The Smiley Smile Message Board

Of course the Beach Boys are arguably one of the best and most critically and commercially accepted and respected American bands of the rock era. But I really can't help thinking that a lot of the reason why the average person doesn't look at them as "revolutionary" like bands such as the Beatles or Led Zeppelin is because they were not ever really known for playing their own instruments. The fact that none of them (except Brian) are ever individually credited for much at all. You never see any of them individually on any lists for Greatest (Drummer, Guitarist, Songwriter) which kinda leads me to believe that even tho the music itself may be respected, that they as a band in all are not universally accepted as a huge band (like the Beatles are). The Beatles did of course use session musicians but all the drums, bass, and guitar and production techniques were done by them. Or any other band really, I just say the Beatles because of their extensive popularity with basically everyone. But do you know what I mean? Do you agree?

The Beach Boy are a boy band who dinnint even play there own instruments!

I know what you mean, but don't agree.

I don't know what you mean, but i agree.

Not really related, but this reminded me of something.

A couple days ago, I played Smile for my grandmother. She liked it, but looked really confused the whole time. I asked her why, and she says "did they play all those instruments?" After explaining the Wrecking Crew to her, Today! and Pet Sounds (which, amazingly, she didn't know about) she looked kinda disappointed. She owns a lot of old BB vinyl, but it's mainly 45s and LDC/SG/SS/Endless Summer.

So the general fan base might not even have thought about it.

No.  I doubt the audience they were playing to in the sixties even cared.  As far as today is concerned, The Wrecking Crew is still highly respected by music fans and it's understood what they brought to the records of The Beach Boys and many of their contemporaries.  It would be ridiculous to assume that music fans think less of these bands because they utilized the best musicians available to them to enhance their records.  As far as casual music fans, you can file them under the first group of folks I spoke of.  Most casual fans don't spend time dissecting who played what on "Wouldn't It Be Nice".  They either enjoy the song or they don't.

I'm not sure that people necessarily thought about the fact that the Boys weren't playing on those records. Even if so, you'd have to discount an ENORMOUS amount of music in the 60s if you took umbrage every time the Wrecking Crew played on the tracks. Their presence didn't hurt, say, Simon and Garfunkel any, right? Besides which, for people who saw the BBs live at the time, it's not as if they were just standing like a barber shop quartet with a bunch of backing tracks.

I think if they weren't respected as musicians, it's because they were mediocre musicians, plain and simple. They weren't bad, by any stretch, and at times could really cook (the Rieley era springs to mind). But the reason people respected Led Zeppelin was not just because they played their instruments, but because they could PLAY their instruments, you know? To be frank, The Beatles weren't amazing musicians either, in terms of being virtuosos at their instruments. George developed into a quite magnificent guitarist, but was never really a Guitar Hero (that perception has gradually changed in the last decade, particularly after his death). They did in fact use session musicians quite regularly, yes, but it was only to play the instruments they didn't already play themselves. That said, nothing they did instrumentally was terribly flashy, which is really what leads people to think of musicians as virtuosos. Pete Townshend isn't actually technically a great guitarist, but he's got more flash than anyone else, so the perception is that he's an amazing player. The only BB who played with flash was Denny.

I think people put the emphasis on the right thing with the BBs: the vocals. I personally have never heard a blend like that before or since, and it's impossible to impersonate. The sound of the records was superb, of course, because of the musicians, extraordinary imagination on Brian's part, and terrific songwriting to begin with. But the band's legacy as a unit is and probably should be the vocals, not how well they play.

I'm not sure any of that made sense, but it's late and my brain is addled.

With all due respect how old are you?  You just made me really feel old right now but I guess it's time I accepted that the generation that grew up listening to The Beach Boys are now finding themselves as grandparents.  Man, mind bender.

But Led Zeppelin are terrible :'(

i think Brian's loss of voice made a bigger dent in the band's popularity.

Maybe not among music fans but he was certainly heralded as one by his peers.  In fact it's ironic that the people that Harrison had the hardest time currying favor from was Lennon and McCartney.  Clapton, Dylan, members of The Band and tons of his other sixties contemporaries all held him in extremely high esteem and that way I've heard Clapton talk about Hari since his death, it's obvious to me that the man who many regard as the greatest guitarist ever holds Harrison in the highest esteem one could possibly hold someone as a peer.

In addition (and I love relating this story), during the nineties Tom Petty and Dave Stewart would often visit Harrison at Friar Park and often their visits would end up with late night jam sessions in Harrison's living room.  During one of these impromptu jam session, Harrison apparently began showing his chops on guitar, literally blowing everyone in the room away, to the point when he concluded playing, Petty asked him "Why haven't you ever done anything like that on any of your records" to which Hari responded "Well Tom, that kinda of stuff is Eric's gig".

George was an excellent player, able to play rockabilly licks with the best of them back in the early days, and with a great sense of melody as the years went on. Like I said, he wasn't flashy. He didn't play to get attention, you know? He wasn't Yngwie Malmsteen or anything. But his playing had a delicacy which made you almost take for granted how technically splendid he was. He could certainly play a blistering solo, although he almost never did (the solo on the album version of "Let It Be" is a rare example), because he always played whatever suited the song overall. That's what The Beatles were really great at doing (much as Brian was able to do). Nothing in the arrangements ever called attention to itself; it served the song as a whole.

and that is why I've always rated him as a better musician than Yngwie Malmsteen, Tony Iommi or any of the other guitar gods that the heavy metal set worships.  I'm not saying they are wrong in appreciating what they do as their camp does have a valid opinion but just as valid is the camp that subscribes to the "Don't Bore Us Get To The Chorus" mentality.  

I think typically it corresponds with what the main focus of the people in the band happens to be. To my mind, people like Jimmy Page were musicians first, songwriters second (or even third). Brian is a songwriter first, singer second, musician third, so for him that's the approach, as a songwriter, and everything is in service to the overall sound. George was definitely a musician first, but so much of his trade was learned while he was with the Beatles, who were songwriters first, musicians second, that he ended up approaching his playing as if it were another lead melodic instrument, like another voice. Or in some cases, it really was the primary voice, with his own singing coming second. Would that he had taken that approach with the Dark Horse album. ;)

George Martin was the producer, not the Beatles.  They would have been lost without him.

