The Smiley Smile Message Board

I think he was kind of feeling it that night...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jNJoM166gI

Man, both him and Brian were smokin' that song something FIERCE.

yes Jon, I noted this too; at Irvine he did his best work.  As I said in an other post, Dave's work in this reunion is both the core and crown from my perspective. To you and to all, by the way, I was driving back from LAX today and had the album on right over the old BB home on the shores of the 105 freeway in Hawthorne. . . .a funny feeling. . . ..

If there is a second album, Dave will continue to be a major musical force.  I hope he knows how many of us are so moved by his playing and my also his kindly, gentle mien; he's a deeply philosophical and genuine man from all I have seen and heard, and  I personally admire him. This would not be a dream come true without him.

A closeup video I just uploaded of the same performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTOsq5hDvH0&feature=youtu.be


Mike is also digging Dave's guitar licks...gives him a nice nod and a smile.

Thanks Justin. Yeah...Mike leaned over and said something to which Dave cranked off another flurry.

Dave's awesome. As great as the reunion's been, the fact that he's been a part of it has made it that much more special.

I'm really happy their using jaguar guitars insted of gibson.

The Berkeley show was incredible in so many ways, but the one notable weakness was David Marks' lead guitar playing. What was odd to me is that his limited abilities were particularly noticeable on the more surf guitar-oriented songs. There was far more weak wanking going on than was appropriate. Plus, if you are going to be bending strings all night, a Jaguar is not the best choice. I am all for Jags when played as they are meant to be.
Since there appear to be many here who think his playing is good, I will provide a link with two particularly dreadful leads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8i_LeEk5Hc

There were at least three better and more tasteful lead guitarists on that stage. The "Barbara Ann" lead sounds particularly like someone who learned to play a few years ago, rather than five decades ago.

That was a really productive first post.

Was that a joke post/account, or something?

Looks like a one post troll.
Dave is exceptional!

Good Lord.

The link speaks for itself. Maybe he just had a bad night, but considering the number of mega-talented instrumentalists on stage, his guitar playing really stuck out as amateurish. It would have been a different story if it was just garage-y or raw like Dick Dale. It was just wanky. He did neither a good job of copying the leads on the originals nor of coming up with something original himself. And his tone stunk.  The one lead that Scott Toten played was more accurately played , had a more appropriate tone, and displayed a fluidity with the guitar that Marks sorely lacks. He's on stage because Carl and Dennis are dead and it lends the lineup more credibility. I'd rather see Blondie and Ricky.

I feel his solos are sometimes not era or style appropriate. At the Beacon show I saw he didn't display enough California style playing for my taste; there was too much of an English blues feel and tone in some of the solos.  He may still be finding his way way. I would like to see him solidify his guitar voice on this tour.

Still trying to figure out where the poor playing appears on the link, or on any of the concert clips so far.

All I can see is Brian rocking on Bass. 8)

Naw, I recognize the screen name. Danimalist - I'm searching my memory banks, but if I'm not mistaken you were one of the stalwarts back in '94 or thereabouts on some AOL message board which happened to be the first thing I ever saw upon connecting to the new-fangled (to me) Interweb. Weren't you the guy that recorded that boss tune that name-checked Bela Lugosi and Dostoevsky in the lyrics?

If this is the same Danimalist, he's legit. Granted, this is an unpopular view of Mr. Marks which may come across as trollish. But I would guess it's sincere.

Why is Brian singing "Sail On Sailor"? He's rough on that tune.

I don't quite get this. Just because a guy has a low amount of posts, then reports what he hears and comments on it, THAT makes him a troll ? I hope not...because I'd be offended if somebody suggested that toward me.

I have low post amounts too. And I heard Dave play an awful solo during Marcella on a You-Tube clip. It was so bad I started laughing, but hey...I'm a guitarist too and I know how these things go. The solo in Marcella is kinda unusual and off beat. I can totally see how if you got off on a wrong position, the whole solo might crumble.

Therefore, I selected another You-tube clip of Marcella and Dave pretty much nailed it. My reasoning went something like.... "Ok, he blew it one night. Heads up and then he works on it for the next show. Better. End of issue."
There shouldn't be any shunning of posters who report what they see or hear.

So, I've just reported Dave's fluff of the Marcella solo, and I'm a huge Marks fan. I dont' want anyone but Dave to be doing solos, for that matter. If he fluffs a lead, so what. He's human.

But let's ALL be human and not prejudge somebody simply because he has low posts or mentions something unflattering. ok?

The link speaks for itself. Maybe he was just having a bad day, but considering the number of mega-talented vocalists on stage, his singing really stuck out as amateurish. It would have been a different story if it was just garage-y or raw like Iggy Pop. It was just wanky. He did neither a good job of copying the lead on the original nor of coming up with something original himself. And his tone stunk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBgipKCTmkM

Not always. He was exceptional in Chicago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrn-_2A63TA&feature=relmfu

"Daaaaaamn the thunder!"

I remember feeling the walls of the Chicago Theatre shake with that one.  It was amazing.

