The Smiley Smile Message Board

Congratulations to Joe on writing a superb set of songs with Mr Wilson and creating a great album. He deserves our thanks because we know that without him there would be no new Beach Boys album. The album has great commercial pop songs, some quirky songs and arrangements, an introspective suite of songs and a sprinkling of cheese, in short it's the Beach Boys. I also love the production which serves the songs. Thanks Joe.

I agree.  Joe Thomas fan here.  Thanks Joe!

I think it turned out better than I could have possibly expected.

And Joe was part of that. I think he learned his lessons from the Imagination experience and let Brian call the shots when he wanted to, and made sure to include Brian's band and arranger.

A lot of the co-writing is good too, even if a couple of the songs seem to come more from Joe than Brian. But that's always the debate with BW collaborations.

Basically, Joe did what he does best -- engineer a slick-sounding wall of vocals, and handle technical stuff -- and let Brian do what he does best -- write, sing, arrange those vocals, and be strange.

well, there are obvioulsy very few people who can serve as, what, "mediator" for these 5 guys?  Don Was couldn't do it.  Andy Paley couldn't do it. O' Hagan couldn't do it. Levine did it (I guess, albeit not that successfully). We should at least give Thomas a load of credit for doing a job that is apparently very difficult to pull off.

lawl guyz

I know I'm in the minority but I loved Imagination the moment I heard it and was extremely excited when I heard Joe was on board for the reunion.  I'm so happy my hopes were not misplaced!  Great album.  Great job.

Yes-job well done all the way around and time for everyone get off his back. And Joe, "Imagination" was excellent as well.

Seconded.
Thirded.
Fourthed and fifthed!

Before I listened (the first time) to the new LP, I prepared myself with Imagination.

 ;D

And of course, congratulations and thanks to YOU KNOW WHO!

I'm glad some other fans of the Thomas-treatment are coming out of the woodwork (for lack of a better phrase ;D ). I enjoy Imagination a lot and certain parts of Stars and Stripes; I think Thomas did a good job on both. To my (admittedly adult-contemporary-tolerant) ears TWGMTR sounds brilliant; though more like a Brian production with Thomas' technical skills (awaits DonnyL's imminant interjection).

I'm with you. Imagination is my favorite BW solo album. Even though it's not a great album, it's the only time - IMO - that Brian sounded normal and non-forced and non-shouty in his solo career. With this new album, Joe succeeded again! He also did the same with with Mike, Al, and Bruce BTW.

Imagination is my second-favorite BW album behind BWPS. It's got a few bad songs, but his vocals were such an improvement over BW88 and IJWMFTT that I became a fan of the album. The fact that Joe Thomas was involved in the new project never bothered/worried me.

I remember a good decade or so ago, give or take, when fans on the interwebs weren't generally big Thomas fans. I remember thinking back then and still today that he seemed like a genuinely nice guy that seemed to revere Brian and the BB's. It was his musical sensibilities that didn't mesh in some cases.

I think the hand is much less heavy on the new BB album as opposed to "Imagination." You can still hear the influences in the production sound here and there, like the use of oboe and that clink-clank guitar/percussion thing.

It definitely seems that, whether by Thomas' choice or Brian's camp or somebody's choice, Thomas is much more low-key these days with Brian and the BB's, at least visually. Has one single shot of Thomas been seen in studio or interview footage for the new album? He was pretty much always there in the footage for "Stars and Stripes" and "Imagination."

It seems like they did a good job this time around using Thomas' strengths, which apparently is the cache of songs he wrote with Brian, and the ability to be a mediator for the five guys, and dispensed with the gimmicky stuff like Thomas joining the touring band.

Guess I'm in the minority too then because it's my favorite BW solo album of all(mostly) original music for the time it came out(BWPS doesn't count!).  I think he did just as good a job on this one!  I remember all the hardore fans totally dissing Imagination back in 98 and I couldn't believe we(I'm also a hardcore fan!) were listening to the same album!

Dwayne

I have profoundly mixed feelings toward Imagination. There are some great things about it -- Your Imagination is arguably Brian's best solo single -- and some terrible things.

I never understood the "Brian didn't do anything on Imagination" chatter. Yeah, the studio footage was staged. Yeah, he may have lost interest in the instrumental tracking at a certain point. But Brian has lost interest in worse (and better) records. A clear, objective listen to the album shows that he clearly contributed to the instrumental arrangements, even if that contribution is far greater on some songs than others.

In terms of vocal arranging and his own vocal performance, the album is excellent. Not as good as Gershwin, some 11 years later. Not as natural sounding as TLOS. But the vocals on it really sound like the Beach Boys.