I agree

The entire premise is flawed because of the huge over-crediting of the Wrecking Crew as replacements for the Beach Boys by journalists and fans who really have no idea who played on what. The Beach Boys played on far more of their hits and far more of their classic tracks than the Wrecking Crew did. They often worked in a setting with session musicians used as auxiliary but not as total replacements for them. Yes Pet Sounds is 95% Wrecking Crew but there is no other Beach Boys LP that has that distinction. One of the true crimes of the written history of the Beach Boys and the general consensus of fans who think of themselves as in the know is the lack of credit the Beach Boys receive as musicians on the tracks they actually played on. There is a Wrecking Crew movie and book out there right now spreading mis-information regarding the Beach Boys role as musicians on many of their hits. All I can say is that time will wear this down because truth is in the session tapes...not in flimsy anecdotes and myth.

The thing is, the Beach Boys have always been known as two things -- a rock band, yes, but also as a vocal harmony group. Even the guys who were the best / most charismatic players (Carl and Dennis) were more than willing to play down their technical skills in order to play up their vocals. Carl could have been renowned as a guitar whiz -- but he ended up concentrating more on production and singing.

The other thing was, they were a song-based group. Not a playing-based group. This was something they had in common with the Beatles, which is why the Beatles (with the exceptions already noted) aren't really known as virtuoso musicians either. Neither group had to be, because the composition was ultimately the most important thing. Not jamming, not solos, not effects -- just the songs.

The thing is, this notion of the boys being a vocal group, and of being all about the songs, both of those things are really integral to their identity. So would we rather know of them as a group with great players, or as stunning harmony singers with matchless singles? I'd choose the latter, I think.

I think it hurt them terribly and has caused near irreparable damage to their reputation and legacy and it did great damage to all involved........ I can't tell you how many times I've heard friends laugh off the Beach Boys as basically N-Sync of their day who didn't even play on their own records. Some people can't ever get past that "fact" and just forget about The Beach Boys altogether.... Now, someone who CAN get past that idea and has the patience to overcome all the various Beach Boys related perception issues, they come to not care one bit (it also doesn't hurt that they know how much the BBs DID contribute instrumentally) .... I think things have turned for the better recently thanks (especially) to Stebbins and others, but it was a hard hurdle in the uber cred conscious 90's/David Leaf era and when Pet Sounds was the only cool BBs album.

Well, then it's a double-edged sword, cause without the session musicians who knows what Pet Sounds or "Good Vibrations" would've sounded like? And since those records are a huge part of their legacy, I have to wonder if they'd have been better or worse off in the long run if Brian had tried to record those songs with the band themselves. Frankly, I don't think they would have done it. I think that basically the SMiLE scenario would've happened a year earlier. And we'd have no Sgt. Pepper to boot, because Paul wouldn't have heard things like the bass harmonica all over PS to inspire him to expand the Beatles' palette.

To my mind, any tarnishing of their legacy lies entirely at the feet of each member of the band itself, not the session musicians. The SMiLE debacle, hodgepodge albums like 20/20, the whole Brian's Back era in the mid-70s, the bloody hula girls, the striped shirts or the hats or Mike in a damn turban or Mike half naked in the 80s, the endless rewrites of "California Girls" on each new album since the late 70s, Full House, SIP, the Manson thing, Denny's entire descent into addiction, the public's perception of Brian as basically some kind of extra-terrestrial, and dozens of others I just can't think of right now. They all contributed to the reputation of the band overall as being perhaps beneath critical engagement. But those are the things which ultimately make them so fascinating and worthy of discussion. They're so so flawed, but capable of achieving heights which have yet to be topped.

I really don't know about that. About half the time someone says "The Beach Boys? Really?" to me, it's the stuff you named. The other half is "They didn't even play their own instruments" or, at best, "They didn't even play on their own records."

I see what you're saying and consider it a distinct possibility, as for Pet Sounds either never being completed or sounding so different with the Beach Boys playing that it would have derailed their legacy (I know that's probably not what you meant) but then again, Brian did manage to get "That's Not Me" in the can with The Beach Boys (and an auxiliary guy or two to a lesser extent) and it just so happens to be one of the most unusual and exciting arrangement on the that album (IMHO). Pet Sounds might have taken longer to finish with the Boys, but there's no reason to assume it wouldn't have happened......

And dare I say: in relation to the litany of Beach Boys offenses you listed: some of those things may have never come to be had the Beach Boys (other than Brian) gotten more respect and had been looked at as more of a typical band/unit..... I mean, when Dennis died, weren't there a whole lot of write-ups describing him as not having played on the records and with songwriting credits/lead vocals being far and few between?

"Mike half naked in the 80s"???

When did this happen?

Please tell OSD to post the footage!!!!

"Did Brian's use of session musicians hurt the Beach Boys popularity?"

No, because back then, no-one knew and fewer cared.

You know what I mean. Those shows when he wore like shorts and maybe a lei and nothing else. Oh, wait. He wore a trucker hat, of course.

Agreed, Andrew.

I appreciate that the Wrecking Crew story is being told today, not because of any BB role they played, but, the role they  played in the music industry during those years, in general.  It is interesting to see the number of "greats" who emerged from that group of session musician, such as Glenn Campbell, Leon Russell, Herb Alpert (I think) etc.

Given the restrictve demands via contract, it would have been impossible to tour, learn and master new arrangements worthy of recording quality given their time constraints. Their hallmark remains their vocal blended style and lyric-musical composition concepts, which captured followers for over 50 years.

Back then it was the industry standard, but, the book and movie are told from "their" (Wrecking Crew) perspective.  And given credibility, accordingly.  ;)

This is right along the lines of what I was going to say.

But on a separate note to the original post, that points to a larger issue with musical appreciation - that its limited to playing instruments or singing on the track. Most people don't know or care about the production side of music (which now is like non-existent). The Beach Boys are amazing because of Brian's superb arranging and producing. They could have had any reasonably talented bands playing in the studio and have been just fine.