Great memory, Catbirdman. Yep, I was around quite a bit on the newsgroups, AOL, then the PS and Surf's Up lists. Only made it here because a guy who is a regular saw me wearing my Smile t-shirt (unworn....saved for 15 years for a very special occasion...which it was) after the Berkeley show and we started chatting. He was surprised when I mentioned I thought the only weak link of the night were the guitar solos, since folks here often claim that Marks is quite good.
Another Austin musician friend is going to the Houston show tonight. I told him to let me know what he thinks of the lead guitar work. However, I'm not sure I'll buy what he says since Peter Buck is his favorite guitar player!
Thanks for the props for "Alone." Still probably my favorite song that I ever wrote.

Dave Marks ain't the least bit "amateurish".  That's for damn sure.  I thought he was a little off on the Marcella lead, but I sure as hell didn't laugh at it. Scott Bennett plays a mean guitar solo on Marcella, but I think Dave is right up there with him at this point. And you just can't beat Daves playing on the surf and car songs!

I didn't say I laughed AT it....it MADE me laugh. Laugh in sympathy. Like I'd laugh at myself when I flub a solo.
But I'm laughing AT you, because you're insensative.


Btw.... the Marcella solo I saw wasn't a little off. It was a disaster.

There's more than ONE Marcella clip, guy. Watch them all, then don't get back to me. Please. *LOL*

LOL!   ROFLMAO!   Old AOL lingo, isn't it?  LOL!  Laughing out loud!  Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!   

Only a few posts and you're an ass already.  Learn to spell, Dufus!

I guess that pretty much illustrates what I said.

What do you think he should be playing then? A Strat? A Tele? Carl Wilson played lead with a Jaquar around 1964. So technically speaking, how is a Jaguar suppose to be played?

I was at the same show as you in Berkeley and I didn't see any weak guitar playing going on, especially from Dave!

He's saying string bending has littel place in aerly Beach Boy matereal. Show some sensativity and stop flaming everyone in sight, fur gosh sakes.

Duf, the words are "little", "material", and "sensitivity".  I suggest clicking the spell check button before you post.  Correct spelling reflects one's intelligence.  ;D  

And like I said, Carl played a Jaguar in the early 60's (there's pictures of him with it) and so did David, I believe.  It was fine for Beach Boys material.

Well, you believe wrong, guy.

Dave did have a Jaguar that he used on RARE occasion with the Beach Boys, but mostly, awlmost always  he used a Stratocaster.

For that matter, Carl also played a Stratocaster in the aerly 60's, before he got the Jag.

Try and be nice, abandon the defensive spelling-police thing and we'll get along phine.

What the hell's "JanBerryFarm?  And what does that avatar depict? Is it Beach Boys/Jan & Dean related? How is breakfast significant here?

Just curious. Don't get upset, meat!

Well, THAT'S for me to KNOW and you to figure out.

How old are you, son?  ::)

I'll be 15 this Fall, meat.  Here's the deal with David's guitars. I use to have a list of all of the Beach Boys guitars that they owned, but can't find it now.

In 1962 David had a Rick. Then he bought a '62 Fender Sunburst Strat and played that until he left The Beach Boys in late '63. David (and Carl) also had Fender Jaguars in 1963 - Carl's was white, Dave's was red. Dave later painted his Jaguar black and played that during the Marksmen days. Carl played his Jag until mid-1964 before switching to a Rick 12 string (which David also did at that point). Dave still plays Stratocasters - he has a 1957 Sunburst model, in addition to the blue Jaguar and other brand guitars.  

Fender gave 1962 reissue Jaguars to Al and David the first day they rehearsed for the tour in Burbank, Calif.

 

Absolutely. Dave rules. So great to have him up there doing the right thing with the right people. It's history in the making.

Missed a step there, fella. Carl switched to a Fender 12 string after the Ricketybacker. Do your homework first.  ;)

You're learning. Just don't get all puffed up.  :smokin

The emphasis in my post above was on David's guitars, there, Mr. Knowitall.  Note where it says, "Here's the deal with David's guitars".

At least you're using the spell checker now, though. Good man!

Actually, I'm nott. Nott that it matters.

 8)

Also, you left out Daves Silvertone. Might wanna add that to the lyst.

Carry on.

He kicked ass on it tonight.

That's good. Must have just been a bad night on that one.

KnottsBerryFarm?

Every musician can have an off day, even the best of them -- I once saw Brian's band do an absolute train-wreck performance of Heroes & Villains, where half the band went into the wrong section (obviously they'd changed the arrangement recently and half of them had forgotten).

That said, the one time I've seen David play he was absolutely spectacular on precisely those songs that it's being claimed here he was weak on -- the early surf tracks.

Possibly the problem (if one exists at all -- and I've not heard a problem on any of the live recordings) is that on this tour David is the sole lead guitarist? One thing that made the show I saw in 2008 special was the way that David and Scott T's very different guitar styles blended together, with them both switching off rhythm and lead.

Yeah, I thought of that.  But "JanBerryFarm"?  Wha? Huh?

Anyway, yeah, I left out Dave's first guitar, the Sears Silvertone acoustic that he got as a present from his parents.

And I also left out David's first electric guitar, a Carvin that he bought from John Walker.

OK, I just found my list of Beach Boys instruments. It would be neat to see all of these in a book (a la "Beatles Gear") but a few of them were lost or stolen. Jeff Foskett still has Dave's original Rickenbacker 12-string from the Marksmen days.

