The Smiley Smile Message Board

http://bananastan.com/notes_1.html

Why does he feel the need to keep bashing/blaming Mike, and in turn bashing Brian as well?

Can't he see that The Beach Boys are a family and have other concerns aside from Smile or that they have an entire history before/after Smile to respect and honor?

Can't he just keep out of it?

Terribly written nonsense.

A new tirade of bitterness from VDP. The human brain is a mystery. Here's an extremely talented and original musician and lyricist who does not need the whole Smile/Beach Boy event to assert himself. Yet, he keeps on spitting poison, whenever he gets the chance, over what happened during a 6-month period 45 years ago. I wish he finds peace of mine regarding that episode in his life.

"I am astonished that Brian has been led into a 'The 50th Reunion Album/Tour'."

Mama needs a new pair of shoes. 

I think it's pretty reasonable to me.  And I don't think he was being that mean either.  I have read interviews where Mike accuses Van Dyke of pushing Brian towards drugs and acid and that's just not fair.  There are many things that led to Brian's downfall but Van Dyke Parks has always been a positive presence in Brian's life.  If they did drugs together, it's because that was the thing to do at the time.  It's not Van Dyke's fault that Brian became addicted.

Also, while the reunion is exciting, it's most definitely all about money and I don't believe one bit that there's not still a pinch of animosity between Brian, Al, and Mike.  It's all a show.  It might be a good show, but when it all comes down to it, it's probably not as thrilling to them as it is to the audience.  But I digress, I'm excited for the reunion and I'm excited to hear new material, no matter what the motivations might be.

But what's wrong with making a few bucks while they're at it?

These guys are 70 year old millionaires. They don't need the money.

Maybe they are doing it for Dave then! :)By the way, someone should RE-Release his terrific book!Now is the time!!

If so, we should do nothing but applaud them.

It really reveals how deeply hurt v.d.p. still is, it seems, and how wronged he still feels, and how large this six months still looms. Part may be a continuing lament over what could have been?

However, "It's an anecdotal height of personal neutrality in an ethical dilemma"?  Huh? And wouldn't it be cool if part of it was for d.m.

I wonder if he ever felt bullied or wronged by having to give away 50% of his potential income (his publishing rights) from his collaborations with Brian to Sea Of Tunes?  Or, did he see it as a the price to be paid in order to play in Hollywood?



 

He was asked repeatedly about his feelings on the release of Smile by many on this board and in the media. He was requested to weigh in. There's no mystery there. The fact that you don't like his answers simply speaks to your own agenda.


It's most certainly not. It's VDP attempting to explain -- as best he can -- his feelings on a complex situation.


None of it seems particularly poisonous to me. He's attempting to assert his place in a still-contested historical event. He is the co-creator, by any measure, of Smile. Surely he deserves the space to say whatever he darn well pleases. We certainly give Brian and Mike the space to assert their feelings.

It is astonishing to me that a figure who has had such an important influence in the life of BW -- and in the music we all love -- should be criticized for speaking his piece. Especially when Mike took the space and opportunity to attack his work -- still -- in the Smile box. Who actually has the thin skin here?

Perhaps VDP is learning you don't post on the internet after consuming a few wines ...  ;)

I thought it would be all about the reunion. but it was all about smile. and not even the smile sessions. the 45 year old unfinished album. he should get over it i think. i mean sure mike love might have chased him away from the project. but he is ultimately the one who chose to leave. plus that was 45 freakin years ago. i mean jeez.

I concur

Mike and van dyke should have a sitdown over this subject

I'm sure that if people had left him alone about the subject he would not have felt compelled to comment. The problem is that he has been hounded consistently since the set's release about his opinions. Every interview he conducted for his solo tour featured questions about it. Every audience q and a brings it up. Mike doesn't feel the need to shut up about it, so why should Van Dyke?

I expect it is tiresome (or worse) to have it be almost always the first question asked, overshadowing so much else he has done.

This wasn't even a question: It was a statement released by VDP!

No one forced him to weigh in in such a manner.

However, I can certainly understand his feelings. I just wish the same consideration could be given to Mike. His behavior has been based on MANY similar feelings as VDP's.

I find it sort of ironic no one ever attacked Ginger for her feelings about how Brian isn't the same person anymore (A&E bio). Yet we are condemning VDP for his feelings? For one I think it has always highly annoyed him this is all people remember him for. A record that never was propperly finished! He has done so much great work since then (his work with Inara George anyone?). We act like it should be easy to get over this, but again we weren't there when crap hit the fan.

Well, this thread isn't really about condemning VDP. It's about justifying a lot of the shitty things that Mike Love has said over the years.

and, i think, trying to figure out something about how unresolved this is for vdp. seems that mike eder et al had a "general inquisition" (already telling way to put it!)

it really doesn't every seem to GET anywhere--just raised and re-raised unreconstructed, it seems, for years and years. the questions and the answers seem as enlightening/unenlightening as ever

Me too.

Mike Love reads E.A. Poe?

Anybody still mad about something that happened 50 years ago has by definition wasted their life away. 

Mike misunderstood VDP.  We get it.

So the end result, to Van Dyke Parks, is that Mike is somebody to be discareded and ignored for 50 years.  If anybody ever sees ANY good in Mike (like, for instance, enough to stand on stage and sing songs they wrote with him) then he doesn't understand it.


What a jerk Van Dyke Parks is.  Mike Love never hated anybody for 50 years.

VDP was a p*ssy 50 years ago for letting a grown man hurt his feelings, and he's a p*ssy today for still being mad about it. 

If he has been consistently mad about for 50 years, which doesn't seem to be the case. Certainly hasn't prevented Parks from being crazy productive.

Consistantly mad enough to bitch about it any opportunity he's given.  When was the last time you heard Mike have a negative word about VDP?


Mike moved on.  He has a c*ck.  Van Dyke has lady parts.  He holds a grudge like a woman scorned.


Sorry.  It's the truth.  You can argue it all you want, but anybody still pissed 50 years later has much bigger issues than Mike Love in his life.  I've known assholes in my life, many of you probably think I'M an asshole.

Does ANYTHING I say, or anybody has said to you, still upset you 50 years later?  Of course not, that's ridiculous.  I've been fired.  I've been in fistfights.  I've lost women.  I've been robbed.  I've been insulted, embarassed....

NONE OF THAT made me hate anybody.  If somebody *ROBBED* me, two years later I wouldn't even care or recognize them.

His incredibly tedious way or writing is getting old as well.  Me thinks he's a little too smart by half. 

BTW, am I the only one seeing the Jealousy going on here first from Mike 45 years ago, now from Van Dyke 45 years later?  WHAT THE f***?

Guys, Brian has enough sweet love to go around.  Van Dyke, you can still call him if you'd like.  He'll probably even send you a Christmas card like he does Mikey.  You and Mike kiss and play fair now, Cousin Brian doesn't play favorites. 

Except here's the thing - Mike Love is in no position to have a negative word about VDP, so if his negative comments about VDP amount to anything other than zero, then it would be shameful.


I don't particularly take serious what you think makes someone a man or a woman. I ignored it the first time but since you have stuck with this infantile line of reasoning, I figure I would mention it now.

And I don't particularly give a sh*t what you're saying either, since it's wrong.

VAn Dyke still Bitches about Mike.  He's not a man, he's a little boy. 

Mike - "You suck as a songwriter"

VAn Dyke "Wahhh Wahhhh I'm going to cry for 45 years"

Mike - "I'm going to make money off your music for 45 years"

I mean who's the man, and who's the child here? 

 :lol


A staunch Mike Love supporter, folks.

You nailed it and then some. :thumbsup :thumbsup

I come on here and, ever so often, see people bitching about Van Dyke Parks bitching about Mike Love. I've read this sh*t for years; I get tired of it but we all have a right to our opinion as long as it's on par with the rules.

Likewise, VDPs has a right to bitch about Mike Love.

And, Ron: losing a possibly menial job 50 years ago is somewhat different than being harassed* out of a project which could have produced the most famous finished album in music history.

*according to VDPs. I, and no one here, knows the true story.

well. there goes ANOTHER thread! "lady parts" and VDP is childish?? fu!k

In the Smile Sessions box set. You know, in November.


Homophobic bullshit. Shut up, please.

And why does Mike not have a right to an opinion regarding VDP?

Can someone explain this to me?

This reeks of the same old "Let's hate Mike Love and blame him for everything no matter what logic or our basic understanding of human emotions tells us"

I mean, anyone saying Mike had no right to have an opinion about something his very own band was doing or anyone associated with his own band for 50 years, is really not thinking straight.

Have any of you ever been unjustly fired? Cheated on by a partner/spouse? Had a disagreement with a family member, band member, co-worker? Did you vigorously defend your position(s) or did you just take your punches and hold resentment for the rest of your life?

We make choices during our lives. Plain and simple. We can't often control what happens to ourselves and others, but what we can control is how we react and what we do emotionally with what we're dealt.

I love it how so many of us sit here and pontificate about Mike's choices like angels sent from heaven pretending we couldn't relate in a million years. It's nauseating.

 

Can you explain where anyone said that?


What does? That thing you just made up?

This statement is what I was asking about:

"Except here's the thing - Mike Love is in no position to have a negative word about VDP, so if his negative comments about VDP amount to anything other than zero, then it would be shameful."

Well, I wasn't talking about rights. Mike Love has the right to say whatever he wants about anything.

Are you so defensive about this that you've turned my comment into a human rights violation?

No, but you bring up a good point considering Mike's right as a human to have his own opinions and feelings about his family and family business is constantly attacked.

I just asked you to explain how Mike has no right to have any negative feelings about VDP.

Mike Love and Van Dyke Parks - Why must they be referred to as Heroes and Villains (see what I did there) in Brian's story?  Ron, your comments are over the top, rude but more importantly off base.  Mike and Van have a long history of not getting along.  Have you seen Billy Hinsche's movie with Dennis playing up the situation?  It is not just about Late 66 / early 67 (though that certainly got the ball rolling).   Ask Van about flying with Mike.  Ask Van about how he feels re: character assassination on prime time tv.  

Van dyke hasn't bitched about Mike every chance he has had, he has more often than not been a gentleman and tried to steer clear of mudslinging and name calling.  In fact we moaned for months wishing he would weigh in.  He has been hounded many times to give his thoughts on the Smile box and recent events so he finally relented.  

I respect BOTH men and value their contribution to Brian's (and The Beach Boys' work).  Neither are perfect, both have flaws but without either one, Brian's work wouldn't have been quite as spectacular.  I'm hoping the reunion brings some peace between Brian, Mike, Al, Bruce, and David.  That will mean more to all of them than the inevitable payday, I think.  Van dyke is a very nice man and his situation regarding the Beach Boys has been a tough one.  To say he is upset merely about the actions of a few months in the 1960s is not seeing the whole picture.  It would be foolish not to appreciate the challenge there.  Anyhow I'm looking forward to seeing the reunited boys at the Bowl soon.  It will no doubt remind me of the last time I was on the left coast and had a very nice chat with the very amiable Mr. Parks. Peace to all!

Where? As far as I'm concerned the only attack on Mike Love's human rights have only come directly from your own imagination. Christ, you just invented it here out of my own post which had nothing to do with that. When you can make things up that easily, something that never happens can seem like it happens "constantly."

How many times has Mike said that he loved the music Brian was making, but hated the lyrics, all the drugs, and the hanger-ons? That's essentially Mike giving VDP the finger over and over again in interviews, just discreetly.  And Mike did that time and time again during the promotion of the release of Smile, while Brian ignored it and talked about how the boys sang like angels, instead.

I never said that either.

rockandroll
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Re: What's VDP's problem?
« Reply #27 on: Today at 04:19:26 PM »
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Quote from: Ron on Today at 04:15:33 PM
Consistantly mad enough to bitch about it any opportunity he's given.  When was the last time you heard Mike have a negative word about VDP?

Except here's the thing - Mike Love is in no position to have a negative word about VDP, so if his negative comments about VDP amount to anything other than zero, then it would be shameful.

Quote
Mike moved on.  He has a clock.  Van Dyke has lady parts.  He holds a grudge like a woman scorned.

