The Smiley Smile Message Board

It is widely known that Carol Kaye claimed credit for many of James Jamerson's Motown bass lines. This was in the 1990s, long after Jamerson was gone, and the record keeping at Motown was shoddy. The company did not give any credit to sidemen back then.

According to most of the evidence, she did not play on the Motown sessions she claimed to play on, but she seemed convinced that she had. "I Was Made to Love Her" is one such tune.

The whole story is here, if you scroll down about halfway. (http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html)

I am wondering if, in the case of "I Was Made to Love Her," she played on the Wild Honey session and misremembered it as the Motown/Stevie Wonder session.

Thoughts? AGD?

too me the bass lines sound similar to both ,in fact that was the first thing that stuck out for me and I heard the BB version before Stevies version..

Nothing I could say about her that you'd want to read. Horrible woman, and a liar to boot.

I don't understand why she has to lie about what she played on, Carol actually has a highly impressive resume of songs she played on.

A horrible woman? What did she do? Distort BBs history? If she did...

Yes, absolutely, she played Jamerson's baseline to a "T."

When I did the Wrecking Crew sessions five years ago, I swear half of the conversation among the old-timers was about Carole Kaye.  And it wasn't touchy-feely nice stuff; they seemed to have some, um, unresolved issues.  Not going to get into what was said, other than to say that claiming improper credit seemed to be one of the big bones of contention.

I've only personally encountered her once, when we were on a bill together, and she was nice enough.  

After my unpleasant experience with the Standells, I can only say that issues that stay unresolved for 40 or 50 years only seem to magnify and warp peoples' perspectives and memories, not to mention their personalities.  What started out as a little white lie or an annoyance can harden into stone over decades.

Not the vast majority of Good Vibrations though, as is commonly assumed! That fact blew my mind not so long ago....

I'll never understand why someone who legit played on some great songs would try to make herself even more famous by lying.

Could it be that she didn't like Jamerson?

It just seems like she hates being questioned by anyone, even when presented with documentation that proves her memory is incorrect.  I don't think she intentionally meant to steal credit from others (nearly all of the incorrect claims she's made are based on half-truths: she played rhythm guitar on a cover of Surfin' USA...but not the original, she played bass on The BB's version of IWMTLH, etc.) but by sticking to her stories she effectively has stolen credit.  The excessive moderation on her website and the ousting of anyone who says otherwise is also pretty unsettling.

I remember when she would post on the Cabin Essence board (if memory serves me correct), every post of hers would include a huge list of sessions that she played on as part of her argument. Never understood why she would post it over and over again. She was quite rude to a few posters there and left when some of us called her on it.

OK, one last time, the cause of my personal beef with Kaye: on the Bloo, back in 2000, someone asked her what Ray Pohlman played an the "GOK" session, and she flatly stated she wasn't there. Which surprised the hell out of several posters as...

1. He's on the AFM contract...
2. Brian refers to him by name on the tapes.

I politely pointed this out, and she threw a fit, said she was there and we weren't, accused me of stealing AFM sheets and wailed that she'd get her pal Russ Wapensky who was writing a book about post-war LA sessions to check his files and prove her right. I pointed out, still politely (yeah, I've changed) that as he would be reading the exact same contract as I was (and quoted the reference #), that would be exceedingly unlikely, whereupon she flounced off to her own board (after sending me some increasingly unpleasant emails - she really typed "hahaha" FFS) and posted this, knowing that as I was barred from her forum, I couldn't reply (comments in italics are mine):

“This purported self-appointed "expert" is actually a real buddy-friend of someone (used car dealer-writer) that Brian Wilson recently sued for stealing/purloining masters [Brad Elliott, who was not a 'close buddy-friend', whatever that is]....this current phony posting on one board or more is posing as an "expert" on the Beach Boys' stuff who lives in England and is a bully to a lot of fans, setting himself up as some sort of "god" to history.... another one of those. Haha, never ceases to amaze me about these types of guys living on their lies and subterfuge of posing as a guru of information that is totally false but is obsessed to pretend to be a vip....this is a bachelor baby-boomer who was in knee-pants when we were recording - lives with his elderly mother who takes care of him etc [low, really low].....I think some are getting wise to this poor guy tho', how badly he needs help.....we've got some like that over here in the USA too, the Internet helps them set up with their pure lies so they can "enchant" the masses for awhile...and it's not good for people like Brian to have these types mislead people either....They are really self-delusional guys who eventually get laughed at -- hard to believe that people actually do fall for their lies tho' for awhile, but that's because not much is known about our studio work...... more books are on the way to the printer soon. And there's a lot of films in the can wending their way on the air....Yes, he just can't stand to be "corrected" -- yet (and most are finding this out too) he makes outlandish claims which are all lies all the time....just a really bad guy imo. And yes he does have a website....this kind of person is harming the fan-club of Brian Wilson's...is the buddy of a person who Brian sued, and little by little he's being found out but does tend to bully whomever on BW and BB sites. Believe me, join the crowd of people who he attacks, I guess the truth is very threatening to him...like another fellow I know (hmmm.....probably more of them out there on the internet too). So easy to fool people on the internet which takes time to ferret out if it's lies or truth...I think he's really on his way out now tho'. Sad case.[Eleven years later, still here]”

Yeah, a nice, charming old lady... unless you point out what she says isn't correct. You just don't do that, because Kaye is ALWAYS 100% right, even when she's claiming credit for playing on a song recorded in a town she admits she's never visited. I could add something to what Adam said about how the Crew regard her... but you can work that out easily enough.

But remember, my 'phony' trade is 'pure lies' and 'outlandish claims'. But at least I don't steal the credit of someone who can no longer defend themselves.  ;D

 

Sounds like you arguing with yourself.

Oh, doctor, my sides, they ache so much - such wit, such humor !  :-D

If anyone has the time to sit through all of these Carol Kaye videos: http://snapshotsfoundation.com/video/interviews

How many incorrect claims are there?

Out of all the people associated with the BBs online and in print, has there ever been a more nakedly honest person than AGD?

Whether you agree with him, or whether he's polite ( :) ) is not the issue. His methods and motives are always transparent with a large basis in fact.

37.833

Oh. I made it 32¾.

Wow, Carol is just plain nasty when the truth is revealed.

:O

Also, ridiculous little letter you've got, there. Always sad to hear someone who was part of something you loved is *that* kind of peron. :(

Wasn't a letter - posted on her own forum, i.e. technically published.

Lovely. :\

I think it was a veiled love letter.

There's no evidence to support her claim that she played on The Beach Boys' version of "I Was Made To Love Her" (yes, she has claimed to play on BOTH the Stevie Wonder original AND The Beach Boys' cover).  She claims The BBs version was cut at Western with her on bass & Hal on drums.  Accoriding to the AFM contract, it was cut at Heider's and no outside musicians were involved.  Not to say the AFM is uncategorically 100% accurate, but if she did play on The BBs version, she wasn't paid, at least not "legally" (through the Union), as she was on many of their sessions from December 1964 to May 1967.

If she "hates" James Jamerson, perhaps she "hates" Ray Pohlman too.  I wonder if she's seen my sessionography from the big SMiLE box yet, where I lay out exactly how many "Good Vibrations" sessions she played on...fact is, she played 12-string electric on the 4/9 Gold Star version (Ray Pohlman played the Fender bass on both the 2/17 and 4/9 sessions), Dano bass on the 5/24 Sunset Sound session (where Carl played Fender bass), and finally Fender bass on the 6/18 Western session.  That's it.  And NONE of those pieces made it to the final master edit.  So she's not on the single.  All of the Fender bass on the final, master single edit was played by Ray Pohlman, except for in the third bridge & chorus fade; the Fender bass
in those sections was played by Arthur Wright (a genuine Motown session alumnus) (EDIT: Lyle Ritz played the Fender bass on the choruses included in the released 45 version).

But I'm no Russ Wapensky, so what do I know (no disrepesct to Mr. Wapensky).  I'm just some guy who listened to every single scrap of "Good Vibrations" and SMiLE session tape still in the vaults, and examined scans of all the corresponding AFM contracts in the Union archives (obtained through completely legal channels, I assure you).

Personally, I prefer to remember Carol Kaye as I heard her on the session tapes from all those years ago:  funny, polite, and one hell of a musician, one who added many colors to Brian's SMiLE palette (acoustic guitar, banjo, 12-string electric, Fender & Dano basses, even the sound of a board dropping).

Question: while Ms.Kaye being on the Beach Boys version is extremely unlikely given the era of the band and the fact that it's been said she's NOT on it, who did play bass on the song? Or who are the likely candidates?

Sure, but given what you know of her, will you be able to?
I know I can't: and I know a lot less than you, AGD and many others that have studied this in-depth

Bruce or Alan, I'm guessing.

Well, nobody ever said that the musicians who created the music we love so much were saints.  We pour over the details of their personal lives on sites like this and sometimes it can be disillusioning (I can think of a few anecdotes about BW that I would rather forget!), but in the end, all that really matters is their music.  This is certainly not to excuse CK's distortions and vicious attacks, but I still enjoy what she brought to the sessions back then.

Exactly - her contribution to the music of LA is immense (hell, if all she'd ever done was the Mission: Impossible theme she'd still be a legend) and deserving of unstinting praise, the moreso for being a woman in a male-dominated world.

But... why she continues to claim credits it's been irrefutably proven time and time again are not due her (Jamerson, The Doors, sundry BB tracks), and why she's so astonishingly unpleasant to anyone who has the temerity to point this out, is a complete mystery. Her diatribes against Torrentfreak and Google tell me that her grasp of how the internet functions is at best shaky, but that's no excuse for being so rude and vindictive.

Good points, well made.

BTW: is it true that she also claims to have played bass on 'Light My Fire', where that song doesn't feature a bass?

(Excuses if this sounds silly, I heard the anecdote 10 years ago and barely listened to said song ever, I don't like the Doors. But the idea is funny.)

A diatribe against Google? This sounds interesting.

 "...an "expert" on the Beach Boys' stuff who lives in England and is a bully to a lot of fans, setting himself up as some sort of "god" to history..."

I think there is some truth to what she said.  :lol

 :lol well, if you put it this way (sorry AGD), it's mighty funny in itself... selective citing can be hilarious indeed...

No argument here. But I think even my most active detractors would be hard pressed to agree with "This purported self-appointed "expert"....this current phony posting on one board or more is posing as an "expert" on the Beach Boys' stuff who lives in England... Haha, never ceases to amaze me about these types of guys living on their lies and subterfuge of posing as a guru of information that is totally false but is obsessed to pretend to be a vip.... the Internet helps them set up with their pure lies so they can "enchant" the masses for awhile...and it's not good for people like Brian to have these types mislead people either....They are really self-delusional guys who eventually get laughed at -- hard to believe that people actually do fall for their lies tho' for awhile.... Yes, he just can't stand to be "corrected" -- yet (and most are finding this out too) he makes outlandish claims which are all lies all the time.... I guess the truth is very threatening to him...So easy to fool people on the internet which takes time to ferret out if it's lies or truth...I think he's really on his way out now tho'. Sad case."

So I invented the Capitol label, and this band "The Beach Boys" and all their releases and chart positions ?  Damn, I'm better than I thought I was.  ;D

Keep in mind the parts I've highlighted the next time Kaye claims to have played on MoTown hits recorded in Detroit, or on "Surfin' USA", or "IWMTLH". Remind you of anyone ?  ;)

BTW, if I'm a "God" to history (something my avatar naturally confirms), not entirely sure how the truth can be "very threatening" to me. But then, I wasn't there at the time, was I ?  ;)

Hey AD:  Did you get that case of Maple Syrup that I sent?

You always have and always will be there, no matter your detractors; you're a God , after all! 

There is bass on most/all(?) Doors studio tracks. Doug Lubahn is credited on the first album. You can hear it on Light My Fire, a bass instrument in the right channel e.g. listen at 0:10-0:16, it's kind of Beach Boysy almost, so it's not Ray on the organ. The Doors didn't have a bass player in their live shows.

Cheers for that!

wow, Motown didn't move out to LA until '72, right? So she is claiming she played on Motown stuff that was recorded in Detroit?

 :p

Next thing you know, Carol will claim she played bass on all the White Stripes albums.

Bass was admitted to on just the one track on The Doors, albeit in later years, and Lubahn didn't play on that one (rather, the next three). Lately it's emerged that because the Fender Rhodes bass keyboard recorded so badly, Larry Knetchel was called in on the quiet to overdub bass onto six tracks, including "Light My Fire". Kaye claims to have played on it, but she didn't.

I'd guess that its Carl on bass, Dennis on drums. My reasoning is that Carl was the BB's resident Motown fan, and he learned those parts for fun...I doubt Al ever did, Bruce isn't exactly known for his soul. C-man might have additional insight.

Your guess trumps my guess.  :)

Since it was a Wild Honey track, how about that guy "Ron", who Bruce mentioned years ago as having been hired to play some bass tracks on WH? Not to deny Carl a credit, but that bass line is a bit more advanced than perhaps Carl was as a bassist in 1967.

Until C-man settles this, your guess is as good as mine.