Carl Wilson

* Kay single cutaway acoustic w/pick-up (his first)
* Fender Jaguar
* Fender Telecaster, w/Bigsby, yellow
* Fender Stratocaster, white
* Fender Stratocaster (Old Yeller) his favorite
* Fender Stratocaster, blonde
* Rickenbacker 360 12-string “Fireglo”. Limited edition (500) repros were made by Rickenbacker of the CW 6-string and 12-string varieties in both Fireglo and Jetglo finishes.
* Gibson ES-335 (Custom made in 1962, it had a blonde finish and gold hardware with a Bigsby B-7 tremolo. In 1983, the original guitar neck was broken and replaced with a neck from an ES-355).
* Gibson ES-335, red
* Gibson Epiphone Sheraton 6-string (used for the '72 In Concert album)
* Gibson Epiphone Casino
* Gibson Epiphone Riviera 12-string, tobacco sunburst
* Gibson Les Paul, black
* Gibson Les Paul, sunburst
* Gibson Les Paul Jr. (2)
* Gibson Firebird
* Gibson J-200 acoustic
* Baldwin 712 12-string, red
* Martin Bicentennial D-76 acoustic
* David Russell Young custom acoustic
* Fender Band Master amp
* Fender Concert amp
* Fender Princeton amp
* Fender Dual Showman amp
* Fender Twin Reverb amp (Cerwin Vega speakers)
* Fender Twin Reverb amp (Gauss speakers)
* Fender Bassman amp
* Mitchell amp
* Peavy amp
* Orange amp
* Fender, Ernie Ball Slinkys, Extra Light strings

Al Jardine

* 1962 Fender Stratocaster (offered to Fender for repro)
* 1964 Fender Stratocaster
* 1962 Fender Jaguar repro (2012)
* Fender Precision bass
* Epiphone Casino
* Gibson Les Paul
* Gibson ES-335
* Fender Bassman amp

Brian Wilson

* Fender Precision bass

Dave Marks

* Sears Silvertone acoustic
* Carvin electric
* 1957 Fender Sunburst Stratocaster
* 1962 Fender Sunburst Stratocaster (used on the studio albums and on the road)
* Fender Jaguar
* 1962 Fender Jaguar repro (2012)
* Rickenbacker 12-string
* Fender Showman amp, blonde (w/ Fender Spring Reverb)
* Fender Super Reverb with custom Howard/Alexander Dumble Mod  

Dennis Wilson

* Gretsch drums
* Camco drums
* Ludwig drums
* Yamaha Drums

Bruce Johnston

* Fender Precision bass
* Keyboard (Fender Rhodes, Farfisa?)

Mike Love

* Saxophone
* Tambourine
* Moog ribbon controller
* ML Skin Flute

Anyone care to update Brian's section? The personal pianos/keyboards he had at the Bellagio studio? I'm too lazy to look it up in Desper's book or elsewhere. I know he had the Chickering, which was given to him by Murry....and the Tack piano......

Or maybe this is for another thread.

Can't add anything for Brian, but I know as far as amps are concerned Carl also owned and used an early(ish) Dumble 'Overdrive Stinger'. And although it wasn't played (or so I'm told) during a UK tour - think it was '69 - he also had a Paisley Tele on the road at that time.

About 1979 Earle Mankey gave me a black Hammond M3 organ that Brian had given to him.

Right. I'm not claiming it's clever. It's just what it is. All that is this, I guess.
I can change it, if it offends anyone. No biggie.

No, you didn't think of it. You're just saying that, now.

Don't really get why you're obsessing over a nickname. Seems a dreadful misguided waste of time, when you could be cutting and pasting.

Anyway, go ahead and list Brians amp as a Bassman, but I'll wager he PLAYED through a Showman.

Wha? Huh?Wha? Huh?Wha? Huh?Wha? Huh?Wha? Huh?

Seems kind of presumptuous that anyone here should suggest how Dave can be more "appropriate" performing the material he and Carl developed and recorded as teenagers. And also telling him how he should play his Jaguar (don't bend notes) is slightly anal. Dave's the kind of musician who likes to explore with his tones and his leads. I saw him play a horrible solo on Do You Wanna Dance at the Hollywood Bowl, in fact David and I laughed about it afterwards, and he told me that song gives him trouble because its a quirky progression under the solo, but the next night in Irvine he played it so beautifully and cool, referencing the record...but also stretching out into uncharted territory. It was one of the best things of the night. I like the way he takes chances, and doesn't copy the records per se. He will make mistakes on occasion, or have an off lead here and there, but the good ones are absolutely special...and BTW Brian obviously really digs the way Dave has been playing on the tour, check out the you tube clips. As far as how Dave plays, its his prerogative, its his band, and he played more guitar on Beach Boys classics than any of us. I've been playing the guitar for 46 years and I'd be embarrassed to think i know more than him.

BTW...he did play a Jaguar with the Beach Boys for much of 1963.
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p614/Jonstebbins/BBswithDavelate63.jpg)

Just for the record, isn't that kind of what I began with? A guy blows a lick, he chuckles, works on it, and moves on.

Then a flamer comes in all defensive and abrupt, calling names, insulting and vulgar, twisting things.

Marks is a great guitarist. Stebbins is a gentleman.