I don't particularly take serious what you think makes someone a man or a woman. I ignored it the first time but since you have stuck with this infantile line of reasoning, I figure I would mention it now.

Thanks for that. Now tell me what fantasy world you live in where "feelings" and "words" are the same thing.

words are an expression of feelings

or can be used to express feelings

what fantasy world are you in where words and feelings have nothing to do with each other?

Both of those are true. And yet that doesn't make "feelings" words and consequently doesn't change the fact that I never said that Mike Love was in no position to have negative feelings nor did I talk about his rights.

Man some people are really bringing this board downhill these days. Grown men bitching like they are in a soap opera. Grow up guys and lets keep this discussion board a bit more civilized

You are really good at making up a lot of sh*t aren't you?

Rocknroll (who's posts I love),

That's splitting hairs.

Of course it means basically the same damn thing: whether you use the words "words" or "feelings"

You said Mike is in no position to have a negative word about VDP! Feelings motivate words. So, please explain.

Soap Opera?

R&R, I know about you and my wife, and I'm OK with it...... I think.

Yes. Exactly. Mike even says, in the boxed set notes, that he feels the lyrics were taking the group in a bad direction. How is VDP supposed to take that, anyway? It's not like the lyrics magically appeared from somewhere. They were the creation of one man, arguably the only collaborator to match Brian's genius.

Now, I don't think Mike is a heel to say that. He's within his rights, and I actually applauded him at the time for sticking to his guns. But words have consequences. And if you're going to poke and prod Van Dyke's work for decades, you have to assume that he will answer back.

Amen.

And for the record, I'm waiting for someone to translate VDP's rambling to English. Some people never should have been introduced to a thesaurus....

Clang Of The Yankee Reaper!

Someone needs to ask VDP about that album!

I've always found it absolutely fascinating!

OK - first, thanks for the compliment  :lol

Let's not get semanticky here but I really don't think I am splitting hairs. Yes, feelings can motivate words, though as someone who studies these things, words aren't only motivated by feeling. In fact, one could easily say that society motivates words more than feelings - they prescribe what can and can't be said, what is acceptable and what isn't, and so on. But more strongly, even while sometimes some feelings motivate some words, ultimately feelings aren't words and I simply wasn't commenting on Mike Love's feelings. If I said he was in no position to have feelings, I would be making a comment about his psychological makeup (or, maybe, his intergalactic species) more than anything else. As it stands, I am saying that he is in no position to have said a negative word about VDP, and if I could qualify it further, I might say "in public" -- though, I somewhat take that as a given, since I don't have access to any of the player's private discussions here. And, I can only really answer that by asking a question in return: what is a negative thing that Mike Love could say about VDP that would be justifiable? I'm talking about personal criticism here, not professional.




I'm glad you cut me some slack. After all, I had just returned from the dead.

VAN DYKE'S MESSAGE, TRANSLATED


I admit I left the Smile project. But I can't believe Brian has reunited with the group. It's a money grab, pure and simple.


Mike stopped Smile from being released, because he was jealous that I was writing the lyrics.


Mike has blamed me for drugs coming into Brian's life and music. This is bullsh*t. Also, TM sucks.


Other famous authors used drugs. They changed the world, just like we could if Mike hadn't interfered.


They wanted to make art, aside from any concern of who got credit or what mind-altering substances they were ingesting.


Again, it's all about the money. And Dennis and Carl are dead. [I have no idea about that anecdotal sentence.]


Too bad Brian isn't backing me up on this. Oh well. Good luck, guys.

"And, I can only really answer that by asking a question in return: what is a negative thing that Mike Love could say about VDP that would be justifiable? I'm talking about personal criticism here, not professional."


Hmmmmm, well, he could say what he has said: that he didn't like the lyrics and didn't like the people feeding Brian drugs. That's basically all he's said. And those are both personal and professional criticisms (if that's the right word), so I think the nature of how these two guys have dealt with the subjects gives us little room to any concrete conclusions.

All I know is, this subject fascinates me from both a pro and anti Mike standpoint, and it really does affect how I treat and communicate with people on a day to day basis.

Your previous reply was very well put, Rocknroll and I highly respect where you're coming from.

Feeling's mutual.


Annnnnnnnnd scene.

"Lady parts"? Is there something inherently bad or weak about being a woman? Please. I hate this line of argument. Next post, you compare him to a child. Are you equating women with children? Think about what you say, please.

+1

:lol

I know what he meant, was just voicing my annoyance with the way he talks. I'm not the biggest VDP fan (absolutely NO issue with him personally, though).

I'd say that neither Mike nor VDP are doing themselves proud. They both had issues with SMiLE. If issues mattered they both are guilty. However imo, neither one of them had much if any influence on Brian's desire to bag SMiLE and their issues didn't matter and they are wasting time blaming each other for things that didn't matter.

That's an incredibly sexist thing to say.  >:(

Wow from reading this thread I deduce Mike Love is a hero and VDP is a villain.

Further proof the Beach Boys universe has more twists and turns than either politics or pro wrestling.

Agreed, wow. That guy sounds like a straight up hater.

Oh, most definitely.

I can understand VDP's anger, though agreed it isn't particuarly pleasant to read him ranting on the net like that.
But...
Mike WAS negative re Smile, both at the time (as has been noted by numerous persons Who Were Actually There) and since (see the general bashing of Smile and VDP in the almost-unforgiveable Mike-backed An American Family film). There seems to be a lot of history revision going on, not just by Mike but fans also ('He appears on the Smile sessions, therefore he must've been supportive of them'). Mike has stated on several occasions that he didn't particuarly like Smile (Endless Harmony: 'I didn't resonate with the music... It didn't make any sense to me'); now that it's being released however, to an inevitable chorus of praise by fans and critics, he's proclaiming that actually he kinda likes Smile after all. I can get why this must p*ss VDP off somewhat, but he should just let the matter drop... Let Mike write his defensive, contradictory sleeve notes and keep a dignified silence. Your place and role in the BB's history is impressive and irremoveable - relax.

I think that behind the pretentious language (and yes it is undeniably pretentious) you can get a real glimpse at his various emotions...

Worried, clearly, that the recent release of Smile and the reunion tour will stop Mike from seeming to be the bad guy in everything.

Jealous that Brian will be working with the band again and not with him.

Bitter, understandably, about how he has been portrayed by Mike and that Mike disliked his work in the first place.

Irrational - Even if you agree that Mike was responsible for Smile not coming out at the time, nobody could say that he has been responsible for it not being released for so long.

Guilty because, in spite of the attempts at self-condonement, he knows that Brian's drug use caused him a huge amount of damage. Sure, that wasn't Van Dyke's fault but there's no way that he can look back on his time taking drugs with Brian with any pride.

And envious that the band are going to make a stackload of cash again for this whereas he was once forced to play on SIP to pay the bills. Ouch.

This could've been a great thread

That's funny, from reading this thread i deduced Ron was an ass.

Agreed.  And a tad out of character, despite the oft-stated dislike that exists between the two.


Agreed, and there's nothing "almost" forgivable about American Family.  From the very start of the film it portrays Brian as some kind of Quasimodo half-wit and Mike as the cool, handsome brains behind the Beach Boys success.  It should never have been made.


I think the truth lies somewhere ion the middle. I'm sure Mike does love Wonderful and so-on, but at the same time I'm sure he'd've strangled SMiLE at birth if he hadn't been off around the world busking while Brian was at the coal face.

I'm sure this is what must piss VDP off the most, that history is in grave danger of being re-written by the band reforming and that his substantial contribution to SMiLE and the Beach Boys/Brian WIlson legacy could be overlooked, relegated to little more than a few song credits. We know the total was even greater than the sum of its considerable parts. It must be exasperating in the extreme.  Mike has reclaimed some of his own (deserved) legacy among fans in recent years but maybe there's a danger that their entire history will be looked on with rose tinted glasses. Thankfully we have our historians to keep things on the track.


Goes back to the first part of our posts. Perhaps not to let the matter drop, but to reassert the dignity with which VDP is and always has been associated.

We'll fly his flag for years to come.

Thank you John, for saying what I wanted to if there was only more coffee  :lol

Ten years ago I'm fairly sure most of us would've loved this statement by VDP... or maybe I should say, I know I would have loved it.

Since then, things have changed but I still think some of his points may be perfectly valid.

This is the essay he wrote was for The SMiLE Sessions box set liner notes book but he apparently had other commitments and was unable to meet the submission deadline.  :hat ;)

There's more to his 'agenda' than just Mike.

Is all.

I'm not doubting you, but half of his essay is focused on Mike. You can see why people are focusing on Mike when discussing the essay:
"I comment only to combat any doubt that Mike Love delayed the release of Smile by 40 years purely out of a mislaid jealousy. Smile was a obviously good work.

Mike's instrument? An insinuation that I promoted drugs that infected the lyrical outcome. That isn't so. He continues this charge to-date, in a pretext of righteous indignation cloaked in a thin veneer of religiosity ("Transcendental Meditation").

Love should study writers he professes to admire: Dickens; Poe; Conan-Doyle; then cite Beaudelaire; Satchmo; Freud, and a legion of similar creative authors whose civility brought beauty to their times, through deftly talented, although drugged doses."

My 2 cents. Please no anger these are just my observations or views. I respect others opinions that don't concur with mine.
Van Dyke always struck me as pretentious and bitter. Even in the 1971 Rolling Stone article he is nasty to Brian. Hey I love Smile and Sail On Sailor but Come To The Sunshine aside nothing else Van Dyke has done entertains me. I just don't like those kind of "too cool for school" people.  Mike isn't an angel, nor has he always done or said the right thing, but he has brought me far more entertainment (pre 1976) than Van Dyke and that's ultimately how I judge artists. I don't really care if someone is a jerk or not. The grooves matter nothing else.

Mike's interest and growth through TM is sincere and if those are his views spiritually why attack that? The good in Brian's relationship with The Beach Boys far outweighs the bad at least if we are talking pre Landy. Even now I think all the surviving Beach Boys do love Brian and he them. They are a family and I for one can relate to their success and (thankfully not currently) their dysfunction.  I am a Beach Boys fan far more than I am of any individual in the band. I think they are special group who really went well together. I'm glad it wasn't just Mike or just Brian or even just Dennis (by far the best on his own) THE BEACH BOYS as a group were the best. If the Grammy's is anything to go by they are going to end it right.

Did Van dyke have an agenda to take part in the reunion album and Mike wouldn't let him?

After everything Mike has done to Brian over the years I can definitely see Van Dyke's point.  The Boys have almost never stopped touring but only when they get Brian back is it made into a big deal, they are using him. The new album will be terrible, I can't see how it will be any good at all.  I'd rather they'd let the whole thing go but that's just my opinion. I know a lot of you are excited about the 50 years and I totally understand, I just hope it doesn't hurt Brian even more.

That's highly impropable.

Not much chance of that. Interviewers have said in the past that Brian would start shaking violently when The Beach Boys were mentioned which indicates how scarred he had been left by things. Now no matter what people think of the other band members there is obviously no way that it was healthy for Brian to react like that so it should be a positive thing for Brian to be exorcizing those demons.

well I thought van dyke seemed nasty talking about the reunion like he had been cut out of the action. Who knows what this man's agenda is at the this point. Both mike and van dyke need to let their grudge end because it's not healthy to hate for 45 years

Given that Van Dyke appears on SIP and Kokomo, I would say he tried.

The man's experiences with Mike go far beyond Smile, in both time and extent.

Small problem with your premise here - Brian wasn't dragged kicking and screaming into this C50 project, he was approached and agreed to take part, and right now, he's enjoying it (don't ask how I can be so sure, just accept that if it wasn't so I wouldn't be dumb enough to post it on a public forum) and enjoying being part of a band again. The new album sessions have seemingly been agreeable and proceeded smoothly. I think the album will be nothing less than acceptable.

I don't doubt he went willingly and never said anything to the contrary but I can see what Van might think about the whole thing, he saw the drama first hand.  I hope the tour goes well, I really do. I'm not sold on the album and not sure I want to hear it but again that's me.  I can't help but think old wounds will be reopened as the tour goes on.