Right,

My best theory has been that Ron Brown was in there, uncredited since he was already being paid for going on the road or something.  I have a hard time imagining Carl playing that line...

Ron Brown is a possibility, although the IWMTLH session contract only lists Beach Boys as I recall.

Had you ever imagined Carl playing bass on Good Vibrations until now? Although i guess his bit didn't make the single.

This is true but taking the evidence of the latter half of '67 into account, the evidence where we can hear Carl playing bass, he wasn't doing anything close to melodic, syncopated lines in the way Jamerson and McCartney were doing, and the style of bass on IWMTLH seems a little beyond where Carl was at as a bassist in '67. I could see Ron playing it, as a dedicated bassist. Carl's GV part at least that seeming to be captured on film doesn't have that Motown feel, but heck yeah I was surprised to see him in the studio!

That is an issue, but I can imagine some circumstance where somebody says "Let's have Ron play bass on this" and Ron says "You gonna pay me?" and somebody says "Well, you're already on the clock, you can't double dip."  And then they leave him off the contract.  It's a stretch and without evidence totally speculative.

Nothing on GV presents the same demands on a bassist that IWMTLH do.  Not that it's that hard to play, and maybe Carl secretly practiced bass a lot, but I feel like that's not something he'd put together up to recording standards, though I would LOVE to be proved wrong.

Carl's style of bass was staying more on the rhythmic root notes, I can't think of any bass lines he played in the 60's where he did anything close to a melodic line like Jamerson. Are there any?

Ron Brown is way more of a natural for that part...i agree...but up the thread we were talking about the likelihood of it being between Al, Bruce... or Carl...and if I had to guess from those three choices I'd definitely say Carl just because of his Motown leanings.

C-man would LOVE to settle this, but to do that he requires the opportunity to listen to the entire UNEDITED tape from that session (assuming there is more than what's shown up on the SOT boot).  And then the requirement is that the dialog on the tape actually reveals the identity of the bass player (some session tapes do, some don't).  Hopefully that will happen some day, but until then...my best guess is Ron Brown, my second best is Carl.  

C-man, is there any other evidence where somebody hasn't been put on an AFM sheet by the Boys for a reason like I suggested?  Like, since they were already under contract and "on the clock" so to speak, they maybe even had a legal right not to pay them for the session?  When, if ever did they stop filing AFM sheets?  I know there are spotty Sunflower records, but then Surf's Up drops off, doesn't it?  Even though presumably Daryl and Eddie and others are all over that record?  Did they get paid for those sessions?

Just to remind: Carl isn't listed on that GV sheet as playing bass, yet the film shows him on bass.

And through a magazine article, another possible disputed credit popped up for me last week with who played baritone guitar on Glen's "Wichita Lineman"...the WC website has the AFM contract stating one thing, and the son of the musician who says he played it reports another. Confusing stuff.

Carol has always said that Glen used her Dano for that.

A person's style of bass playing doesn't matter if they're playing on a cover song and duplicating an already-written bassline.

It does if they have never developed a feel for that idiom, or the facility to play the line in the first place.

LOL what a riot!!!

Well, to me anyway, AGD strides around here as a Colossus, and well he should.  His expertise is much appreciated!

I think Carol Kaye hates men and things she doesn't understand.

But the same could be said for a lot of people.

Actually, Motown had an office in LA, and many album tracks were recorded there, sometimes entire albums. HDH also recorded some tracks in LA with the Wrecking Crew, including The Supremes' Love Is Here And Now You're Gone. Many Motown groups recorded covers of smashes from other acts on the label, and these were sometimes recorded in LA. These are most likely the sessions Carol was "confused" about. Or, maybe she is just crazy.

That's been suggested to her more than once, but she insists she played on the hit versions. Oddly, despite having listed all the union sessions, her session log makes no mention of these recordings, according to Allan Slutsky.

IIRC she tries to do the GV bass riff in the Endless Harmony video and fluffs it.

I didn't know about having stuff recorded in LA earlier. Thanks for the information.

Um, yeah, there's a few times where we know someone played a session but they aren't on the AFM (although I can't say for sure I know the reason why they aren't):  most notable example is Frank DeVito's absence from the "Surfin' USA" contract.  And of course, Carl's name is absent from the contract for many sessions that the tape reveals he is playing on (like the 6/16 "Good Vibrations" session...yet his name IS on the 6/18 "Good Vibrations" contract, which he also played).  I have access to AFM sheets all the way up to Brian's 2005 Christmas album sessions.  As for the "Surf's Up" album sessions:  there's an AFM contract for every single song on that album, but the problem is (with the exception of "Long Promised Road") they are obviously "fudged" (only the BBs themselves are listed).  For "Long Promised Road", Carl Wilson is listed over & over again for each of the instruments he played (and he played them ALL on that one).  Similarly, the "Holland" AFMs appear to be "fudged".  But, ironically, for the album inbetween ("So Tough"), they appear to be pretty much complete, with one exception:  the piano player for Ricky & Blondie's two tunes is NOT listed on the contract, but it's Alex Del Zoppo from the band Sweetwater (this fact was uncovered by the awesomely dilligent & dedicated BBs researcher Ian Rusten).  And then there's Russ Titleman playing percussion on "She Knows Me Too Well" and Terry Melcher playing tambourine on one or two "Pet Sounds" cuts.  There's one or two other examples, but they all seem to be friends of band members who maybe joined the session at the last minute, and maybe didn't care about not getting paid.  I don't think Carol Kaye would fall into that category.  As for Ron Brown, who knows. 

So who played on the Carl & The Passions album other than The Beach Boys and the Dragon brothers?

That's wonderful information, C-man, exactly what I was interested in and beyond.  It's nice to know that AFM sheets are alive and well.  They are such a fascinating piece of the puzzle.  I think I've seen the LPR sheet--certainly proof that Carl knew what he was doing.


That has always felt pretty home-grown to me, but definitely a dark spot on my who-played-on-what RADAR.

We can still admire her work - and she does seem to be a humorous, fun- loving person on the session tapes - but not approve or like the person she has become.  Kind of like Phil Spector.  

*rimshot*

It does matter, a great deal actually. There's more to playing a part than the notes, and if you've ever transcribed a Jamerson bassline or tried to play one, the notes are complicated enough, but once you get the notes down the feel and the groove are what sets it apart. It's a groove that is tough to nail if you haven't played that style, it's very unique. I'm just saying, not that Carl wasn't competent, but he really didn't play bass and didn't play like that if he did.

That's not the credit I just read - and there is the new controversy! Let's compare notes on who actually played the part, seriously! :) Whether Glen played it or not is one issue, then which session guy played it if it wasn't Glen is the other.

Early Jackson 5: I Want You Back, ABC, those were cut in Hollywood using some Wrecking Crew members like guitarists Don Peake and Louis Shelton, and future jazz-fusion stars like Joe Sample and Wilton Felder. A lot of people thought that was Motown but they recorded in Los Angeles.

my vote goes to Bruce or Ron Brown (as long as there's no possibility it's Carol ... to me it sounds like her style).

MOTOWNPHILLY

Sorry, but I think "Slutsky" is a hilarious name.  ;D Sorry to hijack the thread. As you were.  :p

Ugh.  Reading some of Carole Kaye's posts reminded me even more of dealing with one member of the Standells.  Same paranoia of people who disagree with them, dislike of being questioned, excessive moderation and rigid message control, and repeated trumpeting of one's laurels over the contributions of others...not to mention not knowing how to come across well to the public.  And how the other original members feel about him is very similar to some of the Wrecking Crew gang's comments.  I think the person who talked about "hating what they didn't understand" hit the nail on the head.  It's really a shame.

Regarding who played bass on that tune, the whole WH album has terrific bass playing and I've wondered for years who did what.  I agree that Ron Brown is the most likely culprit, but I think Carl and Bruce could have copped it.  While it's true there's a feel issue, both those guys really were masters at reproducing stuff.  I'm always amazed that, long after he stopped playing bass regularly, every time Bruce would sync a bass line for a video or something he would nail it to the wall.  It's not like he HAD to, right?  'Cos the thing wasn't plugged in.  I'm more skeptical that Al could have done it.  Not that Al was a bad musician, but I don't think he was as quick a mime as Carl or Bruce were.

I agree...I don't think they ever would have come up with the bass line, but I could see either one of them learning it and playing it decently.

Carol Kaye hates women, too.  I can attest to that.  I also think she understands perfectly, she just chooses to lie. I had an online run-in with her years ago on one of her message boards and she banned me from her board for asking an innocuous question, and explained to me why she banned me in the most incredibly mean e-mails I've ever gotten from anyone.  She has done as bad or worse to several other people, not to mention lying left and right about her credits and dishonoring James Jamerson. She's a rude, mean, mendacious woman.    She is a living embodiment of that Tony Asher phrase "musical genius, amateur human being," except for the musical genius part.  Talented, yes, which makes her behavior even more bizarre.  She knowingly lies, there's no way it's just a mis-remembering.  

My experience with Carol has been positive ... I think she's generally a nice lady and regardless of these personal interactions some people have had with her over the internet, she has accomplished more than most of us ever will with regard to the greatest recordings of all time.  So i think we should show some respect.  And I've found in dealing with musicians of the '60s that their memories are not always accurate ... it's disrespectful to call them out on it.  When Sky Saxon told me all of the Seeds records were cut on 16-track tape, i just grinned and had another beer.  I understand historians need to get the facts straight, but the human element is all to often ignored around here.

I'd show respect if she hadn't:

called me a thief on a public forum...

called me a liar and a phony in another public forum from which she barred me responding...

sent unpleasant emails gloating about how she'd banned me from her forum...

dragged my mother into her rant about me...

refused to admit she was wrong when presented with irrefutable evidence...

repeatedly claimed - if you prefer, lied - to have played on songs she didn't, thus belittling the original musician...

She wants respect ? Show me and the other people she's treated similarly some first. I'm sure she's been nothing but pleasant to many, most people, but to me (and others), since 2000, she's been nothing but a vindictive bitch. She might be advised to read up on the libel laws sometime.

No, people here are not imagining things or not cutting her a fair break.  She is the guilty party.  Period.  She goes out of her way to make personal attacks when no one is attacking her personally whatsoever.  I will give you some details of what went down with her in my instance.  Her message board was at one time an open forum.  I was participating in a discussion with some other posters on the board about the Beach Boys American Family miniseries during the time it was first broadcast.  We were discussing Brian's mental breakdown and drug abuse as it was portrayed in the film.  The discussion did not involve Carol Kaye herself in any way, shape, or form, so we were not talking about her precious session credits or her.  She had not herself participated in the thread until she suddenly decided to offer her two cents at the end.  She claimed that Brian never, ever used drugs in his life and had never, ever been mentally ill, and that the filmmakers were dead wrong to even suggest that.  She said the thread was closed.  She then later deleted the thread.  Fine.  But then I got an e-mail a day later from Carol Kaye, where she said I was wrong about Brian ever using drugs or being mentally ill (okay, fine, whatever, her opinion), that she was banning me from her board for daring to suggest it (even though other people on the thread said the same things), and that my problem, in her opinion, is that I was mentally ill and either a drug user or alcoholic or both.  She said I needed professional help and was a sad case.  I sent her an e-mail back telling her she was a bi-atch (though used a nicer term, I think), she didn’t know me, she was the one who had personal problems and showed that by sending me such an unwarranted personal attack, and that I was blocking her from my e-mail.  And I did.  There’s no excuse whatsoever for her shameful behavior.  I read what she said about AGD on the Blueboard during the time it happened and was appalled.  I had observed her doing it to other people who disagreed with her, as well.  And yes, she lies.  Period.  Not misremembers, she lies.  Read Slutsky’s board about her claims about her playing on Jamerson’s recordings and believe it.  She’s shameful (and has no shame) and what she’s doing is also racist. 

Re-reading a couple of posts her, notably about the way ms. Kaye suddenly fires out of all cylinders with unwarranted attacks, full of lies and spiced with mean insinuations, I'd say: there is absolutely no way in which one can deal with total irrationality. For some people, 2 + 2 equals 5 if they in any way can benefit from that.

No use in getting upset over such 'adversaries', so to speak. I am sorry to say that her behaviour, as represented here, reminds me of the hallmarks of a true borderline personality. Such people constantly seek to overstep normal human boundaries, in whatever way possible, and also always try to determine the mood in any given setting. Is there a nice atmosphere? The borderliner will destroy it, and create chaos and aggression. Is there perhaps a bit of tension? The borderliner will show an almost sickeningly sweet type of behaviour.

Tragic.

Anyone who can claim that Brian never touched drugs or suffers from mental illness can't be trusted to give a honest opinion on anything.

I was just about to say the same thing.

Seconded. I mean: thirded.

BTW there never were sessions for any album called SMiLE. All lies.

Brian Wilson himself would most likely be the first one to admit that he has had mental health issues. I wonder what she has to say to that?

That it was an imposter who said that.

That reminds me of the Paul is dead rumors.  ;D

Brian Wilson and Paul McCartney died in the same car accident.

The new Brian obv isn't the same one from 1966.