This is a terrific site, sans the flamer.

I thought flaming died with the Cabinessence Chatroom. Evidently not.

Now where's my can of "Troll-B-Gone* spray??  

Case in point.

Will somebody clue this guy on being pleasant? Please?

No, it's fine. That's just what came to mind when I saw it.

Mikie's a good guy, and a hardcore fan who bleeds Beach Boys when he cuts himself shaving. He's a little grumpy sometimes because he's old like me. You guys should have a (virtual) beer and bury the hatchet...not in each other.

^This


Oh, and for the record, I :lol'd at the username.

Hey Jon, has David indicated to you which show(s) he's liked the best so far on this 50th Anniversary tour? Any specific venue? Maybe one of the West Coast shows?

ok, guys. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm easy. But I'm not a pushover.

I'm all about exchange of ideas and information. But not about calling people out on typos, 'n' stuff.

Stebbins, sir, can you verify that Brian actually used a Showman amp back in the day, rather than a Bassman.

Bassmans (even then) are notoriously underpowered for bass, and most often ended up being used for guitar.

For the record, Brian often used Ampeg amps. Check out the huge rig he was playing through in Sacto in the Beach Boys Concert Lp pics.
Huge 2-15 cabinet, which was uncommon at that point, I think.

Okay, as long as he cools it with those mouse jokes.

(sorry. Couldn't resist)  :smokin

That's a great question that I'll be sure to ask him. Unbelievable to think they are only 26 shows in and it looks like they are going to do something like 75 before the tour is done. Wow!

Working on an answer to this. Photo evidence is always best. The photo I posted from '63 looks like he's playing through a black face Fender (bassman or showman).
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p614/Jonstebbins/BBswithDavelate63.jpg)

Gotta love that pic. But it's a bit difficult with all those coil cords 'n' stuff. But, no blackface era amps there. Those are what we call 'brown face' Fenders, or, blondes. Pretty much those amps are from the Beach Boys early days before the blackfaced amps got going. See the white knobs? Not many blackface amps with white knobs. A handful, perhaps, but these aren't them. Those are early brownface Showmans. Bassmans didn't have that many knobs.

Possibly, the one to the left with the oxblood grill could be a Bassman, but it's hard to tell who's really plugged into it.  Looks like Brian is, but who can really say for sure. Gotta remember that in those days, the frantic nature of playing quickies on stage with three or four other bands sharing the stage, they didn't always play through their own amps, and probably didn't worry too much about who was plugged into which amp.

In this picture, I think those are the Beach Boys personal amps, they hung onto the head with the oxblood grill for quite a long time, well after Fender had changed to the lighter grill. I've seen that head in a lot of pictures.

It's also interesting that in many cases, They only had two amps on stage, and they just plugged both guitars through one amp. I think that's the case at the Tami show. Al and Carl both using one Fender amp. A Shomman with JBL's, no doubt.

OK so there you go, looks like Brian has the non-coil chord going to the brown faced showman (or bassman).

BTW...this odd stage set up with three amps bunched on one side of Dennis isn't all that odd because they are playing a Show Of Stars gig where something like 10 act's equipment is piled onto stage at once therefore they boys just have a little nook of space to set up. Something like Sacramento where it was basically them and maybe one opening act allowed them to spread the gear out in a more balanced way. I'd bet the amps are Brian/Carl/Dave left to right (note Carl is nearly hidden, but standing between Brian and Dave).

NOTE: I added a bit more info to my last post, but yeah...it LOOKS like Brian is using the amp at the far left, whatever that amp is. Appears to be a Bassman, but very well could be a Showman, I don't have my microscope handy. Also remember that sometimes an amp head might be plugged into a completely different cabinet, OR, one amp might be driving another amp for added power.

Did you ever look carefully at the huge black and white picture on pages 60-61in Badmans book, of the Beach Boys on stage from BEHIND? Check it out. One of their amps (the one on page 60) doesn't even have the speaker plugged in!

Odd.

By the way, Sirius radio live set has Dave burning solos something fierce. . . . . .

I am starting to hear more and more of his guitar parts on the album too: he does 2 tracks on the title cut, one in the "your summer dream" style.  I think he does all the solos, with the Skunk decorating with some lofty high notes here and there.  You guitar gods with good ears can catalog him song by song, of the 7 he plays on.  As for his vocals, the professor will continue to trust his ears over the listings; I am very willing to imagine what we scholars call scribal error in the transmission of information.  Foe me, Dave had added his signature style and recalled the early BB records wherever he could.  I am hoping for a full on Moondawd style somewhere on the next album, though.

My impression is that all the BB love this album and their work on it, and that's what means the most to a fan like me--especially if it goes to number 1.

...and they often used the outboard reverb units too, so there was even more patching and plugging. But I agree I think these are their regular amps, and in an era when there was a lot of just using whatever was there...it seems the BB's were relatively picky and stuck to the Fender amps and gear (with a Rickenbacker element on the horizon).

Dave has brought a great punk attitude to their sound this tour. Great 1963 shot.

It's interesting to note that the amp that Brian appears to be plugged into is sitting atop a cabinet that appears to have JBL speakers. Normally, Brownface Bassmans from that era didn't come with JBLS.

Then again, I'm sure if the Beach Boys wanted JBL's, the got JBL's.

