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Something significant happened with the BB after Friends. I've done a search regarding this subject but haven't been able to find a lot of discussion about it.

Friends seems to be the last "Brian" album until the "comeback" period. The group takeover truly begins, for the first time, with 20/20. The question is, why?

Brian seems to be really stepping back into the fold with Friends. The arrangements are becoming more elaborate again, and he's starting to engage more with the Wrecking crew. That leads us into the early sessions for the followup to Friends, which are very interesting. Brian is still actively composing and arranging great tracks like Ol' Man River, We're Together Again, Sail Plane Song and Walk On By. I just love this material but ultimately none of it makes it on the next album, although if I recall correctly, Do It Again is also started during this time.

Then, suddenly the sessions go in a completely different direction with I Can Hear Music, Bluebirds, All I Want to Do, etc etc. Brian seems to have very little to do with any of this.

What happened? Did Brian voluntarily step back after the poor chart placing of Friends, or was there a group intervention? The Carlin book refers to Mike Love making disparaging comments about Brian's "obsessive" work on Ol' Man River, telling him that the group didn't want to work on it anymore. That event seems to still sting for Brian, even today.

I'd love to read some insights on this fascinating period when Brian *really* seemed to step down, and the group asserted creative control.

Interesting Point. Maybe it had something to do with the arrive of his kids?? (Not a bad thing but maybe he stepped back into his new family).
Or the start of his hard drug use (a bad thing of course!!) Or When the Beach Boys was trying to find a new record deal, and Brian didn't wanna know or care to carry on??.

There was a lack of commercial success, the downward trend exacerbating, which hurt him, and an increase in mental health issues.

The rest of the band pitched it in with what they had for 20/20, then really took the reins with Sunflower.

I so wish that Brian had access to all the good drugs and help that we have today to help his Mental Health issues. But its so easy to look back in hindsight :(

To me, Brian didn't seem to push himself in a more commercial direction. Sales of SS, WH, and Friends were not amounting to anything near what they used to be prior to this period. Record Labels want hits. Capitol, and later Warner's gave the Beach Boys fits for lack of good singles material. I think the band took their careers in their own hands, and tried to do what Brian was not willing or couldn't do for them; make them a viable, relevant rock band again, at least here in the U.S..

didn't Murry sell the publishing in 1969? that must have had a huge effect.

also I think Brian was committed to an institution for a short time in '69 or so. I read somewhere that he was never quite the same after being given Thorazine.

seems like he was pretty enthusiastic and involved in the making of Sunflower though. I think the real downward turn came after that.

This was my first thought too since it seems like it was a big blow - particularly based on things that Marilyn has said. But as the original post does point out, Brian really does seem to pull away sometime after June of 1968, which does happen to be when the Friends LP is released.

It was sometime between the recording of Friends and 20/20 , that Brian started using cocaine. Which might have had a lot to do with it, then again it might not. There a plenty of albums out there where the people making them are clearly coked out of their minds. Their usually (but not always) not very good though.

Summer of '68, which sits nicely between the Friends and 20/20 sessions.

Agreed, but here is the exception that tests the rule: Sgt. Peppers.

Very interesting topic.

I've heard about the Thorazine thing before and if this is indeed true it is genuinely heartbreaking.

Personally I think the big change was that after Friends, Brian obviously didn't oversee the creative process anymore in terms of making albums. He still wrote lots of new material for the group but 20/20 clearly wasn't his baby.

(That said, do we know whether he was involved in sequencing Sunflower? Never heard anything about that.)

Wasn't there also a big blowup over his production of "Time to Get Alone" for Redwood in mid-'68?

I was gonna say the institutionalization too.  My understanding is that's exactly what happened:  Brian starts getting back in the studio, then breakdown, commitment, then the band takes over.  Never the same after that.  I wasn't aware of the Thorazine angle though.  Forgive my ignorance, but what are the specific effects of that drug?