Sorry, but VDP wrote some lyrics for some songs on Brian's abandoned Smile album decades ago and we are supposed to care what he thinks about this reunion because..............? Mike and the fellow Beach Boys involvement with Brain has spanned long before and long after VDP brief period with Brian, one that VDP walked away from.

How many times is this nonsense going to brought up? Mike sang VDP lyrics for MONTHS on end while everyone worked with Brian during TSS. Were they going to spend 3 more years working on Smile? It was too much even for Brian to get a grip on and sadly it fell apart. It was Brian's call, and VDP had already walked away. Maybe VDP regrets his own CHOICE to walk away, maybe not....but to start spewing BS when the surviving Beach Boys are about to make thousands of their fans happy one last time is petty and self indulgent.

No one said we have to care. VDPs just wrote a note on his own website...he didn't ask anyone to respond to it.
_____

And I wouldn't be so quick to bash VDPs or Mike on this one. NONE of us were there when all this went down. And as I said before, this album had the potential to be the most famous finished album in pop-music history; I think all parties involved have a right to their opinion about it.

During the time that the Gershwin album and tour were coming together and after, I seem to remember Brian being asked about his thoughts on a BBs 50th reunion more than once.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but he made it clear that he had no interest in working with Mike Love/the BBs again.

"Acceptable" doesn't sound particularly optimistic, but I have heard others express hope that the new album will be good. I'm not quite sure I understand the logic. The BBs have not made a decent album in decades. Brian has made several good albums, yet every time he releases something people say they have doubts that it will be any good. I hope, hope, hope that with Brian relatively healthy right now, the new BBs album will be decent. But I don't know how people can necessarily think it will be acceptable, let alone good.

Obviously someone is supposed to care, otherwise he would not have posted it. And having a right to an opinion is a given, but when you exercise your right, don't expect others not to express their opinion in return. VDPs knows what he is doing. Why I'm not sure.

VDP is a very literate guy and so he more than likely knows how history works - namely those who have more power are the ones whose vision of history is remembered most. And while us obsessees probably find this hard to see, given how much information we pore over, it really is Mike Love's vision that is ultimately being understood as the correct version of events for the reason that Mike Love has way more cultural capital than Van Dyke Parks: he is much more widely known showbusiness figure than Parks and he is association with The Beach Boys is widely known to the point that many people associate him symbolically as The Beach Boys. Consequently, even without Mike Love's hand, we probably still would have seen what was ultimately an appalling caricature of Van Dyke Parks in that American Family film, which worked to tarnish Parks's name to a wide mainstream audience and would have probably done so more had Parks not stepped in to get the name changed. Again, we here have watched clip after clip and interview after interview but the same level of obsession that most of us share is not held by mainstream audiences. They take what they are given and they go to the sources that they consider to be most trustworthy - and in that case, a familiar face like Mike Love's is much more trustworthy than some guy they barely know despite his own musical legacy. Van Dyke probably knows how historical narratives work and that he stands to unfairly lose, big time. When a man is drowning, don't you expect him to scream?

Imagine if VDP always said stuff like this: "I loved the lyrics and Brian's work on Smile, but the bass vocals were terrible."

"I didn't like all the hanger-ons from Brian's family hurting him emotionally and causing all of those problems."

Because basically, that is what Mike does, just with the different terms filling in the blanks.

Van Dyke is giving his perspective on Mike and Smile - he was there and this latest pronouncement gives us important information to add to the Smile picture.  Unlike all of you who weren't there, and whose assessments of Van Dyke's and Mike's respective opinions and comments don't amount to a hill of beans.  Yeah, I know that's what we do here, but can we try to keep it civil? 

Van Dyke is a prickly guy.  Polite mostly, but pungent when pushed.  On virutally any topic he has opined upon, not just the BB.  Hadn't you noticed?  Only been, say, for the past 45 years or so.

There's no "jealousy" or "lingering hurt."  Van Dyke saved the Beach Boys' career more than once when he worked for Warner Brothers.  He did a suite for the Pet Sounds tour, and did narratives for TLOS.  He played on BB sessions repeatedly.  He butted heads with Brian too, more than once.  And he is hardly inactive now, working with Skrillex and Joanna Newsom, doing his own shows with Clare and the Reasons, using them as his Wondermints, reimagining "Heroes and Villains" as a salon orchestra operetta. If he were just sitting around clipping coupons, that would be different.

What there is, is this: Mike and Van Dyke don't get along, never will, though they can work together, and have.  Each has his truth, and neither will budge.  Mike took his swipe at Van in the TSS book, and you will note Van himself did NOT weigh in with his own essay there.  The information suggests he didn't want to.  Why should he?  He had said his piece, happily, when Smile was finished.  His Xmas rant was reacting to the repeated insinuation in Mike's essay that the lyrics were too druggy, and yes there were a lot of drugs, so thus Van Dyke was the Pusher Man.  Maybe that's not a fair reading, and until now I hadn't thought of it that way, but that reading is not inconceivable, either.  Maybe Van overreacted a bit; I think far fewer people care at this point.  OK, nice.  What's for dessert?  

In other words, like so many things BB, it's complicated.  Anyone up for a dinner bet that, by the time the new LP is done, Van contributes a lyric?

I equate your "decent" to AGD's "acceptable".  Notice Andrew says "Nothing less than...". I'll use "fair". Here's to hoping it is more than all three. :)

Although I am not a follower of any fan-type VDP mythology (I think his solo music is earnest and less than important), I appreciate his mind, and, most relevant, his statement respecting the importance of the Beach Boys' music.  It was in that old video (Seventies)...where he was quoted (and shown) appreciating an art that respects that place where the water meets the land.  

Brian himself has said that the reunion is largely motivated by money.  Is that disappointing?  Yes, for me and for VDP.  None of the Beach Boys best work after 1966 (except for some of the tours) has had being commercial as a primary goal.

Hallucinogenic drugs are strong medicine and Brian was hurt by them.  But does that mean that VPD is wrong when he asserts that great art and illumination have emerged from them?  In my view, no.  It's a point that needs to be made.

All of us have entered into some situations for the sake of money and then have gained greatly from them in different ways: wisdom, friendship, etc.  Brian and Melinda may have agreed to the 50th to earn a stash for the family, but to be really enjoying renewed friendship and artistic creativity.  I hope so.  VPD hopes so too.  I take his last paragraph to be an expression of genuine good wishes and guarded hopes.

I may have missed the answer to this somewhere along the way, and I apologize if it's been documented here or elsewhere in an interview with Van Dyke recently. A very basic question:

Why didn't Van contribute an essay for the Smile Sessions book?  Did he just want to take a back seat with this and let Brian get all the 'glory' for it? He was in the spotlight briefly and was interviewed back in '04 for BWPS and even showed up for the RFH Smile show in London to a standing ovation. Why did he maintain a somewhat low profile this time for this Beach Boys Smile release?

Simply put, we don't know. He might consider his work in 2004 to be the final word on the subject. He might just be sick of talking about it. He might have stepped back from proceedings to ensure it went smoothly. But it's all speculation at this point.

"Why didn't Van contribute an essay for the Smile Sessions book?  Did he just want to take a back seat with this and let Brian get all the 'glory' for it? He was in the spotlight briefly and was interviewed back in '04 for BWPS and even showed up for the RFH Smile show in London to a standing ovation. Why did he maintain a somewhat low profile this time for this Beach Boys Smile release?"

Only Mr. Doe has suggested that he knows, and he ain't talkin.  I suspect that he feels like he has already been through the accolades for that work, done in the distant past, and doesn't want to be bothered by it this time around -- his contribution is already recognized and honored, and he has already said about Smile what he wants to say.

Actually, AGD indicated once in my readings, that someone who made a guess was on the right track. Unfortunately I can't really remember - maybe, something about VDP doing something himself with the Smile material? Can't really recall and nobody else seemed to pick up on it.

After reading the interview at the top of this thread, it made me think about it again as to why we never saw a VDP essay in the TSS book. Maybe there's still a little animosity that exists between Van Dyke and Mike and/or Brian and like you say he just wants to be absolved of discussing it - maybe it opens up sensitivities again or he's said all he's going to about it. My thoughts are that at minimum, they could have had Van authorize an old interview with statements and publish that in the the TSS book.....  

Word.  Another thing that bothered me...why did he put the word 'author' in quotes right in front of your name? I thought that was a bit shitty.


For a long time whenever the BB made an album, there was too much excess baggage for it to be 'good' ( I for one like the post Holland albums for the most part, although not nearly as much as what came before). Whether it was Brian being high/depressed, Dennis and Carl having their own issues, Landy entering the picture, Al & Mike having a falling out...something was always standing in their way. This time, it seems as their legacy is the most important thing to them, and it seems they *want* to go out on top. Never underestimate the power of motivation can have on the quality of a product.

One more thing...when reading this thread, did anybody else flash back to Brian's drunken version of Barbara Ann, where he says "Van Dyke Parks is the biggest butthole in the world"? I don't know which is funnier...the fact he said that out of nowhere, or the fact that he actually said butthole rather than asshole.

Wish i could believe that, but anyone else just thinking in their gut: Man this new album is going to be awful.

I wish they'd just drop it. Enough attempts were made to tarnish their rep in the '80's - it'd be so much better if they just STOPPED! Let the bands incredible back catalogue speak for itself. Release more of the (superb) unreleased material from their prime if they really wanna release something.

Yeah it's nice to see 'em getting together in the Do It Again video, but that's the only nice thing about it. I'd just rather they got together in private and finally just left the legacy alone.

No, SIP can't be the last BBs album.

I thought immediately about posting that, but thought it was a little outta context. I think I have a recording of that somewhere. Was it at Ringo Starr's party or somewhere else where Brian said that. Didn't he say it over the PA?

"Brian, cut the sh*t and sit down right here and write this middle-eight!"

Yeah, it was Ringo's birthday. Brian was clearly intoxicated. I always thought it was a case of gentle ribbing - that maybe Van Dyke was in the large audience of people laughing along.

I just have to ask.......

Did it make VDP happy in the least when Brian did Smile in 2004 and got VDP standing ovations and got him all over the Beautiful Dreamer docu (and in the best possible light) .... ?

Did it make VDP happy at all that Capitol actually released The Smile Sessions with his lyrics intact and with him credited?

What would be enough at this point for him?

Why does he care that The Beach Boys will be going out there and playing their hits that he had nothing to do with?

He does seem to suggest that what they do artistically could be great. So I think that's the wrong question.

Mike has criticized VDP's lyrics, and points him as part of an entourage that took his cousin from that safety zone they'd shared in their teenage years.

VDP attacks Mike Love whenever he has the chance. He comes up with the L word even if no one asks him. He does so, for instance, in the recent online interview with O'Hagan.

People far more talented than Parks, who is a great talent himself (and according to many, including  Mike Love, a nice guy), have had their fits of bitterness. Beethoven, for example (why would the biggest musical talent of the world then have to hold bitterness? What did he have to prove?). One can indulge VDP for this most human trait. It can happen to all of us at one time or another.

Let us dig his work and let the man in peace.

Maybe he's afraid they'll be playing some Smile stuff with Mike all enthusiastic and hugging Brian onstage: things like that.

Now, that I could understand bugging him greatly.

Not really.  I'm actually looking forward to it very much, and I was extremely skeptical in the beginning.  But ever since hearing that they are not as single-driven with writing these songs, and that Al has already labeled it "Pet Sounds" level of goodness and the song titles we know of so far aren't cheesey--all point to a well-intended album.  I'm not expecting a masterpeice (but I wouldn't be totally surprised if it happened) but I'm passed the point where I think it's going to be a disaster.

What I"m more worried about is if the album gets finished at all.  In the latest Mike/Brian interview they reveal that the album is half finished.  With them going back to work on it in "a couple weeks" as Mike says, that only leaves them about a month and change till their first show of the tour. I'm not sure how many days they want to devote to rehearsals but I recall Al's expectations some time ago to be several weeks of rehearsals.  I remember him saying in an interview how it takes a lot of work to get a tour going and he's up for the challenge, saying something like "we gotta get in there, rehearse like hell for a few weeks" and get out on the road.  Not sure if Al still feels the same way but it seems like they may have bitten more than they can chew here with anticipating that the album would be done before they get on the road.  I just pray that the songwriting doesn't suffer because of the time restraints or worst of all...the album is shelved.

