfortunately neither were particularly known for them.

1.) In recent decades, the Beach Boys have not had distinct personal identities to the general public, with the possible exception of Mike (and Brian to the superfans). Dennis was big in his day, but faded out over the course of the 70s and early 80s.

2.) They have had evolving lineups on the road for decades (subs in and out for Brian, large backing ensembles who end up singing lots of the songs), which likewise suggests that individual members aren't that important.

3.) They forged ahead after both Dennis's and Carl's deaths without a pause. They recorded quite prolifically after Dennis passed. Carl was tougher, but the Mike-led group hit the road almost soon afterward. The point is, the Beach Boys have always been a going concern. They have never let member departures or deaths keep them from playing.

4.) The 50th anniversary, while missing the two brothers, still includes Brian, Al and Dave's returns to the fold. All of them are legitimate members, and fans are delighted to see them.

5.) I'm unclear what you mean in talking about the video tributes. Clearly they aren't substitutes for Carl and Dennis. But what else would you have them do?

I have no issue with the video tributes.  I just wanted to cut those off at the pass who would say something like "Carl and Dennis are still members of the group.  Look at those fab video tributes!".  I understand the band's intentions in making them but as you said clearly they aren't substitutions for Dennis and Carl. 

Your other points are great and shed some light on some issues I had questions about  Thanks for your insight. 

For many in the UK at least Brian is by far the most known and is the groups de facto leader. I have to admit when I first became a Beach Boys fan Brian was the only one I bothered to do any research on, he has also had a successful solo career which has spread his name out as well as playing high profile gigs such as Glastonbury, The Queen's Golden Jubilee etc. You don't get to those sorts of places if your not respected or unknown to the public. Mike is also the most famous voice and was the face of the touring group for a long time now. They both arguably sang on more well known songs to the public and as the lead singers and lead songwriters during their peak years with possibly the most distinctive voices get the most attention then and now.

Carl and Dennis are the heart and soul of the group, there's no way you can replace them, they wouldn't have become as great as they are now without them. In fact you could say they saved the group after Brian's breakdown. However there are enough original Beach Boys members in the reunion for the public at large not to notice that anyone is missing. As sad as that may be. If Brian or Mike weren't there or decided to leave you KNOW people would write about it.

It is a provocative and good question, though. I personally expected more of a backlash -- and there was some in the early days of the reunion. But I think that context matters, too. Everything has worked out far better than anyone hoped -- the shows have been great, the album well-received -- and that goes a fair ways toward blunting criticism. Whatever may be missed in this incarnation of the band, it's creating some good music now, which does make a difference.

I miss them of course and think that they would have made this album and tour even better. Yet the five guys up there are important members of the group and there is still a magic there. So to me Carl and Dennis are missed, but I am proud of their bandmates.

I think a lot of us would be missing them more if David or Brian were not included in this "reunion". By having Brian there the Wilson banner is certainly being flown in a hugely significant way, and David adds a certain legitimacy because he was so close as a youngster to both Carl and Dennis...he's almost like an honorary Wilson in a way. Also David brings a little of Dennis' rocker edge, as well as some of Carl's guitar vibe into the proceedings. There needs to be five. If this reunion was 4 it wouldn't feel right. I knew as soon as I saw these five together on the roof of Capitol Records back in 2006 that this combination would work. It has a natural balance. There is no replacing Dennis or Carl. But a group called the Beach Boys can exist without them if its this exact combination, take one away and its broken and the absence of CW and DW is magnified exponentially.

True but couldn't you also make the argument that Brian's status as a well respected and important musician has more to do with his past glories than anything he has done in his solo career?  I'm not trying to knock his solo work but I think most would agree if he ever went out and did a tour solely based around material off of his solo records there would be very little interest on the part of a paying audience to see that show.  There are very few acts that can get by with touring their recent catalog at the expense of their back catalog and Brian really isn't an exception to that rule. 

Whenever he goes out as a solo, he still needs to perform The Beach Boys hits to put together a commercial show.  Now given all that I'll ask the question: how successful has his solo career been outside of his revisiting and performing The Beach Boys' classics?