I don't know if it hurt their popularity back in the day, but it sure kept me from giving their music a chance for years. When I was younger, I thought that real rock bands play on their own records. Actually I still think that way, but it doesn't keep me from loving the Beach Boys anymore.

Anyway, I don't think session musicians hurt their mass appeal, but the hipster/cred thing is another thing. The age of rock virtuosos was dawning, and I'd figure guys who didn't play on their albums weren't thought of very highly. And weren't there some articles asking in a negative sense if The Boys are "just Brian's puppets" or something?

The history of the session musicians is one of my favorite topics, I enjoy researching and discussing and everything else about all those musicians who played on some of my favorite records. The old joke is something about having a list of favorite drummers and they were all named Hal Blaine...and this continues to become more accurate as I'm listening to those Top 40 songs I used to hear on "Hot Hits 98" WCAU in Philly in the early-to-mid 80's (the last great era of top 40 radio culture). I'm hearing guitar solos that were some of my favorites, some very influential music which my young ears knew they liked very much but my brain had no idea who these guys were.

Now as I've read more on this stuff, a lot of those amazing solos and parts were played by - no surprise - the same core groups of on-call session guys, and some of the same names who are on my favorite 60's records too! Amazing. The same guy named Louie Shelton who played that amazing Monkees' "Valleri" solo is also playing on the J5's "I Want You Back", Boz Skaggs' "Lowdown" and that solo I used to hear on MTV and the radio: "Hello" by Lionel Richie. Then to find out another session guy - Steve Lukather - who played that awesome funk rhythm guitar all over the Thriller album is also ripping that solo on "Let's Get Physical" and literally dozens of other famous 80's chart hits and soundtrack songs.

Many, many more examples of this can be found, but these are just a few notable decade-spanning examples for the sake of the discussion and the main point:

If the record is one you enjoy, if you get inspiration from it, if there is something about it that just feels good for no reason other than it just feels good when you hear it, then the people making that record did something right in the process. The decisions made which led to that record hitting your ears and getting into your soul, possibly, were the right ones made at exactly the right time. getting that kind of result can be like hitting the lottery, considering how many really, *really* good and talented people are working to reach that same goal and competing with each other for that mythical "hit record". And when someone does get a hit record that lasts, that feels good, all of that, the decisions made in the process were correct.

And ultimately, if the record works on many levels, or even more basic of an emotion if you just *like* that record when you hear it, does it matter all that much if the guy you see drumming on stage wasn't the guy who played it in the studio? If that were the standard applied, a majority of hits we hear from the 60's would be disqualified...actually take that into the 70's, 80's, 90's, and beyond, because it isn't always a case of the guys on the album cover making every note on the record. With digital editing and correction tools, not to mention drum samples and the like, it is even less at this point. If it ever was.

My point is if the record is one you enjoy, it really doesn't matter and if the record is great, perhaps the decision to use certain musicians over others was the right one for that specific situation. And the results would serve to back that up.

I think what hurt the Beach Boys popularity more than featuring studio players on certain tracks was the Beach Boys themselves at various points in their career. The classic records will always be the strongest and most durable part of their legacy and popularity, as well they should.

GF2002 - brilliant and to the point. If you enjoy the music, the rest is of little consequence. It is too bad that there is still a double standard for high profile people.  Private individuals can mess up, learn and grow as humans;  icons can't. 

They are robbed in a certain sense of that experience because it ends up as "news" to be debated ad nauseum by the self-righteous in society.  They are mortals, like the rest of us; but, with an immortal gift of music they shared. 

Their "blending method" of vocals and composition/lyrics, is what sets them apart, more than who played the "accompaniments."  ;)

I think the broad brush Beach Boys/Wrecking Crew association that so many lazy writers have perpetuated is sickening. They take one well-worn anecdote like when Hal relates after being asked if Dennis had a problem being replaced by him in the studio and Hal replies, no, in fact "he hired me" to play on his solo album. Then it is automatically projected that Hal was the drummer on Pacific Ocean Blue. But if you go through the sessions tapes one by one to fact check that...it turns out Hal played on one POB track, or maybe one and a half. The Wrecking Crew movie touts I Get Around as a Wrecking Crew session, yeah I guess if Dennis (drums), Carl (guitar), Al (bass), Brian (keyboards) are Wrecking Crew then its true. The Wrecking Crew book lists Surfer Girl as a Wrecking Crew session, not a single WC musician on that one. These are newly created historical documents that have false information that fans use to (in their mind) learn from. I don't know how many times I've told people that Dennis is the drummer on Don't Worry Baby or Wendy or When I Grow Up To Be A Man or Dance Dance Dance or You're So Good To Me and people argue that it can't be him because he never played on anything after the second album. But yeah, if you listen to the session its him. Carl is on guitar on like 80% of the Beach Boys recorded work. The whole Beach Boys replaced by session players meme needs to be dialed down, waaaay down. yes the Crew played on a number of classic Beach Boys sessions, GV's, Rhonda, Cal Girls, Pet Sounds...they deserve all the credit in the world for the sessions they played on. But get f'n real about it if you're serious. The Beach Boys, as musicians, created the majority of the guitar, bass, drums and keyboards on their classic body of work. Period.

Agreed and add to that to this day few people care about that stuff.  We on this forum are the exceptions to the rule not the majority.  The majority only cares if the music sounds good and obviously The Beach Boys have a treasure trove full of hit records.

Growing up with the BBs gave me a different perspective. Back in the early days of the BBs, we fans KNEW that the Beach Boys played their own instruments. I was also aware that Brian had started using some of the Wrecking Crew on the mid-'60s albums, but also that Carl was playing on many of those recordings, and aware that the BBs started playing on their own recordings post-Smile. I read all the fine print on their albums -- still do. :)

Totally agree. This would make excellent fodder for a thread.