It use to be used to control mental patients and for schizophrenics. It alters brain chemistry. It's also an elephant tranquilizer.

Thorazine was the first anti-psychotic. Side effects include sedation and amnesia.

Thelonious Monk was also given Thorazine which seemed to drastically decrease his creative output in the 60s

BW wanted to quit BB at the time and become a producer. Darlin was written for another band but the band woulnd't allow BW to give the song to another act. He hated BB and I think this was during the time when they were recording in BW's house while BW was hiding in a corner of the house.

I occasionally wish the group would've splintered in the late 60s. Only occasionally, though, as I'm such a huge fan and am even glad that they still exist in 2011 in some form.

But still, we can't even know half of some of the ugliness that went on between these guys and even in their own lives and minds, and it feels like a fair amount could've been avoided if they'd went their own way when things got especially bad. Some of this stuff just genuinely bums me out to read. It's fascinating, it's interesting, I want to know it as a fan, but damn. :\

At the same time, though, maybe the band breaking up in the late 60s would've ensured Brian becoming complacent and unproductive even sooner, and maybe the band still existing actually kept him alive in that sense. Who knows?

I think the band was still capable of working together until 1977 or so. As the Bill Hinche 1974 dvd shows, they were still getting along ok for the most part. In 1976, they were sort of united behind Brian and his return, but they soon began to tug at him from two directions. Dennis and Carl on the artistic, free drug taking side and Mike and Al on the commercial/nestolgic and meditator clean living side. I read that there was a big fight over Brian that nearly led to the band braking up. Perhaps that would've been the best time. After that, the music became uninspired for the most part.

I think the total commercial failure of Friends was the final nail in the coffin. But, there plenty of nails before it.

yes he had plans to give it to redwood and the boys became angry with this and they made him keep it for them . brian was even crying say he had to give it to them because they were his family.

Wasn't the "they cornered Brian, who was crying" story confirmed to be BS a while back? Or am I thinking of something else?

Isn't that Chuck Negron's story of what happened? I don't believe the story was ever corroborated.

In my humble estimation, the commercial failure of Holland was the final nail in the coffin. After that they had little ambition other than to make money.

Holland did ok with sales and garnered quite a bit of critical praise. The commercial success of Endless Summer and the concert crowd may have stymied ambition in that era. With the huge turn toward nostalgia around 1973, people didn't want to hear anything but their back catalog from that point on. It was a shame, because they worked hard to get back in good graces with the U.S. fan base, and by 1973-74 that success came back to bite them on the creative side of things.

One thing I don't get about the commercial failure of Friends and Sunflower is how did these records not sell while The Carpenters did? It's fairly obvious that not only the gruffest of rock groups could sell large amounts of records at that point in time when even the Ohio Express could make it big.

That said, I wasn't even born by then so it's hard for me to put myself in the position of a 1968/1970 record buyer.

As I remember Steve Desper described it as what he saw as a process of Brian recognizing that the rest of the band had talents too. Something like that. It used to be archived under Desper on Mike Wheeler's board Cabinessence. I suppose someone could ask him on his child board.

Except he( desper) doesn't like to post on Smiley any more; the programming here is evidently not compatible with his computer and makes it intensely laborious for him.

iirc Desper mentioned the time Brian worked on Break Away as something like a return of the old Brian and that everyone stood behind him. But then it bombed....

I think that Brian was satisfied with 'Friends' and let the rest of the group carry on, helping them out here and there.  The man deserved a break and had made most of his major statements by that time.  Brian has stated more than once that 'Friends' was his favorite Beach Boys album, and has also noted that it was the first record that didn't have any mistakes.

Someone could ask him privately.

That a really interesting question, but my gut feeling is that the Carpenters were already kind of an anomaly in their time period.  They were part of a much more heavily groomed, whitebread cookie cutter AM radio world that was already kind of vanishing...they were being pitched to the "silent majority", not the heads.  The Beach Boys for good or ill followed the FM-radio "rock cred" path, however poorly it treated them, but they probably didn't feel like they had any other options, since by then Dennis & Carl were waking up artistically and more and more interested in following their own path.