I agree with Jon about this. Also, I don't think the general public recognizes the individual members of the Beach Boy outside of Brian and Mike.

That said...and believe me, I'm thrilled bout the reunion and thrilled that David is a part of it....I DO certainly notice the absence of Carl. For me, his talent towered over the rest of the touring act. I'm glad I got to see him with the guys when I did.

Never got to see Dennis in concert but I've always felt his loss as the band carried on without him.

Again very true but outside of the hardcore Beach Boys fanbase, I do wonder how many people are aware that David Marks was a member of the band in the sixties?  In fact I wouldn't be surprised if casual fans thought that perhaps he (and heaven forgive me even Bruce Johnston) were new additions to the band.

Well, Brian has had it both ways. And that's purposeful: He's spent 15 years or so promoting himself as the architect of the group. In his interviews and press pieces, there is no difference between BW and the group. Not saying that's right or wrong, but that's how he's talked about it. And he's been pretty successful at shifting critical attitudes and the attitudes of die-hard music fans.

As for his solo career, his non-BB records have been modest critical successes, and they've likewise sold modestly well. So it depends on your definition of "successful," I suppose.

To the casual fan, I think the BBs story is boring. They think it's just a bunch of white-bread guys in striped shirts singing about surfing and cars. They might even think that an outsider wrote the BB material. So why bother getting to know the individuals? They think there's no compelling member, like John Lennon, or Keith Moon. Of course the bigger fans could tell them that Dennis's story is every bit as compelling, and that Carl was a terrific singer. But they don't know that. They just know that two guys in the band died at some point.

Except to the absolute hardcore fans, I don`t think that David Marks`s inclusion makes too much difference. From a musical point of view his guitar parts could all be played by one of the other band members and he doesn`t really add anything vocally. Plus most people will never have heard of him and some of the newspapers/magazines have mocked his inclusion in an, `oh, he was only absent for 49 years` kind of way.

I`m very glad that he`s involved but the reunion would have been just as successful without him realistically.

Yeah but Wirestone his solo career has largely been based around the reputation of the principal songwriter of the vast majority of the hit catalog performing the songs for an audience.  There used to be this phrase that Dylan's people used to market him back in the day and that was "Nobody sings Dylan like Dylan!" which was in reference to how many other acts made their names covering Bob Dylan songs.  Well I look at Brian's tours the same way: "Nobody sings Wilson like Wilson".

As far as his solo albums go, while I have a great appreciation for most of them, I don't necessarily regard them as successful ventures because if you went out on the street and asked Joe Public to name you one non-Beach Boys Brian Wilson song, most people I'd wager would respond with a blank stare.

Um Brian's story is pretty compelling when you get into it.  Whether it's the truth or not, there are a lot of people who regard him as one of the true acid casualties of rock and roll.  The musical genius behind one of the most successful bands of the sixties that flew too close to the sun and then suffered a significant breakdown.  That is pretty compelling stuff there any way you look at it.

For every one review that has mocked his inclusion there have been ten singling out his great guitar playing, and more than a few saying he's the coolest looking one on stage. I've been surprised by how much good press he's received considering low info journalists usual perception of him. You may be right, the reunion would bring in the cash just the same without him, but the premise of this thread seems to be why haven't BB's fans felt a bigger loss about the band doing a reunion without Dennis and Carl...for a lot of fans, especially the ones who actually know who Dennis and Carl were, having David there brings a little of DW and CW back into the mix, especially in comparison to the Mike and Bruce show.

I thought we were talking about Dennis and Carl. But anyway, my point is that a lot of people haven't bothered to get into the stories of the individuals.

I agree that for the fans it means a lot for David to be on stage.

But the OP mentioned the general public which would include more than just fans I guess.

