The Smiley Smile Message Board

Listening to Holland and the In Concert LP the other day, it struck me that, with the inclusion of The Flame members, The Beach Boys had really created a cohesive 'new' image for themselves at this point. Holland strikes me as a very unified record in feel and quality of the tracks and a more mature album (with the exception of Mt Vernon, which is fun, but I can understand why it was releagted to an EP). At that point in the mid 70s the future looks rosy for the group as an artistically credible and relevant (as much as any ageing hippies could be) band, imo.

So it makes me wonder what exactly derailed this incarnation of the band. I've never been great at retaining the historical stuff (cue flaming from AGD) - was it something to do with the renewed interest in their early surf & cars songs that made 15 Big Ones a more viable next album than something more in the Holland mould? Inter band politics? Is Carl predominately in control of the direction mid 70s? Much that I prefer Love You to both Holland and POB, those albums seem hipper for the 70s market, so why did Carl & Dennis not have more sway with the creative direction of the group? POB seems a much more worthy follow up and a great signpost of how the BB could have matured in the late 70s as a respectable rock group, yet things seemed to move further & further in the 15 Big Ones direction.

They lost Jack Rieley after Holland for one, who was instrumental in the post-Sunflower sound. With Rieley out of the picture Carl seemed much less inclined to write, too, which leaves only Dennis, bearing in mind Blondie and Ricky had quit by this point. The adventurous bloc in the Beach Boys had very suddenly diminished to two people. 

According to AGD's site, the Caribou sessions consisted of,
Battle Hymn Of the Republic (BW production) - Good Timin'(written by Bri and Carl) - California Feelin' (Brian) - Don't Let Me Go (?) - You're Riding High On The Music (Think this is Brian?) - Ding Dang (BW) - Our Life, Our Love, Our Land (?) - Lucy Jones (Brian)

The definitely tried to push forward in the studio, but with Brian at the helm. The Caribou sessions in 1974 were a bit disastrous from what little evidence survives - if Brian comes in and he only wants to work on Ding Dang and The Battle Hymn of The Republic, well, that would change the game. The sessions show a strong BW songwriting presence - but we also know the '74 California Feeling recording isn't exactly serious, and not much apart from Good Timin' (the track on the released version is from these sessions) was deemed usable. Wasn't River Song also recorded at these sessions (the early mix we have?) 

You could reason they were attempting 'Brian's Back' a year early without the publicity machine - trying to get him back into the studio and produce an album of mostly his stuff. But that doesn't explain why they felt the need to do that. Maybe they were concerned and thought getting him back to work would make him healthier? Maybe Reprise, or Guerico (they were thinking about moving to CBS, right, something which only Dennis managed) wanted him in.

You also have to realise that, well, you got Brian in the studio and he churns out 15 Big Ones with little care or process, and that's what he wanted to do. For all of the group's ideas of what Brian might do, he went and did that.

Also, the interest for the early stuff never abated - Listening to live boots from the early 70's and sometimes the crowds are massive sh*ts about it. The oft-heard 'You wanna hear an oldie?' also never fails to get a cheer. Endless Summer made it much worse, too. I think I have also heard tell (my memory is a little futzy too!) that Carl and Dennis also wanted to go back to oldies setlists, as they were sick of fighting crowds. Not sure of the veracity of that.

Sorry for the messy post, hope it clears up some things.

People like me do what we do so people like you don't have to. It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it.  :old

As for what went wrong after Holland, the answer is contained in two words: Endless Summer.

According to Brian in 1974, they also worked on "It's Ok" + of course "Child Of Winter".

"Good Timin'", "It's Ok", "California Feelin'", good stuff if you ask me.
and they did "Shortnin' Bread", "Rolling Up To Heaven".

Murry's death too.

I would say after Murry died Brian was never close to being the same. Neither were Carl or Dennis to a lesser degree. It seems to me that after "Holland" you get Brian really going into permanent decline. Ricky and Blondie were gone and they had added something cool to the group.  Dennis began drinking more (after a period of sobriety in early '75) etc The BIG thing though to me is the end of Brian and Dennis as clear singers. Not complete loss mind you (and Dennis handled the change a lot more professionally than Brian) but you never had the same textures again. Endless Summer did lead them in the wrong direction but I would say that at least to the end of the Beacago tour they had a great and varied show that was played well. After the summer of 75 though its all down hill.

Thanks for the info - some good points there.

I'm inclined to agree, too much faith in Brian may have led them astray at this point, ironically.

It strikes me that Dennis, Carl and the Flame members were kind of in similar territory creatively. A shame also that Dennis couldn't have been given more control over the direction the band took as POB clearly shows he had the vision to create great and cohesive music. When I listen to the tracks from POB that could have easily been BB songs such as River Song, and title track, and some other finer moments from Surf's Up & Holland it really surprises me that they took such a U Turn with 15 Big Ones, but I guess The Beach Boys and unfulfilled potential go hand in hand and is what makes the group so compelling to discuss!

(http://images.vpro.nl/img.db?44412466)

Here's an interview with Carl from februari 1972, taken in Holland. He talks about a more serious, 'real' image of the group. (in line with Jack Riley's views) I guess it might be interesting, it's in dutch, but the answers are all english:

http://weblogs.vpro.nl/radioarchief/2012/02/16/de-beach-boys/ (http://weblogs.vpro.nl/radioarchief/2012/02/16/de-beach-boys/)

I can understand that they just gave up. Everything they touched used to turn to gold and after Good Vibrations that just stopped. They kept being creative, kept making good music, kept trying to do new things, but the public just didn't care anymore and everything they did (at least by their old standards) flopped. Looking back I even think it's commendable that they didn't give up sooner.