Nowadays the Carpenters pop craftsmanship is well recognized, and rightly so, but they were anything but hip at the time.  For the Beach Boys to have followed that path, you have to imagine them clean-shaven, coiffed like 1964, and still wearing the striped shirts well into the 70s.  I'll be Murry would have been more than happy to keep them going in that direction!

The Beach Boys being clean cut in the 1970s with striped shirts is a truly scary idea.

I think the Beach Boys looking the way they did in the 70s was scary enough in itself , i.e. Mike Love

I think in some ways there is a similarity between the BBs and Pink Floyd. Although, commercially it was the opposite. You had the era where Syd Barrett was the leader of the band. But he soon drifted away and the rest of the group took over. Although the commercial success was reversed. With Pink Floyd they became much bigger after Syd Barrett was gone.

And worlds upon worlds worse, where as the other guys in teh beach boiz, with a bit of Brian's help as an adhesive agent of some sorts, managed to keep it together (albeit not with much commercial success).

They still made good albums after Friends! 20/20 , Sunflower , Surf's Up, Holland and Love You are all good!!! And Friends wasn't the last BW album, he was very much involved with Sunflower and Love You; maybe not so much on 20/20, Surf's Up and Holland (sept Sailor & Funky Pretty),,, By the mid 70s it didn't even matter anyway- all bands have their issues and especially a super-group like the Beach Boys. I don't get why I always see people bitching bout their struggles and Brian going crazy or whatever, who the f*** cares?? The important thing bout them is their astonishing legacy and phenomenal body of music. The mid 70s onward belonged to the Ramones and the re-emergence of rock n' roll thru punk; and the Ramones owe everything to the Beach Boys. Even though the Beach Boys after Love You you didn't make another landmark album it doesn't matter!!! No group in history has made as many great records, not even the goshdarn Beatles, I don't care what anyone says.

I love the Syd Barrett era. But in my opinion, Dark Side of the Moon was their best album. No need to argue about it, these are just opinions.

I know = ) I just enjoy mentioning my fondness of the Syd era and my lack of fondness of everything after it for the sole purpose of baffling people. It's a good time. Or maybe it isn't.

According to Gaines in H&V it was commercial failure, and looking and the chart performance it looks like it. Great point about the nostalgia factor though!

I also found it interesting that post-Pet Sounds, Add some music and Sail on Sailor were BB's two most anticipated and promoted singles and they both underperformed. So basically the labels put all their strenght behind the songs.

So I sit and listen to these two songs and try to figure out what's wrong with them. Sail on Sailor was FM-rock but FM-Rock stations would never play BB, not in a hundred years. With Add some music it's probably more to do with the song itself.

I wish that someone other than Blondie sang lead on SOS. Live it would be really cool, but for the album-no. It loses that Beach Boys vox blend. So sad considering how awesome of a song it is.

I also love the Syd era. I like most of the sixties and seventies stuff without him too, but not nearly to the same degree. They were all fairly unquie musicians, but Syd had a special quality that made you feel good. Nobody wrote or played like him, he was a true original.

Brian after Friends wanted to be a part of The Beach Boys but not completely in charge. At least through Surf's Up he had a lot of say in the music and relationships were solid. After mid 1971 he lost some interest, for many reasons, but for a time him the group dynamic worked with him being a contributer as opposed to a leader. Sometimes he resented the change, other times he welcomed it. Being deaf in one ear as stereo became a requirement didn't help at all, and yes I agree that he didn't want to stifle the others. The Desper era was a happy time in many ways, as much as he did have periods where he wasn't running full throttle, I still feel he was better then than anytime since.

Better check that "hundred years" thing again-Sunflower, SU, and Holland all garnered major FM airplay in this market-I was very pleased indeed.