It's also key to remember that back in the day, more often than not, bands had to plug their vocal mics into Fender amps because the 'sound reinforcement' industry at that time, didn't have their act together at all.

The Beach Boys seem to have been one of the earliest R&R bands to successfully address that problem and were probably only forced to such indignities at the very earliest shows.

The Beach Boys were/are a class act.

Here's a shot from the Hollywood Bowl, October 19, 1963, a couple of months after Dave left the road.  Might be the same Fender amps.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,13152.0.html

These from the closed circuit "Lost Concert" show another version of the BB's backline of amps and reverb units:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/bbamp1.jpg)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/bbamp3.jpg)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/bbamp2.jpg)

The first photo is probably the most telling. From left, behind Al is the Ampeg atop an Ampeg cabinet. Next on the floor is a white Tolex Reverb Unit. Then, in the center, is an oxblood cloth white Tolex Fender Bassman atop what looks like a standard 2x12 white Tolex cabinet (this wasn't a factory match, obviously). Carl can be seen walking back to this amp during the show, I'm assuming that was his. Next on the floor is a brown Tolex Reverb Unit. Then to the far right sits a Fender Deluxe, or what looks like a Fender Showman, sitting on a larger 2x15 cabinet (I think...).

This show wasn't too long after the earlier photo posted with David, in historical terms. The Bassman head was smaller as it only had volume-bass-treble controls for each channel (normal/bass) and a "presence" knob to the far right. These were popular guitar amps - Brian Setzer uses one all the time, for one. This same amp is in both concerts. The head is much smaller on a Bassman. The Showman, far right, had a vibrato channel, which accounts for the two extra knobs fpr "speed" and "intensity" on the vibrato channel - thus, the bigger width of the Showman (and Tremolux) as shown atop that massive cabinet.

Obviously David is in the early shot and is gone for the TV concert, but the Fender backline remained somewhat the same.  

I always laugh at whoever placed those microphones because they have them tilted toward the amp heads - which no sound comes from - rather than at or near the speakers, where you would normally have them. I don't get that decision, and you're losing at least half of the volume and tone of the amp by mic'ing that way. Yet the concert still sounded good! Smaller stage - Go figure.

This obviously doesn't answer the questions exactly from the first pic with David, because the amps are blocked out, but it's more fuel to the discussion, hopefully.

They are the same amps, overall. Notice the one lone head with oxblood grill. It's probably a hold over from the Beach Boys very first batch of Fender amps; as seen in the pictures taken at the Bel Air Bay Club. Must have been one heck of an amp, if they held onto it that long.

Good work. Have to say however, that there are no Fender Deluxe amps on stage here. The Amp sitting on the 2x15 cabinet behind mike is probabaly a Showman. 'Deluxe' amps were small combo amps with a single 12. To my knowlege there never was a Deluxe 'piggyback' amphead.

True dat.

Great post, GF!

If I need to edit my Beach Boys equipment list, please let me know, guys. Be nice to have an accurate reference for equipment.


And mics that they used on the road would be a nice addition. Same as studio mics? I know they used the Telefuckin omni-directional mics when recording the Sacramento concert in 1964....

Right, that's a Typo on my part - I meant Showman. I own a blackface Bandmaster with 2x12 cabinet, I should have proof-read that post.

Showman!

I always laugh at whoever placed those microphones because they have them tilted toward the amp heads - which no sound comes from - rather than at or near the speakers, where you would normally have them. I don't get that decision, and you're losing at least half of the volume and tone of the amp by mic'ing that way. Yet the concert still sounded good! Smaller stage - Go figure.


Ah! not so fast. :angel: Those are expensive ribbon mics; the kind you see Brian singing into on the cover of BEACH BOYS CONCERT. They're basically high quality studio mics that don't 'aim' at a speaker or a sound source like a ball mic or a SM57. They receive their sound at the side, not the top.

So it makes sense that they are placed in that configuration. Besides, even if they are placed slightly off axis, it's probably on purpose. Those are expensive and sensative mics. The engineers would place them carefully to avoid potential damage, since they are primarily vocal mics and not particularly designed for blasting guitar.

They're perfectly placed actually, to avoid 'beaming' from the speaker cones, which tend to be a bit harsh when miced point blank.

I'm glad they used those mics. The audio for the Lost Concert is quite pleasing.

For more shots, here are three "rehearsal" photos and one stage photo in color, which I've lightened up a bit, and showing these amps. I borrowed the pics from Getty/Michael Ochs, so there are watermarks clouding some of them. Notice the lack of the Ampeg in the color stage photo, seemingly replaced by a Bassman. In the rehearsal shots, Al seems to be the one plugged into the oxblood Reverb Unit then into that Bassman.

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/bbfen3.jpg)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/bbfen2.jpg)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/bbfen1.jpg)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/bbfen4.jpg)

IN the color shot, the amp by the drums has got to be a Showman, not a bassman.
It's too wide to be a Bassman.

In THAT pciture is almost seems that Al and Carl are doubling up on the amp furtherst away, Brian is using the Showman next to the drums and the amp behind Mike could be used for vocal mics. I don't see any PA system at all. They have to be amplifying their voices somehow ?!