Does anybody have the sales figures for these albums:

- BW 1988
- Imagination
- Gettin' In Over My Head
- What I Really Want For Christmas
- That Lucky Old Sun
- Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin
- In The Key Of Disney

 

I think one of the main things is that all of the surviving members are involved (discounting Blondie and Ricky). I remember back a decade or so ago in the midst of Mike and Al's bands (and Brian's of course) touring seperately, that a lot of conversations were going on among fans about whether we all really felt the BB's died with Carl, or if some sort of reunion would still be appealing. I remember my opinion being that I wasn't sure a Carl-less BB's would work, but I could definitely say that a reunion would have to have all of the surviving members involved. I think that's a key. Once a band can't even get the guys that are still alive to participate, then it quickly loses credibility exponentially.

David being there really does help the reunion hit that sort of "sweet spot." It does just visually look more appealing to have five guys in those reunion photos and up on stage, and he does lend some early-era authenticity that nobody else possibly could.

I think the short answer to the question is that the 'general public' couldn't name the members of The Who, Pink Floyd, The Beach Boys etc.  In fact the only band that could have that band member name recognition from the 60's would be The Beatles, maybe the Bee Gees.

In other words these things are important to/felt by fans of the groups but don't have much importantance to anyone else.

Example being when Carl Wilson passed most of my friends/colleagues did not know who he was.

The Rolling Stones???

I would say that The Who have much greater name recognition than The BBs.

Wirestone nails it, as per. The Beach Boys, for better or worse, didn't really stop in spite of anything. So no-one feels a loss.

The way they toured from about 1972 onwards (big backing ensembles etc) could ensure that Mike, Bruce and Al could put on a show called The Beach Boys in the early 80's - no Wilsons. Hell, apparently they can do without Mike, as per a couple of dates in the early 90's. And does the casual fan realise? Two mates of mine, inspired by my evangelical experience of seeing Brian in 2005, went to see Mike & Bruce's Beach Boys not long after (I could swear this is true, and yet did they even come here in 2005/2006?). They told me Carl was amazing that night, in any event. I guess there was just not much recognition in the popular consciousness.

As an aside, Brian feels the need to replace Carl with Foskett, as the new album shows. And yet, there is no desire for him to have a Dennis voice in there. That's quite sad, really.

As for the Rolling Stones, I think the average person might be able to name Mick and Keith an that's about it. Rock music has fallen so far down in popularity this past decade so it has fewer fans. I think Generation Y would have an easier time naming classic rappers than rock musicians. There was a funny YouTube video last year that showed 20 somethings attempting to name the Beatles. Most of the responses were along the lines of "Well, there's Paul McCartney....and....oh, John Lennon and....I don't know".

In a way, being a rock fan these days is sort of like being a Star Trek fan.     

Bill Wyman, Charlie Watts, Ronnie Wood and Brian Jones are all more known names than the majority of The BBs though.

IIRC, Gershwin sold around 53,000. Don't know about the others.

Did I read somewhere that BW 88 sold around 400,000???

Dunno about total sales figures, but chartwise they've done fairly well since Smile (#13) -- TLOS hit #21, Gershwin #26.  So compared to the album market in general, which has of course imploded since the old days, they're strong results.  Better than collections like "The Warmth of the Sun" (#40), even.

(BW88 hit #54, Imagination hit #88, and GIOMH #100.  Brian's revisitings of Beach Boys material, from "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" through the live albums, generally haven't charted aside from Smile.  Neither have the Beach Boys', of course -- NASCAR sank without trace, and "Stars and Stripes" only made #101...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Sad but true but then again as I mentioned the other day I'm pretty much underwhelmed with the lack of information anyone born in the nineties or afterwards has about rock and roll.  It's not their stuff and it isn't marketed to their generation on a regular enough basis where it becomes engrained in their memories.

Even during the years when Carl and Dennis were around, the live band was missing something because Brian was not part of it (and when he rejoined in the late 70s, he was barely part of it).  Brian Wilson is arguably the band's driving force at its peak and now he's in the Beach Boys with a participation he hasn't given in many years.  All but one of the songs on the new album are written by him, the most writing credits he's had on a Beach Boys album since "Love You" and he's playing live, singing leads when the song requires it and doing a pretty good job.  While there's no doubt that the band loses a little bit of something without Carl and Dennis and that they brought a lot to the group in their own way, Brian's presence in this capacity is the band's essence rather than the "brotherhood" and "harmony" (because let's face it, in their heyday, there was little of that).  And now when you see this band live, you're not only seeing a legendary group, you're also seeing its larger than life leader, and even at the group's peak, there was little chance you would see that.