Jon - that is probably correct, as well.  But, really, I only look back to my own voyage with the music, seeing them live at 14.  What did I know? They sounded great onstage; they sang well.  It is now, so long after the fact, that this whole "sessions story" which should be told, has emerged.  I have not read the book but saw the film which featured a section with Cher as a representative of what she and Sonny did and how it related to their work.  I liked that they told the story of who the NY music scene ending up in LA.  That was interesting to me, now.  Not then. There was a war, and all sorts of important stuff.  Who had the time, or the inclination?  Passing algebra was more on the radar, for me.

Beyond the individual Session Musician politics, which seems to have also emerged, it is of no consequence.  And, I do believe that the BB's did a chunk of the work.  The session musicians want their story told.  Right now the Boys are "hot" and they want "in."  And their story should be "told" but, not, "embellished."

The core BB fans, were teens in the 1960's and it seems to me that they were more concerned about the "product" (the song) and not the "process" (the studio) and at this point, it is interesting, but not as "material," I don't think, as some would have it.  The sound was coming out of a 2" speaker on AM radio.  It just wasn't that sophisticated for teens in the 60's.

I don't see what I matters that no one knew "back then" if it's come to be an accepted "fact" in this day and age that The Beach Boys were not a real band and the wrecking crew played on everything! I mean, people still believe this! Plus, we're talking about if it affected their legacy or not! We're not asking if it stopped OSD from buying any of their albums back in the day (which, of course it didn't). But there are also a lot of folks my parent's age who did scoffedf at The Beach Boys back in the day as sh*tty musicians and Brian's puppets. In fact, they're still saying such things today and it's almost impossible to sway them with facts.

It is difficult to get my head around any notion that the BB's are a "fake" band.  It seems to be accepted that they played live gigs from the get-go.  How can anyone substantiate otherwise? Is there tweaking done by the studio and record company?  Of course, to maximize the effects.  I know zero about the industry.  But I do know fans, older than me, who have never stopped supporting their music, live or buying LP's.  I sat at a Wrecking Crew screening where there was an average age of 60+ and who seemed more interested in the historic part they played "pun intended" in music, "in general" and not the Beach Boys, "in particular." This looked like an "old hippie" crowd, singing with ALL the music, not just the Boys. 

The emerging theory is that they are must be all frauds. 

Every musician whose production including any Session Musicians is a fake?

Sorry, I can't subscribe to that theory.

Much guitar was done by Carl and Dennis did organ. The problems was that the bass parts were much harder to record than The Beatles bass lines and Brian was not really the bass man, Bruce was and he was good but not proficient. Brian was doing all the recording in big takes, so he could not play. I wonder why Al was not doing rythem more... Was he less available than Carl?

Al plays bass on way more Beach Boys classics than either Brian or Bruce. Catch A Wave, Little Saint Nick, Fun Fun Fun, Don't Worry Baby, I Get Around, All Summer Long, Little Honda, Wendy, Don't Back Down, When I Grow Up To Be A Man, She Knows Me Too Well, You're So Good To Me are just some of the Beach Boys recordings that feature Al on bass. In fact he played bass on more early BB's stuff than guitar. The reason is that Brian played keyboards on most of that stuff leaving the bass duties available to Al during the tracking sessions.

This whole myth about the Beach Boys not playing their own instruments on the records, blah blah blah, is so tiresome and also maddening because so many people believe it. it also begs the question - who played them on stage? Hal Blaine and Carole Kay in masks?  Yes, we know they used session players s the recording progressed,, but not nearly as early on or in the numbers some believe. As to the Beatles, obviously they were more experienced players by the time they became the Beatles, and did put a little more emphasis on the standard "rock band" instruments in the mix well before they got to the orchestration.  Someone said somewhere, years ago, have no recollection who or where I read it, that the main difference between the Boys and the Beatles was that if you pulled the Beatles' voices out in front of the mix a bit you'd have the Beach Boys sound.  i can see - or hear - that to a degree. But as a couple of posters here have said, their instruments were not overpowering in style or flash (except for perhaps Paul the frustrated lead guitarist playing every note on his bass), with George being one of the tastiest lead man ever. Short little solos, a couple of hot licks, and back to the verse. Perfect, the emphasis on quality not quantity.

Yes! That is the kind of playing I like! Jeff Baxter said "anybody can shred", what's important is playing what is right for the song. The Beatles and Beach Boys records are perfect examples of that philosophy.

Amen

It seems to be a losing battle. I mean, people who like the Beach Boys, who are 'fans' all know it's true, but the rest of the world--casual fans and non-fans are simply not going to be swayed. There is simply a lot of (false) evidence stating that the Beach Boys did not/could not play. If you look on Beach Boy threads on other sites you find the myth not only perpetuated but stuck to in the face of testimony by experts like Jon Stebbins. The Beach Boys made some GREAT records. The only way people can really accept the greatness amid the cheese that is the Beach Boys is by rationaliziing it by saying, "well, they didn't play on the records' or 'Brian Wilson is the genius, the rest are just along for the ride and have no talent(as if being the greatest harmony vocal group of ALL FUCKING TIME means 'no talent.') It's sad and despicable but I'm afraid this myth will outlive us all.

There used to be a fairly ingrained myth that Dennis Wilson was the "least talented" of the Beach Boys. More recently and more ingrained there was a myth that David Marks was no more than a face on an album cover...and that he had nothing to do with the genesis of the Beach Boys. Now nearly everyone is saying how essential Dave is to this reunion, what a great musician he is, and how happy they are for him. A majority of people used to tell me he was a joke and basically nothing. Misplaced perceptions can change when strong evidence is presented to the contrary. The truth is the truth.

Dennis Wilson = second best composer/arranger/producer in the Beach Boys
David Marks = best musician in the Beach Boys
Beach Boys = played the instruments on the majority of their hits and classic material

These are facts

What about Brian as a musician? Seems he plays alot of instruments well, so what makes Dave better?

Yeah, you'd think just his vocal kung fu would trump the admirable surf guitar. Marks is certainly the funnest, most entertaining musician on this tour, tho! I love that he gets the chance to throw all those licks in! I can't even make out what the other 34907853957 guitars are doing, but his has serious character!