I disagree about them placing them that way for the best results, but I'll definitely agree to disagree! The heart of the sound is shooting right past and under the mic, going from the location of the speaker and the angle of the mic as shown - granted, they are ribbon mics and more prone to damage from the air being pushed out a cranked amp/speaker, but you're losing the meaty parts of the tone and the cabinet by doing that. Just IMO.

They'd have just as good of a result jamming an EV 666 right up on the grillcloth, and not compromise anything sonically or risk blowing out those RCA 77's, but that's my opinion. And my preference when recording guitars... ;D

Above all, it sounded good for 1964 live concert standards! What they did obviously worked.

It looks like a matching white Bassman and 2x12 is far left behind Al and Carl, the Showman in the center, the oxblood Bassman and mismatched cab is far right.

Could this concert photo be just before Brian got the Ampeg?

Well then, we do disagree.  :smokin

The 'heart' of the sound, as you refer to it, is the 'beaming' I refered to. In some circles that is called 'ice-pick'. Some amp makers (not Fender) actually have little devices called 'Beam blockers'. They strap onto the front of the cabinet and center right in front of the JBL aluminum dust covers which are typically the source of the offending ice-pick.
I'm pretty sure that the Engineers knew what they were doing. And even if they didn't, ya can't blame them for trying to protect their valuable mics.

I believe the best sound  from guitar amps does come from placing the mic slightly off-center. I've seen it many times. Additionally, I've been in recording stuios where they miced the speaker from the open back of the amp, rather than the front. I believe that's an accepted method.

Re: The lack of a PA. Good point, either the speakers are out of the camera's view or they really were running them through a regular piggyback amp, although I can't imagine that with 3 mics. It would sound terrible in the back of the hall! Not to mention the potential of blowing out the amp.

And are Mike and Brian using those gold mics? Like Morrison on the Smothers Brothers:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/jimsmothers.jpg)

If you're asking me, my take is that Brian had the Ampeg for recording purposes, since they sound incredible. He (they) probably took the Ampeg along when he wanted a certain sound, or possibly if the Fender was unavailable. It seems kinda like they only made sure to have the nicely matching Fenders at high profile events where they expected a lot of publicity and tons of photographs.

Then again, once they got larger and more powerful blackface gear, they made an effort to have perfectly matching amps as well as matching white guitars. So, the Oxblood head and the occasional Ampeg went by the wayside. (probably to the Beach Boys warehouse. ) :3d

So what mics are they using. Carl and Al on an omni-directional, Mike and Brian using a uni-directional? Shure SM's, RCA's, and Electrovoices and AKG's? And for recording, the Telefunken's in those days?

I guess it's all in the engineer's preference and the way the speakers and amps sound and respond, I've seen all kinds of setups and truthfully none of them have sounded that bad! With closed-back cabinets like those Fenders in the BB's photos, I've had good results with a dynamic, usually a 57 or the 666, touching the grillcloth, just a few inches off to the side of the cone so it's not dead center, and if it gets too much of something, just tilt the mic angle a bit. But it's still right up on the speaker grill, I guess I prefer that close sound. And for ambience, we'd do a condenser a few feet back to get any cabinet depth sounds and all that - again, just a preference especially if the cabinet has a certain rumble to it like some Marshalls.

The mic'ing the back of the amp method is something I've heard Jimmy Page used on his Led Zep tracks often, but he also had mics all over the room, up at the ceiling, etc. He went crazy with the room sounds... :)

If you look closely at those LOST CONCERT pix, the mics are aimed pretty much at the speakers - just not point blank.

Since the pickup is from the side, and not the top, it only follows that the top of the mic capsule would be closer to the amp head. Those are rather large mics.

Wasn't that done in a network studio? CBS? NBC? The big boys always had the best stuff.  :p

Also, Brian Wilson knew all about mics and mic placement. I'm sure that something like misplaced recording mics would not have escaped his attention.

As far as the PA goes. Actually, Fender amps can work fairly well as vocal amps.  Certainly not ideal, but in a pinch.
I get the idea from what I've read, that in those days, there was a lot of pinch.

This is a tough question, actually! It has to depend on which studio they were recording, which venue they did the show, etc. The best way I've found to narrow it down is to go on photos we have available and ID them from those where possible.

One example is that Chuck Britz has said he'd have a cheaper dynamic mic, the Shure 545, for certain vocals from Brian, yet the only mics I see in studio photos on vocals are the RCA 77 ribbons, the RCA 44 ribbons, the Telefunken/Neumann U47 or the U67, and most famously around Pet Sounds studio photos the AKG C12. To put it into perspective, the 545 can still be bought for under 100 dollars new, and the others if original and working can sell into the 5-figure price range.

Are there any specific photos in question where they are using a certain mic setup, either live or in studio? If live, it would also depend on what the venue would supply versus the band hauling their own mics around from gig to gig. I'm guessing that, anyway.

Precisely. Atlas Sound!!!  :lol  Depends on the era too. By 1967 the Beach Boys had their own state-of-the art sound system. I'm sure that in the early days, like other 'teen combos' , they had a suitcase full of Shure ball mics, amphenal unbalanced cables and plastic mic holders that they hauled around with them in a suitcase.

Imagine the kind of PA systems they would have to endure during their sweeps through the midwest in 1963.