Well, Endless Summer sure turned to gold so the pressure was off financially.  To paraphrase Ray Davies, it was was also creatively easier to give the people what they want and turn into an oldies band, which that co-billed tour with Chicago did to them.

Actually, the change started in 1974. A year before Beachago Tour.

Two important events happened:
- Endless Summer
- Brian Wilson's return

By 1973-74 The Beach Boys were becoming hip again, their live performances at universities shows how popular they were with young audiences and as a result Holland and In Concert charted very high, though not as they used to in 63-66.

The clear mistake was that they let Mike's brother (or cousin?) have some important role, and Blondie fell out with it so Blondie and Ricky disappeared. However this didn't mean the end. Endless Summer gave them their popularity back, but not the one they were seeking. It was at this point Carl made the mistake of not extrapolating on Holland and instead let Brian back into the band.

Brian was in a bad state by 1974 and he'd lost all contact with what music was 'hip', he was mainly into oldies and as such should never have been given a leading role in the group. By letting Brian back in, it counter-weighed Carl and Dennis, and led to the return of Mike Love.

They should've kept Brian's involvement at a minimum and kept producing rock records. Dennis and Carl would've certainly been able to create decent enough material.

But I still dig Love You / AdultChild so w/e-----  :lol

I gotta say that losing the "classic Brian vocal" factor definitely hurt the band. And Mike Love himself has said it a few times. It is no coincidence that two of their biggest post 1975 hits (besides "Kokomo") are "Good Timin'" and "Getcha Back". Both songs have that classic (and classy) "Brian Wilson" sound (even though Brian didn't sing on "Good Timin'" and he didn't write "Getcha Back"). And I'm not gonna lie, as good as some of the post Holland stuff is, the lack of Brian singing at his 100 percent best definitely hurts the way I look at the material, regardless of how good it is, especially Love You and Brian Wilson.

Remember too, Carl and the rest of the band must have been under constant enormous pressure from Warner's to get output from Brian. The whole contract was geared around Brian writing the majority of the songs. As seen with the Adult Child material, Brian was still quite capable of writing good music. I think the biggest error occurred when they decided to go the oldies route to get Brian acclimated to studio producing again.

Had Dennis cleaned up to some extent or not gotton worse over the years I bet he would have taken control. There is another issue though. Jon Stebbins and I have talked a while back about how the Manson thing cost Dennis any sort of real respect by the band as far as him leading things. He's writen about that too from what I recall.
It was too much faith in Brian, I feel he wasn't ready in 1976 though some of the stuff he did is interesting. Some of the Adult Child material shows he was getting there, but he shouldn't have put in full control. He didn't need it or want it by then.

True but they were doing the songs justice in 1974-75 in a way they never quite managed again.

Yeah those two really needed better vocals and maybe a rewrite. Brian's voice was very decent at times later on (MIU, TLOS, BWPS), but he had an outstanding one of a kind voice before 1975 that nobody has ever replaced.

According to to Gaines H&V, Sail on sailor was the first single to receive a big push from the label since Add some music. SOS failed in the charts and with a failure like I guess everything was up in the air....and how ironic is it that 1 or 2 years later Rock and Roll music reaches no.5? I mean nobody would argue that RNR is better song that SOS right?

You are correct, but was just letting Zack know that the oldies started taking precedence in the shows starting in 1974. I will say though, that yes, most times they still did justice to the songs, but at some of those outdoor concerts they could get quite sloppy at times. I was graced to attend an outdoor show in Phoenix, AZ with both Dennis and Ricky on double drum sets. While it was hard to tell sitting in the audience whether they sang very well or not, watching those two pound the skins, you could feel the power throughout the show. It was a rare and fantastic experience.

No right or wrong here-strictly opinion, but RARM, which is a great song, was dreadfully reimagined by the group. SOS is a rock solid song that deserved a cosiderably better chart position than RARM.  ::)

They went right after Holland IMO, With "Love You"  ;D

Wow this thread is really confusing. Everyone's saying Brian was back by 1974. Which makes sense i guess. But I thought that the off period between 1973-1976 was because Brian was in bed. So was I wrong? I mean really the only other time it could've been was during the 20/20 sessions. Or did it even happen? Was that all a myth?

Blown out of proportion - it's a good story, right? Brian did go a bit recluse, but he was still writing and singing with the band. He just didn't put in the same hours as the rest of them, especially after Sunflower, which he's all over. What Brian did do was just withdraw from the sessions at the home studio to a certain extent. Not entirely, but the band pulled the weight on CATP (where he has a heavy songwriting presence) and especially Holland. He seems to have preferred doing Mt Vernon then working with the group (For instance, Brian literally phoned in his contribution to the Sail On Sailor session - telling Blondie how to play the guitar, and that's it)

The off-period you describe was mostly filled with heavy touring by the group, heavy partying and little recording by Brian (it's about this time when he starts taking cocaine in SERIOUS amounts iirc) and attempts to do new songs at James Guerico's, of CBS Records, Caribou Studios, which from what we have evidence of, are mostly Brian compositions that he didn't put much effort into and the legendary Battle Hymn of The Republic.

Yep.

It seems after Endless Summer, it became pretty clear that the group and the label were not really interested in new Beach Boys music unless Brian was heavily involved.

At some point during 15 Big Ones Carl and Dennis must have turned to each other and said "This just isn't working". And I can only guess the reason they didn't tackle the problem was for fear of upsetting a still very delicate Brian. That, or label pressure to have product "produced by Brian Wilson" no matter what.

From their perspective, they may have been willing to hold their noses on 15BO because it was all about setting Brian up for the next album.  Assuming they were happy with Love You, the plan seems to have worked.

