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Sorry if this has been discussed before but when was the point of no return for Dennis.... I'm going to say after 1979 when Brother studios and his Yacht was taken from him. Very sad subject I know but so many things went wrong in Dennis's life esp toward the end. I wish he was satill around now to see Smile being sold in the shops. Dennis was a big supporter of Smile and Brian in his life. Much love Denny :)

He was never the same after Murry died. Same goes for Brian. The real downhill slope started late 1978.

Hmmm...interesting. Do you think it's because they both had unresolved issues with him that they never got to clear up (and probably wouldn't have even if he lived for another 20 years).

Murry died in 1973? Was that one of the reasons why there wasn't any Beach Boys album between 73-76?

One of them, I'd say.

Yep, like I've always said...they started sounding different, acting different, and overdoing the naughty stuff BIG time after Murry's death.  Note how Carl, who had it much "easier" than the other two in the Murry dept., managed to remain relatively "sane" and was basically still the same guy. 

Carl Wilson was doing Smack and drinking heavily in 1978.  That ain't sane!  

And Brian was doing coke as far back as 1968. If anything, his intake increased a little after Murry's death, but he was already in the drugs big time before Murry checked out. And Dennis was drinking his head off and smoking pot years before Murry died. Ask Daryl Dragon and Greg Jacobsen!

Murry's death may have temporarily  exacerbated an already serious drug habit amongst the Wilson brothers, but I never really bought into Murry's demise really causing his family members to go DOWN HILL any further than they were already headed. In 1974 they were doing stuff at the Guercio Ranch and still writing songs and were on the upsurge in popularity with Endless Summer and SOA. 1976, same deal.  But agree 1978 was the beginning of the end for Dennis, and almost Brian, and almost Carl if he hadn't bounced back so quickly!

And Carl, the baby of the family, was the only one of the 3 brothers to attend Murry's funeral.

1977-1978 was not typical Carl; the years before & after, by all accounts, were.  Audree was quoted in the Leaf book (written in '77, published in '78) as saying "Carl was born 30".  That pretty much sums it up.  We're talking three kids from a dysfunctional family who became rock stars in their teens, so compared to most of us, they're atypical, but within that context, Carl remained pretty normal, while Brian and Dennis, even though they exhibited crazy behavior from the mid-sixites "drug era" on, REALLY hit rock bottom after Murry's death:  and like I've said before, it seems to me that they tried to allow Murry to live on in them by (subconciously, I'm sure) adopting some of his gruff, macho persona.  The Brian and Dennis of the late '70s-early '80s were drastically different guys compared to the Brian and Dennis of Murry's lifetime, whereas Carl remained pretty much the same, his 18 month bender aside.

It should be noted that after a somewhat lost and inebriated '73, that Dennis had a bit of an upswing from mid '74 through '76, especially in his studio productivity which was prolific...and there were also sporadic periods of "healthy" living in those years... which beginning in '77 were a permanent thing of the past.

This is what I don't understand about Dennis. He had a period of seemingly intense productivity for two or three years, and suddenly something changed. John, you've said in the past that by 1979-ish, Dennis never really regained control for more than just a few days at a time. Was there something specific between 1977 to 1979 that happened to Dennis? It just seems to me that it happened quite suddenly, somewhere between 1978 and 1979. Was it losing Brother Studios? Losing the support of his brother Carl? The death of Billy Hinsche's dad?

Losing the boat, the studio, the band, and most importantly....control of himself.

I wonder, what did Dennis think about Carl's brief bout with drugs and alcohol? Did he try to help Carl out at all? Or did they become drinking and drug buddies, like Dennis and Brian? Carl was always the "stable" one, so I'm just wondering how Dennis(or Brian) took it. I know that the Australian tour of 1978 was the infamous "Heroin bust up" involving Carl.

And his marriage. Twice.

I firmly believe there's never a point of no return, so his wasn't until he ran out of air. 

Poor Denny, nearly the 28th anniversary

What made Carl turn his life back around after 1978? He seemed to quickly clean himself up after that. Did he continue to have some kind of drug/drink problem after? Especially with Dennis dying?

The main reason for Carl's slide to the dark side was the breakdown of his marriage.  Falling down drunk/stoned at that show in Australia may have been the turning point for him.  Maybe that and seeing how bad things were getting for his two brothers.  See, that's why I maintain that Carl stayed basically "sane":  a sane person who momentarily loses control can bounce back much easier than someone who is deeply, permanently scarred.

Thanks for the insight.

Glad you got something out of it.  Notice Brian was much worse off than Dennis, but by all sources has 'returned'.  By the way, you're a asshole, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop posting in threads I've posted in. 

(http://www.worldwrestlinginsanity.com/am2/uploads/1/ronsimmons3.jpg)

JEEZ..!!!

