The Smiley Smile Message Board

Considering the original writer of the song and its history...how do we feel about this one?  I feel weird to admit that I really like Dennis' take on it.  The vocals and tightened melody (compared to Manson's original) is unbelievable. 

So how do you feel about it?  Is it a legitimate Beach Boys track?  Do you not enjoy it at all because of its history?  Do you love this song?

I'm just gonna say this right now, Manson himself never killed anyone. Jim Gordon, on the other hand, killed his mother, and he played on Pet Sounds. So if you think "Never Learn Not to Love" can't be listened to because it's a Charles Manson song, well, guess you can't listen to Pet Sounds then either.

Lead Belly also killed someone, and he wrote Cotton Fields.

And The Beach Boys also recorded several songs that were co-written by Phil Spector.

Good points, Aegir and shelter.  I think what bugs me more was that upon listening to "Never Learn Not To Love" I was absolutely floored.  The arrangements and production...spectacular.  When I found out that it wasn't a Wilson original...I was kind of bummed.  Sure they've covered a bunch load of song written by other people but I was just slightly taken aback.  The Manson connection doesn't help matters.

The production/arrangement is what I like about the song. Manson's version isn't as good. The outro is great and there's nothing in Manson's version that even indicates something like that.

I think there is a slight difference between this and the other examples given. The lyrics to Cottonfields and Leadbelly's killing couldn't really be connected. Whereas I guess you could make a connection between Manson's warped mental state and his lyrics.

Personally though I just see it as one of the lesser songs on 20/20, overshadowed by many other cuts from that record.

Great song, great arrangement. Dennis took a rough sketch of a song and turned it into something magical.
BTW the outro on the song uses a chant The Family used to sing around the campfire.

It's alright.  I like some of chuck's other songs like that "All in the mind of a Dreamer" track or whatever it's called. 

Gotta agree here.  Dennis' version is majestic and it just soars right through you.  It's amusing to read comments on YouTube on Manson's original track how some people prefer that over the BB version.  Manson's is basically a blues folk tune while Dennis' is a glorious, orchestral masterpiece that makes you feel lik you're cruising through the sky. 

Good description-There's mystery and a certain intrigue involved with this song that had me captivated well before learning of it's origin. A great vocal from Dennis with a spectacular arrangement and production from Carl and Dennis. I played the daylights outta this track when it came out both at home and on my college radio show. 20/20 could have been a stronger player without Cottonfields, TNFP, and BBOTM with more substitutions coming from Dennis.

I feel like I've sined for praising Manson. Cosined. Tangented. FUM HIM THE MOURDOROUS BASTARD!

Abso-freakin-lutely!

I only have 20/20 on LP and the 1990 twofer CD.  Did they ever update the credits for this and actually officially acknowledge Manson as a co-writer?  The totally coy blurb in the 1990 CD really irks me, because of course they don't come anywhere near mentioning Manson.  

I have no particular love for Manson as a dude but its a bigger blot on the BBs legacy that they sort of backhandedly claimed credit for the song than that they covered it at all.

I know Manson was the original writer on this, but Dennis' tighter take and spectacular arranging and producing on this make it feel more like an interpretation, than a straight up cover. Though, I do understand and agree with your points here.

As for the song itself, I love it. The boys did an incredible job on it. I actually get a "darker" feeling from "Be With Me" than "Never Learn Not To Love," but that's definitely more to do with the atmosphere of the arrangement than the overall tone of the lyrics.

I almost think that the ominous, looming cloud of noise that haunts us in the first 27 seconds of the song was Dennis' subliminal way to say that this song was Manson's.  This creepy hum reminds me exactly of the music found in the "Star-Gate" scene in Kubrick's  2001: A Space Odyssey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou6JNQwPWE0)  except this time instead of traveling at lightyear speed through galaxies--we slowly fade into a long journey deep into the depths of the dark and disturbing center of Manson's mind---where this song came from.  Was this Dennis' way to tell us where this song came from without really saying it?  Maybe...maybe not.  But I think so...