Damnit I should have read the new post that was posted before I was able to reply. You jerk.  ;)

It's actually pretty unsurprising that CK was totally unaware of Brian's drug usage or mental health problems.  Listening to the studio tapes from their era of working together, one can very easily see why she had the perception she had.   BW sounds sober, sensible and articulate.    If Brian was coming to studio while he was high or tripping or delusional, it certainly does not show up in the audio from the Pet Sounds/Smile era sessions.

Do you guys feel the acid yet?  :brian

No. I never drink battery acid. Ruins the teeth.

Note that the comment is from a vocal session.
The instrumental tracking sessions seem to have been all business.

Yeah, there's also a tracking session where Brian is telling them about an eye spray that stops them getting bloodshot cos you've smoked too much. I mean, even if she only had the tracking sessions to go on, you could reach the conclusion Brian took drugs. But she's been around Brian for most of his insanely turbulent life, and she thinks he DOESN'T HAVE MENTAL PROBLEMS. Jesus H.

She does sound rather....unstable. What she said to you both is pretty nasty. And I can't believe her constant disrespect of the finest bass player to ever walk the earth

She hasn't said one word about John Entwistle.  ;)

What gets me is the amount of time CK spends on Facebook. Phenomenal. And the CK interviews on YouTube, added together, make for more than 102 years of viewing, which means she can't ever have had the time to play bass on Surfin'.

 :lol

I think I'll send her a friend request...  ;D

 :lol

Did Carol ever say that?  All I have heard (read) her say is that she never saw any drugs in the studio when Brian was there and that he always had complete control.

Well said.  Yeah, I never had a problem wih Carol. She voluntarily signed the book in my Pet Sounds Sessions box and she in turn had Hal Blaine sign it. She also sent me a few personalized guitar picks and answered all my questions via e-mail and I never had any run-ins with her. Seemed normal and very nice.

Thanks, AGD, great stuff... and maybe that's why i thought the bass sounded "Beach Boysy" (I originally typed "Pet Soundsy" then changed it), cos it's Larry Knechtel.

I did notice that when I did read Carol's board, she was nice to some of the people who asked bass-related questions.  She'd suggest what type of bass a new player should purchase and so forth.  If you don't push any of her buttons, she is capable of being kind and helpful, that is true.  She's just uh, odd.  It makes her look bad and it's sad she tarnishes her own legacy with random extreme rudeness and a pattern of lying about certain things.  It's almost like she thinks, "I played on a few Motown records, so therefore I must have played on numerous Motown records, not to mention other hit records that I'd like to claim.  I will tell you which ones I'd like to think I played on whether I actually played on them or not.  My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts, or I'll bite your head off, you little Internet freak."  She also likes to impress people with her "close personal friendship" with Brian Wilson, so she might think she owes him some major defense against any and all charges.  

well sure, I see. Carol has been nice to a small collection of people, who then choose to defend her in the face of overwhelming proof that she's a nutjob.
 She WAS a great session player, no doubt. Too bad that wasn't enough

Who's defending her? I just said she was nice to me. This was back in 2000, 2001. She asked me if I'd like my Pet Sounds book autographed and of course I said yes! She volunteered Hal's signature and I said yes! She said she would send me a little surprise with the returned signed book and she did! She's 10 years older now and sometimes old ladies forget things and are rude and persnickety and their personalities are a little less than desirable. My 85 year old Grandma was like that. I understand that.

Besides, Bgas. I'm nice to people. The Smile I send out usually returns to me. Can you say that about yourself?

All the time

Um... it was in 2000 that she started calling me a liar and a thief. It's not a development of the last decade, it's how she was back then, and she's not changed: go on her MB and ask her about James Jameson, or mention you're a friend of mine - you'll be barred before you know it.

It just gets me when people jump on bandwagons just for the hell of it. They've never had a problem with the person in question, but it's just easy to admonish people because it's the 'cool' thing to do, especially on a message board. You can't really relate to the problem someone is having with a particular person, but "Oh, what the hell, let me put my 2 cents of B.S. negativism in just because so and so did".  "You know, I don't have anything against the person, and I don't know the person, nor have I ever talked to that person or ever communicated with them before, but I'll take sides with the person throwing poo at them anyway just 'cause I feel like it".

As Steve Martin once said, "Don't criticize things you don't know about".

Sure Mikie, maybe you need to buy a new mirror

See Carol's evil power is turning you all against each other and and soon...she'll have played the clavinet riff on Superstition!!

As a person who she attacked for no reason, I was just giving fair warning as to how she is.  She also will attack you for other things than her session credits.   Just be warned, that is all.  Play nice with her (or her definition of nice, and not yours) and she can be nice, unless you mention some topic she has a bee in her bonnet about, and it could be something you wouldn't expect. It has nothing to do with age and she hasn't changed. 

Some Wrecking Crew people have negative feelings but they don't seem to want to spell them out.  I take that as a sign of the depth of respect they have for her on a professional level, even if they have problems on a personal level.  I get the feeling she's had a falling out with Hal Blaine in recent years.  She has some kind of crusade against him about using the Wrecking Crew label in his book that he wrote years ago.  She hates that the musicians are now called the Wrecking Crew and she blames Hal's book.  She can be a little picky, to say the least.

OK...I asked Bruce who played the Motown-style bass on the BBs' version of IWMTLH, and without prompting from me, his answer was:
Ron Brown.

Ha!


Amazing! Does this mean the Wild Honey bass mystery is finally -- solved? I mean, I remember people debating this on the original Cabinessence board back in 96!

Well maybe for that one song...Bruce also tells me that HE (Bruce) played both the bass and the "cheesy" (as he describes it) organ solo on the "Wild Honey" title track.  So, some of the bass on the album is Bruce, some is Ron, some might be Carl, some might be Brian, some might be Al...

Nooooooooo!

So what's the board rules again?  People can talk crap about members of the Wrecking Crew but not fellow posters?

Damn.

Carol told me they were never called the Wrecking Crew.

Does anyone know when they started getting called that?  Did it start with Hal Blaine's book in the 1990's?  Did Hal coin it himself, or did he refer in his book as to why he used that name, or did someone he worked with coin the phrase? 

Anyone here watch Jeopardy?  They had a 'Wrecking Crew' category a couple nights ago.  The BBs, CK and Hal B. all made it into the questions.
http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=3770

Probably similar to how Frank Sinatra & co were never the Rat Pack.

Even though they were.

It's all Hal. I remember when he came to a Beach boys convention in Oakland and gave a talk and signed books for the fans. He said that he came up with "Wrecking Crew" because he believed that the older studio musicians were thinking that he and other young studio musicians were going to wreck the music industry.

WH cheesy organ solo..??..HMM ...not to my ears.!!.. Great solo + chord changes + bass part also..1St time i heard that song i was in high school..WHOA..!! Thats the BB..?? The song rocks..!!

Fantastic!  I would love, and I'm sure you feel the same way, C-man, to get Bruce to do a run down on more of that stuff.  Being a natural arranger, he would probably be more attuned to that stuff than anybody.  Love to hear more about Ron's involvement on record, and frankly, about Ron Brown in general.

Good work!

What about The Standells story..??Like to read it..Had most of their LP'S + played their songs in my band in High School..Also The Raiders were faves back then..Both kinda punk for their day..!!

Also, about Carol--

She was very nice to me as well, basically wrote a book to me about recording bass in the mid 60s that was great.  But once I asked her about a credit, boom, I was banned.

She just has that sore spot, but yeah, she can be very helpful, which is why it is frustrating.  With so few WC members left in this world, it is nice to get in as many remembrances as we can.

There's a fresh Carol Kaye thread on Brian's board where they are calling out us "historian types" for doubting poor Carol. Facts are such a problem for sheep when they don't fit the established myth.

Blueboarders need to accept the fine work beach boys historians like you and AGD have done in breaking the Myths.

I wonder if Carol wrote a nasty letter to Alex Trabek about that?  "Alex, we were NOT called the Wrecking Crew.  You are a sad case."

Thought so! Very nice to see that confirmed after years of discussion and guessing. No one else in the core band played bass that way.

What year was that? The name was around in the 80's, I do know that, and it was credited to Hal. The term "Wrecking Crew" isn't used as much, but back in the day it referred to either the demolition workers who would tear down a building before new construction would start, or any person or group who was called in to clean house.

A quick Google search shows a Blaine reference to the term, quoted in a book, as early as 1977.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22wrecking+crew%22+blaine&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UanZTtanLsbMtgfZwqH3Bg&ved=0CBcQpwUoBA&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1962%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F1986&tbm=bks

Nice find! And a few entries down the page is a Modern Drummer piece from 1982 where Hal mentions "some people called us the Wrecking Crew..." or something similar, suggesting maybe Hal wasn't the first to use it but he got it from someone else back in the day. Yet more often I've seen Hal get the credit for the nickname.

Different people have different sensitivities, and these kinds of interactions can be handled more delicately and diplomatically.  

I suspect the name was inspired by the Dean Martin movie title, since they played on his records.  It also is suggestive of the kind of sound they made when they played those big Spector sessions.

Guitarfool, "Wrecking Crew" has been around for years and years, DECADES before the 80's. The wrecking crew used a wrecking ball to knock down old buildings and stuff. They still do I think, but most do it with more precision, using dynamite and other explosives. Hal just used that term to kind of dramatically describe the young rock & rollers coming in and 'wrecking' the music business.

The question of Hal that I always liked - Hal always answered it pretty much the same way:

Q: Was Dennis Wilson's ego bruised - was he jealous that you played on Beach Boys records?

A: Dennis loved it. He was driving in his car or hanging out on his boat while I was making records and I was earning $35 in the afternoon, he was making $3,500 or $35,000 that night onstage.

Never heard that quote. Funny stuff.

I know what an actual wrecking crew is, I already posted that above, "back in the day" meaning well before the 80's. I mentioned the 80's because that is the earliest *I Personally* remember seeing that term relating to the musicians who played for Spector, and it was in an article about a Spector reissue in the 80's, probably in Goldmine since I used to read it back then. Now an article from '77 mentions it with Hal, as does Modern Drummer in '82 where Hal suggests someone else gave them that name.

I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. :-D
Or maybe I did and I don't realize it yet... ;D

So wait if there was no "Wrecking Crew," if I decided to name my band that.... You don't think Carol Kaye would write me an angry email do you? God forbid I be labeled a thief and a pirate. That would be devastating to me.

Really ? I finally bailed there recently because I couldn't stand the luminous stupidity of certain posters any more. Guess they'll be burning our books soon, Jon...  ;D

Last people to burn books like that were those pesky nazi germans. ;D

Like calling someone a liar and a thief for no other reason than pointing out that your recollection is wrong ? Very delicate, most diplomatic. Why do you think her name won't make it past the Bloo filter, hmmmmmmm ?  ;)

Also: http://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=carol+kaye (http://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=carol+kaye)

Well... they did give us the Beetle.  ;D

...and fine beers and Bratwurst...

This site on Jamerson is interesting regarding Carol stealing credit

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html (http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html)

(http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7400000/Old-Man-Yells-At-Cloud-the-simpsons-7414384-265-199.gif)

That's funny.  ;D

Well, actually, no. The last people to burn books are generally christian folks who can't stand anything they don't like being printed in books; it happens every few years...

Also Beatles LPs over one sarcastic comment from John Lennon about being bigger than Jesus.

I just re-read the Jamerson part of the Bassland site.  Anyone who defends Carol should think again.   What a bald-faced liar she is.  She must be some kind of psychopath to lie in the face of people refuting every one of her claims, including all the Motown people who were producing the sessions and her Wrecking Crew compatriots as well.  She says there was an agenda against her by "black males" because she was a white, female musician.  Racist much?  She's such a con artist she even goes into fantasies about how you can hear she was "scuffling" with the bass strings while she, Carol, was banging out that bass part on Stevie Wonder's "I Was Make to Love Her."  Yeah, right.  What a horrid woman.  I wonder if those people popped up on the Blueboard recently to defend her because she asked them to, in order to counteract the thread over here?  It wouldn't surprise me, since she does send confederates out to defend her.  What a piece of work. 

My part of it wouldn't be particularly edifying.  But there's a book out there I believe that tells their overall history.

Actually, I think it's most recently been done by extremist radical Muslim people...along with blowing up statues of certain spiritual leaders held in esteem by people of other faiths.

It's very sad.  She has plenty of legitimate credits on major league hits, so why she should continue on with trying to take credit away from someone else is just mind boggling.  Is she that in need of love?  Sad.  Very very sad.

Coincidentally, a DVD with highlights from a Dutch music TV show called 'Top 2000 A Gogo' came out yesterday, which includes a short item about Carol Kaye. In the introduction, they play two of the many examples of her excellent bass playing: 'Good Vibrations' and 'I Was Made to Love Her'.  ;D The item includes a rather painful scene where Kaye takes the camera crew to the Ocean Way studios. She walks in unannounced, mumbles something to a receptionist about having played on thousands of sessions there and having made a whole lot of money for the studio, and tries to just walk into one of the recording rooms. When someone tells her she can't go in because all the studios are booked, she storms out and walks away from the studio and the camera crew. End of item.