Keep on bustin' those myths, Jon!

I think really the perception comes from Pet Sounds and the build-up to SMiLE, where a lot of the press coverage emphasized that Brian was the mastermind with his dynamo team of musicians and the Boys were his backup singers, essentially. It probably doesn't help to one degree or another that the albums which followed immediately after SMiLE fell apart were pretty sparse in terms of production, relatively speaking. To my mind, the biggest mistake of Smiley Smile is that it included the elaborate "Heroes and Villains" and "Good Vibrations" alongside songs which sounded like the guys were just messing around in the sandbox and didn't realize they were being recorded. Then of course Wild Honey and Friends were also sort of homespun affairs by and large. Awesome albums, no question, but just plain more laid back and less ambitious than PS or "Good Vibrations". So if you go from complicated drum and percussion parts, for instance, on "I'm Waiting for the Day" or "Good Vibrations", and then get an album with a bunch of bongos and nothing else, it's hard for your first instinct not to be "Oh, well, that's cause they don't have Hal on this. Obviously Dennis can't play." I'm not saying that's accurate, cause it's not. The Boys were perfectly capable of playing their instruments, but they weren't amazing instrumentalists; they were amazing singers who also played instruments pretty well.

Personally, I feel that if SMiLE had been completed and THEN they released something like Friends, that would've served them well, because it would have felt more like a purposeful shift in direction. Basically the same kind of deliberate scaling-back found in the productions of Plastic Ono Band or McCartney after the symphony of Abbey Road. Or Paul Simon's self-titled coming after Bridge Over Troubled Water. Or Dylan's John Wesley Harding after Blonde on Blonde. Instead, because SMiLE was unfinished after all that anticipation, presumably the perception was that these guys didn't know what they were doing in the studio without having the cadre of session guys featured on Today! through Pet Sounds.

Someone with as much time logged as a Beach Boys fan as you would obviously know that Brian is a great arranger, composer, producer, leader, harmony, melody genius, but not very advanced on any instrument...and when I say "musician" I am referring to the level of sophistication on one's instrument. David is a trained musician (Berklee School of Music, Boston Conservatory) he's been tutored by masters (Vincente Gomez, Morris Mizrahi, Avrim David, Margaret Chaloff, Alan Silvestri) and is a near virtuoso in styles ranging from classical to jazz to blues to rock. Surf music is child's play to him, literally, since he had it mastered as a 12 year old. No way I'm saying Dave is in Brian's league as a creator, but as a musician on his instrument he's the best in the band. Beach Boys fans have seen very little of his ability. As a musician Bruce would be number two, also a very good musician.

Do you mean the school in Boston? That's Berklee. I think grads actually spend up to 30% of their time correcting misspellings of it. If only they knew that when it was founded!

As a Berklee grad I can not only vouch for that but also say how often in conversation people think "Berklee" is actually "U. Cal. Berkeley" in California. The name comes from the founder's son Lee Berk, who eventually took over the presidency of the school from his father and was still president when I was there.

I think there are a few entries in things like the Pet Sounds Sessions booklet that some of the session musicians went to Schillinger House - that was the school's name before being renamed Berklee.

Of course I mean Berklee. Its spelled right all 63 times it's mentioned in my book about David...because I have a copy editor who earns her pay.

Muahhaha! Nicely put. I think I'm just conditioned due to going out with a Berklee grad for most of the 00s. Fabulous musician, but man -- she just didn't get Sister Ray. Ah well.

Unfortunately my fingers are conditioned from growing up near Cal.

True, Brian can handle a number of instruments, but more as a composer than a performer or player.  Is he a better pianist than David is a guitarist?  No, but he didn't have to be in order to compose all those songs. It's a different standard. One could say the same regarding Bruce.  Hal Blaine is attributed as saying Bruce, with his years of training and talent,  was the best session piano player he'd ever worked with. Brian doesn't have those same playing skills, that we know of at least, but neither Bruce nor David will  give you any argument as to who the better composer /arranger is.

Adding more to this topic, do you think many have an opinion about the Beach Boys as musicians when they see the presentation on the current tour?

It is understood that most bands have backing musicians. However, if The 4 Beach Boys playing on this tour - Dave and Al (guitar), Brian (piano) and Bruce (keyboards) were not plugged in, would the sound be any different? I am not sure. Maybe Dave's guitar is higher in the mix than the backing band?

Or, how would the sound be if there were no backing band except for a bassist and drummer? Obviously thin, but would be curious to hear how much they are playing. Imagine getting a soundboard recording of Bruce's keyboard!

As far as I can tell, most of Brian's piano playing is as a rhythm instrument, almost strictly chord-based. Other than the boogie-woogie based songs on the early records, where he did a little bit of soloing (which, even then, was mostly chord based), you listen to the piano/keyboard parts on BB albums and the parts all sound like the opening to "Message Man": dun-dun-dun-dun, dun-dun-dun-dun, dun-dun-dun-dun. Sometimes he'd do arpeggios or maybe a riff or two, or if he was overdubbing a lot like on Love You it'd be more intricate because he did multiple passes to arrive at it. Sometimes his left hand would get a little fancy (the run-down during the coda of "Surf's Up", for instance) but he wasn't throwing all kinds of fancy Ben Folds-style business in there. He just isn't that type of player. He uses it to compose, and if he's proficient at anything on it, it's finding strange chord combinations, or unusual root notes to change the color of a chord (again, "Surf's Up" is loaded with that kind of thing). I suspect he plays this way because his frame of mind is always about harmony, hearing multiple notes at the same time to see how they compliment or contrast with each other.

As for David, I dearly hope that if there's another BB album after this, Brian takes full advantage of his abilities to enhance the songs. He could be a real asset to him in terms of coloring the arrangements. I picture Scott struggling with the Spanish guitar fills on the DVD of TLOS and think to myself that Dave could do that sort of thing.