I don't think Van Dyke has ever struck me as bitter. A bit pretentious, sure. That's his schtick; same as Mike's fun in the sun attitude.

I've never seen him as "too cool for school," either. What a curious thing to say. Do you think that the mere possession of a big vocabulary and musical ability means that someone is putting themselves above you? That seems pretty rockist and anti-intellectual to me. I mean, he has labored in the trenches for decades, churning out film scores and arrangements, without a lot to show for it. I don't think that's "too cool" at all -- it's someone who loves their chosen field so much that they have sacrificed for it.

I'm glad that you feel entertained by Mike. He has often been entertaining. But Van Dyke is the only lyricist who has worked with Brian who remotely equaled the music, and Surf's Up, Wonderful, Cabinessence and Heroes and Villains are perhaps the highest peaks of Brian and his band's output. Van Dyke's lyrics and conceptual framework are essential to the best music Brian ever made.


Just because you like a group doesn't make them all equally talented, good or essential. And just because they have shared history doesn't mean that it's automatically right -- artistically or personally -- to collaborate again. The work will show us one way or another. Although Brian's repeated citation of the money to be made can't be reassuring, can it?

Not sure off the top of my head, but it may have to do with the fact he went completely deaf. You're right of course though. That miserable f*@ker should have torn up the Heiligenstadt testament and just got on with things.

 I don't think that came across as 'rockist' and 'anti-intellectual' at all. I can't speak for Mike, but his seeming pretentiousness annoys the hell out of me, and anyone who thinks I myself am 'anti-intellectual' knows jack sh*t about me, and I would take offense to that.

Just my opinion, but liking them has nothing to do with it. One just has to listen to Sunflower, for instance, to know that they really were a special group who went really well together.

As for Brian's bringing up of money, well... Mike's been talking a lot about the artistic side of the band, hasn't he? Considering Brian and Mike's rather wry senses of humor, doesn't anybody else think in a way they're fucking with us?

"I'm glad that you feel entertained by Mike. He has often been entertaining. But Van Dyke is the only lyricist who has worked with Brian who remotely equaled the music"

Can't agree with this at all.

If you're ONLY talking about the Smile music: maybe so (and even then it's arguable)

The most stirring and emotional parts of Smile for me are both Our Prayer, Good Vibrations and Surfs Up, and VDP only had something to do with one of those songs.

I think Mike, Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Roger Christian were all up to the task as well and they're words are as important to Brian's music as the music.

Another possibility ... Maybe Van did contribute an essay for the Smile Sessions box.  Maybe parts of it sounded like his recent diatribe and he was asked to modify it but he refused, causing it to be rejected.

I've just been assuming there was some conflict over money or rights or something.

I'm just glad I'm not still raked over the coals for some stupid merda I did or said when I was still in my mid 20's!

Sheesh!

:wall :deadhorse

That very well could be, CM.

My favorite Van Dyke Parks moment:

Standing in front of Tower Records on Sunset Blvd. talking about the Beach Boys coming off the road and "people were making fun of them - they were wearing tennies". And referring to the surf lyrics of the past as "dim widdie pearl" or whatever it was. He said, "But the Beach Boys were denied they were ever at the beach."

"Dennis Wilson - he had a lotta meat - he could take me like straw in the wind".   Ha Ha Ha!   Always liked that one from VDP.   

Those are good songs/recordings, but just that you like them doesn't mean they're the best. To each their own. Each and everyone of Brian's other collaborators' work is essential to the best songs they took part in.

Wow Ron, making truisms that you can't possibly back up - this is so unlike you. "By definition," VDP has wasted his life away because, as you infer, he has "hated" Mike for 50 years. So what is the definition for wasting one's life away? Is it defined in Webster's? Or just Ron's fevered imagination?

Mike Love never hated anybody for 50 years? Are you privileged enough to have inside access to Mike's brain? I love Mike Love, but brother, when you post like this, you do him no favors.

The more I read from you, the more I think you are just trolling. If this is the case, bravo, I've been snared. If not, stating things in the way that you often do is unproductive and speaks to an insecurity about your own ideas. It may work sometimes on impressionable people, but most of us want to have a reasonable dialogue and are turned off by truisms and tautologies. You are becoming another version of oldsurferdude, without his saving grace: the funny persona.

"I'm Ron, and this is how things are. No more discussion." Do you talk this way to people in real life? Does it severely limit your circle of friends? Perhaps you should get a job as a political pundit. Seriously - is this schtick, or is this really the way you communicate? I'd imagine if you are indeed a troll, you are a skilled, intelligent troll who sometimes makes good and insightful points, only to ruin them with utter beligerence and hard-headedness. Frankly, it makes you look bad.

AGD can also be harsh, but for some reason he has never rubbed me the wrong way. Perhaps it is the fact that he is secure in his own ideas and his own charms - even in the rare instance that he is unyielding yet turns out to be wrong, I like the guy.

I suppose bothering to respond to this nonsense is, by the definition of Ron's Beligerent Dictionary, wasting my life away. Ugh. If you are really not a troll, try to step outside yourself and read your posts as if you were not the person writing them. You might be surprised at what you find.

 
[/quote
I love Oldsurferdude's Myke and Bruth bashing because  it is funny and something different when everybody gives Mike more respect these days. 8)

I love Oldsurferdude's Myke and Bruth bashing because  it is funny and something different when everybody gives Mike more respect these days. 8)
[/quote]
Agreed. It is an entertaining schtik and it has its place. The BS from this other guy needs to go, though; it is making this board into a toxic environment.

da don't Ron, Ron.

The quote system has our quotes mixed up. EDIT: fixed it.

Keep in mind that it took OSD many years to be perceived as funny. He has been posting the same tirade for over a decade now. In fact, I think that his perseverance rendered him endearing, more than funny.

Nothing funny about VDP's 40-year-old tirade, though.

Ok, let me get this straight: first vdp has "lady parts" and now he's being a "kitty"? Wow. I'm speechless. No, wait, I'm not. You are a jerk and your attitude towards women is AWFUL and shameful and stupid and archaic and childish and hateful.

 NOW I'm speechless.

Well him using my name because I stated the truth about Brian ending Smile in an interview was pretty bizarre wasn't it? I gave and give Van Dyke a lot of credit for his words for the 1966 sessions, but pointed out gently that him leaving didn't exactly help Brian finish the record. Again all I can say is that his reaction to my mild critique shows the fact that he doesn't like anyone sticking up for the group.  I just think "too cool for school" described him because he always came off as though he had a superior attitude. He's just not my kind of person. Mike isn't totally either but he explained his side with class in the Smile box and had he not we would be calling him a coward. I never got to interview Mike or Van Dyke but like I do with everyone else in my book I would have let them each say their piece and then done the research to try to bring balance. I don't have an axe to grind until he posted this but I'm bigger than that and I've said the same things about Van Dyke here in my seven years of posting.

BTW I think Brian and Dennis were the most talented but I like how they all blended together and enjoy the best work from each of them.. They didn't all have an equal part to add but if you take out the contributions of anyone in the group and I feel you would have a lesser body of work. They and they alone have that magic blend when they mix their talents properly. If they do it right it will be great, if they don't well at least they did one last thing together.

Rockist and anti-intellectual? I hate rock snobbery as much as intellectual. I have no problems with bright people I just don't like being made to feel like he thinks he's better than me. If he wants to deny my career, or make light of it with the quotes than let him have his fun but it is smarmy.

All I can say is that for years Van Dyke had a publicly available e-mail address (he printed it in the OCA booklet) and would correspond with just about anyone who wrote to him.

Doesn't seem that elitist or condescending to me.

But yeah, if you take a swipe at someone, why is it amazing that they take a swipe back? Is Van Dyke less than human because he collaborated with Brian Wilson?

Didn't take a swipe, I just spoke my opinion. Him being out there for access doesn't mean he isn't a bit snobby. Please don't take any of this personally, I would be far more happy if he understood that I am not negating his work, I just don't agree with his take on things. Brian himself told me in 1999 that the post Smile years were great as far as how he and the band worked together. If it went down like Parks would have you think, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, and Break Away all would not exist. 20/20, Surf's Up, So Tough, and Holland also all have key moments from Brian. It just wasn't this war between the group at that time and frankly I don't understand why Van Dyke would or should care what they do now. Smile was a hit two times, his 1966 and 1972 work with Brian is loved by many, me included. However I feel the story isn't Brian and the five assholes and nothing he can say will make me change my mind.

You spoke your opinion directly to him. Oh, sorry: "pointed out gently that him leaving didn't exactly help Brian finish the record." I mean, forget about how he actually did help Brian finish it in 2003. Or how he has always been willing to co-write and support Brian in the decades since.

That counts as a swipe, I'm afraid. And if you hope to be an author, you're playing on a public stage. Get used to it.

This is what Van Dyke is upset about. I did a three part interview http://www.examiner.com/pop-culture-in-national/i-can-hear-music-author-mike-eder-reveals-his-dream-project-on-the-beach-boys-1
and I guess he took issue with it. Part two is the part I would think he had a problem with, but I was again just stating what I thought personally on an issue I have studied since 1988. I did mention that he wrote some new stuff for Smile, but I admitted I liked his old lyrics better. That isn't a swipe.

I am an author and have been for over twenty years. I am used to it as I had trial by fire by David Leaf back when I was starting. I knew by not following the Leaf line of thought I was going to have some garbage thrown at me. I don't mind that. I was just asked a question in an interview and answered it. I did just email Van Dyke to explain my position because I felt it was only right, but he shouldn't drag me into statements that I find to be unbecoming. Just because he is Van Dyke doesn't mean he is any different from you or I. I treat him the same as anyone else. If I don't like something anyone has done in The Beach Boys world I say it. If I do I say that too. I'm just being honest. I don't know the man, but everything he has said in public in the last dozen or so years on the Beach Boys doesn't make him look good in my eyes. Thus I formed the opinion that he is bitter about it. I would of course give him an open fourm in my book to state his mind and give me his side. I just don't happen to like what I have read in other places. Aren't I allowed? Anyhow read the interview and then tell me what you think. Again no harm no foul personally.

You mean the one VDP played on?

That's not an opinion...that's the truth. How in the hell was Brian going to finish Smile minus his collaborator? Of course, what many of us overlook is that Parks didn't leave  because of Mike Love...he left on account of Brian's 'behavior'.

Didn't he also have a solo record deal waiting as well?

Again I want to point out that he read an interview with me, but if he asked me to my face I would tell him the same thing. I don't blame him at all, but him leaving was not a good thing. Mike didn't tell him to stop coming around. He had a solo record deal and he took it. He thought it may help the situation as well. That's fine and again it's not something to blame him for. I just mentioned that as part of the many reasons the LP didn't come out. Not one word is unfounded in my interview nor here.

Yes and that's to me the main reason he left.

A great irony if I must say because Van Dyke was involved on both the most arty album (smile) and most commercial crap album (SIP)

His ticket out of the SMiLE saga and the Beach Boys....

More or less.

was he M(iddle age)SD back then?

MSD probably had more people agreeing with him as well when Mike was plain crazy  from the success of kokomo.

Can we PLEASE pass around a hat/start a fund to get OSD one of these:

http://vipnation.com/programs/beach-boys/

(Beach Boys: Ultimate VIP Package (Front Row + Meet & Greet + Soundcheck)

    One reserved ticket in the front row
    Exclusive meet & greet with members of the Beach Boys
    Personal photograph with the Beach Boys
    Special access to the Beach Boys soundcheck
    Specially designed tour t-shirt
    Collectible tour poster (limited, numbered)
    Official meet & greet laminate
    Commemorative ticket
    Exclusive tour tote bag
    Early entry into the venue
    On-site VIP host)


He really needs to be humbled by the presence of Mike  >:D

Lets start the OSD fund! ;D

It's amazing how much insight people have on what went on and what the intentions and motivations were of artists without actually being there or even born at the time.

Hey our children's children's children will be arguing and pontificating about this stuff 50 years from now.

People are also still discussing the intentions/motivations of Nero, Hitler, JFK,  and Jesus Christ too.