Oh God Almighty, how I'd love to bury every copy of Love You and forget it ever existed! :-[

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Never understood the love for it. The best three or four songs combined with the best six or seven songs on Adult Child  or some  the potential cuts on New Album (not a real LP just a tape of options that is an oddly good boot LP) ) would have been cool. I don't know if I want to destroy it (I think the post KTSA albums are far worse) but I have played it several dozen times and never got into it.

My recollection, and I can't remember where I read this, is that there actually was a vote on whether or not to put out 15 Big Ones in its released form, that Carl and Dennis were voted down 3 to 2, and that as a result Dennis then took his songs elsewhere, whereas Carl just sort of became slowly demoralized and gave up, musically.  Also, Carlin's book has a nice two or three pages on the struggles around the release of the album that make clear how disappointed Dennis and Carl were with the record, and the complicated resentment towards Brian that existed within the band even from people like Mike and Al.   

Join the club-not as bad as SIP, of course, but never listen to it much. Hard on the ears.

I'm split on Love You, sometimes I find it charming and sometimes I find it annoying.

And I wouldn't feel this way except I keep reading what a work of genius Love You is. I don't see anyone heaping that kind of praise on the post KTSA albums, although I'm sure ML thinks his SIP is a work of genius. As far as songwriting goes, there's about half a good album on Love You, but the production really grates on me. Some of those songs sound better on the Brian Loves You piano demos.

Love You is an excellent album but hard to get into the first time around. 15BO was so bad that even Mike Love refused to discuss it in interviews at the time.

I'm agnostic about LOVE YOU now, but I vividly recall my reaction to hearing it for the first time, which was perhaps four or five years after it came out: I thought it sounded like crap, one of the most unprofessional sounding records I'd ever heard from a major band.  And I'll wager in the context of 95% of the average mainstream record buyers at the time, that was, and would have been, their first and overwhelming reaction.  It was just too different from the radio to make it.  I mean, RADICALLY different.  We can debate the artistic merits 'til we're blue in the face, but that skates around the fact that in the marketplace of 1977, a record with that kind of production value was never going to be a commercial success.  So to me, the whole debate about LOVE YOU misses the point, since the band, and this includes the Wilsons, weren't going specifically for an arty cool record.  First and foremost, they wanted a record that was going to sell.  I think Carl and Dennis wanted a GOOD record that was gonna sell...but having a successful record was job one.

I think Rollerskating Child (creepy lyrics and all) could have been a hit with a little push and some luck.

Same with The Night Was So Young..... If it had been featured in a movie, perhaps ("The Goodbye Girl" or something like that) it could have caught on and given the album a boots..... There were better decisions that could have been made.

And I think this is saddest part of all - that  after Endless Summer and Spirit of America, the Beach Boys had the attention of the world again, the public was ready for a great new BB's record, and what did they get? 15 Big Ones. Although that album sold well, I'm sure many fans took it home, played it, and said to themselves "I'm never buying a new BB's album again". Love You only did further damage. Some fans love it for it's portrait of a damaged artist at work, but that's not what the average fan wanted. If the group had come out with great new work in 76/77, it could have been the beginning of another run at the top of the charts. Instead, it was pretty much the end as far as album sales go.

Today I listened to "Love You" all the way through for the first time in years.  I agree that commercially it was a hard sell in 1977, but I for one like the farty synths, and enjoy most of the music (if not all the vocals).  But my initial opinion about the lyrics has only intensified...many of them sound like they were written in ten minutes, some just downright cringeworthy.  I know Jack Rieley's lyrics can be pretentious, but at least he put some effort into them.  As a look into the disturbingly regressive mind of BW, an interesting album.  An album I'd play for a non-fan to show off the brilliance of the BBs?  Or to compete with Fleetwood Mac in 1977?  Hardly. 

Maybe Mike's Beard is right, the other BBs just couldn't risk shattering Brian's fragile self-confidence, so they had to let it go out.  After the string of albums they put out 1970-73, Carl and Dennis had to have been embarrassed by "15 BO" and "LY."  No wonder Dennis wanted to launch off on his own.

There, just needed to get that off my chest.  Having said that, I'd much rather listen to the flawed but creative LY than the slab of bland that is M.I.U.

Agreed, "Love You" is not a commercial album. It is essentially Brian's "McCartney II" - off-the-cuff, under produced, and pure. I can see why it was a commercial failure, but a someone who loves Brian's music, I find the purity of "Love You" refreshing. There is no pretension, no commercial calculation to it. The songs are great, and even the worst lyrics have a charm to them that is quintessentially Brian.

As a mode of expression - relating where Brian was at the time mentally - Love You succeeds in every fashion. As a commercial album, not so much. It is a work of art nevertheless and I adore it.

15 Big Ones, incidentally, suffers from a lack of intriguing original songs. The production foreshadows "Love You,"  with the subbed-out bass synths, but 15BO suffers from commercial (mis)calculation. I think this is at the heart of all of the Beach Boys ' late-period failures - vaguely commercial aspirations without the wherewithal to make something truly excellent. At their peak, the BB's combined both art and commerce (Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations) but in their later period, they would have been better off just trying to make solid records as they did with Friends, Sunflower, Holland, etc.

I will admit the production for me too was a problem because yeah some of the songs sound a lot better on Brian Loves You or on the live versions.

b00ts, I largely agree with you.  But I was trying to listen to it as a non-fan might, or -- as was actually the case -- as someone hearing it for the first time in a long time after hearing others describe it as one of their favorite BB albums.  As someone who knows Brian's story and loves him -- emotional issues, drug damage, seemingly stunted adolescence, etc -- I can appreciate the charm.  But I still couldn't play it for someone without caveats.  For me, it's not the production that damages the album, it's the lyrics.  It probably would have been better for everyone had it been a solo album.