I think when you look at The Beach Boys in comparison to other bands, if The cult of Brian wasn't so rabid, ALL of the Beach Boys (yes, including Mike) would be considered geniuses.... As in, if any of the Beach Boys contributions to The Beach Boys had been for any other band, they'd have gotten A LOT more respect. But when it comes to The Beach Boys people get all messed up in the head and seem to assume that Brian is the only guy in the world who can come up with a chord sequence. If just serves to throw perception out of whack about anyone else's contributions.

That's putting a little bit too fine a point on it, I think. Yes, the cult of Brian gives undue credit to his mediocre work and unfairly classifies Carl's songs as second-rate. But Brian did do a fair deal more than come up with some chords. That said, if the band existed with, say, Dennis as the chief songwriter, then who knows? Perhaps they'd have been popular as well and Dennis would've gotten more credit for being a really excellent songwriter. It's sort of the same thing with John Lennon. Because he was the "genius" of the group, many fans ignore the dreadful material he released and the fact that he was basically an impossible human being, and focus only on his classic material, as if it's the whole story.

Except, they wouldn't have ever started to make contributions anywhere else, because they'd have never had Brian's groundbreaking to get any of them started in the first place

That's not necessarily true and impossible to assume. It is much more logical to assume Al would have pursued folk music and Carl and Dave would have kept playing guitar and likely formed a band or joined a band or bands. Dennis and Mike? Who knows. But we do know Mike was bugging Brian to start a band..... It's impossible to say, but groundbreaking mojo of the Brian sort has never been necessary for there to be musical success on whatever level. And I certainly don't mean to denigrate Brian or all he's done. Absolutely not. I'm just saying that Brian being Brian has never had to come at the expense of recognizing anyone else in his band's talents. They are all amazing singers! Mike is a great lyricist and song collaborator. Dennis was as good as Brian (and even better in some respects) and Carl was damn good as well and Bruce/Al were more than capable. Brian being a genius shouldn't put fantastic songs/contributions by the other guys in some lesser category just because Brian gets called a genius.

I'm with you in praising Mike as a lyricist. In some alternate version of the world I like to think there's a TLOS with Mike lyrics all over it.

Two words: Endless Summer

Well Brian did get 52 or something on the best vocalists on Rolling Stone's list.
I remember reading Carol Kaye argue that Brian losing his permission to use the Wrecking Crew had a hand in their declining popularity and I agree completely. The Beach Boys had world class musicians and that was a complete benefit. Pet Sounds would not have been able to give the Beach Boys their renewed respect if it was played by the Beach Boys. I'm sorry but they just weren't the greatest instrumentalists.

Brian never "lost permission" to use session guys. When he wanted to record with them, he used them. They're on nearly all of his post-Smile BB albums, to greater and lesser extents. (Heck, he even has a wrecking crew guy on Love You!)

Darn Catch A Wave biography wrong again. Thanks for correcting me. But my opinion on the beneficence of the Wrecking Crew on their career stands.

More than just one guy...

Steve Douglas on sax was the only one that came to mind. Who am I missing? (I mean, I'd guess some are on Good Time, but that one's old ...)

I think the Boys could have cranked out Pet Sounds on the basic instruments if they had the session guys handle the brass and woodwinds. There are songs they did that many people assumed that the Wrecking Crew did based on how good they sound.

I'm gonna double back to my earlier opinion that it's not a matter of whether or not PS could have been recorded by the BBs, at least the track bed. The question is whether or not they WOULD. I mean, Brian got grief because side 2 of Today! was too depressing. He got sh*t from Mike about the PS songs being too serious and down. I feel like because the boys knew they needed a product and Brian had all that work done, they just went ahead with the vocals, but if they'd be there to influence the song selection, tone of the lyrics, any of that stuff, I'm convinced the album wouldn't be the same. Firstly, Mike probably would've convinced Brian to let him rewrite the lyrics instead of using Tony's words, at least on some of the tracks. Picture "You Still Believe in Me" with lyrics about cars. The two instrumentals probably wouldn't have been recorded at all. I just don't see the guys going for it, because by and large they STILL think of it as the record with GOK, WIBN, and the Sloop single from the year before, with a whole bunch of pretentious woe-is-me stuff from Brian. Same was true with SMiLE. If they'd been there during the sessions for GV, there'd be no theremin. If they'd been there for SMiLE, it would've fallen apart even sooner than it did. I can't picture the boys putting up with wearing fire helmets and being told the percussion needs to sound more like jewelry. Or doing take after take explaining to Denny that he's supposed to be putting the friggin' fire out by hitting his toms. And I doubt Brian would've even tried to go through those exercises with the boys. The only reason he felt liberated to be so adventurous with those tracks was because he was surrounded by people who had suggestions, yes, but who didn't criticize or belittle the work he was doing. If we consider that at least part of the reason SMiLE was shelved was because of nit-picking and confusion from the rest of the band, or how stuff like "Til I Die" or basically all of Adult Child was likewise rejected by them, we know there's a proud history of discouraging his flights of fancy within the group. I don't know, maybe I'm totally off-base here (and I encourage those with far more knowledge about this than me to say as much), but I just don't see PS coming out to sound basically the same but just happening to have different musicians on the tracks.

Migliori, as well.

Off topic, sorry : Once, in the 80's, a soundboard recording of Linda McCartney's keyboards, and vocals, leaked out.  It kind of showed her to be off, a lot.  It was really embarassing and a big deal was made of it, which I always thought was pretty crappy, she wasn't even really a musician, attacking a guy's wife like that was kind of low, everybody knows she was on stage for Paul, not for her own ego. 

Anyways, I digress.  Personally I don't think the Beach Boys are playing much of anything on stage, although David is obviously playing leads from time to time. 

There are some sort-of factual errors here.

They WERE there for GV sessions, and Mike played the theremin part on stage with much fun.  And of course, they participated, minus Mike, in the tracking session for "That's Not Me" with no problems at all.  Carl and Dennis played on plenty of Smile tracks with apparently no complaints.

Lyrically, there is room for debate, but instrumentally, the boys including Mike never had any complaints.  Also, these guys were used to recording tracks without any idea of what the lyrics were.  Of course it wouldn't sound exactly the same, but the heavy presence of the Beach Boys as musicians on both Today and Summer Days suggests they could have gone on just fine in a similar vein.