You ask people who were there questions you find film, newspaper, books, and audio and you form your view. Insider books are almost always less accurate than those where research is done by a fan for fans. One exception is Bill Wyman from the Stones who has most of the facts right as he kept track of everything in his 30 years with them.

Yep, that's what I was getting at.

I made that point in the interview actually. It would suck for people to know all the stupid things I did back when I was young.

The way I read that interview, VDP seems to be upset that his lyrics have been repeatedly dismissed by ML as 'druggy' ramblings and incomprehensible when VDP (among many others) feels the lyrics were artistic, deep and abstract while still being meaningful prose.  I would firmly agree with VDP while agreeing with ML that most listeners would not 'get it'.  

Based on my personal 'conversations' with VDP, I would summise firstly that he is not pleased with the way Brian is 'handled' (hence the "....led into this reunion" comment) and also that he is displeased with the way his 'esoteric' lyrics have consistenly been disregarded by ML as the primarily 'weak link' in the commerical appeal and 'non-support' of the SMiLE album.

In correspondence I had with VDP years ago, he expressed his dissatisfaction with the fact the Brian Camp was unwilling to sign off on a remastered re-release of Orange Crate Art.  It still has not seen a reissue.  OCA is a GREAT album and deserves to be available remastered on CD and on vinyl as well.   VDP also commented on how stiff and impersonable Brian's handler's were in delivering him by limo to the recording sessions for OCA and how they demanded BW have a break at a designated time for a special chicken salad sandwich lunch.  

I am also sure I had read an interview with VDP around the time of the 'That Lucky Old Sun' release where VDP stated something like Brian was ...."working on an album as an ode to California, I wonder where he got that idea."  Touche' sir.

NightHider I like your post on this.

Funny I love his Smile lyrics so why put me in the heading? I did write him tonight so I hope he understands I am just trying to take a middle ground.  Personally I don't think anyone would let Mike Love dictate what they like or not. I would  have no problem with the Van Dyke  except I honestly think he just makes himself look bad everytime he attacks Mike. Parks should get as much chance to talk as Mike, but Mike has never gotten personal with Van Dyke in public. In fact he has even said he likes him.

I don't like OCA that much as of now, but vinyl can open me up to sounds and I would like the chance to hear it in that format.

I am always open to hearing good things about Parks or anyone. Again my only seriousl objection is the stuff he has been saying since the TV movie came out. It's nothing to do with his work which I will always enjoy even if he puts up a dartboard of my picture.

You don't think creating a TV movie portraying Van Dyke as a drug pusher who ruined Brian's life isn't getting personal?

Really?

That was libelous, you know. The TV movie was changed under threat of legal action.

How would you feel if your good name -- one you spent decades proving as an arranger, composer and performer -- was dragged through the mud on national television? It would feel pretty personal to me, especially if that TV show was spearheaded by the person I'd butted heads with decades earlier.

And for saying his piece in a little elliptical essay on his website, Van Dyke looks bad?

Really?

Yep because he dragged me into it for no reason.

He wasn't a drug pusher in the movie . He was there during drug scenes but he wasn't a pusher at all. I've seen the movie have it on tape and I thought Van Dyke was funny in the movie. Most of the quotes were taken from real life.  Never understood why it had to be changed. Is there some sort of directors cut? Otherwise back up your unfounded claims. If he had let him use the lyrics "Smile" would have come off better and that's his own fault.  The movie sucked in the second half but more on how they treated Brian (like a drooling madman) , Dennis (like a dumb angry kid with a touch of talent), and even Mike as far as him almost hitting Brian. Doubt that happened. Why are you bothering me about it anyway I didn't write it and don't even like it. I just mentioned that's when Parks took a turn in public.  Parks has in Mojo and the other UK music mags,, the net, etc.  has been very angry sounding and nasty and  it's unbecoming no matter what Mike or anyone did. I don't like what I have read and heard periof.

Also isn't it so that Van Dyke was on speed? I've read that a few times. Not saying at all he got Brian on it but it by far was the worst drug Brian did at the time. Van Dyke isn't exactly the poster boy for being anti drug in 1966-67 was he.

What is your thing about what I think about Van Dyke as a person? It has no bearing on how I write about his music at all. Read the interview it's not anti Van Dyke it's just my views on the period. Why he took offense or you take offense (as a wise man once said) "God Only Knows".   

I give up trying to explain myself to you and I've said what I have to say and that's that. I've tried to keep cool about this and be nice but enough is enough.

When Van Dyke Parks put out his last album, did Mike Love write a commentary on a website somewhere telling you what a piece of sh*t Van Dyke Parks is?  No.  


When Mike Love decided to tour around the world with his cousin and his friends, did Van Dyke Parks decide to write a commentary about what a piece of sh*t Mike Love is?  Yes.



VDP is a bigger prick than Mike could ever be.

Brian lost a multimillion dollar lawsuit to Mike.  Yet Brian's standing on stage next to him.  How's that make Brian look?  He looks like a man, he looks like someone who forgives and forgets.

Al has been sued by Mike, but there he is on the same stage with him making good music.  How's that make Al look?  It makes him look like a man, he looks like someone who forgives and forgets.

VDP needs to

A. Shut the hell up

or

B. Pick up the phone, like a man, and call Mike up and apologize for being such a dick to him.  


Of course he won't do either, because he's a small, petty person who's not even in the same universe as Mr. positivity.  

BTW, Mike's lyrics in "Good Vibrations" are better than anything VDP ever wrote.  

Not trolling; just attacking VDP's hatred.  He decided to talk trash, so that invites more negativity.  


















Here's the dirty secret.  If you're a VDP fan, don't read this.  You'll get so mad you'll stay up another 7 pages telling me what an idiot I am.  DO NOT READ BEYOND THIS IF YOU ARE A VDP FAN.

















You know why VDP is really still mad?  Because he's all about the money.  He's pissed that in his mind, Mike didn't let the album come out, and he didn't get paid as much for it.  Now keep in mind  many of the good songs were released on other albums anyways, so ultimately what he's pissed about is that he didn't get paid enough for the half-assed songs on the album that didn't make it onto other albums.  

I know it sucks.  I wish he'd just be honest about it, he's pissed that the money he got for his contribution wasn't what he though it should be.  He should be paid, and paid well for his work, but why doesn't he just come out and THANK! Mike Love for all the money he's made off those songs over the years.

What a lot of people hate about Mike Love (his money lubbin ways) is the same affliction VDP suffers from.  

I don't understand why Van Dyke Parks should say anything about the Beach Boys' reunion.  It's none of his business.  He was never a member of the band.  His harping on Mike Love is stupid.  Brian Wilson was the person who decided not to release "Smile" and do "Smiley Smile" instead.  It's not like Van Dyke Parks' lyrics didn't get used prior to the recent release, because they did, repeatedly, both on "Smiley Smile" and on subsequent releases over the years of tracks like "Surf's Up."  Does Van Dyke know how illogical he sounds?  He's trying to greatly puff up what he meant to the Beach Boys and also Brian Wilson.  No wonder Brian has become estranged from him at various times over the years, with Parks' patronizing attitude.  I'm a Van Dyke fan, too.  I've seen his show and have a couple of his CD's.  He's entitled to his opinion, but it's not very nice to Brian himself, let alone Mike or the other band members.  If Van Dyke thinks he's poor and is jealous of the Beach Boys' money and success,  he should think about David Marks.  At least one guy is benefitting from it who doesn't already have a lot of money.

It's amazing how the wheels of fandom have turned. These days, it seems pretty passe in some circles to in any way implicate Mike in the creative stallout of the Beach Boys, and why can't Van just *get over it*, right? Except that, as others in this thread have pointed out far more eloquently than myself, Mike made a subtle point of connecting his distaste for VDP's lyrics with drug use and the effects of said abuse on the band's future.. get it? This was in the official SMiLE booklet. VDP, nonetheless, kept quiet about it until the endless questioning in person and speculation on the internet reached a point of ridiculousness. So, he responds with characteristic wit and a little fire in his belly on a little corner of his website, so what??? The little guy is entitled to his opinion outside the confines of Beach Boys Inc., and I for one am happy to hear it. Might he be a little bitter? Well, hell yeah! It must still be kinda tough to read all the accolades for a musical project released in 2012 that the authors had every intention to release back in 1966.... and to witness the, now perfectly safe realignment of the other Beach Boys post BWPS regarding this work... HELL, YEAH, it was a realignment. Mike, Bruce and Al are all to a certain extent covering their asses and singing a different tune now that they know music history is on the side of SMiLE, largely thanks to BW and VDP's completion of the work in 2003. Back in the day, Dennis was the only other BB who stood by SMiLE from beginning to end; ask anyone who was there. VDP was a personal witness to all this and more. Cut the guy some slack, OK?

BTW, I like Mike Love and I love TM; I practice it every day and swear by it; the results really are incredible. A mindless VDPite I am not.  :hat

You are so very right.

It's Brian Wilson who was the heroic one in the "Smile" story, not Van Dyke Parks.  For an intellectual, Van Dyke has a poor understanding of mental illness.  It's like he doesn't even think or care about the hell Brian went through all those years. None of which was caused by Mike Love, by the way.  It just happened.  But Van Dyke has said things in interviews such as Brian "just needs his ass kicked."  He also enabled Brian by taking him out on the LA party scene back when Van Dyke was young and going though his own thing, and he should be grateful both of them cleaned up and are still thriving.   I respect the fine work he's done outside of the Beach Boys, as well as the work he did with them and with Brian, but that's all.  He should realize that the situation has moved on and he should be cheering his buddy Brian on, not putting him down for reuniting with the Beach Boys or having "handlers." I'm sure Brian would have a difficult time without some handlers, given his condition.

Love the shouting. Keep it up, it really makes your points so much more ... red?

If you don't understand why I wrote what I did, perhaps you should take a moment to re-read. The points are perfectly clear.

You don't like Van Dyke's attitude. I was attempting to describe why such an attitude might arise after dealing with a show that libeled him in front of a national TV audience. The show was a direct, personal insult from Mike to Van Dyke. You may not believe it to be so, but it was certainly interpreted as such by many at the time (including, most importantly, Van Dyke).

(A word to the wise, by the way. I doubt the wisdom of a post with flaming red highlights about how your personal feelings on Van Dyke don't affect your writing. The, um, flaming red highlights cast a soupçon of doubt upon that point.)

He hates the red color. We must change it! >:D

I changed the shade to a calmer red.  ;D I wasn't yelling but making a point. I thought yelling is caps! Anyhow don't lose sleep.

wow.

I believe some of the people who were there during the SMiLE period feel Mike Love was representative of what caused Brian to withdraw and scrap the album.  I don't think most of these folks will say so publicly, but privately they will.  I believe Mike was seen as a sort of 'party crasher' or 'narc' and was not into the scene at all. 

Let's keep in mind we as fans don't really know what really happened, and Brian and Mike obviously have a very strong (musical and familial) bond.  I wouldn't discount the influence of Mike's opinion on Brian.  Brian disassociated himself with most people from the SMiLE scene within a few months.

Van Dyke Parks has more right than any of us to comment on the Beach Boys' reunion.  And his statement was not particularly negative, but more observational.

This thread sounds just like Gorilla vs Bear (or my dad could beat up your dad)


VDP doesn't get along with ML. We shouldn't be surprised, lot's of people don't get along with him. Couple of years later they share the stage with him again. People change for lot's of reasons.


I met VDP once and he was wonderful. My dad (who could beat up your dad...) ran into him in a Belgian restaurant the day after a concert and said 'Mr. Parks, I dont want to bother you, but I was really delighted that you played ....[song title I forgot]  last night, thanks'. 15 minutes later a glass of wine is served at my fathers table with VDP's card. So, free wine and a bussiness card from one of your heroes. That's very friendly, if you ask me.

Doesn't sound like a guy 'who is all about the money'. His bitterness about TSS or BB Celebration could very well be about money, though. But I have a feeling it's more driven by the same old SMILE-questions over the years.

It's not just Smile, it's also that VDP helped the Beach Boys get a deal with Warner, helped them out with Sail on Sailor, helped them out on Kokomo and helped Mike Love get a plain ticket. VDP has been very vocal that Mike Love screwed him over in almost all those cases. But as we all know, you could look at the Smile Saga for instance from Mike's point of view and understand his actions. Lately, there has been a rehabilitation of Mike on this board and that's great.
 