OOH..!!..That is painful..Kinda like Dont you know who i am..?..OOH..EGO..!!!!!!!!!!!!

Forgot about that, that whole statue distruction was nuts.

Maybe a little of Spector rubbed off on her...

I'm not really into defending false claims. 

For every Brian Wilson or Paul McCartney, there's a Carol Kaye, a Sky Saxon, a James Jamerson, or Arthur Lee ... people who were there, made great contributions to some of the greatest art of all time but who maybe have had to struggle to pay the bills later on.  Some of them have skewed views of their history.  I just feel there are respectful and disrespectful ways to interact with them.

Carol Kaye was there and we weren't.  I have nothing but respect for her; end of story.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. 

So you have respect for someone who has consistently claimed credit for something she's not done at the expense of the true contributor, who is no longer here to defend himself ? You say she was there ? Not in Detroit, she wasn't: she admits that herself. I don't dispute she was an iconic bass player in the LA studio scene and her contribution to to literally hundreds, thousands of classic songs is rightly lauded. She is unquestionably a legend. Equally, given the evidence presented here and elsewhere over the past few decades, neither you nor any other CK 'defenders' can dispute that she's been thoroughly unpleasant and vindictive to anyone who disputes her recollections and has demonstrably lied about playing on some iconic rock sessions.

Sir, if that is your idea of respect, I don't wish to know you.

i get it bro.  but with the tone around here, you'd think we were talking about someone who did not play on 'pet sounds' and 'smile'.

you can be a little hot-headed yourself at times.  but don't take offense -- i still respect you as a historian.  but i can see why the history makers and those who chronicle them could perhaps be at odds at times.

Did you actually read this part of my post - "I don't dispute she was an iconic bass player in the LA studio scene and her contribution to to literally hundreds, thousands of classic songs is rightly lauded. She is unquestionably a legend." - ?

Actually, we're talking about someone who says she played on a mess of Motown hits, The Doors "Light My Fire" and "Surfin' USA" and "Surf City" when the AFM contracts say she didn't (e.g Surf City AFM (http://wreckingcrew.tv/afmcontracts/Jan+Dean_SurfCity.pdf)).

With all due respect, I don't care if she did or didn't play on Smile. This is a question about proper behaviour of a human being. I don't care if you are the President of the United States Of America. If you don't show respect and proper conduct, then you aren't worthy of being shown the same respect. The part about AGD's mother was particularly vicious, inexcusable and, IMO, unforgivable.

Well, I don't think it's a good idea to fight fire with fire.  This is a public forum and many here are making disrespectful & offensive statements quite casually.  It just reeks, that's all.

sometimes people believe things that are not true.  and i don't think the 'facts' of the '60s are black & white.

Ah... so CK can call me a liar, a thief and a phony on her website forum, and drag my mother into the nonsense purely to try and make me look small, and that's OK, but when I reply in kind by calling her a proven liar according to the very AFM contracts she holds as near-gospel, that's disrespectful and offensive ?

You're related to her, aren't you ? I'll bet she could come over to your place, break the windows, steal your car and set fire to the house and that'd be OK with you because hey, it's Carol Kaye, and you have the utmost respect for her. I may be a picky historian, but I'm not blinkered that badly.

Carol Kaye says she has never visited Detroit. All the Motown hits she claims to have played on were recorded in Detroit. End of argument.

Hear, hear.  I always get amused at how my fellow Beach Boys fans like to take things so personally.  Carol Kaye wants to believe she played bass on everyone's tracks?  Fine.  Her living in her fantasy land don't bother me none.  Sure, she said some nasty things directed at AGD.  But there is a simple reason for that: she's crazy.  And you can't fix crazy.    

nah, i wasn't really talking about you, but some of the others.  but you are a little hot-headed, as least on the internet.  i'm sure you're a nice guy in real life.  i am too.

no relation to Carol; the only person in the Beach Boys world I know if real life and would consider a personal friend is Durrie Parks, who is a very sweet lady incidentally.

Good points, well made. Perhaps the upshot of it all must be: she's a great artist, and also a pathological liar. The latter means: for the last decade or so, she can't act otherwise, kind of a compulsion. Which does not diminish the gravity of the insults she spreads around.

It wouldn't be a problem if everyone would know that Kaye is living in a fantasy world and shouldn't always be taken too seriously. But unfortionately there are writers and journalists who don't do their homework and write her claims down as if they are the facts, so that history gets distorted and some people don't get the credit they deserve.

What's also too bad is, if you read that link AGD posted a few pages back, there are people out there who have tried to be helpful to Ms. Kaye, and then she's banned them, or whatever, and then they end up specifically trying to avoid listening to music she's recorded.  Nobody should feel compelled to voluntarily exclude themselves from some of the greatest music ever recorded.

...but can't one, with all the modern tech gizmos, just excise ms Kaye's contributions? With an antikayolizer?

It's not my issue, obviously, but it's always upsetting to see this sort of thing being a part of something I love. Either way, I don't like seeing people try their damnedest to discredit others, especially others who are not around to defend themselves. Nothing personal at all, obviously, but yeah.

Well, you could certainly cut off all frequencies in the bass range.  I feel like the result would be rather tinny, though.

And the upper harmonics of the bass parts may very well remain present anyway  :afro

If Beach Boys fans haven't learned by this point to separate gorgeous work from the flawed humans who created it, they're the ones living in a fantasy world.

THIS is EXACTLY how you nail a point on a message board. Nice to see someone understands without clouding it with..."yeah but"...and..."I can see both sides"...etc... She is trusted by many as an expert on history, and she's not interested in knowing the truth. Its a really damaging combination.

My problem with that philosophy is that I had actual interaction with Carol in the real world.  She played some mean bass but it's no excuse to be mean.

Well said, Jon.  I certainly remember how exhaustively you researched "The Real Beach Boy", and also remember the anguish on your face when some new facts would arise after it was published.  All the more reason why we're all looking forward to a new, expanded edition!

Thanks Man...you gave me the most help of anybody. But as you said, the longer we live, the more we learn that we didn't know before...and sometimes that includes finding out things that prove what we thought was true is wrong. Its an ever evolving process right? BTW...happy Dennis day to you, I know this day can be a tough one for you sometimes. And especially with the Larry thing thrown at our buddy too...I hope all is well with you. We gotta get together soon.

Writers and journalists *not* doing their homework???  What a revelation.  Don't you think we should direct the fault at them for not checking their facts?

The problem is that sometimes the best sources are considered the people who were there, and by using their discographies or bios, or by interviewing them writers think they are fact checking. There are probably dozens of sources, books, websites, wikipedia, documentaries, cd liners that credit Hal Blaine as being the drummer on I Get Around and Don't Worry Baby...but how many sources are there that credit Dennis Wilson? Well, my new book is one, there might be one or two more...but its like a 25 to 1 ratio. And guess what, if you listen to the session tape for Don't Worry Baby (which I only got a chance to because I actually found the lost multii-track tape)..its obvious that Dennis is the drummer on that session, you can hear him being talked to by Chuck Britz and Brian as they set levels and work out the intro arrangement. He's there, Hal's not...So I'm right, i did my research...but I'm probably in the minority for the rest of my life as a journalist who declares Dennis played on those songs and not Hal. And often when i point it out I get people asking me why am i disrespecting Hal? Or why do I think I know more than David Leaf? etc... etc... Its not an easy thing. Sometimes its like threading a needle. People like Craig Slowinski are doing a major service to the Beach Boys legacy, but he'll undoubtedly get tons of sh*t for pointing out that Carol Kaye did not play bass on the released version of Good Vibrations. The Wrecking Crew are so deified that even fact checking can get you on the wrong side of people.

He sure will! And I'll be the first in line to give him sh*t about it if he does!

Forget Marie unfortunately has some real issues with Carol. You'd think a member of her own family did her a major unjustice, or that someone committed a serious felony on her. Marie has posted disparaging remarks about Carol multiple times in this public forum, airing out her grievances with Carol, milking it for all it's worth. It became boring reading after the first post. No skin off my butt! Some of us don't have a problem with Carol, and don't care much if she's off bass regarding her facts, whether it be intentional or otherwise. We'd prefer to look at the positive attributes of the woman and commend her for her achievements and talent regardless of her 'colored' personality. I'm one of those people who would take the time go to a book signing or seminar of hers, just like I'm going to make it to Brian's book signing this Tuesday. Same deal. I understand the 'Historian' perspective and the frustration in getting all the facts straight, and I'm not defending her for her supposed personal attacks, but she didn't piss me off, and I don't intend to take the low road and talk crap about her now like some of you guys jumping on the bandwagon.

Of course not. But my point is that the Beach Boys saga is filled with, to put it charitably, damaged and unpleasant people. At a certain point you have to accept that everyone is who they are and take the work for what it is. I mean, Jim Gordon murdered his mother -- something far worse than anything Carol Kaye has ever done -- and yet the coda to Layla is still a transcendent piece of music.

Mike, you have been reported to the moderator. 

You mention Jim Gordon...in his case many folks, and I do mean many as in 98%, have simply erased his name from the history of rock drumming, apart from things like Layla which are impossible to ignore, and anytime you see another Layla article or reissue, you'll see photos of Jim. You can't sweep the image away.

So Jim paid and still pays a price beyond the legal and criminal aspects for what he had done, and that price is he is generally not mentioned in the lineage of the best studio musicians and best rock drummers, period.

I'm an amateur at doing what I do, solely because my work doesn't allow me the time necessary to do all the calling, leg-work, and detective work on the level of the historians. But I'm passionate about what I do and I love looking things up related to studios, session players, and music I love, like the Beach Boys. But in the past 2 years, I have gotten into looking at Jim Gordon's career, and it is just a damn shame that he's not getting mentioned at least next to LA fixtures Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer, and he was Hal's protege.

Even among drummers - professional drummers I know and talk to - his body of work isn't near as well-known. That Nilsson song from Goodfellas "Jump Into The Fire", when the helicopter is chasing Henry Hill around the city - that is Jim Gordon, and it's an incredible part. The g*ddamned drum sample from Apache that helped launch rap music into the mainstream and was sampled a ton of times - Jim Gordon. Mason Williams, "Classical Gas" - Jim Gordon, a young Jim at that. How many folks know those were Gordon, how many drummers know that, yet they can name the type of sticks Hal Blaine played on Be My Baby (kidding, just kidding...).

I'm just saying, the history books are what they are, but what standards do we apply to who gets a fair shake in those books? I'd say Jim Gordon hasn't gotten his due, and the morality debate enters into it when we consider whether his actions in later years should affect our perception of his *body of work*, no matter what those actions are or were. There is no right answer, but I'd say in Jim Gordon's case it would be worth considering his work as a drummer and musician on a separate sheet and put it into the historical context it deserves, because he was absolutely one of the best drummers in LA and among the best ever.

Again there is no right or wrong answer, but when should the history outweigh the events of later years?

By the way Mke, I have not "milked this for all it's worth."  This is the first time I brought it up other than once before, perhaps. You must have problems of your own and a "sad case." as you your warped personal hero Carol would put it.

Why do I get the feeling that Carol herself is putting some of these people defending her up to it?  It wouldn't surprise me.  Funny how Mikie just up and attacks me out of nowhere, even though I posted a few posts back and he didn say a word before.  Carol people are nuts. Big deal, she sent you some picks and an autograph, she's a nasty woman by several people's witness, not just mine.

You can report this to the moderator, too, if you wish.   I don't care. 

He already did Mikie...in the Smile box session notes. According to the research Craig did for Capitol/BRI she's not the bassist on the 1966 hit version of GVs. So fire away.

Guess I missed that part. Who was it, Jon, Ray Pohlman?

Damn it!  After all these years of her saying she played on the released version and even playing her part of Good Vibrations on audio and video, she really didn't? Ooooohhhh, man, she's so deceiving! I think far less about Carol than I did before. I'm very disappointed in her now.   ;D

No one, that I have seen (including myself) is negating her talent, her contributions, or is trying to take away from that.  I know nothing of her being abusive to people because I haven't experienced that (thankfully), but what is at issue is her continued attempts (apparently in part successful ones) to claim credit for others work (specifically Jamerson), even i9n the face of being proven that this is not the case.  You SHOULD care about that.  It's wrong of her, and it goes way beyond simply being "wacky", or "mistaken" or whatever - and thing is, she doesn't need to do it BECAUSE she has so many incredible credits to her name already, she has so much to feel proud of and be respected for.   It's not right.

That's why I love hanging around here. Even though I don't really do much else than post nonsense, it's a real boon to be able to talk to the prominent historians and chroniclers of this band. There's always something new to learn.

I think your missing the point  Mikie!

Craig's comments up this thread say...I wonder if she's seen my sessionography from the big SMiLE box yet, where I lay out exactly how many "Good Vibrations" sessions she played on...fact is, she played 12-string electric on the 4/9 Gold Star version (Ray Pohlman played the Fender bass on both the 2/17 and 4/9 sessions), Dano bass on the 5/24 Sunset Sound session (where Carl played Fender bass), and finally Fender bass on the 6/18 Western session.  That's it.  And NONE of those pieces made it to the final master edit.  So she's not on the single.  All of the Fender bass on the final, master single edit was played by Ray Pohlman, except for in the third bridge & chorus fade; the Fender bass
in those sections was played by Arthur Wright (a genuine Motown session alumnus).