The music is the star of the group. I don't know that Generation Y has much to do with it. How well did the general public know the individuals in the 60s? Personally, I don't think they can replace Dennis or Carl. Carl's voice and Dennis' soul will never be replaced. However, the 5 guys on stage now are the best we can do in 2012. Well, unless they add Blondie and Ricky!

Edit: (I didn't read your original question and thought you were referring to how well Beach Boys fans knew the boys in the sixties) 

Short Answer: Beach Boys fans had a decent idea about who their idols were due to the fanzines but the general public probably not so much if they weren't music fans.

I always thought it was a sign that music fans new just enough about Brian for The Beach Boys Today album to say "plus three more great new songs by Brian Wilson".

By the mid-60's the casual pop/rock music fan knew who Brian Wilson was, even before Derek Taylor's "Brian Wilson is a Genius!" campaign. Beach Boys fans knew the individual members by name of course, from photos and additional info on record sleeves as well as the numerous fanzines and similar stuff, as JohnMill already mentioned.

In general the Beach Boys have been pretty anonymous - it might be a cliche but "the music is the star" is true.

I would observe, though, that Carl was not so easy to replace when he took his sabbatical in 1981.  That Queen Mary show is almost as painful to hear as the Australian 1978 shows.

Rocky, how many shows did you attend between 1965 and 1975? While I will admit that I would have loved to seen Brian tour with the band, I can tell you from the shows that I attended from 1969 through 1975, that those shows were fantastic and exciting, Brian Wilson or not, just mho.

Carl Wilson is not at all easy to replace -- just look at how many different people are taking up one or more of his parts (and role) in the current tour. Brian and Darian are singing his leads, Jeff and Al some of his parts, and that's just the vocals for starters. Plus there's still a Carl Wilson-sized place in the harmony blend that can't truly be filled because no one has a voice quite like his, not to mention his charismatic stage presence.

I miss Carl and Dennis very, very much, but I still love hearing and seeing those five guys and their cohorts going out on the road, kicking @ss onstage, and putting out new hit material. I think both Wilson brothers would have wanted it that way.

The rolling average of interaction with non-fans--

them:  "Didn't one of them die?  I thought that was Brian." 
me: No, that was Dennis.  Also, Carl died of cancer in '98.
them: completely blank stare

The rolling average of interaction with non-fans--

them:  "Didn't one of them die?  I thought that was Brian." 
me: "No, that was Dennis.  Also, Carl died of cancer in '98."
them: completely blank stare

I'd even add Mick Taylor to that list. He is a god among rock/blues guitarists..I really want to mention Stu as well... :hat

Also, as to the original post question, I think it come's down to how well Jeff Fosskett slips into that Carl role,vocally and as band leader. Some have mentioned before how close Brian seems to him and depends on him. I really suspect that he is a (maybe the) major major reason why we get to enjoy the Beach Boys now in 2012.I'm sure he make's Brian comfortable and gives him the confidence to pull this off. I wouldn't be opposed at all to him officially joining the band at all as I think everyone owes a great debt of gratitude, and with his band history & current role,it fits & is right.

On a different note, did anyone else see Brian & MIke on The Factor? Brian was classic, when asked if he thinks of his deceased brothers :angel: Carl & :angel: Dennis during the new show's, he replied,dead-pan "yes,twice."... ;D

As far as stuff the casual fan would know, Carl only sang lead on "God Only Knows" (where he's trying to sing like Brian's guide vocal) and part of the "Kokomo" lead.  As mentioned, there's a million people in the band covering for Carl's parts (and don't forget David Marks on guitar too).