They just became drinking buddies - I believe that's why there's a lot of Carl on the 'solo' Wilson (both Brian and Dennis) material of the period.

SCORCH!  ;D

Jon will know much more about this, but I seem to recall reading about a major showdown occurring at an airport in 1977, when the band almost broke up for good. This seemed to be a pivotal time for Dennis and Carl. It all came to a head regarding the drug use within the band and/or the future musical approach, with Mike and Al advocating looking backward following the success of Endless Summer and 15 Big Ones, and Dennis and Carl wishing to continue forward creatively from where Holland left off. Brian was busy being caught in the middle and was fairly useless; a pawn, but perhaps a knowing and willful one. Judging by Dennis's comments about the MIU album, I think the direction of the band from that crisis point onward was deeply frustrating and when you consider the restrictions that were reportedly imposed upon him regarding his future solo career, events seemed to drain all  the creative inspiration that had previously fueled him. There were of course many other factors in Dennis' downfall, but the musical state of the band following 1977 has to be factored into the equation.

:(

That's right... Sept. 1 1977 after their Central Park NY concert. The ensuing months became ugly

I believe a Rolling Stone reporter saw it all go down and his thoughts were detailed in the Peter Ames Carlin book.

Chiming in here...I've heard it said by those whose opinions I respect that the tipping point may well have been when Dennis was forced to choose between staying with the group or going on the solo tour for his album.  This dovetails with what else that Jon and others have said upthread.

So, as AGD said, from 1978 on.

I forgot that the infamous fight happened after the Central Park show. That's interesting, considering that Carl is noticeably "altered" on the recording of that show.

Makes sense to me too. That no matter how much effort, genius etc... he put into his solo stuff, he would never have the full support of the BBs. This happened to Brian too. What a f*cked up group dynamic that was.

I agree with others that Murry's death was a factor. It seems like Dennis was trying to make peace – calling Murry during the fights and trying to get closer to him – and almost got there, but never quite made it. Skipping the funeral showed he wasn't able to come to grips with Murry's life OR death.

The fact that Dennis often spoke about Murry in his awful, final days in 1983 showed that he could never deal with it. Some therapy in 1973 might have done wonders from Dennis.

The 1977 blowup, the ultimatum about not touring for his solo album and the sale of Brother Studios all added to the slide, and I think the Rocky-Stan beating might have been the final straw. On the Knebworth show, Dennis still has a tremendous spark. I love the interplay between Dennis and Mike Meros on "Surfer Girl."

That beating, and the heatbreaking "I got beat up for $300" quote took a lot out of him, I think.

If I'd had been in Dennis's shoes I would have said "screw it"  and gone solo when the ultimatum was given after POB. Frankly the Beach Boys needed him more then he did them by this point.

There were other factors that played into Dennis' decision to cancel the tour...I'm not saying the ultimatum wasn't a big one, but I think there's a very good chance it wouldn't have happened even if it weren't for that.  Michael Andreas, who led the BBs horn section and helped Dennis put together the band for the POB tour, told me that Dennis was very upset with the record label b/c they refused to support (financially) a string section for the tour, and he says that's when Dennis decided to scrub it.  But he also believes that, as the tour dates got closer & the rehearsals kicked into high gear, the reality of carrying the whole load of a performing solo career on his shoulders caused Dennis to get cold feet (Andreas kind of implies that Dennis used the refusal of CBS to fund the string section as an excuse to back out of the tour).  And, let's face it, in late '77 Dennis was in dire straights financially and needed the income from the Beach Boys tours.   So, there were many factors coming down on him at once...I hope ALL of that makes it into the movie, instead of a one-dimensional portrayal of events. 

There was a certain book published 11 years ago that said this...
During the late fall of 1977 dates had been announced for a short Dennis Wilson solo tour.  Venues such as the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion and other concert halls of a medium size were booked.  “I’m starting my own concert career,” said Dennis.  “My first date is in November in New York.  I’ll be touring with a small orchestra.  I’ll be doing about 10 cities.”  Dennis then added, “If I’m not with the group, I’ll do more,” hinting at the possibility of leaving the Beach Boys.  The press releases revealed a 22 piece orchestra would back Dennis and that Ricci Martin would be the opening act.  It was also reported that Carl, Bruce, and Brian might be involved in some of these dates.  Soon after this announcement was made, predictable conflicts arose within the Beach Boys camp.  Some members of the band were very unhappy at the prospect of Dennis striking out on his own.  There were arguments that Dennis’ plans were too expensive.  A member of the Beach Boys touring band explained, “He wanted a big setting, lots of horns, strings, and I think the record company wasn’t willing to go that far in terms of expenditures”.  Dennis gracefully canceled his dates saying a commitment with the band made it impossible for him to complete his plans.  He promised he would reschedule the shows in the coming months.  Of course he did not, and soon the possibility of a Dennis Wilson solo tour had vanished forever.