I can't speak for Sunflower, but Surf's Up got some air play here in Philly on WMMR, and CATP and Holland received decent air play on KDKB in Phoenix. Even cuts from In Concert were played on KDKB. Holland got into the mid-30's on the U.S. charts, so it did ok, not great, but not bad, either.

I just wish classic rock stations nowadays would play some BBs every now and then. Just throw on some Marcella, SOS, or Trader on between the endless repeats of Zeppelin, Boston, ZZ Top, Foreigner, Journey, and the Stones.

They do.  You just have to listen to the right stations.  Try Serius/XM radio. Deep Tracks, Underground Garage, and the other Classic station. The Loft played a live version Saturday of Good Vibrations that I don't think I've heard before. Outstanding version.

Ed Sciaky(RIP), Micheal Tearson(now on Sirrius-XM), Luke O'Reilly, and others on 'MMR were all into the band. Ed played Dierdre, IAT, ASM, TITM, and CCW from Sunflower consistantly. SU programming included FF, DGNTW, SDT, and TID. In fact, Tearson played the entire SU album the day of it's release at midnight. Needless to say, I had the Tandberg rolling. CATP  got very little attention with Holland doing well with SOS, LTT, FP, Trader, and Steamboat. After that, the only current cut that got any airplay was ACH on 'IOQ courtesy of Mike Tozzi.

In the past three weeks I've heard stuff from the new Smile set - mainly Heroes & Villains and Vegetables and Surf's Up on Little Steven's Underground Garage. Steven Van Zandt is a big Brian/Beach Boys fan as are the other DJ's like Andrew Loog Oldham (Stones producer) and Hansome Dick Manitoba. Tom Petty plays 70's Beach Boys on his show on Deep Tracks. I've heard Sail On Sailor and Marcella and Feel Flows on Deep Tracks.

Yeah, when I moved back to Philly in early 1980, Sciaky, Tozzi and company at WIOQ played The Beach Boys a lot. L.A., KTSA and Carl's first solo album all got decent airplay from all the jocks there. Even in 1985 they debuted that album and played a few cuts from it over the next few months.

I believe Brian had locked himself in his room by 1971 and was doing very little studio work. Maybe it was the drugs, thorazine or whatever but he was not active in many ways. I always thought Brian had done alot of work up until Sunflower, with the band pitching in for Sunflower and 20/20 but they were still overwhelmingly Brian records, with just less creative influence from Brian. Carl and the Passions and SU only had a few tracks with Brians involvement from what I have read.

1971 he was fairly active during Surf's Up and the early stages of Spring. 1972 was really when he was not there more than he was there in the studio. I was surprised by that too, but Desper makes it clear in his book that Brian took an interest in 1971 though he wasn't writing as much as before. This was confirmed by Desper and listening to the Surf's Up LP. He plays on most of the tracks, and sings on them too. SDT and LAT are the only ones he didn't do much if anything at all.

Same here. My local classic rock station played "Dance, Dance, Dance" once, but that's it. My local oldies station is a bit better; I've heard them play "Darlin'" and "Heroes And Villians".

NO WAY BRAAHHH WHERE TEH GUITAW SOWOSS BRAHHH GEETAR CLLASIC ROCK IN THE MORNIN BEFORE WORK GUITARS YEAHHHHHH BRAAAHHHHH DEDEDEeeEDEDE GUITAW SOWOS ROCK AND ROLLLLLL

Finally, someone said what we are all thinking! Everyone follow me to the Foghat message board and leave this p*ssy Beach Boys sh*t behind!

"GEETAR CLLASIC ROCK IN THE MORNIN BEFORE WORK" - I think this sums up what makes me intensely dislike "classic rock radio," along with the fact that they are working from a pool of about 85 songs that they play over and over.

You guys are burying me here (in call letters) . How come SOS only reached #79 if it was so god damned popular on progressive rock stations?  :)