Dennis' drumming never was an integral part of the band's sound.  Obviously a lot of the hits are studio musicians and then the live arrangements didn't have them really jamming out or anything.

Oh Jon Stebbins, where are ya when we need ya. Obviously a lot of the hits had Dennis drumming, and Dennis' force and charisma on the drums were a very integral part of their live sound and show.

I think their repertoire would be wider if Carl were there. Darlin', for example, would be a regular.

I think the reason a lot of Carl's songs aren't well-represented live since he passed away are because no one in the current incarnation does that sort of white-boy-soul thing the way Carl did. In the pre-SMiLE era he was mostly aping Brian vocally, and it's frequently difficult to distinguish between the two of them on lead vocals in that period. Wild Honey was when he started singing like Carl, with a sound totally unique in the band, and some of the songs started leaning more in that direction to take advantage of it. I can't imagine anyone else in the band singing "You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone" or the chorus in "The Night Was So Young" and being nearly as funky. Just little things like tending to pronounce the word "I" as "ah", like he was from the deep south or something. Al sometimes comes close, cause he's got sort of a rock 'n' roll voice, without rounded edges, so to speak. But he doesn't have Carl's soul or groove.

As far as replacing Dennis's voice, I'm gonna be honest. If he were still alive now, I'm not sure his voice could have ever been put back together again. It's taken Brian this long to get some semblance of his tone back since he blew it to hell in the mid-70s, but Dennis's voice was even farther gone in the same period, so who knows what his voice would add at this point, had he lived.

Right Dennis wasn't the best live drummer who ever played for the Beach Boys, but he's the one who made them sound the most like the Beach Boys. Also he played in the studio on more classic BB's tracks and hits than any other drummer.

What you are saying might be true about Dennis' off-and-on time in the band.  However, during the "formative" years of the band, his stylized playing as well as his personality as the incontrovertible status as "sex symbol" make his membership indispensable, even now.  His individual work, was included in the live shows.  In my mind, that makes his work BB material.  Also, he had a number of leads in the earlier albums.

Carl is another story. Quite another story.  While one might be able to "sing his notes" on a sheet of music, one will NEVER replace the tender, soulful, and yearning quality that identifies him to the Beach Boys music.  It may be one reason why no one is singing God Only Knows.  Carl is singing it, on screen,  while his loyal fans experience the continuing impact of his absence.  And, the inclusion of his vocals on Al's Don't Fight the Sea on his Postcard from California.  It is the voice that can make one quake. The emblematic voice of rock music.  Easy to replace? Not on your life!

And that goes for Dennis as well.  He is singing his own Forever creation.  The Beach Boys are only accompanying him.  And for the first eight or so albums, both the themes he suggested to Brian to write about, as well as his actual surfing and race car driving, contributed mightily to the Band image, as well as the actual contribution to American music of the 1960's.

The concept of "replacing" one of those members is absurd.  One might fill in.  There is no replacement for either.  There is only "carrying on" in their absences.  End of story. 

I really do like you, Jon, and your writing is great, but I feel like sometimes you just come off as such a David Marks cheerleader/apologist. I think he's a totally awesome guy and his playing is great, but an "honorary Wilson"? I don't know about that. If anybody is an honorary Wilson these days, it's the "dorky" (your words) Alan Jardine. The guy who openly praises "Surf's Up" and pushes for the more adventurous material on tour (along with Brian). David on the other hand, obviously has to step into line and not really try to throw any weight around or make waves like Al, because, unfortunately, he has the least important "stature" of anybody in the group. Even lower than Bruce Johnston; not that I think that should be the case, but yeah. Actually, Jeff Foskett (gulp!) probably figures in even higher. And personally, I'm not sure he makes the reunion any more legitimate than it would've been without him. The reunion was pretty much legit as long as Brian, Mike, and Alan were all there. And obviously Bruce was gonna be there, as he's been in the touring version of "The Beach Boys" for a long while now. Anyways in my opinion, David is the whipped cream to the Beach Boys reunion sundae. Blondie and Ricky woulda been on the cherry on top, because having all seven of them would just be mind blowing. Alas, five (!) including Brian is pretty great.