I love the song.  Probably the best track on 20/20 besides the Smile leftovers.

I like it. Doesn't alter my opinion of Manson, however.

I always hear "I'm your kind I'm your kind of Nazi" in the chorus. :o

I think the beach boys version Is on par with Mansons original. He had a great voice and there's some cool electric guitar on his version. I have to admit though, I was listening to never learn not to love In the dark last night and the rumbling In the Intro creeped me out so much I had to turn the light back on. Both great versions, but entirely different..almost beyond comparison for that reason.

As for the fact that It was Charles Mansons song....It's just music and I don't care who's making It, unless the lyrics are designed to subliminally influence you or something.

Wha?  Did you get a copy of Hitler's Greatest Hits for Christmas?

:lol I wish. I'm not condoning the manson murders, and I think he's a terrible man. But the music he made was undeniably good.

Well, that might make sense if the song had been released after the Tate-LaBianca murders & the Mason family's subsequent arrest & trial.  But the 20/20 version of this song (its earlier appearance on a 45 B-side lacked that spine-tingling intro) appeared in February 1969, months before anyone outside of a circle of L.A.-area music biz folks had heard of Manson.

Yeah I thought about that but I believe that Dennis sensed that Manson was a little off....not a guy that was all there; perhaps realizing that this guy was far more darker than anyone he had met. 

If I'm not too mistaken,  I read many years ago that Dennis got credit for the song because he allegedly either gave Manson money or a good deal of recording equipment with the understanding that Dennis would not change the the song or lyrics or both. John Stebbins probably could be more concise.

even though I don't care for Manson I must admit creepy things/people are intreging to me,kind of like Hitler or looking at a car wreck when driving by one or looking at crime scene photos you know it's wrong and you don't agree with them but can't help to just kind of take a sneek peak into them from time to time,maybe it's just a way of trying to understand them without being too obvious.. so yeah the song is interesting to me..I think it has a beautiful arrangement by Dennis and one of my favorites from 20/20..

Liking this song is not akin to condoning cult killings.

What do you expect? Manson is considered by most to be a total monster, and rightly so. I say this as someone can seperate the person from the art, I'll add - I enjoy a few of his songs and find some of the things he's said over the years fairly interesting and insightful, albeit hard to take seriously when wedged between the sexist stuff he said and the stated justification for the things he did.

But srslyz, can you really blame everyone in the Beach Boys camp for wanting to distance themselves as much as they possibly can from him? Can you blame them for not wanting to further taint the legacy of a deceased loved one because of his association with this guy? Be lucky they didn't remove the song from the album and attempt to track down and destroy copies containing it back in the 60s, which is what a lot of other folks would've done. The less said about this in official Beach Boys liner notes, the better.

Regardless, Manson, to me, was very much a "blot" on the Beach Boys' legacy and nothing more. He befriended Dennis, he recorded some stuff with Brian, he wrote a song that Dennis ended up using, and then Dennis got the f*** away, narrowly escaping with his life, upon learning how f***ed up the situation really was. Any finer details pertain more to the Charles Manson story, not the Beach Boys story, and there's plenty in the way of information on him and his story out there. What more needs to be said in regards to he and the Beach Boys?

No, I totally get this, I get why there would be personal squeamishness within the camp and I don't blame anybody for it.  But then, they were happy enough to allow Manson episode some prominence within the American Band movie, which was close to being an "authorized" band biography.  I'm not looking for lurid detail in the 20/20 liner notes, I just think the coy denial of association, when it's so widely known, ends up looking worse than the association itself in the long run. 

Good post, runnersdialzero.


Has the board ever discussed the topic of Dennis taking Manson's song?  Is there much written about what happened from the moment Dennis heard the song "Cease to Exist" to it finally ending up on 20/20 as "Never Learn Not To Love?"  Considering what we know about Dennis, it seems out of character for him to do something like that. 