Bummer

14 days after David left the road. His last show was Oct 5th in San Diego.

It wasn't a network, as far as I remember: It was done specifically for closed circuit broadcast in theaters, where they would show this concert and the Beatles Washington DC concert among other bands. But I need to research that one again, I can't remember if a network studio was involved.

It's interesting to mention Fender amps: Eventually by the late 60's the amp makers started to sell amps designed to handle a 'full band' setup, so everyone in the garage could plug into a single amp. For the most part they were sub-standard, but the concept in the garage band era was a great one!

From experience, I wouldn't plug too much other than a guitar into a Fender tube guitar amp. This comes after learning an expensive lesson which no one bothered to tell me about vintage Fender guitar amps: Do not run a bass through the amp, unless it is a bass amp like a Bassman. I tried to put a Jazz Bass through the ol' Bandmaster, and it cost me a few hundred to fix...(it did sound absolutely amazing for the 5 minutes or so before it blew out  :-D)

Having said all that, I have also heard old war stories of working bands having vocals, guitar, accordion, bass, whatever going through those late 50's tweed Bassman amps at various gigs and it worked, but probably didn't sound all that good. :)

Jon Stebbins ~ is it possible for you to post a hi-res version of this image? Some interesting visual information  might reveal itself.

This could be a photo of Brian's amp with its original cabinet.
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p614/Jonstebbins/BobbyBorisPickettBrianandDave62.jpg)

Bingo! Awesome shot. That looks like the way the Bassman amp came from the factory. That cabinet probably got trashed somewhere/somehow on the road, and they replaced it with the one in all the other shots. or maybe they just replaced the cloth after it got ripped, but it didn't match.

Thanks for that great pic! :)

Another shot showing an amp from Hawaii '63.
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p614/Jonstebbins/bbhawaii63.jpg)

I think my hi res version is from a granier source so we don't pick up much detail. I'll look around.

Another great shot! Looks like the Showman.

Dumb question, Jon: Where is Brian and what is he playing? Seems to be Al on bass...my apologies if this has been answered before.

Brian didn't do the Hawaii '63 tour. Al replaced him.

BTW this is probably the earliest known photo of Al playing with the Beach Boys.
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p614/Jonstebbins/bbhawaii63.jpg)

Sure. and that appears to be the original 'Tone Ring' cabinet with the matching oxblood grill. Evidently something happened to that cabinet along the way, and it was replaced with a newer blonde cabinet with the lighter grill.

The oxblood era was relatively short. The whole blonde amp (brownface) era was pretty short too. Black tolex, for example seems to have gone on forever.

Again, that gives every indication of being a Showman head. Bassmans were NEVER matched with 'Tone Ring' cabinets.
So if that is Brians first amp, then it should be a Showman or a Bandmster., since those were the only serious Fender amps that came with 'Tone Ring' speaker cabs. The small Tremolux piggy back amp was the only other amp that fDender issued with a mastching'Tone Ring' cabinet... but they were way small and too under-powered for Bass.


I'm concluding that the amp in that picture is a brownface 'blonde' Fender 'single' Showman with either a 12" or 15" 'Tone Ring' cabinet. with matching Oxblood grill.

Whether that is his first amp or not.. I have no idea. It's certainly an early one. If it is his, then it's undoubtedly his first decent amp.

REF: this is a picture of a 1962 Fender Showman like I just described. Compare. Bassmans are not as wide.
(http://cdn1.gbase.com/usercontent/gear/2834769/p1_ugg4ylff1_so.jpg)

This amp is without doubt a blonde brownface Showman with either a 2x12 or 2x15 cabinet to match.

So Brian's bass's. In the early pictures (1962 & '63) he has a black bass. In the later pictures (1964) he's holding what I assume is an Olympic white bass. Are they both Fender Precisions or no? Can't tell what kind of bass Al's got in that '63 shot either.

Note the headless Fender cabinet on the bottom left:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/bbcab.jpg)

And the Showman shows up in the "Monkey's Uncle" film:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4315791642_a0eeee5b3b.jpg)

yeah, the headless thing just means they sat the heads on the floor. Done that a million times.

They are both Fender Precisions: Could the black bass actually be the sunburst bass that Brian is holding at Capitol's studios on Surfin' Safari, and other early appearances? The sunburst can look black in the photos. I'd bet Al just took that same Fender P-Bass with him to Hawaii.

Definitely, and my reason for posting that one was to show that same cabinet which later seems to have been given a new grill cloth or lost/replaced entirely.

Certainly there is no black P-bass. It's the Sunburst.  Never seen anything from that era but the SB and the White.
Al is seen with the sunburst and later with the white. Glenn Campbell with the white.

That's right. I even have a photo from later in '63 (somewhere) where Al is again filling in for Brian, but this time Al's playing the Olympic White bass.

Mikie, here is a photo from Western studios (the recent Smile-GV film discovery) of what I think shows Carl playing the white Precision Bass as the sunburst Precision Bass is seen sitting off to the left side:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/cw5.jpg)


I may be way off but i think those were both Brian's basses (or maybe 'band basses'), and I think the same white one is also seen being carried and played by Glen Campbell in a few of those shots from his stint on the road. Does that sound right?

Sounds right to me.