But you have gotten me thinking about personal artistic statements...does one listen to a banal lyric and think "that really represents the artist's current emotional state, or the best he is capable of right now," or "he really didn't work very hard on this, did he?"   We cut him a lot of slack because he's Brian and we love him for everything he has given us, or we're fascinated by his offbeat view.  So I am thinking, would I/should I approach all artists this way, especially those I'm not familiar with?

I know I'm overanalyzing here; bottom line, I like "Love You" but I'm trying to like it more...

And I realize my problem with the lyrics actually falls in two categories:  one is just banal lyrics ("let's put our hearts together/and say we'll leave each other never"), the other is simplistic and juvenile themes, sometimes bordering on creepy ("I Wanna Pick You Up").   I can acknowledge the latter could qualify as a personal, if perhaps disturbing, statement; the former feels like laziness.  

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I also wanted to add that the lyrics bug me too. "Roller Skating Child" isn't really something anyone  should do I mean this is Bay City Rollers type junk lyrically, though I like the rhythm and energy. "I Wanna Pick You Up" doesn't sound right either. I do love "Good Time" and the difference between 1970 Brian and 1976 is made all too clear. It has some goofy lyrics but the vocal and production overwhelm that. "I'll Be He's Nice" is pretty good, very good on Brian Loves You. I didn't really suss out how good the melody and changes were until I heard the demo. "Ding Dang" is cute but is what it is. "The Night Was So Young" works great except Carl's excesses were much more obvious here than before. "Solar System", "Let's Put Our Hearts Together",  "Love Is A Woman" aren't good at all though Andrew does do the first one quite well. "Johnny Carson" is strange and though I thought it was fun one the first few hearings it grew stale fast. "Airplane" has a lot of potential but the production and Brian's singing are terrible. The repeated keyboard farts ruin it for me. "Let Us Go On This Way" and "Mona" could have worked had they been recorded four or five years earlier. "Honkin" was pretty cool on stage and has a great hook and rhythm but it sounds phony on the album. Lyrics needed help too.

I think the Big Band sessions showed a great growth and to me they are what Love You should be. Funny, quirky, and very Brian for sure,  but they are far more musical and the performances are generally a lot better, Maybe not from Carl, but Brian and Marilyn sound so much better.

MIU isn't great  but certain tracks I can play for people without any problem. Brian's leads are not perfect but he's better pitched and sounds professional.  Again I don't love the album but "My Diane" (this is the best I ever heard Dennis sing on a later Beach Boys record. Not the best song just the best vocal) , "Matchpoint", "Come Go With Me", even "She's Got Rhythm" and "Wontcha Come Out Tonight" are all pretty good. The rest is poor but I never understood why it was considered so bad. Beach Boys 85 took things to a much worse A/C extreme and I wonder why it didn't create the same outrage. Heck even "Pitter Patter" has some cool harmony. "Sweet Sunday" isn't good to start and Carl is in bad voice. "Belles Of Paris" is one of the worst things I ever heard, but you would think "Belles" is what the whole album sounds like when you read some reviews.

McCartney II is a good comparison but Paul was in great voice and he came up with some good melodies and songs that stretch him. Some crap too.

The McCartney II comparison is perfect but it's best to remember Paul considered both it and its companion album as side-projects from the bands he was working with at the time os their respective releases.   They were intentionally different from his usual, more commercial sound.  Keep in mind that the Top 10 hits from those albums (one, a chart topper) were the live versions, performed by Wings, in styles much closer to his usual stuff.  I think Love You is a very charming album, but I honestly don't think it's a very "good" album.  I think it should have been released as a solo album with "guest vocals by the Beach Boys." 

Honest to God, my Beach Boys experience went like this: Hits via the oldies station -> Endless Summer -> Spirit Of America -> the Priess book (which started my obsession with Smile -> the Good Vibrations/Great Concert two-fer -> In Concert (which blew me away!) -> Love You.  And that was it for a long while.  Just like that, I put the band on the back shelf for a very long time. 

(The next think I remember liking was "California Dreaming"!  "Oh, that's right.  I LIKE this band!"  Then I picked up BW88.  "Um...?  What's with this cheesey production and very different vocal style?"  Back on the shelf for a short spell  -> "Kokomo" (which I liked) "No, come on.  What's the deal here?  Do I like these guys or not?!?"  The 93 box set (Smile!) convinced me I DID like them and I finally bought a copy of Pet Sounds.  And what pushed me over the edge to "fanatic"?  The Pet Sounds Box and...Imagination!)

The point is, to me, having Love You sit right along side the rest of the catalog runs the chance of scaring off potential fans (like it did me!). 

It reminds me of a friend who grew up on classical music and finally got turned on to the Beatles in his mid 20's.  He liked the first couple he bought and dove into the rest of the catalog.  Liking all of that, he wanted even more.  Knowing that Lennon was the group's leader, he bought his ENTIRE catalog.

I can't tell you how sceptical he was to try McCartney's stuff after hearing Two Virgins, Life With The Lions, The Wedding Album, and Sometime In New York City!  He told me he nearly threw in the towel and to him, at the time, it made listening to stuff like the White Album and Let It Be less enjoyable because it made him notice any of the similarities to John's "weirder" stuff.

But those above me put it best.  In 1977 that album was a HUGE mistake.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have bought mine out of the cut out bin, very shortly after its release!

Well Lennon really shouldn't have put those albums out. I know they weren't albums aimed at being commercial but they were awful and put a stain on his solo career. My love of his Beatles stuff remains undiminished but those albums made me realize how self indulgent much (if not all) of Lennon's solo career was. Even Plastic Ono is way too subjective for me to enjoy unless I am in the mood to hear about his anger at that time of his life. Double Fantasy is more melodic  but John never understood that forcing Yoko on his fans was never going to work. Also it looses much of the old edge he had before. Walls and  Bridges I really like as I do (most of) Imagine but outside those I can't say I like John solo work except for drips and drabs. Tight A$, Nobody Told Me, Instant Karma those are really cool, but Clean Up Time, Flower Princess, WITNOTW, what was going on there? Lemnon's work on every Beatles album was so good that it's hard not to blame Yoko for some of this.