So yeah... mainly Ray according to Craig. BTW...she was really nice to me too back in '99, until i mentioned Hal and the term "Wrecking Crew"...that didn't go down too well. She's a great musician with incredible credits that are real, and I'll always respect the awesome work she's done. Its a shame she's damaged herself with that short fuse and an inability to admit she's misremembered some things.

Whoa, that's a classic there, Jon: "misremembered"

Nope. I'm definitely not missing the point. I understand EVERYONE'S point here. How could I miss the point when I've seen Carol's name and this issue bandied about by AGD for the past 10 years on various message boards? It's no secret that Andrew and Carol have a mutual dislike for one another, and I think Andrew probably has a good reason not to like her in light of her attacking him (sometimes in public - yes I clearly remember it) and getting personal with him. And as far as I can see, that's his business. If she's not representing herself and her history accurately, that's for the Historians to determine, not myself. I just don't have a big problem anymore with whether she played bass on the Beach Boys or Stevie Wonder's version of "I Was Made To Love Her" or whether it was James Jamerson or Bruce Johnston or Ron Brown or Joe Phuckit or whoever.......I figured the issues AGD had with her happened about 10 years ago and it was water under the bridge. It continues to surface as subject matter foder on message boards, and there continues to be no love lost between them it seems. It continues to fester......I was unaware that Jon had issues with her during the research for his book(s)......but he's an author so I can understand why. Do you think Badman had issues with her? I doubt it. 'Course he wasn't/isn't as reputable as Stebbins or Doe anyway. How about Carlin? I don't know. Isn't there anything else productive to talk about that the masses can embrace here?

OK, now let's talk about the issue of slander on message boards. What are the rules? Is there a fine line or can we go all balls out here? If it's OK, then I can think of a couple of other people's names whom I'd like to bring to your attention.....  

Not so - she's kept up her attacks at me on her MB. Here's the latest, last week:

"note: if anyone in the UK says they "have copies of our Union Contracts, they're lying....this fellow named Doe is forever saying that, and he lies more than speaks the truth about our dates with Brian Wilson."

And I'm done being a (relative) gentleman about it. Difference is, I have proof on my side: I do have photocopies of AFM contracts, as well as Stephen McParland's excellent book. She should brush up on the libel laws. Might come in handy in the future.

I wonder what would happen if you were to post pictures of the AFM sheets on her website, or in an e-mail to her? She'd probably say you "altered" them.  ::)

At least in the United States, if someone is a public figure, you can pretty much say however you feel about them. Carol is certainly a public figure, as is Andrew. (Although libel law in the U.K. has a lower bar than the U.S.; I'm not versed in the exact differences.) Issues can arise when you're actively defaming someone, which is different than just saying they're rotten or passing along damaging gossip which you have reason to believe is true.

In other words, nothing Andrew has said about Carol is off-limits, legally, based on my understanding of U.S. law, because it is basically entirely factual. Carol, on the other hand, may be crossing a line in one country or another because she seems to be interested in tearing down someone's reputation based on (what she probably knows are) falsehoods. Now, whether anyone has the time or interest to litigate it is another matter -- many cases of libel are ignored in the U.S. and U.K. because it's an incredibly tricky thing to handle in court.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,122.0.html

Nothing particular on slandering, but if one takes rules #2, 4 & 5 in consideration, one would understand that before going "all balls out", some reconsideration on how to put one's outings into words.

This is yet another example of a topic that starts on a general to be disputed statement by one specific person that slowly derails in a broader discussion in which several members are putting the discussion on the razor’ s edge. Personally, I understand where some of the responses come from, certainly if false accusations were made. I wouldn't know what I would do if I were in that position. I'd say now that I would try to show myself in the most dignified way possible, and not fall into the piffall that others did.

So the only advise I would give is to try to keep it cool. One negative response automatically provokes another one, and that certainly doesn't  contribute to a constructive discussion.

Jon, two questions:

- will there be another revision of your dennis or david books, or can I just buy the old editions? They seem to be avaible in Holland
- Why does Hal Blaine get the credits for those songs anyway? Is he on the AFM contract?

Well, I'm pretty sure she at least started preliminary proceedings for a lawsuit against him for putting the AFMs in his book.  Of course, the first edition did have her social security number on said AFMs...

He's not on the AFM blanks for the songs you're talking about.  It's a matter of him being told that he played on "all the Beach Boys stuff" over the years, plus the fact that he did play on a heck of a lot of Beach Boys stuff.  (And lots of covers of Beach Boys stuff.)  Obviously, for all of the WC people, they played on way too many tracks to remember each one.  They might remember some of the highlights, but after thousands of sessions, they are going to blur.  And it's really not a huge deal if they don't get it right at this point, so long as they aren't actively impeding historical accuracy. 

Jim Gordon was indeed an outstanding musician with a very impressive resume (including great work with The Byrds, Frank Zappa, Steely Dan, Traffic and many more) and I think he's deserving of recognition.  I was surprised to see his name crop up so frequently on the TSS sessionography, since I'd always assumed that it was primarily Hal on drums there.  He committed an unfathomable crime, but while I don't know all of the details about his personal life, I believe he did suffer from acute schizophrenia.  For me, that means that he was probably incapable of controlling his actions.  This strikes me as a somewhat different case than Carol Kaye, who appears to intentionally distort to the facts and then viciously attacks those who attempt to set the record straight.  Since she appears to be of sound mind, she should be able to control her behavior better, but I guess these kinds of psychological questions can get pretty subjective.  I imagine that, in her own mind, she's absolutely right and justifiably defending her legacy.

Which is exactly why I was more than willing to give Carol the benefit of the doubt several years back when she was saying it was her, not Ray Pohlman, who played Fender bass on "Good Vibrations"....that and because I knew that there were MANY "Good Vibrations" sessions, and that the final single release was an edit from several of those sessions.  When I stated that I didn't expect her to remember all the details of every session she'd played on some thirty years previous, especially when she was playing up to five sessions a day, she testily responded that she never played "that" many sessions a day (only three to four at the most), and that I didn't know because (a) I wasn't there, and (b) I didn't have access to any of the AFM contracts, which were kept under lock and key and could only be legally viewed by Russ Wapensky.  At the time I didn't have access to any of the "Good Vibrations" AFMs, and I only knew (based on the credits and session excerpt included on the "Pet Sounds" box set) that Ray (not Carol) played on the verse sections.  A few years later, when I did obtain access to all the "Good Vibrations" AFMs and the lengthy session exceprts that appeared on a certain SOT boot, I pointed out that we now had irrevocable proof that Dennis Wilson did (as claimed by at least three of the other Beach Boys) play organ on the slow section of "Good Vibrations"; she responded that I was "wong", that it was Mike Melvoin who played organ on "Good Vibrations", that the verse sections were recorded at Western, not Gold Star (the opposite of what we know to be true), that I didn't know beause I wasn't there, and that her pal Russ Wapensky would set this all straight with his book on the L.A. recording scene post-WWII (which we are still waiting for more than a decade later).  I decided to let her be rather than prove her wrong, primarily because of the multiple sessions involving ever-changing musician lineups at several different recording studios involved in the "Good Vibrations" production (most of which SHE "wasn't there" for), and my decision that it wouldn't be fair to her to expect her to know about any sessions other than the three she was on (all three of which I assumed she played Fender bass at, but now know otherwise).  But when she started to claim other credits that demonstrably weren't hers (the Motown sessions especially) and when she started to act in an especially uncalled for, vindictive, belittling and horribly non-adult manner to Andrew and others, I realized that ANYTHING she says must now, objectively, be looked at in a skeptical light.  Then, once I heard ALL of the unedited "Good Vibrations" session tapes (straight from the vaults, earlier this year) I discovered that she only played Fender bass on one of the three "Good Vibrations" sessions she attended (she played 12-string electric guitar on the first of these three, and Dano bass on the second).  And, I also discovered that the ONE section of "her" three "Good Vibrations" sessions that I thought MIGHT have made it to the final edit (the chorus fade from the 5/24 Sunset Sound session) in fact did not...meaning she is NOT on the final 45 single version of "Good Vibrations" at all.  Nor is she (as she has claimed) the bassist on the Beach Boys' version of "I Was Made To Love Her", according to the AFM sheet, as well as one of the Beach Boys who WAS there.

So after all these years of Carol saying she played on Good Vibrations, she technically did play on Good Vibrations, just not the final take, or released version of the song.

Yes, that is correct.

Yep. A lot of us have Steve's book (out of print last I heard). Wonder what Carol would say if she saw copies of some of those 'published' AFM contracts.  ;D   She knows about Badman already.  I have a first edition Badman - anyone else?

I remember Carol saying in the early 2000's, "Wait for Russ Wapensky's to come out". Carol had provided him with info and she seemed to have trusted his research at the time. Did Wapensky's book on sessions/musicians ever come out?

Edit: Whoops - just re-read C-man's post about the Wapensky book - it's yet to be published!

I had one of those antikayolizers once. It accidentally went off while I watching a DVD of Hans Christian Andersen – it was weird watching a movie with no lead character.

 :lol

Googled it and this was the first hit:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action;topic=2137.0

From what I understand his heavy drug use either brought on or amplified the issues Jim was dealing with when he committed the crime, but I'm not an MD nor a psychologist so I can only say what I've read and heard. The story is he heard voices in his head which drove him to the crime. I believe he may be up for parole/release in the near future, but I'll need to check on that. He apparently did not stop playing the drums.

And it is interesting to see just how many sessions Jim played for Brian in '66: He was Hal's protege, and like guitarists who were students of the first-call players like Tommy and Howard Roberts, the proteges or students of those first-calls might get the call if a guy like Hal could not do a session, and if he made an impression he'd get called back. That sounds like what happened to Jim: Hal probably helped him break into the scene giving him work, and Jim was so good he became established. Brian obviously liked his playing style enough to keep calling him back.

It was kind of sad to not see much if anything about Jim Gordon in Hal's book...

Let me clarify: I'm not in any way comparing Jim Gordon's case with the issues in this thread, but at the same time it is interesting to see them like this: In some cases, we have folks being over-credited or credited for things they were not involved with sometimes through no fault of their own and sometimes as a direct result of their own words, and in Jim's case and perhaps others we have a guy with literally dozens of classic recordings and sessions on his resume, which can be easily viewed, yet no one really talks about him or his body of work. In either case, where does the burden lie for the historians writing these historical accounts?

You have to ask: What is it about Jim Gordon? Arthur Lee is lionized by critics, and look at his criminal record. Bobby Beausoleil has a cult following for his music, look at what he did. Michael Jackson may just be the ultimate example of either deliberately erasing historical fact from the record, or choosing instead to separate the man's artistic legacy from any personal, criminal, or moral issues which may have surrounded his life.

I think if more people saw Jim Gordon's resume and credits, and how highly other musicians spoke of him, the perception would change.

Something Carol has oddly never mentioned, although she has to know about it - the contract for the Wapensky book was cancelled in 2001 by his publishers, Greenwood (I asked them). That's a crying shame, as it would have been one helluva read.


She played on several "GV" sessions, of that there's no dispute. But she has always claimed that she played on the hit single, and the fact is, she didn't, technically or by any other criterion you care to name.

If I weren't going to school for at least half of my life and had a little more money, I would be happy to take up that project.  But I think the best format for that sort of book would be a collaboration.  I picture sort of a companion book to Denny Tedesco's film.  The market for a book that is just lists of studio credits is probably not too attractive, but a large scale photo-based book, like the Beatles Anthology book, might work.  Working in a bookstore, I see tons of that size book coming out.  Nobody buys them of course, but they do get published.

What I picture would feature a lot of behind the scenes photos, a bunch of AFM sheets thrown in there, maybe a photo tour of LA using old photos of locations.  As many interviews as could be included and then analysis by a team of people, ranging from somebody like Denny, to somebody like C-man, Maybe a Mark A. Moore, guys like Mark Linett who could talk about the studio tech a bit, Somebody like the other Craig, Guitarfool, who could write about guitars and the like, maybe even somebody like me.

The key to a book about LA sessions would be to mix plenty of photos and broad info in with the arcane, and have it presented by a range of experts in an attractive book that appeals to a wide cross section of music fans.  Who's in?  Publishers, are you listening?

I'm in 110%, and the key to this might be the authors and researchers would be creating the book they always wanted to buy on this topic but it wasn't out there.