*hehe* That Monkeys Uncle picture is amusing. Another case where we're supposed to accept that Al, Carl AND Brian all play through one amp.  :lol  Rendered academic since they're lipsyncing anyway.  :-D Gotta love that clip. Mike is movin' and groovin'. Annette digs his act (but secretly digs Dennis, I'm sure).

She has said that exact thing in interviews.

I see the bass leaning on a late 50's Tweed combo amp...Probably either a Fender PRO, or a Fender 4x10 Bassman. My guess is, it belonged to Western and stayed there for recording sessions.
Carl is playing a guitar. Hard to make out, but I'm seeing a Jaguar., not a bass. Machine heads are too small for a P-bass. Neck is too short too for a bass .... Carls arm would be more extended.

I'm guessing there is a boom-mic in front of the amp , blocked by Carl. You can see it's shadow on the wall complete with mic cable..

Cool pics!
I'm well aware of the Beach Boys use of the Jaguar. I bought a '64 decades ago largely because of a picture I had of Carl holding one. While tone-wise, Jags are almost limitless given the pick-up configuration, the neck does not lend itself to bending notes. It's great that Dave's playing pleases many of you, perhaps as being somewhat more "authentic," but he never was the lead guitarist of the Beach Boys, other than Mike's touring band. He's a fine rhythm player and probably adequate for Mike's touring Boys.
But he's out of the county fair circuit now and in the big leagues; I think he needs to up his game or share the opportunities more frequently with the several more talented players on the stage.

Carl is playing a bass, trust me: I have other frames like this where the 4 tuning pegs are more visible :)

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/cw4.jpg)

Are you aware of Dave's studio and live credits from the late 60's to late '70's? Delaney and Bonnie, Leon Russell, Warren Zevon, T-Bone Burnett, Delbert McClinton, The Moon, Colours, Joe C*cker etc... He played lead on all of those projects. He hasn't been a rhythm player since '63, and that designation was purely a Murry Wilson assignment, as Carl and Dave's orig. guitar teacher the late John Maus (John Walker of the Walker Brothers) has stated clearly in interviews that David was ahead of Carl in guitar ability, but never allowed to show it in the studio due to Murry's control of the situation. When the Beach Boys played live in those first years it was a different story, David and Carl traded leads, and I have at least one review that states David was the only musician in the early Beach Boys who was skilled on his instrument. Nothing here meant to put Carl down, David absolutely loved his playing, and from sitting and playing guitars with David myself I can vouch for his ability to emulate Carl's style like no one else I've heard. Not to argue, or drag out the thread, you have your opinion, that's fine, however I'm wondering about the context and perspective you are coming from...with such certainty the other guitar players on that stage are David's superiors. They are all great, but in the context of guitar history none of them have done a fraction of what he has. It would seem a minimum of respect should be afforded David despite your disappointment with what you saw in Berkeley. That is unless you buy into the long debunked myth that Dave was a quick fill-in with no part in the Beach Boys architecture. If that is indeed the case then you have some knowledge to gain.

Isn't there something on one of the early Beach Boy albums to the effect that if music gets too perfect it's not authentic ?

Seems I recall reading that. It still rings true.

I don't want flawless, letter perfect readings, everytime. It's not FUN when it gets to that point.

Yes, I see that now. Interesting pix...thanks.

I'm loving this thread now, BTW.  An incipient flamewar bitchfest gets headed off by lots of incredibly detailed, knowledgable, and photo-reference-filled discussion of deep-level trivia.  That's the exact opposite of the way message-board discussions are supposed to go!  Sometimes this board really amazes me.  :-)

Have a beer on me, folks,
Jon Blum

Can anyone attempt a track by track catalogue of what DM is playing on guitar on the 7 songs attributing him?  I want to celebrate his every fill, hook, noodle, and solo, but I don't want to confuse him with Baxter or anyone else.

For example, on the title track:  he's playing the 3-time "cluck a cluck" rhythm on the first verse, and he's playing the languid response fills after "cruising at 7" and "push button heaven" and at the parallel parts in the next verse.

It's he playing the plaintive lines around the lyrics in Summer's Gone.

Etc.

I am guessing. Anyone need to know as I do?

 :afro What does incipient mean ?

"Developing".

Yeah, it got heated, but it coulda gotten way worse than it did.  Lots of photos of amps headed that off!

Cheers,
Jon Blum

"developing" ah... yes... a marvelous word. Right up there with ubiquitous.

Example: The photo-lab is incipient my pictures!   ::) eesh, no, that's doesn't work.  :lol

But yeah, the Beach Boy gear pix salvaged the thread and the day (thankfully).  ;)

Yes, I was at both shows and noted Dave's evolved work on DYWTD, and I agree with the ever learned Jon that this freshness and originality and artistic play are part of the new freedom that all the BB are celebrating and sharing. I am so happy for Dave that I cannot put it into words; I would not have attended thee shows now listened to the album 10 times at day nor communed with all of you board members unless he were part of it.  Poetic justice, epic convention, classical archetype:  all these narratological imperatives require David, and I cannot believe they have all been fulfilled.

David rules. I'd love to see David break down more of those songs as he did in the PBS special with Surfer Girl and Surfin USA. Carl and David's guitar playing (and sometimes Al's bass playing) should be praised.