I couldn't have put it better myself.
Seriously :thumbsup.

This was very close to my experience with the band as well. The only difference is that not long after 15 BIG ONES had been released I owned all the post-PET SOUNDS albums and half of the pre-PET SOUNDS material. So, when LOVE YOU made it's appearance I saw it as a worst misstep than 15 BO, but already loved the majority of the band's work. I can't emphasize enough how Dennis' PACIFIC OCEAN BLUE (released five months later) restored my faith that the Beach Boys could do solid work again. Unfortunately, the albums after LOVE YOU only got slightly better and I took a break from the band in the early 80s until Brian's solo album came out in '88.

When I listen to LOVE YOU now, I hear the lovely melodies that Brian wrote that I didn't focus on during those early listens. However, uninspired arrangements, poor vocals and crappy lyrics undermine those melodies at almost every opportunity.

Very well stated.  I share that assessment.


Your comments prompted me to listen to MIU for the first time in many years, and it was better than I expected.  One of my issues with it is that, in general, Mike’s nasal vocals have not aged well for me at all.  So Carl’s relative absence hurts.  Another is that it is one more step down the covers/retro road that killed the group as a vital artistic force.   “She’s Got Rhythm” has energy and a catchy chorus, but with a “Brian Is ALMOST Back!” vocal that falls short.  “Come Go with Me” works well enough.  “Matchpoint” has what would turn out to be Brian’s last really good lead for decades, and the production is not unlike what, say, the group America was doing at the time.  But it could have used some dynamics or variation on the bridge; "How could love slip away from me?" is a dramatic line; instead the track keeps plugging along blandly.  With a less contrived lyric and a little imagination it might have been a single. 

I share your feelings about “My Diane.”  “Pitter Patter” is pleasant enough and I’ll give “Winds of Change” credit as an attempt at a Broadway-type song with a mature Mike vocal.  “Tomboy” could have been charming with less creepy lyrics.  The rest strike me as forgettable to regrettable.  Taken on its own terms and not compared with other BB albums, a half-decent album IMO.

Winds Of Change is Al doing a Kermit The Frog impression on lead though, right? With a barely audible Mike on the bridge.

Oops, you're right, that is Al.  He's singing with a different tone than usual.

From another perspective, I think it's actually a crucial album in terms of their legacy, for younger fans getting into them later in the game (i.e. myself, in the 90s).  It's a bump of, at least, genuine weirdness in what would otherwise be a long unbroken stretch of mediocrity and blandness, and in that respect I think it's really important.  If you approached the group primarily from the Pet Sounds/Smile axis, as I did, you're hungry for more of that kind of weirdness.  Admittedly, in the beginning I was pretty much all about Brian and was a bit slower to warm to the group-led period, but Love You for me, was the Brian-led signpost that said it was always worth looking deeper.  And  "look deeper" is pretty much the one thing every new Beach Boys fan should learn.

Weirdness?

Loads of people approach the band due to Pet Sounds' greatness. Not weirdness. It shouldn't be about, 'oh, isn't it wonderful that Brian was so crazy'.

I don't think it's anything do with with fetishizing mental illness.  If you don't think the Beach Boys ever got weird, musically, on purpose, I don't know what to tell you.  It's not the only quality, but it was something that I picked up on when I was first getting into them, and I'm sure other people did as well.  Fortunately I didn't encounter anyone who told me I was only allowed to appreciate their "greatness".

Sure they became experimental and intentionally so at first. The weirdness in Love You is all about mental illness though. People say, 'it's so Brian'. In a way that's true because it is so mentally ill Brian. That's the piece of human wreckage that he's become at the time. There are a lot of people who love the fact that Brian had so many problems though and that is his appeal.

That just seems like a really slanted take on that album.  The connection between Love You and, say, the Pet Sounds through Smiley era is that it's personal and insular, it's not necessarily trying hard (or able, for whatever reason) to connect with the outside world.  I think that insularity is a real key component of the Beach Boys world (need I reference "In My Room"?).  Of course it goes along with the exact opposite of that as well, the sort of brash extroversion of a lot of their other work and all the other myriad qualities everybody else brought to the table.

Of course there are queasy moments on Love You and of course I'm not going to insist that he was totally well when he made it, because he wasn't, but...I don't know, it seems like you're saying the album is like watching somebody crap their pants, and that it has no other value.  I've just never heard it that way.  I wish there were four or five more albums of Brian messing around with those synths.

Love You works beautifully for me as a direct sequel to Pet Sounds

Here you have the same narrator from that album several years older, basically crazy and having not really moved on and descending into a sort of Howard Hughes mode.

Love You's backing tracks are as great as ever from Brian. The album is awesome even with shaky lyrics and vocals at times.

Agreed thats how I look at the album, its the same guy from Pet Sounds in the harsh world of 1977 after the craziness of the 1960s.

Let me get this straight - a lot of people can hear beauty in something that doesn't appeal to you, and rather than consider that the problem might be with your musical appreciation, or writing it off as a simple difference in taste, you accuse those people of being happy Brian has had mental illnesses? Do you realise what a horrible accusation that is? I suppose when Brian says it's his favourite, as he sometimes does, he's thinking "Wow, I'm so glad I've had a serious illness for more than forty years"?