On the other hand, if that anecdote about the plain ticket is true, then Mike Love is truly an asshole.

what's the "plain ticket" anecdote? I didn't read every page in this thread because the arguing makes my brain melt.

I am a fan of both VDP and Mike Love, and after seeing your sexist comments, and now the questions you've posed and oh-so-daringly answered yourself, I am finally through reading anything you write. Long-overdue.

However, Wirestone and MBE, I am enjoying your back-and-forth. I am learning lots of new information. MBE, I can understand why you feel personally slighted by VDP, and perhaps he took what you said in the interview a little too personally. I don't think Wirestone is trying to attack you personally, though. It seems like a fairly civil exchange of views, in spite of the passions running high.

E-mailing VDP directly was the best thing you could have done at this point, and I applaud you for it.

I suppose the answer to VDP not being involved with the Smile Sessions is "all of the above" - he said all he felt he could say on the subject in the past, and is not a huge fan of Mike Love. This begs the question, though: why did he play on Summer in Paradise, with no BDW involvement?

Also, we all know Brian has a long history of having others run interference for him. For instance, the "special chicken salad sandwich" break during the OCA sessions seems to be something Brian wanted. Why does VDP never blame Brian directly for his actions? He seems to blame Brian's handlers and others, but not Brian himself. Clearly he knows BW much better than I ever will, but from what I know of Brian, it still seems a bit odd.

Here it is, via Luther, via VDP's website, circa 2005. It also answers my questions about VDP playing on Kokomo and Summer in Paradise... Luther's words:

Here is the cost-sharing-flight story, discussed in this thread mostly from recollections, as told in the April 6, 2000, issue of the New York Times (copied and pasted from vandykeparks.com). I figured it's worth having on the record.
..............

"Many years later, when [producer] Terry Melcher wanted to take the song 'Kokomo' to the tropical islands, he called me and wanted to use my Rolodex, so to speak. So, I brought some great   musician friends -- people who'd played with Sinatra, Fitzgerald, Cecil Taylor -- to play with me on that session. I was paid well for my work, although it was a nonunion session -- no hospitalization, no dental, nothing extra if it went   commercial. The Beach Boys, after all, were Republicans -- unions weren't something to mention to them. We weren't dealing with Studs Terkel. We were dealing with Bruce Johnston and Mike Love, who'd become the entity known as the Beach Boys. Of course, the song went to number one, and Mike Love always made a very big deal out of the fact that it was made without Brian Wilson. And that was always very alarming to me because beyond the Beach Boys' beautiful music, my allegiance has always been to Brian Wilson, who hired me years ago and told me he'd give me 50 percent of anything we wrote together. He said that speaking from his throne at a time when I was nobody. Isn't that the sign of a marvelous person?"

Parks recalls he saw Love one final time when Melcher called him to Monterey to play synthesizer on the Beach Boys' final album, recorded without Brian, 1992's dreadful Summer in Paradise. A neighbor offered to fly the musician to Monterey in his one-engine plane if Parks agreed to cover gas and other expenses. When he got there, Love was meditating in Melcher's living room. "For the first time in 30 years, he was able to ask me directly, once again, 'What do those lyrics -- Over and over the crow flies, uncover the cornfield -- mean?'" Parks said about that meeting in '95. "And I was  able to tell him, once again, 'I don't know.' I have no idea what those words mean. I was perhaps thinking of Van Gogh's wheat field or an idealized agrarian environment. Maybe I meant nothing, but I was trying to follow Brian Wilson's vision at that time." Parks says Love asked if he could fly back to L.A. in the plane with him. "We had a nice chat and he insisted that he wanted to split the cost of the flight with me, so he gave me a card with his number on it. The next morning, I called to discover it was a disconnected number. And that was the last time I saw Mike Love."

hahahahaha that's amazing.

Are you saying you think Mike created that TV movie?

Yeah that was a very jerky thing on Mike's part, but to be pissed for two decades about it? I would have called BRI if the number was disconnected and made the sucker give! Anyhow I do know Mike praised him highly in his 1992 Goldmine interview. In fact Mike was nicer about him than his bandmates.

I hope Wirestone understands that I am not attacking him, but I just thought that maybe if I explained myself we could reach a resolution of sorts. To agree happily to disagree. I tried with a little humor on my last post. It was meant in fun just so you all know. You can't hear my inflection on a message board, but I just have an offball sense of humor that surfaces when I am not sure how to respond. Again I really hope he understands my POV, I do his. I don't agree with it but that's not important I do respect it.

I still don't understand why people are so upset over a movie of the week that has rarely been seen since. It's not on DVD and its airing on cable once in a while really doesn't make much impact. I don't know anyone who takes TV movies purely on face value. Honestly the caracrture of him seems to have been the producers attempt at comedy, and I don't think anyone was hurt by it in the long run. People who belive such nonsense aren't the ones who are going to buy his work anyhow. It has passed into history and Van Dyke Parks has always received  his due critical alclaim.

Actually I think he's been writen about more kindly than almost any other songwriter I know of. I may not like his tatics against Mike, and yes I think they are worse than what Mike ever did to him,  but I hope now he knows my interview was just trying to make sense of the 46 six year "Smile" conflict.  Again as far as "Smile" and "Holland" goes I love his work. Red letters or not I didn't change my opinions on his work over the last dozen years. Hell I like it more now and if anything that is what's reflected.

Mike can say whatever he likes about any given writer or song. The bottom line is that he did what he was told to do and it shouldn't matter. I mean what group likes every song that even the lead member brings in? After all Mike has always liked the music and vocal arrangements. Why would his objection over one line in a song make Brian freak out? I really doubt the (in truth minor) conflict would be remembered much today had the LP come out. People around then may or may not like Mike, but nobody in their right minds would say Mike had near the power of Brian (let alone Carl or even the pre Manson Dennis) had in the sixties. The Wilsons ran that group and Mike was simply one voice of four in business and one voice in six in the studio. He did great work as a writer, singer and MC, but it wasn't his band then.

The one thing that we should remember is that Brian himself went on to praise the post "Smile" period as one where the group got along and worked together well. Keep in mind that during Stephen Desper's original tenure everyone stopped anything and everything when Brian wanted to work. This changed when he came back in 1979, but through 1971 Brian was easily the most powerful and respected member of the band.  I think it does Brian a great diservice to give so much power to Mike. Past is past and it's time to let go Van Dyke is just not doing himself any favors and I have said that for twelve years..

Bottom line they made great music that made us happy, If they do a little more together it's not a bad thing, Even if the record and tour turns out to be a dud we will finally have closure and maybe some personal peace. Also  David for one deserves this tour and album as really they all do.
As Ringo said to end his mail rant..peace and (Mike) love, :hat

He was a consultant, but he neither wrote, directed, cast, or edited it. All I know is that he said when it came out he wasn't happy with some of it. Yes some of the Mike bias on night two was silly, but he did freak out and threaten Brian. Also Brian Wilson had to have signed off on it at some point. If he or his people didn't read or know the script that was an error on their end. Brian has problems of course but he can read a script,

Wasn't Brian also a consultant?

From what I remember reading at the time he sure was. Some have said his involvement only was in the few (very inappropriate for the era the movie was about) vocals he cut. He really should have taken a more active role and if he didn't it was a poor move by him and/or his management. Still in the scheme of things that he was played badly in the second part doesn't mean much now. The movie didn't lose anyone any real fans and  the casual viewers were more likely to enjoy the music and buy it if anything. It was a bad blunder but like most of the Beach Boys failures it has been thankfully forgot about. The Beach Boys are legends now and nothing they do wrong or have done wrong is going to change that at this point.

I always read his "got a Volvo out of the deal" quote as positive.

For all we know Brian consulted in the parts to which VDP objects.  Anyways, they both are great and jerks alternately just like the rest of us.

I have to say I am floored, FLOORED by all the praise and good will people are giving Mike Love here, sorry but WTF.

You know part of the reason I like them is that they are so human. They are a very American group, showing both its best and worst qualities in their music and lives-yet their appeal is no less potent elsewhere.  I relate to their story and songs personally and they have improved my life with their music in so many ways. They helped me mature and really realize what's important.  They aren't as directly influential in the way people I know personally have been of course, but their impact on me is almost as strong and that says a lot about the power of their best music.

A rather strong anti-Mike faction still inhabits the youtube discussions. You might want to take a look there.

On the other hand, the anti-Mike / Brianista faction became a minority in the BBs message boards. Took a while.

Older people will remember posts such as this from the Wheeler forum:
"I think Mike should change his name to Mike Greed, because he's so greedy" (*)



The poster's nick was Diamond Head, and he was promptly asked to change his first name to Dick.

Ron is Mike Love himself...

I generally favor Brian, but I respect the whole group and their efforts. I don't hate Mike, I'm just disappointed at the foolish behavior from 1970 to 2005 he showed.

Take the blinders off..unbelievable

Ha didn't VDP come up with the cello hooky part in GV?

Yeah, whilst I think Mike Love is a terrible ass with poor taste in music and baseball caps, this doesn't mean I don't rate his contributions! You can be a fan of the musician and not the man.

I read Mike Love's contribution to the Smile Sessions booklet, but nothing in it struck me as particularly insulting or hostile towards VDP.  Maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention.  Can anybody here quote or paraphrase?

The story at the time of the broadcast was that Brian and his management were shown the first night's edit, but the second night's more inflammatory material was not released until a day or two before broadcast. It was at this point that Brian and his management demanded a disclaimer be added at the beginning of the second part (significantly not present during the first night) that noted that dramatic license had been taken.

I don't know for certain whether Brian's people read a full script or not or understood the implication of the script, but I don't think there is any question that the Brian camp took more offense to the movie's second half. Without even knowing the background on this, that second night disclaimer made me think that something unexpected had gone down.

Brian has had the luxury of being able to control to some extent his public image. At the time, he was still widely perceived to be kind of barely functioning idiot savant and the movie practically reinforced that image and to me even suggested that he had pretty much been like that all his life. The Brian depicted in that movie (in all parts of that movie) could have never actually made the music he was making. Nevertheless, the very concerted effort that has worked in a way to save Brian's image, seemingly much to the chagrin of certain people here, apparently, who lament the image of Brian as a somewhat tortured genius that came in as an alterative the image of him as a brain-dead 60s-era casualty of indulgence. Unfortunately Van Dyke doesn't have the same kind of luxury as Brian to have as much control over his public image as others. Like I said, you expect a man drowning to scream.

I hate it when I when I tell people that I like Brian Wilson and they always say "That weirdo from The Beach Boys who did too many drugs"

This is what I'm talking about, yeah. Things like American Family (though far from just that) have worked to perpetuate that perception.

The whole "Brian is Back"campaign and the weird interviews with Brian was what really got the public to think that. That whole campaign was shameful with pushing a very ill man to perform and make records when he really should have got help in private.

I don't like image of Brian the drug wasted burnout. I defend him very strongly over the four or five years after "Smile". Yet I would have to be blind to not see Brian changed after Murry's death for good and also to not understand that he didn't always make the right choices. Neither "Brian is really back this time" or "Brian is crazy" does him any good. Both of these things have been beaten to death by The Beach Boys, by Landy, by Melinda, and, let's be real here, by Brian himself. Why they don't tell us that the real story is in the middle is baffling. Brian did indeed improve greatly from his darkest days, but he's never totally come back either. Humanize the guy, he is actually really nice and funny when he is relaxed. Still don't deny that he has incurred some damage he won't recover from. I've said this repeatedly but for some it has never hit home, even as early as Al rejoining in 1963 Briansuffered from mental issues. Drugs, Smile, The Beach Boys, weren't the main issues though at times all of these things added a lot of strain. He has a genetic mental illness that affected his dad and grandfather and his uncle Johnny. Mike also had a break down-why does that get brushed over? Read Tim White's book for their family history it remains an essential read and it was that book that helped humanize Mike for me and I suspect for others too. That all said Brian has done many people well by talking about his problems and I commend him for doing the sensitive and excellently presented interview a few years back for Ability magazine.