Nicely stated. I, too, have grown a little weary of Jon's unabashed cheering for Mr. Marks. He's a great musician, no question about it, but the only guys that really needed to be there for this reunion were Brian, Mike and Al. Bruce is there because he's been a Beach Boy for several decades, and I'm glad he's part of it, but when I think 'the Beach Boys', I will always think Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis and Al.

I feel Carl's absence much more on the record than in the live concert experience.  I think it's partially due to becoming accustomed to seeing Brian and his band over the past decade plus, and the fact that for me Carl's soaring vocals were the big redeeming factor in much of the later Beach Boys material (California Dreamin' and Kokomo to name two).

David Marks matters to his band mates and some of the fans.  He took guitar lessons with Carl's guitar teacher and he captures that Chuck Berry type of sounds.  David was there for the recording of a lot of the big early hits when Al was off to school in Ohio so his guitar and voice are on those tracks.  It's a great human interest story that a guy who was fired before he was done growing (he's several inches taller since his old Capitol Records pics) is now on this reunion tour.  It doesn't make up for Dennis and Carl of course but it's something at least.  David tells good stories about the Wilson family and the Hawthorne neighborhood and I'm sure that's why he had a book written about him.

I think the presence and authenticity that David brings to the table PLUS the fact that Brian is at a much higher functioning level playing live with the band than at any point since 1965 are the two things that make the difference.  The fact that we get to see Brian onstage singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" halfway decently is absolutely mind-blowing to me.  Imagine such a thing in 1977 or 1981.  No way.  In a lot of ways, Carl stepped up to fill the void Brian left.  Now Brian is returning the favor.

I also have to ask myself if the reunion would have happened if Carl had been alive, or if it would have happened quite this way.  Without Carl, there's basically two centers of power in the band.  With him, there would certainly have been three...it might have been very difficult to make it all work to everyone's satisfaction.  One reason I think this reunion works in some ways is you are back to the functioning dynamics of the band circa 1964, where Brian and Mike are dividing power and everyone else, while contributing greatly, are to some degree along for the ride.  It's fascinating to watch Brian reassert such dominance over the band after MANY MANY years...but the personnel, dynamics and structure of the situation now are such that it can happen. 

The first answer to this question to me is that they weren't replaced--it's not like the Who getting Kenney Jones or the Stones getting Mick Taylor and later Ronnie Wood.  They are lucky to have 5 surviving members from the 60's, and that makes them credible, but no-one is really replacing Carl and Dennis. 

There are a lot of other good reasons listed above, but the most obvious is just that Brian is truly back, and that adds a huge amount of the credibility that is lost by the lack of Carl (as pointed out above, as important as he was, Dennis was often absent even when he was alive, so it's somewhat easier for them to be the Beach Boys without him). 

One thing I do find interesting in the Rolling Stone article:  with Brian and Al's voices having lowered, they can fill Carl's parts in the vocal blend.  And, as someone else pointed out, since Brian wrote or co-wrote so much of their stuff, no-one can object to his singing Carl's leads on stuff like This Whole World and Good Vibrations.

I also think that even a lot of casual fans understand that they were a family band, and you can't really have the Beach Boys without at least one Wilson brother.  For a long time, they were basically Mike, Carl, Al and Bruce, now they are Mike, Brian, Al, Bruce and David--you've still got that one Wilson brother making it a family band with Mike. 

That is a nice metaphor you offer in your first paragraph.  Brian returning the favor... Lovely thought...

Carl's passing, oddly enough, and three way split, forced this personal growth among the respective bands. It must have required incredible patience to train the newer bands, nothwithstanding the fact that they each had former BB people who knew the ropes, the music and the general dynamic.  It somehow, makes this all the sweeter.  They all have much of which to be proud. 

They are better than ever, incredible as it seems: Professional competence, musical confidence, and renewed collegiality. 