Well, I have all the Beach Boys books and most of the articles written on the subject of Good Vibrations (unarguably my favorite Beach Boys song) and it's sessions, and I've read and posted on these here message boards since 1996, and this is the first I've heard that Carol didn't play on the released version. Was C-man the first to come up with this recently, or has it been well known for a few years now? I musta missed this "fact" in my travels. Haven't opened my Smile box set since I bought it on November 1, haven't read the accompanying book, so this thread is the first I've heard about this. Carol has played that bass riff on video since the Pet Sounds box was released in '97, and I think there's currently 2 or 3 instances on YouTube where she's playing that riff, and it's pretty much assumed and acknowledged by viewers that she played on the released version. I'm curious as to when you guys first found out about this. Just curious - not defending anybody, not disputing it, nor do I hate anybody - just curious.  ;D

The idea of Carol not being on GV at all first came up in my mind upon learning that it was Ray Pohlman on the verse, which is documented in the Pet Sounds box.  But as far as proof of matching up all the sessions to who was there and then to what was on the track, this may be the first time that's all been definitively put together.  But not playing the verse riff, starting up high on the neck, that at least has been out there for years.

I can absolutely understand her confusion when you look at how many GVs sessions took place, over how many months, the fact that she did play at a few and the lengthy period of time that has passed since.

She wouldn't have been in on any of the editing sessions so wouldn't know whose contributions made the cut and whose didn't.

It's only Craig's diligent research that's turned this fact up in recent months.

Given the fact that BW himself has paid her plenty of respect and appeared in vid clips with her, I reckon that – just this once – we ought to forgive her mistakeness.

I reckon Andrew should nip round with a bunch of flowers, make her a brew and put her in the picture.    >:D

In the year 2000 I began a serious undertaking to determine which sections of GV came from which sessions.  By then I had access to copies of all the AFM contracts, and all the sessions were represented in the SOT bootleg set.  After multiple indepth listenings, I believed I had it pretty well nailed down, and posted my findings on this board sometime thereafter (can't remember exactly which year).  The main differences in what I theorized then & what I know for fact now are:  then I thought it was Carl Wilson playing the Fender bass on the chorus in the released version (I also determined that he played Fender bass on the 6/16 Western session, as seen in the recently unearthed B&W session footage), and I also thought there was a good chance (not 100% but close) that the chorus fade came from the 5/24 Sunset Sound session (if so, those final 3 seconds or so of the single would have been the only part of the record that included Carol Kaye's work...at the time I assumed she played Fender bass on that session).  Then, this year, due to my involvement with the official box set project, I was allowed to listen to ALL of the unedited session tapes (in their unedited form, there's a good deal more to some sessions than what appeared on the SOT boot).  That's when I determined that it's Lyle Ritz playing Fender bass on the chorus section, recorded at Western on 6/2, under the working title "Inspiration") (Carl is playing rhythm guitar there, an element virtually buried in the final mono mix, but clearly audible on the unedited session tape), that's when I determined that Arthur Wright is playing Fender bass on the 5/27 Western session that produced the third bridge & chorus fade, that's when I determined that Carl Wilson is playing Fender bass on the 5/24 Sunset Sound version (and that Carol Kaye is actually playing Dano bass on that one), and that's also when Alan Boyd and I determined beyond doubt that the fade section comes from that same Western Recorders session as the chorus, not the 5/24 Sunset Sound session.  So, up until this year I was convinced that if Carol was on any part of the officially released 45 hit version of GV, it was just the final few seconds.  Now I'm convinced, beyond any doubt, that she does not appear on it at all. 

An interesting note:  a few years back, she wrote (possibly on her website) that she felt the session musicians who played on all the original studio recordings of hit records should be entitled to royalties, as they were essentially the actual "artists" (along with the singers, of course), and that she would be lobbying for the recording industry to make this happen.  Now, can you imagine all the violinists on all the hit records ever made being paid royalties?  A staggering thought.

OK, when typing my most recent post above, I realized there was a flaw in my previous post (quoted in this one)...I neglected to mention that Lyle Ritz played the Fender in the choruses...so, the Fender bassists on the final version are Ray, Lyle, and Arthur, with Dano bass by Bill Pitman and upright string bass by Lyle and Jimmy Bond.  :)

Craig, not to excerpt just one point from your terrific post, but Paul Tanner said he received royalties for Good Vibrations, and all he did was play his Electro-Theremin and had not been listed as a writer. The only explanation I can offer is perhaps he got royalties from the use of GV in film and television? In that case, the checks would come in under the AFM contract for film/TV separate from needle-drop, sales, and radio airplays of recordings. But I'm not 100% sure. Any thoughts?

Didn't - and doesn't - stop her from saying she played on the released version, though, and somehow I don't see her going "gee whaddaya know, I was wrong all along ? Silly old me".  If i were Craig and Capitol records, I'd be expecting incoming any time soon.

You have to remember, Carol knows. She was there.

Except, of course, when she wasn't.  :)

Come to think of it, I think that was Carol's main point, that they should get royalties for TV & film uses...if Mr. Tanner's getting royalties, I wonder when that started?

Thank you for the detailed explanation, Craig. Thought maybe the released Good Vibrations sessions on various comps and the SOT set covered most of it, but there's much more, eh? Would be interesting to hear more of the sessions, especially if they reveal more instruments in the mix. When you and Boyd and Linett revisited the GV tapes for the SMiLE release, the frustration of not having the vocal sessions available probably resurfaced.  :(

The Dennis Wilson book is being revised and expanded for a new edition due out next year. I've been working on it (on and off ) for several years, and many other projects have interrupted its progress (see last year's Dennis Wilson documentary and/or my new Beach Boys FAQ book). But the new edition of The Real Beach Boy is getting closer to being ready, and I have a publisher for it (who keeps bugging me to hurry up and get it done)...so its coming.

No plans to revise the Dave Marks book...just buy the old one...I'm real proud of that book.

As Aeijtzsche mentioned the reason Hal gets credit for playing drums on so many Beach Boys tracks that are actually Dennis is because somewhere along the line journalists (see David Leaf) began reporting that Hal took over as the BB's studio drummer after the first couple of LP's...which is extremely untrue. Hal plays on one or two songs on the third LP, one or two on the fourth, maybe three on the fifth etc... Dennis is the drummer on the majority of the Beach Boys stuff until '65 at which time he splits things about 50/50 with Hal, and really it isn't until Pet Sounds that Hal becomes the usual Beach Boys studio drummer, although a couple other drummers pitch in too....which only lasts until Smile breaks down. Dennis plays drums on the majority of the Beach Boys classics from '62 to '65, that's a fact. Hal plays on many of the classics too. My new FAQ book gives you a good breakdown of which ones are Dennis. Unlike Carol, Hal will readily admit he can't remember exactly which ones are him and which are Dennis, but he'd been told they were virtually ALL him for so long that he assumed that was true, but as I said it is not.

Tommy Tedesco always had a supply of one-liners to use at guitar clinics and in interviews. One of the ones which is relevant to what Jon Stebbins just wrote about Hal's drum credits went something like this: I get congratulated and praised by people all over the world for playing guitar on records I had no idea I played on!

He's right: For years, certain records I thought were Tommy and read was Tommy turned out to not have Tommy on them. George Harrison even joked about people praising his lead guitar work on Taxman when it was really Paul. I guess it's par for the course when his list of credits is that long, could Tommy remember every one? :)

It just seems that we are presenting some of this information as fact when it is not. 

Let's take the Beach Boys' 'I Was Made to Love Her'.  Bruce says Ron Brown played the bass.  Carol says she played it.   Neither are on the AFM.  The only thing we know for sure is that either one of the Beach Boys played the bass (doesn't seem likely based on the style), or the AFM sheet is wrong.

Essentially, we are saying that we trust Bruce's memory and his word over Carol's, which is fine.  And certainly understandable based on these other examples in this thread. But let's say that instead of "Carol claims to have played on 'I Was Made to Love Her' when she didn't".

I'm just saying that stranger things have happened (especially in the Beach Boys world) and none of this stuff is ever going to be 100% accurate.  We want facts and sometimes they just aren't there.  We are making conjectures based on evidence presented.

And I'm not specifically trying to defend Carol, I just think think there is some kind of groupthink occuring and it's always a good idea to consider some things outside of it.

Let's say Carol is right about 90% of the things that she played on and wrong about 10% (or whatever percentage you'd like), and she doesn't like being corrected regaring that 10% (and yes, some of these are pretty substantial claims).  Why can't we just take it with a grain of salt and leave it at that?

Well, as a bit of a fan I'm a bit miffed that she insists on defaming James Jamerson, who was pretty much the greatest bass player in pop music ever. This is a man who essentially felt underappreciated for his vast talent and drunk himself into an early grave, and to see that carry on from a peer is a bit disgusting. Like, I bet Carol Kaye wishes she could play like Jamerson! As do most bassists I know.  But what most people seem to take umbrage with is her near-psychotic reactions to any criticism or factual evidence, which are certainly not ok.


Does anyone else find it strange she was saying 'I played the bass on the Sermon on The Mount, wait til this book comes out, you'll see!' with this Wapensky book, which presumably would have used the very same AFM sheets that prove she didn't play bass on all these songs....

In addition, we know that Carol hadn't done a session for the Beach Boys in a while, and that Ron Brown was currently touring with them and on the payroll, and also had a strong Motown background.  I'm pretty sure he actually IS on some WH AFMs, though C-man could confirm that for sure.  Bruce was definitely at the session, so in tending to give Bruce more weight, it's based on the indisputable evidence that he participated in the recording of the track.  For the sake of argument, let's assume it's possible that Carol played on it uncredited.  Even then, she cannot be proved to have been there whereas Bruce can.


I think it's ultimately the unanswerable questions that keep us coming back.  For instance, I've spent the last three years investigating the role of the violone and bass violin in the music of Handel, and I haven't got very far.  And yet, I still find that I can absolutely kill a whole day researching.  Trying new google searches, trying different databases, etc.


Because disappointment rears its head?  As flawed human beings, all of us, we love to complain and attempt some redress of our grievances.  It's almost reflex.  Someone insults you and you hit almost have to hit back, psychologically.  Someone disappoints you, you have to distance yourself from them.

The problem is, Carol is always going to get dragged into these debates, because she has inserted herself so far in them.  If somebody wants to investigate credits for Wild Honey, they must deal with Carol.  

The person who has made the debate over Carol Kaye's recording credits so contentious and nasty is named Carol Kaye.  Arguing in favor of circumspection and benefit of the doubt towards Carol when she has been so consistently vitriolic, it's going to be a tough case to make.

Very well said; I only wish more folks here could discuss these matters in such a diplomatic manner.

I suppose I personally relate 50/50 to the 'historical' side of things as well as some kind of 'magical' element.  I think you're correct in that the mystery keeps things interesting.  I just hear little things like the flubs in Stevie Wonder's version (which Carol has mentioned), and the strikingly similar bass tone on the Beach Boys' version ... and I just can't rule it out.

"I Was Made to Love Her", Stevie Wonder version, was cut in Detroit.  Carol herself says she was never in Detroit but cut all her Motown stuff in LA.  HDH says she didn't play on that track or others that she's claimed to have played on that were all cut in Detroit. Considering they were the producers, they would know and have the final word.  Smokey Robinson, another Motown house producer, says the same thing about Carol not ever playing in Detroit.  That should close that case, period.  It would have been better for Carol if she had said she played on some Detroit sessions.  No one would expect her to produce Xerox copies of old airplane tickets to Detroit and her case would have had a little more potential credibility.  The only possibility is she played on an LA demo for the songs and somehow, some way, those tracks were used as backing tracks instead of the final versions cut in Detroit with all the players in one room (one of whom wasn't Carol).  Again, it stretches credibility, but just trying to be fair to all the Carolmaniacs out there.  It also might explain why she remembers cutting the track for Motown, even if it wasn't the final version (and some people do think she has confused song demos with final tracks, while other Wrecking Crew people said they never played on demos, those that could use the extra money might have)

I guess someone should ask Stevie Wonder.  But you know what Carol's defense would be if he said he didn't "see" her there.

True. We are making informed conjectures based on the available documentary and anecdotal first-hand evidence. Carol, on the other hand, is flatly stating that "I played on these records" when it's been proven she either didn't or couldn't have. Examples:

"Surfin USA" - the only names on the AFM contract (#75997) are Wilson, Wilson, Wilson, Love & Marks. Further, said Marks recalls there being a second drummer, but not a female guitarist (nor Billy Strange, which she also claims).

"Surf City" - no-one called Kaye on the AFM contract (#59093). Names listed are Berry, Blaine, Pohlman, Strange, Pitman, Campbell & Palmer.

"I Was Made To Love Her" (Stevie Wonder) - leaving the whole "recorded in Detroit" thing aside, here's what Carol says about her own playing on this track: "I didn't like the final written riff that I played high up in unison with the horns. You can also hear where I was scuffling a bit with open strings a couple of times". Listen to the song. There are no horns on it.

I believe several of us have uncovered why she thinks she played on BB & J&D hits: in the wake of their success, knockoffs of their hits were swiftly recorded by the likes of the Challengers, the Hot Doggers and so on. I'm willing to bet those are the versions she played on.

I wonder if she may have played on a cover verions or versions either the same year or within a few years of the original Wonder version and got confused as to what version she played on.  Since she was a backing track musician, she might never see the vocalist or hear the final result or anything.  She was just in and out of the studio and on to being in and out of other studios and didn't always remember who she was cutting for or what it was.  There was a 1967 (same year as the Wonder hit) version done by King Curtis.  Not Motown, but a horn player.  Also, a 1970 version done by Jr. Walker, for Motown; again, another horn player.  I'm sure there were other versions of that song done, a lot of them in that era.  Those were two just on the first page of All Music Guide's 227 versions of the song.  It's no excuse for some of her rudeness or insisting it has to be Wonder if it's not, but it would explain why she might "mis-remember" a session she played for that song, even if it was for totally different artists.