Unfortunately nearly all Brian's music has some connection with his mental problems. Do you accuse people who love Break Away (with its lyrics about hearing voices) or Til I Die or Still I Dream Of It of being happy Brian was mentally ill? Loving the art that was created by a mentally ill person doesn't mean being happy about that illness. In fact in my case, as someone who has seen what mental illness can do to people all too closely (I have, among other things, done several years' work on a psychiatric ward), there's a sense in which I love the record more because I see it as Brian - and humanity generally - spitting in the face of mental illness. "Take that, depression/schizoid disorder [insert actual diagnosis] you bastard, I'll make great art despite you!" It's a record made by someone who is *not* letting his problems stop him from working, or stop him from creating great work. Brian made this album in spite of, not because of, his illness, and I listen to it in that spirit.

Your argument is a bit like saying that people who like Beethoven's Ninth Symphony only do so because they're glad he went deaf. Yes, it'd be a different work if he had kept his hearing, and yes a small part of the appeal of the music is knowing that such joyful, uplifting, hopeful music was written by someone who knew he could never hear it himself but did it anyway, but the vast majority of the appeal is because it's one of the great pieces of music of all time. Beethoven would have written different, possibly better, music had he kept his hearing, and Brian would have written different, possibly better, music had his mental health been better, but that shouldn't stop us appreciating the work they *did* produce.

It's not like we're treating it like outsider music - this isn't Jandek or Wesley Willis or something else that is completely outside the boundaries of normal music.

I love Love You because of the almost Weimar cabaret feel of Johnny Carson, because of the way the ii7-III-V7 change at the end of the verses in Honkin' Down The Highway makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end, because Solar System into The Night Was So Young into I'll Bet He's Nice is as good a run of three songs in a row as any on any Beach Boys album, because the Imaj7-I7-IV7 changes at the start of Airplane, cliched though they are, evoke perfectly the feeling of flying, because of the interplay between Carl and Brian's voices at the end of Airplane, because it features the best synth sound ever recorded... in short, because it's *great music*.

Yes, the lyrics are simplistic - but no more so than those of, say, Til I Die. It's just that simplistic expressions of joy sound more childish than simplistic expressions of despair. Brian's not a particularly verbal person. But the lyrics are as honest as any he ever wrote, and they help communicate the mood of the music far better than getting in a technically better lyricist would.

Musically, it's a culmination of stuff Brian had been doing since 1971 or so - Funky Pretty, for example, would fit perfectly on this album if you got rid of Blondie and Ricky's voices, right down to the minimalist drums by Brian. And the joking, almost novelty-song elements had been in Brian's music for years - is anything on here *really* stranger than Vegetables, or I'd Love Just Once To See You, or Busy Doin' Nothin' ?

Yes, it wasn't commercial for the time - but it *was*, along with Neil Young's work at the time, the only artistically valid response to the punk music that was coming out at the time from anyone of Brian's generation. And the fact that it wasn't intended as such and Brian had almost certainly never heard the Ramones or Jonathan Richman just makes that even better. There's a reason that musicians like Patti Smith and Peter Buck love the album.

The McCartney II comparison is a very good one - and just listen to tracks like Wonderful Christmastime that McCartney was doing a couple of years after Love You. That's a VERY similar record, production-wise, to Love You. Brian was ahead of the game again.

None of that will persuade anyone who dislikes the album that they should suddenly start loving it, and nor should it - de gustabis non disputandum est and all that - but hopefully it should show you that those of us who love this music, those to whom it has given huge amounts of pleasure over decades, are not unfeeling monsters glorying in the pain of someone we profess to admire, but just music lovers whose tastes happen to differ from your own.

Frankly, I think you owe us an apology.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: as well as descending into Howard Hughes mode, he'll occasionally hang out at roller skating rinks with Mike and they'll pick up young girls and make sweet love to them when their mamma's are around and will do EVEN MORE when she's not!

Excellent post, Andrew Hickey!

That's a tricky question about where the line is between appreciating something for its honesty or seeing it as banal. You may be right that our knowledge about Brian affects the way we hear Love You and I can't quite fully imagine what I would think of it if I were not familiar with Brian.

I think that what makes Brian's slice-of-life lyrics going back to "Busy Doin' Nothing" so passable and, at times, wonderful is that they are without pretension and dryly witty. Again, these are qualities possessed by the Brian Wilson that we all know and love, which lends credence  to your point.

However, the arrangements and compositions of "Beach Boys Love You" prevent it from being outsider art. Sometimes Brian turns his attention to childish themes ("Solar System") and sometimes to adult themes (The Night Was So Young") but Love You hits the mark squarely every single time. This is a skilled composer and arranger who knows what he is doing, and he wants to take us to a very different place than we are used to. This can be hard to fathom for first-time or thirty third-time listeners, but even lyrics like "it's three o'clock/I go to my sink/I pour some milk/And I start to think" work perfectly for me.

Perhaps Love You would have been better off as a solo album, but the lyrics of "Hey Little Tomboy" are infinitely more cringe-inducing and would require infinitely more explanation than any aspect of Love You, if I deigned to play it for any of my friends!

Anyway, good on you for trying with Love You. One day, it will Love You back.

If you want to hear music by the BB entirely devoid of any traces of mental illness, I can highly recommend Bruce Johnston's solo work. :P

I think Love You works great along side Jonathan Richman, Daniel Johnston, Syd Barrett`s more whimsical stuff, the Television Personalities, early Barenaked Ladies, Beat Happening, Jad Fair, the Shaggs...

Not in the least.

There ARE a lot of people who love the fact that Brian has suffered from so many problems. You can see it on some of the boards with the comments from people who know so little about the music but defend the person so staunchly (and even hand out the occasional death threat to those who criticize him). You can see it at the gigs with the people who incessantly shout, 'I love you' even when Brian is clearly tired of hearing it. Brian has become a figurehead to some for the cause of overcoming mental health problems.

You also see in so many reviews the term 'crazy' being used as a compliment when referring to Brian's work. Some seem to savour the suffering...