Just amazing.  ;)

The reason i say David is an honorary Wilson is not about being a cheerleader or apologist its just a simple fact. He was family to them. Ask anyone close to the family including Brian and Mike and that's the answer you will get. If that bothers you I'm a little puzzled why. He's the only one other than Mike who knew them in their childhood, long before music was the hub holding them together. Brian does not represent this great musical genius or even a guy Dave wanted to be in a band with, he represents a big brother figure, the guy who taught him how to throw a football, Dennis is the guy who showed him the world, got in trouble with him, and got him laid. Carl is the guy he discovered rock and roll with. Al became friends with Brian many years after David had been a part of the Wilsons lives. You do know Dave moved directly across the street from them in early 1956. Carl was 9, Dennis was 11, and Brian was 13.  Audree and Murry were like another set of parents to him. When i say honorary Wilson my point is that David, to Brian, is family, he goes back in his memory bank to a place and time that was long before there were Pendletones and Beach Boys...he's the kid from across the street that was his younger brother's best friend. Simple.

Glad you feel that way about Dave. A couple things you should know...Dave wasn't fired, he quit. He was (pretty much) full grown before he left the Beach Boys... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj7sjQ0_p4
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p614/Jonstebbins/BBswithDavelate63.jpg)

That's awesome, totally cool. But I still don't know when that has to do with anything.  He was a close friend. And a Beach Boys at one point (and now again today), but I just get the feeling that you are always trying to "legitimize" David all the time, when I don't even think he needs it. He was in the band on the first four albums, and on countless compilations. He chose to leave the band, and they went on to do their best work without him. Would he have made it better? Maybe, who knows. But he didn't, and ended up basically being bar-band level by the mid-'70s until the mid-'90s while producing sub-Eagles soft rock most of the time that generated little interest. Don't get me wrong, I think he is great with The Beach Boys, and some of the Marksmen stuff is cool, but he's not Peter Green or Jimi Hendrix. He was the rhythm guitar player for the early Beach Boys, and a really nice guy, but I think somebody like Al Jardine deserves more accolades than Dave.

I think you're going off on a tangent that has little to do with the premise of the thread. Great, you think I am too enthusiastic in my effort to "legitimize" David. Got it. You aren't the first. But the premise of the thread is why were Carl and Dennis not missed more in the reunion, and my feeling is that for some fans...when you lose family it helps (a little) to bring back some other (lost) family who has a deep connection to those missing guys. You wrote that "Al Jardine deserves more accolades than Dave"...so why just not say you think by having Al there it helps make it easier to enjoy a tour without Dennis and Carl. I think that's what we're talking about here.

True, David did grow by the end of his time with the Beach Boys.  He still looked like a child in the earliest band shots and was a few inches shorter.  I still think he wasn't quite finished growing when he left the band, though, because it looks like he's now an inch or two taller than Brian, whereas in that photo you posted, he's a couple of inches shorter.  It could be that Brian is shrinking or getting a little more bent over in his old age, but I'd swear David looks about 6'4" next to the other guys.  He also looks broader through the shoulders than when he was young.  He's a big guy.

 

If  Jon is over entusiastic re Dave( and I don't think  he is) it's a fair rebuttal to the countless people who discount his participation at all and only count Al as a Beach Boy

What I don't get is Al being an original BB for singing on 2 songs and playing 4 shows, but Dave is ONLY Al's "replacement" for playing on 5 albums and hundreds of shows before HE QUIT.

 Me personally, the Beach Boys as a living breathing entity died with Dennis and Carl; The "new/reformed group is, well, what they are, And are arguably playing great shows. But they'll never be the ones I grew up loving. And while for most it doesn't matter( I don't think most of the concert-goers would even know if it weren't publicized) it's definitely a different feeling.
Great band on stage/ great performances. Congratulations to people that see them.  
Any appearance of Blondie( who gives a rat's ass) and Ricky would be exciting for only a handful.

Dennis and Carl can never be replaced.  And I think threads that suggest  possibilities of that sort are really fucking stupid  
off my soapbox

Which reminds me: That's a Great Photo!  Where and when was it taken? 