Gotcha. I think Migliori is on BW88 as well. I know Douglas is on Metal Beach.

The notion of Mike taking over Smile or Pet Sounds with lyrics about cars or surfing is absurd by that point in time. One need only listen to "Good Vibrations", Smiley Smile, Wild Honey etc. etc. etc. (not to mention most lyrics on Today! and Summer Days) to realize even Mike was kind of over that stuff as a lyricist until the mid 70s when even Brian was on board with the oldies thing (sans "Do It Again", but the whole song aims for that).

Yer point still stands, though. I don't know if it really would have went down like that, as not everyone in the group said they were unsure of the newer material. Don't forget that aside from vocals, the guys do appear on several Smile tracks - Dennis playing drums on "Holidays" or organ on "Good Vibrations", for instance. There's also the fact that Brian had them doing stuff like recording in his swimming pool, recording themselves eating vegetables, laying on the ground making animal noises etc. etc. etc. around the same time. Brian was questioned by Mike and maybe others within the band, but they ultimately trusted him and went along with what he was doing regardless of what he asked. I don't think them playing the basic tracks instead of the Wrecking Crew would have changed that.

Oh, I know they were present for at least some of that material. Some of the best tracks on Today! feature the boys heavily. I'm just thinking on some of the more...I don't know, unusual or maybe introspective moments on PS, I think they'd end up sounding differently because of the input or objections of the band, and it would just plain sound different, potentially not as engaging, or different songs would've been used altogether. I mean, surely Mike was ok with the theremin on stage because the song was the biggest hit in the world, but I doubt he would've agreed to play it on the sessions. I think with GV Brian had everyone (including the Wrecking Crew) so baffled as to what the holy hell they were recording, that it was hard to object to anything when you were only privy to 30 seconds of it at a time.

And I mean, Carl and Dennis were clearly the ones who were the most inclined to follow Brian's lead in that period, right? Certainly the direction Denny's music ended up going was influenced by Brian, and not the "Chug a Lug" Brian, but the "artistic" Brian. Carl generally was more inclined to cut his brother some slack in that regard too, or else there would've been no "Mt Vernon" 45, right?

Basically I guess I'm not talking about the entire band, so much. I'm saying Mike would've passive-aggressively bullied Brian into doubting stuff like "Don't Talk" or "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times". Why you have to write such a downer, Cousin Brian?

No, of course. I was being glib because I'm one of those fans with a chip on his shoulder over Mike in general. He obviously wrote about plenty of other things on albums in that era, and even more so in the several which followed. I'm just saying, if there was grumbling over the second side of Today being a downer, and let's face it, most of PS is a downer, wouldn't the same thing have happened?

The trouble with someone like Brian to me is (and this is PURELY speculative), I can imagine him being the sort of person where all you need to do is plant the seed of doubt for it to grow and grow in his head to the point where he doesn't believe in the idea himself anymore. Something (grossly oversimplified, I admit) like this:

BW: OK, guys, so I want you to crawl around and make barnyard noises.
ML: What the hell?
BW: Yeah, it'll be more realistic if you're down there doing it, cause that's where the goats and pigs would be.
ML: Can't you just use something from Capitol's sound effects library for this?
CW: I'm sure Brian knows what he's doing.
BW (to himself): Wait...DO I know what I'm doing? No one's done this before. What if it's a terrible idea? What if I lose whatever credibility I have left? No one liked how I used all those tacet moments in "The Little Girl I Once Knew". No one bought Pet Sounds. I should just give up. (to the boys) Forget it, guys. It's a stupid idea. We'll do something else instead.
ML: No, no, Cousin Brian, we were gonna do it. We're just giving you a hard time.
BW: No, it's a terrible idea. Let's forget it.

Again, that's a gross oversimplification of the dynamic in the studio. But it's what I imagine happening based on how easily he gave up on ideas dear to him in subsequent years. He had no fighting sprit in the studio anymore, because he was probably afraid of rejection. That comes from somewhere, and it wasn't just Murray.

But Mike's role would have been the same regardless of who is playing on the record, as a non-instrumentalist.  And he certainly didn't "bully" Brian into doubting anything on the record.  I find your hypothesis strange, in this post-Mike-as-villain world in which we live.

I can actually see your ponit Keysaroze001.  I see Brian and Mike as two diffrerent personalities, I can definately see Brian taking Mike's objections or even casual comments as 'seeds' of doubt. 

The only possible difference of opinion here may be though, that in my opinion, that's an issue with Brian, not Mike.  Mike is Mike, and if Mike wasn't there, somebody else would plant the seed in Brian's head. 

I also think that's something that happened in the 60's, I don't think Brian's like that anymore. 

All of this seems contrary to fact to me.  Was there grumbling over the second side of Today?  Where is there any evidence that Brian had anything but the utmost control or belief in the music he put out in his prime?  

The loss of fighting spirit in the studio doesn't happen until well past Pet Sounds.

Oh, it's totally a fault of Brian's. Yes, if it hadn't been Mike, it would've been someone else. I think Mike just was the most likely one to even jokingly say something that might plant that seed, and as soon as Brian latches on to something like that, an "oops, lost my head" wouldn't be enough to take back the joke, you know? Brian's just too damn sensitive. It's one of his biggest flaws, but of course with out that, he wouldn't be inclined to write so many non-tough-guy songs.

As for the post-Mike-as-Villain world, I haven't moved there yet. Sorry.

I'm firmly in that world, lol, but I agree with you on the other stuff.  I also agree with Aijiji though that I think it happened later, nobody was fucking with Brian during Today, he was running things and doing a damn fine job of it. 

Well, we're here to help you get there.

I disagree that Brian was too sensitive.  What gives you that idea?  Every record through Smiley Smile bears his almost absolute imprimatur.  When his Dad got in the way, he fired him.  When the record company wanted his masters, he said, "No thanks, I'll be keeping these.  Oh, and by the way, I'll pick the studio too."  When the band wasn't sure about Smile and others thought it was a little out there he scrapped it and gave them something much stranger in Smiley Smile.  