The big minuses for me are the tracks where the AC arrangements go over the top -- Dream Angel is a particular offender -- and the song selection overall. What's with the two cover versions? And the remake of the 1965 tune? We now know that Brian was sitting on lots of fabulous songs he'd written with Joe, not to mention the Paley material. None of it's on the record.

Finally, the sound of the record is terrible. It's incredibly trebley and tinny. There's too much spotlighting of the infamous nylon guitars and other "pretty" instrumental effects. This is one huge area where TWGMTR stands heads and shoulders above Imagination. It sounds like it was mixed by humans.

I loved Imagination, too. In fact, I loved every BW solo album up to GIOMH. That one just didn't match up to BW88, OCA, or Imagination. Even IJAWMFTT rates higher to me.

I'll join in the chorale praising Mr. Thomas... I had my doubts, but he delivered in spades. I'm listening to "From There to Back Again" right now, and it sounds perfect to these shredded ears.

I'm gonna definitely +1 this whole thread, cause with the number of BB projects that have fallen apart over the years, it's an absolute miracle that this happened. When it was announced, my status update was elated, but then immediately tempered with "too bad it'll never get finished". I'm astounded that it was finished, that it isn't an album which requires an apology to non-fans, that the number of strong tracks on it is as high as it is. I don't know that we'll ever know how much Joe was involved, and in what role, but the fact is that at worst he didn't make it any harder to complete. If all he did was ease Brian's mind by his presence, so that he wouldn't give up on it or lose interest, that alone is worthy of praise. You put those guys in a room together and you've got a lot of personality. Personality means potential for disaster. So Joe, I may not agree with every production choice on here, but I still like Imagination more than GIOMH, and this record came out better than it ever had any right to be. So I tip my hat to you. And Mike's hat. And Dave's hat.

Glad to see some praise for Imagination.  I remember everyone dismissing it when it came out, while I thought to myself, "What's the problem?"  There are some good songs on BW88 but the production was awful and sounded dated the day it was released!  Brian/Landy and company tried to hard to make it sound contemporary and it came off extremely forced, especially compared to that of "Kokomo" which, love it or hate it, sounded like something you'd hear on the radio at the time.

It seems the biggest complaint about Imagination is that it sounds too Adult Contemporary but to me it sounds more like classic Brian Wilson than anything he'd released at that point since Pet Sounds.  The flutes, clarinets, percussion, etc sound way more like Today, Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!), Pet Sounds, and Smile, than the ridiculous Linn Drums, and sequencing, etc. on BW88.  I remember arguing with a '98 era hipster who said Imagination didn't sound anything like Brian Wilson and replying, no it doesn't sound like Gene Landy!  He argued that BW88 sounded more like Love You because it was quirky.  I said since both those albums were commercial and critical failures, maybe Brian was consciously trying to recreate the sounds of his commercial and critical PEAK, in a modern setting.  I mean compared to the contemporary releases to Pet Sounds, I'm sure IT sounded a bit "Adult Contemporary" in a Burt Bacharach kinda way.  To this day, I don't see how people can't see the sonic similarities.

Granted, it's not recorded with a Wrecking Crew Wall Of Sound but a lot of the nuances people complain about with Imagination to me, sound like they'd fit right in on Pet Sounds or Today.  And as mentioned above, compared to his two previous solo albums (and numerous Beach Boys albums since Sunflower), Brian finally sounded like Brian again.  No more nasal shouting!  I don't care if they processed every one of the 9,000 vocal tracks within an inch of its life, the end result sounded great!  And while songs like "Dream Angel" sound very intentionally commercial, they still hold up better with the intentionally commercial stuff in Brian's catalog like "California Girls" and "Wouldn't It Be Nice", than stuff like "Little Children" and "Baby Let Your Hair Grow Long".

Sorry for rambling.  Again, it's good to see the album get some love.

Imagination was released the same day as Ringo's Vertical Man. I listened to Ringo first (including the afreakingmazing collab with Brian, "Without Understanding").  In comparison, Imagination seemed flat and lifeless.  I thought Brian's voice sounded slurred and tired throughout the album (despite the brilliant vocal arrangements), and the production was way too Muzaky to my ears.

I much prefer the pounding one-man-band synths and coked-out shouty vocals of BW88.

That having been said, Joe certainly deserves accolades for his very substantial role in pulling TWGMTR together.