I'm not a Jon Stebbins apologist (wink at Jon) but I have often wondered myself if Dave would be a part of this reunion if his book hadn't done so much to illuminate Dave's role in the band and reclaim his part of the legacy.  I doubt it, myself.  It's significant that the Beach Boys themselves never raised much of an objection to David's repositioning and elevation in the band's history, and in fact seem to have welcomed and encouraged it.

Okay, lets just look at it this way. When you have bands, people usually recognize the band via one "classic" lineup, maybe two. For this instance I'm gonna use The Beach Boys and Fleetwood Mac. Basically when one thinks of 'The Beach Boys' they think of Brian, Carl, Dennis, Al, and Mike. When one thinks of 'Fleetwood Mac' they think of Lindsey, Stevie, Christine, Mick, and John, even though most of that lineup ain't the originals. Does that mean everybody else that was in these bands is discounted? Absolutely not. Honestly, I'd say that if Al never came back, David would be considered an 'original' Beach Boy. I sure consider him one. He was on the first album and on the cover. Al wasn't, except for one song. I'd say in this case David is to The Beach Boys kinda like a John McVie is to Fleetwood Mac. Not totally an 'original' member (John didn't play the Mac's first show, Dave didn't play on the first single), but they were both on the first album and the first the public really heard of these bands, these were the guys that they saw. However, McVie stuck with his band through today, while Dave decided to leave the next year.

But regardless, Dave left in '63 and the era that truly sticks in the general public and even most music fans memory is the '64 to '67 run. And that includes Al Jardine. So Al gets the higher profile. And Al is looked at as 'classic' and by a technicality, an original. But honestly, who is an 'original' in these bands and whatnot doesn't matter to me. It's who was there when the great music was made. And that's why I have love and respect for Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al, David, Bruce, Blondie, and Ricky, because they were all Beach Boys, regardless of 'when', and they all made great music.

I think this is August 31, 1963 at the L.A. Sports Arena.

Dave's about 6'1" and 165 pounds if that. Long and lean.

I'm pretty pro-David and think he should be counted as an original, but I'm curious about the statement that he plays on the band's first 5 albums--I've heard this several times.  I'm sure a lot of you have read Keith Badman's book that documents all of the sessions, and if it is to be believed (seems extremely credible), then David fully participated in the band's first 3 albums, and also appears on LDC because of the 4 older songs that were reused.  I don't see any evidence that he was on Shut Down, Volume 2, though.  I haven't read the Jon Stebbins book, by the way, but definitely intend to someday. 

It must be Brian's poor posture that makes him look a tiny bit shorter than Dave these days.  Also, Dave looks enormous next to Al Jardine.  Al is only 5'4", though, if that.

Do a search on this board and read about how credible Badman's book is. Regarding David, he left the Beach Boys after the "Little Deuce Coupe" LP had been recorded and mastered. He's definitely on the new LDC songs. He also recorded a lot of tracks that were released long after he was gone, for instance he's on "Little Saint Nick" and "Drive-In". When he says he was on five albums its because he believes he's on some of the tracks for at least that many.

Thanks for the information.  I'll definitely look for those threads.  So, to your knowledge, are both David and Al on the "new" tracks on LDC?

Well, I'm 19 so I was not alive then but I never said they weren't a great live band on their own, I've heard the In Concert LP and I think it's amazing.  I'm saying that through good or bad times, the Beach Boys have always relied on Brian Wilson and having him actually physically present adds a whole other dimension to the group.

Yes, There were essentially six Beach Boys from April '63 to Oct. '63. Al is on about four tracks on the Surfer Girl LP along with Dave, Mike, Brian, Dennis and Carl. The LDC LP retains the same six man studio lineup, but Al was not official until after Dave left.

Though Today and Holland are my favorite albums, 61 -63 is my favorite period because The Beach Boys were so young and fresh and rocking. David is all over those first records and he is up there with them rocking hard now and THEY choose to have him up there, not us. That fact should settle any legitimacy arguments.

Say, who photoshopped the stripes off those shirts?!? :wink