Still I just think that his image since 1976 has never been handled too well the majority of the time. He ( or Van Dyke for that matter) never needed to put down the Beach Boys to make himself look good. Everyone knows he's good. I strongly think he has been encouraged to separate himself since he first went solo until now. You won't find one bad comment on the guys from Brian until 1988 or so. Yes they weren't getting along at the the time but why cut your own throat? I mean to let Landy put out a book like that just opens you up for lawsuits. Maybe he wasn't in the position to say no, maybe he hasn't said no by himself for decades? The point is that the book has done more damage to him personally than the movie or anything else. The info has been repeated over and over by careless writers or fans. That despite Tim White exposing it as a total fraud when it came out in the hardly low profile Bilboard Magazine. The book makes all involved look bad Brian included and frankly only things that have appeared elsewhere BEFORE it came out are even half correct.

Nothing but the music matters in the long run and instead of hype, anything Brian has done or will do should be allowed to rise and fall on its own merits. Releasing albums he had little to do with (GIOMH) or that attempt to feebly compete with the Beach Boys (Disney) is not the way to go. Even giving him more credit than he deserves in publicity (OCA, BWPS, TLOS) makes him look bad. That his best solo work has been in collaboration with some very talented people shouldn't be something to shy away from. Those seeing the show or reading the notes on the albums realize that he has help, but to release BS DVDs like "Brian Wilson on Tour" or "Beautiful Dreamer" just do a disservice to him. This despite them both having moments of fascination. The truth hurts everyone far less than myth. There are NO complete Heroes nor Villians in the Beach Boys saga. I think a middle ground needs to be taken and people like Stebbins and Doe do a lot to end the myths and bring some reality into the mix. I commend them; even before I read their work I wanted to do the same.  

I am glad Brian is doing this Beach Boys tour and album just so he can let go of the bad times and remember the good. This goes for all of them. Why anyone would deny them the chance to end things on a better note is beyond me. I probably haven't been quite this outspoken before, but I was dragged into the BS against my will and want to make all my views very clear. Nothing I or anyone else says should upset these people. They made their mark and nobody is trying to negate that. My view on "Smile" was and is to treat it like any other period and cut through the legends around it. That's all I have ever done or tried to do. Getting a book out is hard work and I hope it will come out and stand for itself. Until I get a deal on it though why would  Van Dyke single out a little guy like me who is just trying to share his love of the Beach Boys and do every member justice.  Am I not allowed to share my view as a long time observer and fan on how Van Dyke comes off when he talks about The Beach Boys. If he makes strong public pronouncements he has to know that some people aren't going to agree with what he says. I know this myself but he is Van Dyke Parks and I am Mike Eder. He will go down in history and I won't  He has a right to not like what I said, but what I said in the interview was mild and is backed up by dates and facts.  What do I have to do with Brian getting back together with The Beach Boys?

One last time I have only expressed my reservations about how he comes off in interviews on here. A place where we should all feel free to be honest. That's what his generation stood for isn't it?  I know big wigs read the board but I have been fair in that I always am open to hearing from him or anyone else that wants to give his side of an issue I bring up, People around the Beach Boys have loose lips but I never have revealed anything private that I feel isn't for public consumption and I never will. Yet we all should and can feel free to weigh in on anything made public by the band or the people around them.

I remember that was the story at the time and I'm a little sceptical but I don't know different. Just my impression that things were nenver as warm and fuzzy between Brian and Van Dyke as we like to imagine. Brian could still advise on and approve the whole script and then turn around and bitch to change after somebody gets their undies in a bunch and makes a stink. Somehow the stories always exonerate Brian and leave somebody else holding the blame. Maybe it's just me but shouldn't the crap be squarely heaped on the writer and director instead of two advisers who were both insulted by the writing and directing? Do we really think Brian and Mike advised the writer and director to make them look like a stoner mentally handicapped person and a wife-beating p*ssy?

Maybe there's a reason for that that's not some made-up conspiracy in which Brian is made to look great and Mike is made to look villainous.


Well, TV, particularly bad TV, is more often than not a product of very severe meddling from producers. There is very little creative freedom for TV writers and directors.


Oh, come on. Mike came off as bloody heroic in that thing -- just flawed enough by Hollywood standards to make it seem believable.

Ok, throw some blame on the producers too. The rest we will just disagree on.

Heroic? The "Good Vibrations" scene. and the fight with Dennis makes him look better than he was. or more important, but is a bad husband and a violent tempered band mate really a hero? Not to mention hey made him look completely insane in the scene with his dad. Again Mike said even back in 2000 that he was NOT happy with parts of the movie. I think Mike's notes on "Smile" in the box are very different to the viewpoint of the director or writer. He's has never changed his story since he was first confronted on it. Hate him or not he's not ever made the "Smile" sessions seem like they came off in the movie.

I'm not sure that disclaimer for Part 2 of "American Family" was on the first broadcast or the rerun.  The disclaimer was at the request of Van Dyke, not Brian Wilson.  I remember reading a story about the movie when it was first broadcast that described Brian's wife being on the set of the movie and not happy with the scenes that were being shot for Part 2.  But she didn't do anything about it.  She also had script approval, so I'm not sure why anyone would sign off on a script that wasn't even completed.  As pointed out, Mike was portrayed badly in that movie, as well.  They probably believed any publicity was good publicity.  Van Dyke's problem may have been that he was made into a composite character.  In some bio-pics, they will take two or three people in the main character's life and make them into one supporting character.  Van Dyke's character seemed to represent multiple people who were around during that time.  It saves on story development/screen time to do it that way, but I can see how he might have been upset. 

Like I said, just flawed enough to make his heroism believable. His flaws are though are barely the ones attributed to Dennis and Brian and we are meant to feel sympathatic about his exclusion from the creative process (i.e. not being asked by Brian anymore to write lyrics) which is shown to be an unjustfied and illegitimate action by a man who was not only a barely functioning idiot savant but also a tyrant to boot!

Not really defending VDP's remarks here, but the vitriol gives the impression Van has been hitting the LA Times, TMZ, EW, Rolling Stone, Billboard and Spin screaming his little mustache off, in that event I could understand a big pushback.  But this all seems disproportionate to what he actually did: make a few intemperate wisecracks on his own website, full stop.  I think he'd rather be promoting his new subscription series of 45's.

So the new P.C. here - as more than a few posters have done - is to bring the hate on that fey, pussified smart-type innerlecshul guy.  Typical of us Americans, I guess.

No one wants to take me up on my bet that Van does a lyric for the new BB LP before they finish?  Or stops in and plays the accordion?

Exactly. I would love to say that this conversation has been free of the kind of homophobic idiocy that distinguishes so many U.S.-based fandoms, but I guess I can't say that anymore. How many people in this thread are straight white guys? Mm-hm. Thought so.

And yeah, I know Van Dyke is straight. That doesn't have anything to do with how he's treated, and what the motivations of that treatment are. Which is that he's not macho, he's smart, and he's ... different. And so he is bullied by the posters here. Can't have anyone unusual or different polluting those all-American Beach Boys. After all, they're America's band. Ain't nothing so American as loving those girls. Get it? Girls. Mike has been married how many times? God, what a stud! Wish I could have been married that many times!

Hey, let's joke about how much "action" Mike is going to get now that the reunion is rolling along. Hey, we love chicks and cheerleaders! Am I right, guys?

Yes, Brian was also a consultant.

You aren't the only one - to suggest Van Dyke's ill feelings towards Mike have to do with money is laughable - anyone remember on the Heroes sessions "bring Mike a bag of money?"  Mike's motivation has ALWAYS involved money - not exclusively, but if any Beach Boys member or collaborator could be pegged as being about the money, it sure as hell isn't Van Dyke Parks.

I happen to think he looked good in his twenties. He's not gay at all.

Don't worry. I hate him too. The man's a bully. Least favourite Mike moment? Despite all the terrible things he's done, for me it's that clip in Endless Harmony when he says of the BB's car songs 'they had wheels on', and then mimes wheels spinning and laughs. Dreadful. Even worse than the moment when he says 'I'm Mr Positive', pulling an expression as if he's the least positive human being on the planet.

Seriously though, he's given us some good songs (Big Sur is a big fave) and some great lyrics of course, but as a person, to me he seems very dislikeable indeed.

HELL YEA WE LUV US SUM CHEERLEEDERS, PUSSIES LIKE VAN DYKE PARKS DONT LIKE CHEERLEADERZ BUT MIKELOVE LOVES HIM SOME CHEERLEEDERC. MIKELOVE IS A REEELMAN IN MY BOOK AND THATS ALRIGHT WIF ME IN MY BOOK LOL WHY DONT VAN DYKE PARKS STOP BEING QUEER AND START BEING A REELMAN LIKE MIKELOVE, MAYBE HE SHOULD GET HIM A PICKUPTRUCK AND GO TO SOME NASCAR EVENTS, THEN HE WOULD BE ALRIGHT IN MY BOOK! MY BOOK IS THE GUNS N' AMMO N' REELMEN BOOK N CASE U WANT TO TAKE IT OUT AT THE LIBARY. NO JK LIBARIES ARE FOR PUSSIES! LOLL!

IN MY BOOK THE BEACH BOYS ARE ALRIGHT BY ME AS LONG AS THEY DONT BOTHER WITH ARTISTIC CRAP LIKE SMILE OR PETSOUNDS, I WANT THE FUNNSUN SONGS BECUZ I AM A REELMAN WITH NO INSECURITIES ABOUT MY OWN MASCULINITY, THATZ WHY I SPEND ALL MY TIME BROWBEATING OTHERS ON A BEACHBOYS BOARD. GODFAMILYCOUNTRY! GUNS! ECONOMIC INEQUALITY JK LOLL

stars and stripes vol. 1 combines my two loves, BBs and Toby Keith. :p

+1

No doubt Ron will hit the bottle later and tell us all that we are on our period or something, and the thread will go on for another few hundred pages. Not that we shouldn't be calling people out on this sort of thing, I'm not saying that. But it's tiresome.

Remember, Mike's buddy John Stamos produced 'American Family'.  Mike bought off on it.

That made me laugh out loud.  Good 'un, Hyperhat!  ;D  Probly true......

And for the record, I'm a straight white guy.  Totally and unequivocally into kitty.

That's our Ron! ;D

The disclaimer was present on the first broadcast of Part 2 (this was the only time I watched AN AMERICAN FAMILY). While Parks may have voiced his disapproval, which may have contributed to the demand for the disclaimer (if, in fact, Parks had seen the film prior to broadcast or read the script), it was definitely reported on that Brian (via Melinda) was very unhappy with how his character was portrayed, especially in relation to the character of Dennis. The result, as reported, was the addition of the disclaimer. Subsequently, Parks demanded that the name of his character be changed or he would sue. This is how the character of "Van" (as he was referred to in the initial broadcast) became "Tommy".

There was a disclaimer on the original broadcasts of both Parts 1 and 2 of "The BBs - An American Family".  The disclaimers appeared on screen with a simultaneous voice over. 

The Part 1 disclaimer (2-27-00): "The following dramatization of events in the lives of The Beach Boys is based on published accounts and personal interviews."

The Part 2 disclaimer (2-28-00) appeared in much larger lettering:  "The following film is a dramatization based on the early years of The Beach Boys.  Some of the scenes may have been fictionalized for dramatic purposes."

Subsequent screenings of the film have used the stronger Part 2 disclaimer for both Parts 1 and 2.

I dunno why you guys are all gushing steam over some stupid TV movie! They all suck! Rock bios! Even the good ones (Buddy Holly Story) ring so false as to come off as insults no matter how good the intentions.

The VDP American Family debacle can be taken both ways and both points are valid. But what are you gonna do? It was a piece of merda that will likely never see the light of day again other than in Stamos' basement perhaps.

I think Mike Eder and Ron (Mike Love himself or not) are inching us toward the truth here, like it or not.