I actually like quite a bit of Love You. But I like it because there is some quality stuff there (in amongst the bilge) and not solely down to the weirdness. My original comment (OTT because I'd had a bad day and not meant solely for the poster I was replying to) was intended to reflect that weird and good Brian songs are good, weird and bad Brian songs are bad. Some of the more lunatic Brianistas seem to think that any crazy musical excrescences that Brian came out with should never be criticized and that crazy in itself is enough.

No-one who 'knows little about the music' has even *heard* Love You, so obviously you're talking about different people than those who like that album. I've personally never seen a death threat because someone's criticised Brian, but your attempts to tar those of us who like the album with that brush, when there are aggressive idiots who will make that kind of comment on *any* subject, are if anything digging yourself deeper.


Funny, when I went to see Paul McCartney last year a load of people shouted that at him, too. Must have been because they were glorying in his mental illness, too. Oh wait...



So now you're equating people who think it's a good thing he's *overcome* his problems, assuming he has, with people who think it's a good thing he had the problems in the first place.

Name five, if this is so prevalent.

The fact is, you accused those of us who like Love You - purely on the basis of liking the album - of "lov[ing] the fact that Brian had so many problems". That is not an accusation you should make lightly, and it *is* one for which you owe an apology, or would if you had any decency. Accusing others of glorying in others' illness is a horrible, malicious accusation, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

It was an ice skating rink nearly caddy corner to Brother Studios.  Do you suppose he would go there and hang? Maybe he took his kids there. Do we know? I don't.  I never thought the song was weird, just a little on the innocent side.

As I said, I wasn't talking about Love You alone specifically at all and my post was OTT. The meaning, as mentioned again above, was that weirdness and crazyness in itself isn't enough. Anyone can be weird and crazy. That's all. Nothing more in it than that.

I understand why you are upset, but I think it is true that people glorify Brian's mental illness. I am a big fan of Love You, and I don't like the fact that his mental illness affects peoples' judgment of the album to the extent that it does. I don't think Love You needs to be enjoyed ironically or condescendingly. It is simply a great album with some off-kilter lyrical themes. Then again, look at the lyrical themes of most of the music we are bombarded with - love, infatuation, heartbreak, etc. People are so used to the same old BS that anything different strikes them as "too weird." Love You is refreshing for this reason among others.

Johnny Carson is a prime example. It is one of the most rock and roll songs The Beach Boys have ever recorded, and it is about a late night talk show host. Not just any late night host, though - THE late night host. So perfect. Maybe if it was a song about getting dumped by a girl, it would be more widely accepted... but f*** that! The subject matter is part of what makes it great.

I have read reviews and articles about Brian's music referring to him as a 'vegetable' and it always betrays a lack of knowledge on the part of the writer. It is galling and very annoying. Many people stigmatize his mental illness, and others fetishize it. Both viewpoints are ridiculous and childish, and anyone who says that Love You is only able to be enjoyed by people who glorify Brian's mental illness is missing the point, losing the plot, and depriving themselves of a great work of art by a true master.

Indeed but nobody has said that.

Love You is certainly eccentric. But I wouldn't say it's crazy. Brian was not particularly in a bad place when he made the album; people going through an episode of severe mental illness are often unable to do anything. That was certainly the case with BW from 73-75 or so, but not in 1977.

I think several things are going on with the record.

One of them is that Brian is actually trying to write an album from the viewpoint of a teenager, or a more generic "young" viewpoint. Songs like "Let Us Go On this Way," "Solar System" and "Roller Skating Child" (and "Hey Little Tomboy," for that matter) all come from the point of view of a younger singer. Brian's not dumb, and he certainly understood (as a Randy Newman fan must) that it's possible to write songs in character. The fact that these songs are sung by croaky sounding 30-somethings adds a layer of bizarre irony, which is probably not intentional.

Another is that Brian is writing slice of life songs again. Something like "The Night Was So Young," or "Airplane" are little vignettes from his life, written in a very simple and direct way. I think "My Diane" comes from around this time, too. These tend to be the songs people like most from this era of Brian's work, because you have the painful honesty matched with the stripped-down production. It sounds very compelling.

Then you have Brian expressing his funny side. I mean, "Johnny Carson" is clearly meant to be a humorous song. Not silly -- there's care and attention there -- but Brian wants to entertain us with something novel. For that matter, "Ding Dang" is much the same way.

Finally, you have some dreck. It wouldn't be a BW/BB project without some filler, so you have a couple of legitimately terrible tracks. "Love is a Woman," I'm looking at you.

The real puzzle of the album is, because it's so singular, it can be easy to miss that all of these things are going on. The production is very consistent in its demo-style sound, and the vocals never quite lift off. The mix is kind of muddy. Brian often sounds a little self-conscious when he's singing (it's not as bad as BW88, but it's certainly a precursor to that style). So you have to listen to the songs very carefully.

But it's not an expression of mental illness, any more than Smile was, or Smiley Smile, or even California Girls. It's pretty artistically self-directed. I do think it suggests that Brian had a lot of ideas for the band's future, not all of them artistically congruent. Where his illness and the people around him let him down was that he wasn't pressed to take a consistent direction, or produce the tracks a bit more fully, or even pick a slightly better selection of songs.

As a document of Brian's last fully self-aware, self-directed creative period, though, it can't be beat.

I am not referring to or accusing anyone in this thread or on this board specifically. I am just speaking generally. It seems to be a pervasive attitude amongst certain music fans that Brian is just "wacked out" of his mind.

Very well-stated, Wirestone. Brian knew what he was doing when he made Love You and it is not the "outsider art" that many think it is. Also, I agree about "Love Is A Woman;" I adore the rest of BBLY but that song doesn't do it for me.