If anything, I would argue that Brian was not sensitive enough.  He didn't understand how to deal with people sensitively and sometimes he'd steamroll them.  That, of course, contributes to his greatness on some level, too.

I think there just might be a notable difference between having questions or snickers about lyrics and taking a untied stand against them and demanding the lyrics are changed to songs about girls and cars (BTW, aren't most of the songs on Pet Sounds about girls anyway?)...... BUT, I do think that with the wrecking crew, no one questioned Brian about a damn thing, therefore he was able to work much faster and get things locked in and done when inspiration struck him. That's a big difference between corralling your friends, cousin, and brothers into not goofing off despite everyone's best intentions..... I'm just seeing the value in both sides here.

But, of course, it's that attitude from Mike that made him the group's only plausible frontman in the early years (Dennis could have arguably done it later, but that's another story), the best lead vocalist for the surf and car hits, and one of Brian's better lyricists.

Brian, I'm pretty sure, likes that attitude. He even depended on it in the early days. It's something he admired about his cousin. To have it then turned against him, though, as the years passed, must have been difficult. It's like falling in love with someone for their vocabulary, and then they use it to insult you really elaborately all the time. That would hurt! And even though that person was being true to themselves and their abilities, it would be tough.

Brian was obviously that way to an extent. A total shame. Not sure what you mean by "That comes from somewhere, and it wasn't just Murry." Brian put his heart and soul into Mount Vernon And Fairway only to have Carl say he didn't think it would work on the album. Brian flees, hurt and rejected, and stops contributing or participating completely for a short while because of it.

Rejection of an idea from Mike Love or Carl Wilson wouldn't cause such an extreme reaction in most people. Carl and Dennis disagreed over Surf's Up, so Dennis said, "f*ck you, I'm going to do something by myself." In Brian Wilson, mentally ill (and still undiagnosed, or at least very under-diagnosed) and who was brought up with the the brutal conditioning Murry put him through, the kind where rejection of something Brian did meant physical and mental abuse, is the kind of thing that creates this sort of reaction.

Considering Brian's past as a leader (which was seemingly a bit weakened over time by the mental illness), this stuff wasn't well understood by the people around Brian at the time, folks like Carl or Mike would be more likely to speak up if they weren't sure about something. You're a band, you're a family, and you're gonna disagree sooner or later (if not all the God damn time, which is pretty common). Even after all that, though, they ultimately trusted Brian's direction and decisions. Someone may have said "Brian, this whole making-animal-noises thing is a bit weird, don't you think?" but minutes later had said, "Okay, let's give it a shot," and were on the floor mooing their ass off. Brian's decision to shelve Smile is a very complex thing that can't be pinpointed to one reason, too.

That is interesting.  I think it's worth saying too, that hell it's hard to get along with anybody with a strong personality for a long time.  After a while you need a break.  Even if they're family; especially if they're family!

The examples you gave afterwards are exactly what I mean. I think tiny little put downs or casual remarks, or, yes, goofing off during tracking sessions, or making fun of the Mickey Mouse voice, all that stuff which frankly is what you expect when you put a bunch of relatives in the room together for years on end; it does sometimes build to a head, and when you're Brian Wilson, who might not interpret everything the same way most people do, he was probably more hurt by it than you'd think. When Brian would do something creative, I think it was like his baby, it was really important to him as an expression of himself. Now, if you bring your newborn around to show the family and someone jokingly says "Oh, man! Look how fat his cheeks are!" they probably don't mean anything by it. But the parent would probably bristle and get really defensive of it. At that point they either choose to get angry and fight back (as Brian did with Murry), or they decide, you know what, I'm not going to let these guys babysit. I think somewhere along the line, Brian stopped reacting to those things with the former choice and switched to the latter, so that eventually he just wasn't bringing them songs at all.

I mean, from his perspective, it was a little much. "Brian, we got a new album, we need some songs. Get off your ass and write something." "Well, I've got these big band songs." "What the hell? We're not that kind of group. Write something else." "OK, I've got this song that's basically a suicide note where I compare myself to a cork." "What a downer! We're not that kind of group. Write something else." "Well, I've got this fairy tale about a radio." "What the hell?! Brian! Will you just write something normal for once!"

Again, not an accurate depiction of how those things went, but I suspect that to some degree or another that's how those conversations were perceived by Brian. It's just a hunch I have.

The Beach Boys were beyond revolutionary

I don't blame the Beach Boys for not wanting to put out a big band album.Not to mention their record label. Those songs are a novelty to hear in bootleg form, but as an actual commercial release? "Love You" is weird enough, and that was not exactly a hot seller. I say that as a fan of "Love You." "Mount Vernon and Fairway" has an interesting backing track, but again, not at all commercial or even very good as art for art's sake, and it's a measure of how much Brian was indulged that it was released as a special 45 with "Holland."  I've listened to "Fairway" about two times, maybe a couple of other times just listening to the instrumental track. I don't think a big band album or or "Mount Vernon and Fairway" would have been good ideas as Brian Wilson solo projects, let alone Beach Boys releases.

"Mt. Vernon and Fairway" being released at all in connection with the band proves to me the band never stopped Brian from anything he wanted.

When did Mike turn his attitude on Brian?

I have been at a few concerts some with BW present some not were Mike said this after performing H+V.. " After all these years WE still don't know what that songs about " Then he laughs and shakes his head..  Seems kinda hurtful to me.. And the audience doesn't respond at all.. And read the june 2012 rolling stone interview at the start of the tour..

In other bands, people have been known to criticize other band member's material, rightly or wrongly. It's not unheard of. Some of them even have had long running feuds where they put the other guy down. For example, John Lennon wrote a song about Paul McCartney called "How Do You Sleep" where he put down Paul's solo songs, including "Just Another Day." John also added the line, "Those freaks were right when they said you were dead." (Alluding to a late '60s hoax about Paul being dead.). Of course, John meant Paul was artistically dead, but still, pretty mean. Of course, people though John was the cool one and Paul was the uncool one, so in their eyes, it was okay.