This story sucks because EVERYONE is essentially right. VDP's position is understandable: but, look, The Beach Boys were not/are not his band. Mike is a founding member and part of the family business, so if he had more say, sway, power than VDP, tough merda! VDP and Brian's new "druggie" friends certainly might have inspired Brian's creativity (not that it needed any: the guy was on fire) but their other influences were obviously not very positive or healthy to Brian, so Mike perhaps looking at them as dangerous interlopers and threats to Brian's health, sanity, security (yes, his own AND The Beach Boys') was not out of line. We all know the toll drugs took on Brian in the years to come. Do people actually think it's all because Smile never came out? That's a silly position to take even if it could be partially (at the most) true..... But timing is everything and if the earth had shifted ever so slightly, Brian could have finished Smile and Mike could have chased out all the druggies and everyone would have lived happily ever after. But we're talking about complicated emotions and situations here and it really doesn't seem like anyone did what we: sitting here 40+ years of hindsight down the line: would consider right.

VDP can complain about Mike and Smile for the rest of his days. It's pathetic but he's free to do it. But when he uses the fact that Brian's touring/recording with his family and friends as an excuse to go on a tirade about........ Smile: it really is none of his business, out of line, and he should really just shut up and maybe remind himself that Brian DID finish Smile with his full participation, Capitol DID release official product: and yes, he was credited for the songs he wrote lyrics (of debatable quality) for that were previously released, and that he has an entire contingent of "Beach Boys fans" on his side who consider Mike Love satan himself.

I can't help watching VDP tearing up during his stranding ovation at the Smile performance on the Beautiful Dreamer doc and thinking, how awesome a moment it is, but also how someone like David Marks is just as deserving of such a moment, but will likely never see one. And how David Marks is also a true human being who has seen all sides of the Beach Boys, good and bad and who has retained his dignity in every way.

I'm so fucking offended by this post I can't even think straight.  I'm going to respond once I have a chance to calm down.

Maybe.

Can anyone say TOUGH CROWD????

Sheesh!

Calm down. VDP has been criticized for his recent opinions and their tone; and for his 40-year-old tirade against Mike Love and the Beach Boys. And that's about it.

I, for one, like everything about VDP aside from his 40 year old tirade. I dig his style, the way he dresses, he has a great speaking voice, I love his solo work. "Song Cycle" and "Clang Of The Yankee Reaper" I can play over and over again until my neighbors cut-off my electricity.  OCA is great too. Funnily enough, his lyrics for the Smile album are amongst my least favorite things he's done. Maybe that fact keeps me from giving two many s*ts about what happened with Smile. But either way, I dig the guy but am just sick of hearing him bitch about Mike and Smile.

Same here.

Wonderful post.

I know it's not really helpful, but I took that as calling out a very few select viewpoints on here and certainly not everybody who posts. Should probably not butt in any more than is necessary, but that's how I interpreted it.

Just wait until Ron logs in tonight after drinking too much...

I sure hope that was the case, because if it wasn't...

It just seems funny to me that people would be consultants but not be given a script until after production and post-production and not until just/day before the airing when it was too late to consult. And then given a script for half and not the other. Something is just wrong with that story, just sounds like fan invented baloney.

Tripled quoted for accuracy. Make a post about Brian being gay and see what happens.

Van Dyke isn't gay.  Brian Wilson isn't macho.  Al Jardine isn't macho. 

Brian Wilson, and Al Jardine, act like men, however.  Van Dyke? Notsomuch. 

You don't have to be 'macho' to be a man. 

No - before the second part on the first showing.


The disclaimer was at the request of Brian's management. The renaming of the VDP character was at the request of VDP and his legal team.


No, she didn't. Fact. The article you read was wrong.


The VDP character used well-known quotes from Van Dyke (and no-one else), spoken in his idiosyncratic style.

Maybe. Maybe not. The facts will emerge in due course.

how does a man act, in your opinion, compared to a woman?

So just to clear things up, if anyone here were to be represented by an actor in a television documentary and portrayed as a complete moron, you'd all just shrug and be happy with that? It's easy to say VDP should be more 'macho' re these type of things we've been discussing, but imagine if the shoe was on the other foot (namely your own)...

There's seems to be an agreement here that Van Dyke's recent attack was a result of the TV series. That's not the case. He's been saying things like that for decades. Perhaps more recent issues fueled his rant, but he's singing pretty much e same song.

The article was in the LA Weekly.  I read it back when, so my memory may be faulty.  But it described both Melinda and Brian being on the set of the movie and Brian getting upset and leaving, and Melinda having some heated words with the producer or director.  Since movies are planned in advance and it would cost a lot of money to change anything at that point, she didn't get her way.  They did sign off on the project, though, along with Mike, so they had to have known it might not be flattering to Brian.  I've never been sure why Brian and his team have been keen for years to have a biopic made about him, since a lot of things known about him aren't flattering.  I also haven't seen the TV miniseries since it first came out.  It struck me that Brian's entourage from the Smle period was condensed to far fewer people.  It could be the Loren Schwartz character I'm thinking of.

Does anyone else remember the night it premiered, a news channel in LA had a featured story with Mike and a bunch of other old bald guys having a viewing party at his house?

I remember they showed Mike watching it kinda shaking his head and he was generally dismissive of it when they talked to him.

Am I imagining this?

More dickish.

Doesn't VDP just have an overall low opinion of Mike that affects his perception of all things Mike is involved in? I mean, certainly there are "little" incidents that have added up over the years. Mike questioning the "over and over" line wasn't a huge offense in itself. But then there was that story about VDP needing to be reimbursed and Mike giving him a phone number that was no longer in service. Then there was the TV movie. Then there were the comments about druggies. These things add up to "I don't like that Mike Love guy. He has been a jerk numerous times, so I don't like him." So now the BBs are reuniting, and maybe VDP just can't see why it might be a positive experience.

The reimbursment story happened in 1991-2. VDP's rant was over 20 years old by then.

Van Dyke considered himself a contracted employee of Brian's for Smile. His loyalty was to Brian. Mike was upset because Brian promised before Pet Sounds that he would write the album after Pet Sounds with Mike. Brian decided to write with Van instead. Mike felt Brian had not kept his promise. I think the whole Van/Mike argument is a straw man issue....Mike's beef was with Brian. Brian knew he had broken his commitment. It is no coincidence that the first single after Heroes was a BW/ML composition, Gettin' Hungry...issued under the name Brian Wilson and Mike Love. It is also no coincidence that nearly all the tunes on Wild Honey are Brian Wilson/ Mike Love songs. Brian felt he had to make his promise good to Mike.

Thanks for this perspective.  I think this story tells us a lot about the roots of Mike's unhappiness with the Smile project.  When I look at it from his perspective--coming back from a successful tour of England to hear these bizarre, fragmentary snippets that would be difficult to replicate on stage--it's not at all surprising that Mike wasn't pleased.  I also wonder if some of VDP's animosity towards Mike is misdirected disappointment with Brian for not sticking up for him more.

Thank you from me too, Peter. Yours is a simple and highly credible perspective.

can someone fill me in on exactly how long that 1966 tour last, and the dates? I'm just interested in what exactly might have occurred in brian-vanland while mike and the boys were off on their successful tour--what exactly did they come back to find?

Gigs & sessions 1966 (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs66.html)

That typically VDP turn of phrase about Mammon started looping in my head, and before you knew it:

http://youtu.be/6oHJY3HQalQ

I kid because I love!

(Ps. Hi, folks!)

On the subject of Brian and Mike writing together (and if we can discuss this without the threat of legal action), aside from Wouldn't It Be Nice (when he was supposedly ringing Brian up from Japan or somewhere secretly suggesting lines over the phone) which other BB songs have dubious court-ordered Mike Love writing credits (i.e. ones where it's questionable whether he was actually involved)?

I think Mike told the truth as he remembered it regarding the songwriting issue. The one aspect to be discussed is if coming up with a hook or a phrase is enough for getting songwriting credit. And after that, how's it gonna be split.

We don't know how credits are split. But we do know, for instance, that Carl received songwriting credit for coming up with the guitar riff to Dance Dance Dance. In the same vein, Mike feels entitled to songwriting credit for having come up with the "she's real fine" and the "giddy up" in 409; he also fought for credit on Help Me Rhonda, having come up with the first line. Or the tag line in WIBN. The matter of discussion (and it has been thoroughly discussed here and elsewhere), is just how much and what type of input will be credit-worthy.

If you ask me, I'll say two things:

1. To each his own
2. Brian was screwed by his lawyers, refusing an out-court-agreement for 750.000 and making him go to court instead

We can debate what credit was due but none of us heard the evidence so it is all speculation. Mike didn't ask for any amount of credit, only credit where the jury heard the evidence and decided credit was due. Except that he did try to award himself a very low ball credit with that settlement. The amount of credit was determined by the jury. I guess we should argue with the jury.

The real mistake was putting Brian on he stand, he lost the case for himself.

Well, Mike was proven right. The real mistake was denying him credit for his contributions.
But Brian's lawyers strategy was misled, that's also right.

I'm really curious why Gettin' Hungry was released as by "Brian Wilson and Mike Love", as opposed to "The Beach Boys".  Getting Hungry was on the Smiley Smile album by "The Beach Boys" and the Gettin' Hungry single was released at basically the same time as the album.  Gettin' Hungry's  flip side, also by "Brian Wilson and Mike Love" was Devoted to You, which had appeared on the Party album as by "The Beach Boys". 

Is it known who made the decision to release the single as being by "Brian Wilson and Mike Love," why was it made, and what the band members, including Brian and Mike themselves, thought of this decision?  (Yes, Caroline No was released as by "Brian Wilson," but it was released within two weeks of Sloop John B./You're So Good to Me, and protocol was such that you couldn't release two singles by the same artist at the same time, plus Caroline No saw release a little over two months prior to the release of Pet Sounds.)

I never heard any airplay for the single and in fact was unaware of it's existence until I saw it in a used record store the following spring, and from that day about 44 years years ago I've been curious as to the motive behind releasing the single as being by Brian and Mike, rather than by The Beach Boys.

Peter, are you suggesting that Getting' Hungry was released as by "Brian Wilson and Mike Love" to placate Mike, and that Mike would have preferred this designation as opposed to "The Beach Boys"?

In my opinion, Brian wasn't into placating the Boys. He did what he did in his velvet steamroller way and they could [and did] deal with it.

Brian had said in an interview the year before, around the release of Caroline No, that the group [he as producer?] planned to release an occasional group song under the name of a group member. Maybe showcasing the team that wrote their most recent monster number one hit [before their most recent number 12 hit by another team] seemed like a good idea for their new record label?

Brian simply kept a promise he made to his cousin. Obviously, Mike wanted to contribute lyrics...Brian's impulse after Pet Sounds was to have more elaborate lyrics. It was a matter of keeping a promise. Mike felt he wrote more accessible understandable lyrics...as it turned out many groups simplified their lyrics after Sgt. Pepper.. I see Brian realizing he needed to listen more closely to the group...including Mike. That is not patronization, it is listening to family...and first and foremost...The Beach Boys are a family.

Great posts Peter. "Good Vibrations" showed they could still get a good result together. "Wild Honey", parts of "Friends", "Do It Again", and "Sunflower" all are or have great work by Brian and Mike.  Some of their best.

Thanks for the info, Cam!  Any chance you know when and where this interview was published, and if it's available on the web or elsewhere?

The single best (and, possibly, best informed) perspective I've heard on this issue. Gracias, PR.

AGD -- please cough up. What's the VDP/TSS liner notes story? Come on. Enough bridge/water activity already. There's so much profoundly tedious sh!t-slinging going on round here. A dose of fact would do the world of good. Make it so.

Sure. Not sure if it is available on the Web. It was in a Q&A with Brian in "Beach Boys Backchat" in the September 3 1966 issue of Disc and Music Echo:

" Linda Brown: 'Are you going to go solo a lot more and just write songs - or will you continue to sing with the Beach Boys on records?'

Brian Wilson: 'I’m with the Beach Boys all the way. The last solo effort was just a chance happening - we had two tracks with single potential and one was by just me and the other by the entire group.  If this happens again, perhaps with someone else’s solo, we may do the same. But I have no plans to continue a solo career.' ”

I thought Carl was specifically mentioned as a potential solo. Maybe I mis-remembered or there might be another quote out there.

Maybe Brian was honoring some alledged promise [where does the info on that promise come from again?] but my guess is he just wanted what he wanted like always and Mike happened to fit the bill at the time.

Where does that "just this one album" story come from? Is it from Brian's "biography"?