It's sad that mrs. Kaye doesn't seem to realize what she is doing to her own reputation. If she just would have admitted that she might not have played on some songs that she thought she did play on, it would have been perfectly fine. Nobody would have blamed her for not remembering exactly what she did or didn't play on, and even minus a few dozen hits, she would still have been that lady who played on more hit singles than Elvis, the Beatles and the Stones combined. But now, she'll be remember as that - and as that crazy old woman who stole other people's credits and refused to accept proven facts. It's really a shame, and I hope that one day she will come to that conclusion herself.

Exactly.

I think everyone who has bothered to read or learn about this case would think the basic, source problem here is that session musicians played a lot of soundalike gigs. Absolutely.

But I wonder if part of it is connected to the fact that Carol doesn't care for most of the pop music of the era, as she repeated time and again in the late 90s, early 2000s. She was all about jazz. So I also wonder if part of this just has to do with her contempt for some of the music itself -- surely fans of this trash (she would think) have no idea about who played on it.

But it wasn't just her.

I bet that if the Wrecking Crew guys had any idea -- in the 60s -- how important the records they played on would become, we would have much better documentation. For that matter, folks like Dennis would probably have spoken up more about their actual contributions, too. Few folks realized at the time -- I bet -- that the LA pop music of the 60s would end up taking such a totemic place in our culture.

I wouldn't count on that.

Brilliant!!

To answer Josh's question, Ron Brown is on a couple of "Wild Honey"-era AFMs, for "Untitled Tune #1" and "Untitled Tune (Part 2)".

Thanks--I thought was the case.  Ah, those beloved old classics, "Untitled Tune no. 1" and "Unitled Tune (part 2)".

Absolutely no disrespect meant to the Wrecking Crew guys, but couldn't it just be that at least some of them, being jazz veterans, were just a bit too "snobby" to realize how great some of the pop music they were working on was? I mean, it's not like they were recording with local indie bands... It seems to me that if you're playing on records that literally sell millions of copies, you shouldn't need a time machine to realize that some of these songs just might turn out to become timeless classics.

And haven't we heard some of these musicians say that they enjoyed working with Brian more?  It's not surprising by the time you hit '65/'66.  The stuff he was cooking up for SMiLE was a bit closer to jazz, more challenging and satisfying to work on for pros like that, I imagine.

Glen Campbell has said that he played on about five sessions of Good Vibrations (that he knows of). He said it during an interview that was filmed for the American Band video. If not that one, it was the "It's OK" NBC special. Can Glen's statement be corroborated?

You know, you could always open your box set and find out!  ;)

Well, maybe. But the Macarena moved a lot of units too. And the pop music of the 50s -- the nearest thing these guys had to compare it to -- was nearly all disposable fluff (who listens to 50s pop today? Besides Brian, I mean).

Me.   I love 50's music, fluff and all.   :)

Me too.

That interview was for the syndicated 20th Anniversary TV Special (1981, with lots of 1980 concert footage from Knebworth and DC).
And no, it can't be corroborated b/c Glen's name is not on any of the "Good Vibrations" AFMs, nor is his voice on, or name referred to, on any of the session tapes.  Same for the rest of the SMiLE sessions.  If he did play on five "Good Vibrations" sessions, the tapes are missing from the vaults, the AFM sheets are missing from the Union and Capitol Records files, and they didn't make it to the final edit anyway.

.

Indeed.

Mea culpa - of course, that should be:

...

Well, color me intrigued. Who told you? Darian?

No - someone who would know.  ;)

Hmmm it's a worry

Yes, that's the one. Been awhile since I saw it - amazing how memory fades in 30 years, isn't it?  ::)


Well, shoot! Did Glen exaggerate then? Is this also a case where a member of the Wrecking Crew claimed that he played on Good Vibrations and really didn't? Did he 'misremember'? Was he lying or did he have a selective memory? Did he really play on a cover version of Good Vibrations? Can he be forgiven for this misrepresentation of himself?

Please see posts about Tedesco, Blaine and Kaye above.  :)

Thanks, C-man.

I've already posted Tommy's reply to the issue, which he'd tweak probably depending on his audience, but think about it like this for a minute: You're *that* session guy who has a career in music spanning decades, you've played on hundreds of "hit" records, and you're traveling around meeting fans at various shows and clinics. Someone approaches you at one of those one-out-of-365 days a year and grabs your hand, saying something like "Hey man, I LOVE that guitar part you played on (...fill in song name here...), I learned that part, that was such an inspiration, thank you!" and all the other hyperbole that fans hurl at these musicians regularly. That's what fans do, I've done it and so has every musician I'm sure.

So that famous session player cannot remember playing that particular song, but in his mind thinks "perhaps I did play that?" because he knows he worked with the artist this fan is talking about, what does he say? Does he act polite to that obviously grateful fan and say "Thanks!", or because he may or may not have played it, does he say "Sir, I don't know what the hell you're talking about, I never played that song, etc..."

This is one way the inaccurate information spreads through the years and snowballs into where some of these cases are today. I'm not saying this is to justify someone insisting something isn't so in spite of factual proof, but let's cut a bit more slack than some might be willing to do when the case warrants it, because do we honestly think these session players can remember each and every day from 4 decades ago when a fan calls them on it?

Again, not to whitewash people who know the facts and insist something is so when it just ain't so, but there are reasons behind some of these issues.

And just as an experiment, with Christmas coming up, I challenge each of you to remember a specific date of December 23, two days before Christmas with all the hustle and bustle, choose a year: 2010, 2005, 1995, 1985, 1975, etc. Now remember something specific about that day in any of those years. Good luck! :)

The issue with this particular theory is that Carol claims to play on several tracks that she doesn't - not just one or two.

This is specifically why I wrote the following, in case you didn't see it in my post: "I'm not saying this is to justify someone insisting something isn't so in spite of factual proof"

And this is definitely not about that specific case with Motown or whatever or any other specific case, but I don't want to see us impugn the words and memories of dozens of musicians who might take the time to have a conversation with a fan they never met before, if they happen to make a mistake. I've personally had it happen, both email and phone conversations with musicians, and I had to shrug some of it off. The bigger picture isn't about remembering exactly what happened February 19, 1965 at 2:37 PM at Gold Star in LA if someone takes the time to talk to a complete stranger and gets a fact or two wrong. That's the scenario I'm talking about, not the Motown stuff.

Or, narrowing it down even further than the December 23 example, try to remember *specific* details from 2 weeks ago today...what were you doing that Tuesday? Try that without the aid of email records, journals, calendars, memos, etc. It's damn near impossible unless you're like the actress Marilu Henner and others who have what amounts to total recall of exact days and events.

I was depressed and eating myself to death, just like I am today.

Regarding her Motown claims, Carol is being called on them by such fans as Brian Dozier, Smokey Robinson and Hank Cosby. I think they know what they're talking about. Thus. (http://www.bassland.net/hc1.htm)

The fans like myself who called her out have two major problems with Ms. Kaye: one, she is claiming credit for sessions she didn't do, and two, she is extraordinarily unpleasant to anyone who attempts to correct her faulty memory (I'm being polite here - I could have as easily said "refute her lies"), as has been shown below.

Let me state again that my post(s) above are not about the Motown situation. I know the facts of that one and it's nothing I want to get involved with. I'm talking about the other studio players not named Glen, Hal, or Carol who we may encounter at some point and ask a question.

You are right, this is definitely the case. They have no way of keeping track of the hundreds of sessions in their memory, and they are constantly being told they played on nearly everything that was a hit song recorded in L.A. during that period. People reel off the classic tunes from the era, and even many documentary filmmakers and authors regurgitate the spiel including some of the newest stuff that's out there. However, we should also think about it like this for a minute...
You're a drummer and founding member of a band. YOU played on the classic Beach Boys versions of Surfer Girl, Catch A Wave, Hawaii, In My Room, Little Deuce Coupe, Don't Worry Baby, Little Saint Nick, Fun Fun Fun, The Warmth Of The Sun, I Get Around, Wendy, All Summer Long, Little Honda, Hushabye, Girls On The Beach, Don't Back Down, Dance Dance Dance, When I Grow Up To Be A Man, I'm So Young, She Knows Me Too Well, Girl Don't Tell Me, You're So Good To Me, That's Not Me, Holidays, Wild Honey, I Can Hear Music,  etc... But 90% of the music aficionados who think they know a little bit about music history assume that someone else was the drummer on all of this stuff. When they hear this stuff on the radio or on TV or in movies they are listening with the thought in mind its that Wrecking Crew genius Hal Blaine playing those classic drums parts because he's an artist and you were only a clubber. And when they comment they say that you got replaced in the studio because you were not good enough. Sure, you were fun to watch in concert...but not skilled enough for the studio. To me the disrespect that Dennis Wilson routinely gets, not by low information fans, but by people who think of themselves as knowledgeable is sickening. ANY drummer would be thrilled to have a fraction of the memorable credits that Dennis should be remembered for, but more often than not he gets zero credit for. To me the point you made vs. this crime in progress do not compare. And I'm not saying YOU were comparing them...but the above is exactly why some of us get a little freaked out when someone like Glen or Hal or Carol take credit for something that wasn't theirs. It spreads like an infection, and in the end you get the constant drip that the Beach Boys were inferior musicians who could not cut it in the studio. I want to be one of the people who turns that perception back towards something closer to the truth.

I agree, and Jon, you deserve a lot of credit and thanks for your efforts in correcting that story and giving Dennis the credit he deserves as a drummer on those classic hits. It's definitely an uphill battle, as proven by the tens of thousands of fans who still, to this day, hang the line "but they didn't play their own instruments" around the necks of the Monkees, which totally discounts their music in a way. Just like saying Dennis wasn't on those studio sessions, it's like casting a shadow on the music and the enjoyment of that music by placing an asterisk next to the song title...and the asterisk shouldn't be there in the first place if people knew the truth. I'm afraid the work will be made much harder be decades of misinformation by those who have told the story in books, film, and the like, as you describe.

Thanks...but don't get me started on the Monkees. Hugest crime in progress is the fact they are not in the Rock Hall of Fame. They should have gone in 20 years ago. The quality of their best stuff ranks with anybody. They were genius on so many levels. And they did it all in two years!

Well three of them should be inducted anyway. Jones can go suck on one.

Fair enough, Denny deserves more credit, but then why do you keep glossing over the not inconsiderable drumming contributions of Jim Gordon, sir?   ;)  Seriously though, he did some fine work for the Boys.  I just realized that's him pounding away on I'm Waiting For The Day.

I agree about the Monkees too.  For me, one of the coolest things about that band was the way they staged their rebellion (largely at Mike's urging) and seized control of their musical destiny on Headquarters (not to mention the subversive self parody of Head!).  Yes, a lot of people still buy the pre-fab myth, but fortunately, the Monkees have a strong and devoted following out there, counteracting the misinformation (as we see on the Hoffman board regularly).

I don't get the Jim Gordon reference...

You are obviously missing the point Mikie!

I'm reporting you to the Moderator.

Thanks...but don't get me started on the Monkees. Hugest crime in progress is the fact they are not in the Rock Hall of Fame. They should have gone in 20 years ago. The quality of their best stuff ranks with anybody. They were genius on so many levels. And they did it all in two years![/quote]

+1

I just thought that it was funny that he kept talking about how Denny's drumming got overlooked in favor of Hal Blaine, but then he didn't mention Gordon's contributions either, which kind of gets back to the point you made earlier.  It seems like some of these musicians (Kaye and Blaine, in particular) have been more successful at preserving their legacy while others get left behind, not because they were inferior players, but due to circumstance, bad luck, etc.

That does make sense, I just wasn't sure but wanted to clarify! Another factor is that some of them were better at the art of self-promotion than others, and may have been bigger personalities than others who may have been more quiet.

Yeah, it is interesting the different sort of categories that have developed.  You have guys like Glen or Leon Russell, who obviously self promoted so much that they became stars in their own right, but Hal could be said to be a star on some level too.  And then Carol, Tedesco, Joe Osborne, Larry Knechtel...they are pretty well known to the average 60s music fan, I should think.

And then you have the guys who were stars in another genre.  Barney Kessel, Howard Roberts--jazz poll winners.

And then, of course, you have what I suppose would just be the "average" studio musician.  Richie Frost or somebody like that.

Plenty of diversity, at least.

 I don't see Jon trying to gloss over Jim Gordon's contributions; all I read is he wants Denny to get the credit he deserves for HIS OWN drumming, which is being lost to Hal.  Jim's credits are an entirely different matter, and while he certainly deserves them, if they ultimately get washed away, I'd ventuire its on account of his actions in the other matter. Just or not, "for every action there's a reaction"

I was just kind of kidding there.  Hell, up until recently, I wasn't even aware of Gordon's contributions with the Beach Boys and was surprised at how prominently he featured in the SMiLE sessions.  I just assumed it was Hal there.