Hate to say, but your ears appear to be slightly dysfunctional.  In ripping BW88, you just summed up exactly the problem with Imagination - namely, awful AC production, dated sounds, and trying too hard to be contemporary.  Yes, the vocals are fantastic, but seriously, where exactly do you hear cheesy nylon string guitars and bland arrangements on Today, Pet Sounds, Smile, etc.?  Nowhere. 

There are a few tracks (like "She Says That She Needs Me") where the arrangements improve a bit, but for the most part, unfortunately it's run-of-the-mill Adult Contemporary junk - which is really too bad, because I do agree that Brian's vocals are among the best he's done in his solo career.

That being said, I'll give Joe Thomas his due credit for TWGMTR.  Upon hearing his name I expected Imagination II arrangement and production-wise, but everything is generally very tasteful (with a few minor exceptions), and the vocals, as expected, sound awesome.

When's the last time you listened to the original studio version of "Love And Mercy"?  Do you honestly think any nylon stringed guitar part on Imagination is as hokey and "trying too hard" as those ridiculous drums on L&M?  "Hey, it's the 80's!  I bet this tender, heart felt ballad would sound totally tubular if we put some of those completely futuristic electric drums all over it!"  You think maybe there's a reason Brian played it a lot more "adult contemporary" when he played it live, once Landy was gone.  On the other hand, I honestly don't know how the AC elements are any different than the vibes or strings on "Let's Go Away for A While", to use one example.  In both cases, those elements could come off a little too schmaltzy but in the contexts, Brian makes them sound classy not cheesey.

Not anywhere near ready to heap praise on Mr. Thomas's production skills, but I will say "it could have sounded a lot worse."

For reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMEiggGt9hg

Exactly.  Now compare it to this "cheesey" attempt without all that kewl 80's production.  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtaPaKbLOM0

That sums up my views on Imagination exactly. I couldn't have expressed them any better.

Me three. Nice post.

I don't disagree with you about BW88, just pointing out the fact that Imagination is guilty of the same things (granted, perhaps to a lesser extent).  Just because "Let's Go Away For Awhile" uses similar instrumentation doesn't mean it's AC - there was no such thing in 1966.  Brian was showing off his exotica influences on that track, but arranged it in his own style - very different than letting someone else homogenize your music using gently plucked nylon guitar strings and cheesy synths.

Either way, I think we all can agree that Joe Thomas did a much better job this time around.

Gotta add my voice to the chorus of Thank you Joe Thomas. Yesterday I purchased the CD, put it in my CD player in my car and enjoyed what I never thought could happen again. The joy of a new Beach Boys CD. Its not the classic Brian voice but he sounds very good. "Isn't it time" could be a hit.  The arrangements remind me of the "Imagaination" CD and that is not a bad thing.  Now I'm even more ready to see them later this month at Darien Lake here in NYS.

Jet Without Wings

The interview with Joe Thomas that was recently posted in its entirety on the author's blog shed a whole new light on Brian's '88-onward story, and cast Thomas himself, for me, in an entirely new light.

Hats off to you sir, and many thanks for sharing such an insight into Brian Wilson's current working methods and the development of this new album, some of which ranks, for me, among the best work Brian and the Boys have done.

I echo all the congrats to J Thomas for helping to make a fantastic new BB album a reality!

Regarding Imagination, Wirestone's thoughts perfectly sum up most of my opinion too;



Dream Angel is a great song absolutely murdered by it's over production.

I have to say, it's hard for me to imagine Dream Angel without its production. It strikes me as a certain kind of collaboration that Brian did with Joe where he came up with a title or some lyrics, and then the song was largely put together by other hands (Joe and Jim P.). I don't necessarily object to this, but a lot then depends on those collaborators!

The production on BW88 didn't bother me at the time - everybody was using synths at the time, unless they were a roots/revival act, i.e. Los Lobos. Even rootsy popster Marshall Crenshaw ended up using them on some songs. Now, of course, it just dates those productions, but the songs on BW88 were strong, and Brian was singing better than he had in a long time. I suppose some could call the production on IJWMFTT AC leaning, kind of a preview of what was coming on Imagination, and that doesn't bother me, either, going back to the natural instruments. A friend of mine commented at the time that Brian had lost all his "edginess". My response was that I didn't expect an "edgy" Brian in 1998, he was married, happy, much of the chaos in his life was behind him.

How do people know Joe didn't write a lot of the lyrics on the new album?  I see some critics giving Brian a lot of credit for the suite but Joe may have written a lot of the lyrics.  He may have written a lot of the music, too.  I'm not saying they're bad.  They're good.  But we'll never know how much is Joe and how much is Brian.