Are we putting much into the theory that Dennis gladly took off Manson's credit because he wanted to cheat him out of royalties as a way for Manson to pay him back for the ridiculous amount of money Dennis had already spent on Manson and his Family ('the biggest ghonorrhea bill in history")? 

I know Dennis played around, did drugs and was in no way an angel but to take someone one's song as he did--regardless of how much he morphed it into a work of art, completely making the original almost irrelevant----doesn't seem like something he would do--very much below him.  It's not like it was a common trend amongst the Wilson brothers to sneak and cheat collaborators/original writers from their due (Van dyke, Asher etc etc). 

Anyone have any thoughts?

From what I've heard, Manson "gave" Dennis the song because he owed him some debt.

He got pissed when some of his words were changed.

I like the psychedelic feel of it.  The background harmonies are breathless.  Not a bad song.

Manson didn't care about the credit. He had no publishing deal anyway. As has been mentioned he'd already bludged a huge sum of cash out of Dennis, so the song was considered more a gift. He told Dennis to do what he wished with the music but specifically to not change the lyrics which Wilson then promptly did. Charlie got very angry at this and went on a crusade to "get what was owed". What happened next is very murky and unclear but it resulted in Dennis distancing himself from The Family very quickly.

There's an interview with Neil Young somewhere or other in which he states that an awful lot of movie/music/TV types flocked to Manson initially, then denied all knowledge when the sh*t hit the fan.

I love this song. Like a lot of Dennis's songs it sounds like an aural equivalent of sex. Especially the build at the end (closer, closer...) followed by the chant (ecstatic, post-coital afterglow).
I remember reading somewhere that it was a gift from Manson to help heal the band who were having problems at the time (maybe Manson said this) and Manson said Dennis could do whatever he wanted with it except change the words

I like it a lot. I always thought that it's funny that Charlie's version is less spooky.

I love NLNTL! I wish Dennis would`ve kept the original title though. Look At Your Game was pretty good too.

Ah ok cool...good to know that we have a pretty good idea on the circumstances of how the song got to Dennis. 

But in addition to Manson upset about changing the lyrics...wasn't he also demanding the money for the song?  If it was a "gift" or he "gave" the song to Dennis...why would he demand money later? If Dennis hadn't changed the lyrics---would he have overlooked the money issue? 

I suppose adding some logic to the situation doesn't help when you're dealing with a madman such as Manson...

I actually prefer the original Cease to Exist. He was a bad guy, but at the same time, who here could honestly say they wouldn't turn out the same way if they were raised by a prostitute and a dad who was never around. Having said that, I can appreciate his music. I consider it to be a dark Bob Dylan type sound. Had he have stayed out of trouble, he might have made a name for himself in music and not as a villain.

One thing to remember about Manson is there were times in his life when he gave vast sums of money to people without a care, when later people wouldn't do the same for him he got incredibly angry.

During the interview he did with Geraldo, in mid rant, Manson makes a vague reference to going to New York to demand cash for songs the Beach Boys 'took' from him.

Hopefully Manson doesn't break out of Jail to crash the Beach Boys reunion.

What an odd thing to say.

I was just thinking of how Manson lives in the past and still hates the group to the point of pulling a stunt like showing up at one of their shows if he broke out. Tall Brian Wilson could easily knock out out that shrimp anyway. There is no way we would break out of the max security prison he is in anyway.

I've always thought it was a great Beach Boys recording, and a good early progressive rock song.  I'm guessing that Dennis' involvement as an arranger had to be only good for it, but I've never heard Manson's original.  Maybe I should try to find it on YouTube just to have a basis for comparison.

As for music and the character of the music creator, there's a whole lot of music I love that I would not listen to if I based my opinion of the music on my opinion of the person making it...witness anything ever sung by Mike Love, for instance...

Sort of a dirge-y folk song I gues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRObQ3AojC0

Wow, that's fascinating.  What Dennis did was take a really mediocre piece of songwriting and make a production masterpiece out of it.  It's Dennis' genius that made this a great Beach Boys recording.