Same here - I was surprised to hear his name mentioned so often during the sessions.

Apart from his notoriety for matricide, I'd say Jim Gordon is mostly recognizable (to music fans) as a member of Derek & The Dominoes, especially given that he wrote the coda to one of the most famous "Classic Rock" tracks of all time. Beyond that, he is known as a session drummer from his 70s work when his credit actually appeared on record sleeves. Given that his work with the Beach Boys was uncredited, I'm not surprised that his contributions are overlooked.

Believe it or not (but totally in keeping with the theme of this thread!), due credit for the 'Layla' coda is itself in dispute.   Rita Coolidge has claimed that Jim Gordon (her ex-boyfriend at the time) actually lifted that piano piece from one of her compositions... and left her off the credits.  I've read that Bobby Whitlock has backed up Rita's claim.

Thread of the year, just read the whole thing

Somebody e-mail the link to Carol

If you like the thread so much then YOU e-mail it to her, Shady!

Ditto from me too!!

Jim Gordon's work with Delaney and Bonnie (and Friends) was just sublime.

I believe that's Jim with Brian in "BW24" on here: http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq306/Dstevenb/ContactSheet-001.jpg

Agreed! That's indeed Jim with the firehat in that Smile photo. His voice is heard on several prominent Smile session tapes that were out even before the box set.

For me, one of his greatest performances is Mason Williams' "Classical Gas". I heard that hundreds of times, always blown away by the drummer, then I found out it was Jim after Hal apparently couldn't make that date and he passed it on to Jim. The way he drives that band, and those drum fills...incredible for a relatively young drummer. That is a terrific performance.

A note on Jim Gordon: I think one should try to separate the art from the artist where possible. We know about Phil Spector, we know about Joe Meek, and there are others. I don't know about the details of Gordon's case, but IIRC he was in a fit of psychosis when he did what he did.

In theory, all of us can fall prey to such an illness. That alone should make us pretty modest in our judgment.

My admiration and love for Spector's work has not diminished one iota after the Clarkson case. And I play 'I Hear A New World' by Joe Meek with pleasure.

On the other hand: should a convicted serial killer release a superb album out of jail... I don't think I'd buy it, or listen. And as far as I know, very, very few people play records by Gary Glitter anymore (which goes for radio stations anyway).

These are matters of pure feeling and instinct, not suitable for rationalizing or categorizing, IMHO.

Manson was an excellent songwriter.

And he's not a serial killer.  ;D

Carol thinks because she played on the movie score sessions for Shaft , that she is on the hit single and soundtrack album. You hear Carol if you watch the movie, but the soundtrack album - including the single - was cut in Memphis with the Bar-Kays. And as far as Herb Alpert goes - I was once told never to bring up the name Ollie Mitchell around him or his admirers.

Is that related to how Herb Alpert always had 2 or 3 guys doubling (or tripling) up his horn parts when he played live?  It'd be funny if that were still a touchy subject somehow.

Please elaborate, I'm not familiar enough with Herb's fan base to know of this backstory. Are there people saying Ollie Mitchell was actually the "voice" of Herb's trumpet on TJB records? Not sure if I buy that any more than the Jamerson stories, but again I don't know anything about those claims until someone points me to the history.

One less controversial reason why they had multiple trumpet players playing live with the TJB was they had to replicate the "sound" of the TJB's doubled and tripled brass. Doubling and tripling those horn lines gave a killer-sounding chorusing effect and *that* was the signature sound, and that sound was more popular than i think many folks today would realize...that brass sound was actually ubiquitous in advertising, jingles, TV themes, etc. If it had been one trumpet playing live, they'd probably get similar complaints that some leveled at The Beach Boys in 66-67 when their live shows sounded thin compared to the fully-orchestrated (and double-tracked) recordings.

I'd seriously like to hear more about this story with Alpert.

If you check out the source of the Herb/Ollie rumors, it turns out that a major source is none other than Carol Kaye. She did apparently play on some Alpert sessions, but I doubt she was there from start to finish.  I also don't think it would necessarily be a sore point to bring up to Herb that there were multiple trumpet players on those Tijuana Brass recordings, or that he had extra trumpeters in concert.  It's not like he hid the extra trumpeters behind curtains so you'd think they were all him.

Carol simply has a problem with pretty much everyone who was actually credited as an artist on a record in the 1960's, and seeks to discredit them any way she can. She is a very, very nasty character, along with being an immense talent on various stringed instruments.

I think it's more a case of "poisoning the well," as they called it in Logic 101 class.  If she can make the case that other people deserve credits that they didn't get and/or that people's memories were faulty after playing hundreds of sessions decades ago, then it makes her case for some of the tracks that she claims that much stronger.

She has claimed, several times and vociferously so, that NO US BAND in the 1960's played their own instruments in the studio. Including The Doors.

I'm giggling. Violently giggling.

GIS'ing "violent giggle" was not as productive as I had hoped, tbh.

Of course not. He was smoking pot in the attic when Fromme and co. did the dirty work. Manson never heard the White Album either.

On a more serious note: I guess we treated the topic well enough by now. Insights and opinions vary, but the reason for ms. Kaye's odd behaviour just eludes us. I think she's seriously harming herself, as well as others (those she insulted, and the wonderful musicians she denies having had to do with some of the finest of popular music). That is tragic.

Oh, one more thing (see my avatar): I find it hard to swallow that she'd not precisely know anymore about who played on truly great achievements from 45 years ago or thereabouts. Numerous sessions that did not go much further than just being tryouts? OK, granted. But major pieces of popular art that became great hits? No. Incroyable!

And what I said in my post was that the multiple trumpeters were the crucial element of the TJB sound. If you were to send Herb out there alone on stage, or even do one take of him playing just his horn on those TJB record sessions, it wouldn't be the sound people bought those records and tickets to hear.

Maybe I'm missing it but if the claim is made that Herb didn't play at all on the records, I'd seriously question that on all counts and probably dismiss it as total nonsense. If the claim is that Herb doubled and tripled his trumpet parts for a reason other than to create the signature sound of the TJ Brass, which was the doubled and tripled brass leads, I'd also dismiss it as total nonsense.

When you had 4 tracks to work with in the mid 60's, and you wanted the sound of three trumpets playing in unison, you'd hire three trumpet players to play the part. Again, I still don't see the controversy.

Quoting Carol Kaye from Spectropop, re Herb and Ollie( which I think shows where some bad blood might sneak in( Oh, Carol!):  

>>Subject:     Herb Alpert-Ventures
Sent:        12/29/18 2:43 am
Received:    01/05/99 12:05 am
From:        Carol Kaye, carolXXXXXXXXlink.net
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

>recall reading somewhere that Herb Alpert sometimes used a
>different trumpet player on some of his peak era TJ Brass
>productions. Did you ever hear anything about that, Carol?

TRUE. We all knew it was Ollie Mitchell, fine #1 call trumpet man
who did the most technical Herb Alpert solos, and when I asked
Ollie (just before he moved back to Hawaii about 1996) "did you
do 'all' of Herb's recorded solos or just some of them Ollie" --
he answered "all, from the Lonely Bull on".

Now, I don't know if he literally meant "every single one" as we
all have a habit of saying "all" meaning "all the important ones",
so not sure if he meant "all" or "most" by that, but he sure
had that sound down pat.

Herb's a nice man, I don't want to take anything away from him,
but too many times, the instrumentalists had others doing their
solos for them. Herb's forte I think was in producing, and
there's no harm done, he did go on the road, but Roy Caton and
others were there to "beef" up the trumpet solos for sure on the
road. <<

Oh, and then found this reference( scroll to the last two posts, at the bottom): 
http://www.amcorner.com/forum/threads/not-herb.2726/page-2

Still is.  His recent stuff is really good.

Did I miss something, or are there any actual "trumpet solos" on TB songs?  I don't think so.  Carol makes it sound like those gosh-darned solos just make those records.  What she points out about Herb's talents are what makes the records, not trumpet solos.

I know i've arrived very late into the thread but am I the only one who finds the name of the song in the title "I Was Made To Love Her" quite ironic considering Carol seems is such a despised person on this board. :lol

Well, I for one didn't think of that.

I'd say 'despised' is not really fitting... that word points more towards some unnatural, shapeless hatred. As AGD pointed out, there are valid and rational reasons to criticize her harshly, and be angry (which applies to people she insulted in person, and publicly so, creating willfully a false profile of said people). Her name still has authority to it, for those that don't see through the false claims and insults.

Her unpredictable ways of communicating and reacting bring harm to herself, in the eyes of people who look a bit deeper into it all. And her false claims are insulting to musicians who cannot respond anymore, because they passed away.

Recent stuff? The most recent stuff I have of his is from the 1980's. WTF am I missing here?

He currently has a 4 part album series coming from Magic Bullet Records.  Check out the East Bound Train mp3: http://www.magicbulletrecords.com/site/discography/mbl138/

Thanks for the clarification on the Herb Alpert situation. Much ado about nothing, which is what I suspected anyway.

It's worth noting something I had posted in another thread months ago: The trumpet solo on The Carpenters' classic single "Close To You". Richard Carpenter had arranged the song with a trumpet solo in mind which would hypothetically sound like what Herb Alpert would play on a Bacharach session. Carpenter wanted to feature Herb's trademark of bending notes a certain way at the end of a phrase...and he's right of course, Herb did have a very unique way of phrasing on the trumpet with those bends, and that is a signature sound of his records.

They didn't hire Herb Alpert to actually play it, so Carpenter auditioned three trumpet players to try out the part, some of the best in LA: Buddy Childers, Chuck Findley, and (drum roll...) *Ollie Mitchell* to play the solo passage. Whoever played it most like Herb Alpert was chosen for the actual take, and then triple-tracked to further match that signature Alpert sound.

Now put it all together, add it all up...if Ollie Mitchell were the real "voice" of Herb Alpert's trumpet on those classic records, he'd be the most likely choice after trying out the part to sound the most like Alpert himself.

But Chuck Findley won the contest and played that part. Carpenter said Findley nailed the sound so well that Bacharach himself, among others, assumed it was Herb Alpert himself playing the solo on the record.

Just an interesting asterisk to the whole saga. :)

Anyone here Facebook friends with her? I got her on my friends list, and some of her status updates are pretty far out.

Yesterday she claimed her bass lines are the most commonly copied bass lines in rap music.

 :lol

AGD was 100% correct in saying this lady is bonkers. :lol

 :angry  :wall  :ahh

I tried to register to her website forum. I was sent an e-mail saying that I would be sent another e-mail telling me if she has given me permission to be a member of her forum. It's been about a week and I still haven't gotten another e-mail telling me if she has given the ok to let me post as a member of her forum.  :brow

Probably checking to see if you've ever shared any forums or emails with me.  :)

The weird thing is that in her forum FAQ, it says that no e-mail will be sent and no permission needs to be given, and you can start post right away. Then I get an e-mail telling me I'm going to be sent an e-mail. I also tried to request a friend add on Facebook, and it told me that she has the maximum amount of friends permitted.  ;D

She has to have seen this thread by now. The emails the administrators of this site are going to get..... Such a stern yelling at.

Some of the FAQ text is over a decade old - "There will be a well-researched book out by the end of this year ('99) by Russ Wapensky, a highly-regarded meticulous researcher who has spent years in not only interviewing the LA studio musicians, but is also the most-trusted researcher over the years of our Musicians' Union recording contracts (which our pensions and re-uses are based off of, the best written records of accurate records of studio musician credits, along with our personal logs and app't books). His book will be out on Greenwood Press about our studio musician credits 1945-69, and is almost finished now." - and evidently not updated.

BTW, I've very recently discovered that a couple of years ago, Carol had her house repossessed: irrespective of the controversy surrounding her and any personal feelings thus engendered, that's a horrible thing to have happen to you (been there) and she has my sympathy, especially at her time of life. I hope something was sorted out.

No wonder then that so many famous rap artists got shot.

It's wrong, I know I shouldn't... but that made me laugh out loud.

Shame I had a mouthful of tea...

Hi AGD -

I had some misgivings when writing it, but it just was an opportunity I couldn't pass up...

Please guys be nice.... this artist inspired Straight Outta Compton

Inspired??... did you know that she actually plays on it?

Carol played banjo on "Cabinessence". Quit hating on her.

She was tight with the late Easy E -  They were out together one night and  they came up with F**K Tha Police

Until they had a falling out and Ice Cube wrote 'A Bitch Iz a Bitch'

No one in their right minds would deny her incredible contributions.  Too bad she insists on taking credit that belongs to others and trashing those that try to set the record straight.

To be fair, she DID play on Dr. Dre's "The Next Episode."  In a way.

not sure if its been mentioned yet but Dr. Dre started his career in music as a member of the World Class Wreckin' Crew

strange coincidence?

That second sentence sounds like it's ripped directly out of the Myke Luhv playbook.  :3d

Get Bill working on it, he'll find more connections and coincidences than you ever thought possible.  ;D

Did you know that Chuck D. at age 4 led a rap troupe called Public Zenemy?

You didn't.