This thread kind of illustrates why LIGHT ALBUM works for me.  The production is commercial in a way that's appropriate for its time (as opposed to MIU, which sounds thin and cheesy to me), the songs range from mediocre to great, but there's no real horrible bummers there, the lyrics are dignified and don't delve into nostalgia.  Most of peoples' problem with it stems from HCTN, but I happen to be one of the few who think it's awesome (though they probably should have used the single edit for the album).

I totally understand why folks would prefer, from an artistic standpoint, LOVE YOU.  Got it.  But in terms of trying for a hit record in a way that actually made sense to the marketplace and the band's sound and legacy, LIGHT ALBUM comes pretty close in a way none of the other late period ones do.  Yeah, the disco thing was ill-advised in some ways but let me tell you...I just listened to Elton John's single "Victim Of Love" and gang, HCTN does not come anywhere near as being as bad, by-the-numbers, or totally worthless as that piece of crap does.  And I loves me Elton John as much as I love the BBs.

Although, to be fair, Victim of Love was kind of a side project. Elton didn't write any of the material, or have anything to do with the playing or arrangements. He has plausible deniability!

I definitely agree Adam about the Light album being more commercially viable.  I still think HCTN's biggest problem on the album is it's ridiculous length. I don't think it would be despised nearly as much if it were 4:00 minutes long let's say.  It would also help if the album had another up tempo song so it would not be so jarring either.

I will admit to not being a huge fan of Love You. I like some songs but it just never worked for me. That being said, there is no way it fits into any commercial market at all and the band really could have used that. Commercial, but not selling out which I think the Light Album does well.

I think it's important to basically see every Beach Boys album from Holland on as an individual Beach Boy's take on what made the group successful, and his attempt to appeal to the record-buying public of the day.

Holland -- Carl's take (aided and abetted by Jack Reiley and the Flame) on a certain gritty '70s sound.
15 Big Ones and Love You -- Brian attempts a covers album (which kind of works) and one of originals (which doesn't sell).
M.I.U. -- Al (aided and abetted by Mike and a reluctant Brian) tries to make a more polished version of the last two records.
L.A. -- Carl (with help from Dennis, this time) tries for a slicker, yet artistic sound.
Keeping the Summer Alive -- Bruce picks up the pieces from a shattered Brian.
BB85 -- Carl (aided by a somewhat recovered Brian) has one more go at making a synth-pop record.
Still Crusin' -- Mike's efforts dominate, but Al and Brian get their own tracks, along with reused 60s numbers.
Summer in Paradise -- Mike finally has his go at directing an album. Hm.
Stars and Stripes -- Mike's project, with a "producer" credit going to Brian.
Untitled 2012 album -- Brian takes the helm once again.

So in other words, this is the first Beach Boys album --

In 16 years to bear a Brian Wilson production credit.
In 23 years to have non-remade Brian Wilson songs.
In 27 years to have more than one non-remade Brian Wilson song.
In 27 years to have a Wilson-Love collaboration.
In 35 years to be both produced and mostly written by Brian Wilson.

Point just bein', the knives people have out to HCTN don't seem to be as deserved, particularly when I look at "Victim Of Love."

I agree with the comments on Light Album and I guess having the label putting pressure on them made the group become more professional.

The length of HCTN is a massive problem and it does unbalance the album. A shorter version would have fitted better but would still have stuck out like a sore thumb. Shortenin' Bread also doesn't add anything. If they could have added a couple of other originals (they had plenty to choose from by Mike and Dennis) then it would have improved things further.

I guess the answer is nothing went wrong, everything went its natural course.

I like your rundown but this confused me. If MIU was more polished, and LA was slicker then I don't understand the difference?

MIU = Mike's vision
LA = Carl's vision

In the post Holland era Carl had a better take on what worked than Mike. 

Except for HCTN (I hated it.  The music sounds like it came from the CHiPs sound track), LA is the best album of the post Holland era.  Too bad this could not have been the 1976 album.

On BB85 and KTSA the best songs are Carl's songs - escepecially BB85 where there is just such a different feel to them.

"Some Girls" kicked Punk's ass, and then for good measure kicked disco's ass too.

Disco is amazing, f*** y'all.

Not necessarily true. Not true at all for me, I know. I genuinely enjoy Love You, I don't do so to be "ironic" or because of some kind of trainwreck-appeal.

I don't consider Love You "Brian at his worst" or "most mentally ill" because I'll be damned if that wasn't the most productive the guy had been since '66. That says something.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear.

My point is that MIU was Al's attempt to do a more polished version of the previous two records -- 15BO and Love You. You have some songs left over from those sessions, you have Brian actively involved as a singer, player and composer. But you have Al attempting to make that into his version of a commercial sounding record.

LA is Carl's attempt to do a slick, sophisticated pop sound -- more polished than anything the band had attempted since Sunflower. It's slicker than the previous three records, but also more tasteful than all of them. (And that was latter-day Carl for you!)


As I said, I think MIU is actually Al's vision, aided and abetted by Mike. Love wasn't actually driving the musical train. He certainly wanted to re-establish himself as a lyricist, but I don't see the overall sound or vibe as Mike's doing.

I agree with you 100%. So much of Mike and (blasphemy alert  :o ) Brian's songs on those albums sound like attempts to recreate the early BB's sound; Carl, with the possible exception of the title song of KTSA, doesn't bother with that. KTSA could have been better if Dennis had bothered to contribute (as he did on LA); Brian probably had better songs he could've contributed to BB85, but preferred to keep them for his solo album.

Al has said that he produced the vocals but not the music. Ron Altbach (I guess She's Got Rhythm is good evidence of this) handed him a bunch of mediocre tracks and he had the challenge of adding the vocals. I think he did a great job considering Carl was absent for much of it.