Brian Wilson is way too passive to punch anybody. Al is as short as Manson.  Bruce would just give a lecture or something. Mike, Dave, Ricky or Blondie would kick his a$$ though. :)

You can't deny that it's a good song- one of the better ones on that album anyway.
The Beach Boys / Dennis Wilson version is miles better than the original though.. a completely different sound.

This is a really difficult question. And it turns up elsewhere. Sales of Michael Jackson dropped off during the child molestation charges. Phil Judd from the original Split Enz was convicted of stalking and that coloured at least his last two solo albums. Funnily enough Phil Spector's conviction hasn't much changed they way i view his records.

In this case, it's quite hard, The Beach Boys interpreted a song and made it quite strong. There was no murder lurking in their minds when they did it. However the original title "Cease to Exist" does have an all too easy link to murder and there are many sign posts of cult in the lyrics "give up your world and come and be with me"... "I'm your kind and I see". So we can recognise the strength of the song but it definitely has some creepy colourings that fit all too neatly with the fact that we know the writer instigated Mass murder.

It must have been a complete bummer for Dennis when he found out what Manson was. As far as credits for the song that doesn't bother me at all, from everything I've read Manson took way more than he gave to Dennis. In the end the song was a very mixed blessing, maybe more of a curse?

Let's go back to the first thing I said in this thread.
But Jim Gordon killing his mother wasn't a media case like Manson was. so no one cares.

brb, burning my copies of Pet Sounds

Are you being serious here? I get it that you like the song, but don't diminish what Manson did because of that. Manson did shoot Bernard Crowe but he didn't kill him, he thought he had. Manson instigated the murder of 7 people, if he hadn't been captured there is no reason to doubt it wouldn't have been more. Further the Beach Boys song fits in thematically with the killings.

With the Pet Sounds example Jim Gordon killed his mother 17 years after playing on Pet Sounds, you would have to be pretty strange to find any links between his playing, the album and the murder. 

alright, this part is where you lost me. Never Learn Not to Love is a little creepy, but it has nothing to do with the killings.

The song was called "Cease to Exist" it's about complete submission and being prepared to die (ceasing to exist) which is what Manson wanted from his followers. They also had a saying along the lines of if you're prepared to die you you should be prepared to kill.

Yeah, but he's talking about Never Learn Not To Love, where the line is 'Cease to RESIST, come say you love me....'

Yes, Dennis made that change and good on him. As i said before I don't think Dennis had any dark intent, but the songwriter did and the words can be seen as those of a cult leader talking to his followers.

Manson was singing about ego death, a common enough subject in 60's counterculture.

I'll say something on Manson. I think he probably is too figuratively if not literally crazy to do a real interview about music that isn't a put on or rambling. Still I bet anything he witnessed some moments with the group that would be of great interest. That said I still have zero respect for the guy and don't think he's "cool" or anything like that. Did he write a few good songs? Yes but that's as far as it goes with me. I still think it's a great Beach Boys record regardless of the background. Also it should be stated again he had NOTHING to do with "Be Still", "All I Want To Do", or "Be With Me".

I thought AGD already confirmed Manson's contribution on "Be With Me" in his Complete Guide (and here on this board)?

Long rumoured at the time AGD first wrote the book, totally discredited since.

I think Never Learn Not To Love is a fantastic song, regardless of its origins.

Very cool...thanks for the update!  Nice to know Manson didn't have a hand on this one..love this track.

NLNTL is an OK song at it's core with AMAZING production and vocals/harmony to boot... besides, it pissed Charlie off that he didn't get any royalties from it so that is a good thing.

Strange thing said by Manson: (by memory) When are you people going to get it through your thick head that I didn't kill anybody? Maybe I didn't kill enough people, maybe that's the problem!

Neither did Hitler...

Great song regardless of the origin. Sounds like it would've been perfect for the times.

Btw, I was just watching the Mike Douglas Show performance from '68... and DAMN it's scary how close Dennis sounds to Brian on that last falsetto "ahh" at 1:51

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0v2bVX8j4