I disagree.  This is probably the point that Dennis became a burdon - (will he show or won't he show and iof he does show will he be sober).

In my mind 1977 and 1978 are the nadir of the Beach Boys.  I have always blamed Mike for this but I wonder if that is fair.  Carl's condition had turned him from the lynchpin of the band to a liability.  Brian was an onstage disaster (I witnessed this in Providence where Brian took a run at Dennis after Dennis unplugged Brian's piano because Brian wasn't playing the right song - I thought it was the Kinks) and Dennis was not reliable.

It seemed like Dennis and Carl were giving up.

You know, there was such a myriad of contributing factors, most of which have been mentioned here.  One of the amazing features he possessed was the ability to bounce back from absolutely anything, including almost severing two different limbs, only to defy all odds by coming back to pound the drums & piano the way he did pretty much right to the end...
The thing is, it was hard, right until the last few months or so, to not expect that he'd bounce back yet again - hell, look at Brian!  And I disagree, Jon, about "...there were also sporadic periods of "healthy" living in those years... beginning in '77 were a permanent thing of the past".  There were always spurts, and he did make some veiled attempts...  But it was so easy to see that spark in his eyes, and believe that anything was possible...

I think Dennis and Carl DID give up...in the sense that there was this big comeback in the mid '70s, this big build, and then when it finally all comes to fruition in '86, look what happened.  15 BIG ONES clearly wasn't what they wanted.  And then to see how the whole thing was starting to play out after that...well, who could blame them?  They were both kind of trapped in something they couldn't get behind.

The whole Beach Boys dynamic is something so colossal in their lives, though - it's the only environment they knew. It's family, it's been that way for the last 15 years and you never knew anything else, so it's everything.

Adam, what you mention so clearly relates to Brian - those guys loved their big brother, and for him to essentially check out on 15BO must have been heartbreaking, and whilst they obviously supported what he did - their presence on Love You and Adult/Child (and the Cocaine Sessions, to whit) bears that out - I imagine Brian's problems were also a worrying influence. I mean, these are fifties nuclear families. Mental illness doesn't factor.

I'm not really making sense, i guess.

Before Dennis dove into the water that last time, do you think he knew? Sorry to be so blunt, but it's something I've been thinking about lately.

It seems to me that the True and final "point of no return" was the superbowl sunday beating. Damn it, I hate that Rocky Pamplin creep. If I ever saw him...let's just say that it wouldn't end well.

Just to add a personal note here ... nothing is preordained until it is.

My mother died this summer, unexpectedly, at the age of 58. She had been sick for a long time -- but not with what ultimately took her life. Her fatal illness was a side effect, a linked condition, that happened totally by chance.

Now, I look back and wonder -- was this just what was meant to be? She had been fighting this chronic illness for decades, after all. But she also might still be alive if this side effect had been addressed sooner. And not sooner by a matter of months or years. I mean sooner by a matter of hours.

And thus it is with Dennis. We can say it was inevitable. And it was, because he did end up losing his life. But it wasn't, because drowning isn't preordained. And if someone had pulled him out of the water a few minutes after he went in, his life wouldn't have ended that way.

We tell ourselves stories to snatch order from chaos. Death never makes sense. But we have to live with it somehow.

Post of the decade.

Great post indeed.

A lot of great replies in this thread, but there is something that hit me. Was one of Denny's come back/sobering moments because of the dive Carl took? We hear them in the Australian tour where it seemed Dennis was in CONTROL (compared to CW) when Carl was out and about. Is this because "he wanted to be clean" or because he saw his brother's state and didn't want to see him do the same self-destructiveness that he and Brian went through/are going through.

I believe Dennis would have bounced back ... it was an accidental drowning.  I can see him in my mind today.

I totally forgot about this until your post, but there is an interesting scene in the Melbourne video that circulates from the Australian tour. Carl tells everybody to get Dennis's solo album, and Dennis says something like "He(Carl) got it for free". Carl then says "That's bullsh*T", and Dennis reacts with shock, and then whispers something in Carl's ear.

I'm not so sure. By the accounts I've heard and read, Dennis was really bad in the last few months of 1983. If he hadn't had that drowning accident, he probably wouldn't have made it much longer. It's sad to say, but I think it's true. I don't think he would have lived to see something like Live Aid, some 18 months later, for example.

I find it hard to believe he expected the record company to fund a string section for an entire tour.  Really?  Not even Brian had that kind of hubris. 

To be fair, Brian was really bad during the early 80s as well, perhaps even worse in some ways. You can't predict out what ifs, and it's very possible Dennis could've rebounded and gotten the help he needed.

There are those who believe it wasn't entirely accidental, more the result of someone who just wanted some rest and peace at any cost.

When the news of his death was released I thought that Manson's family were behind it.

I'm not gonna say the obvious...  ;)

I agree, and that was my point, it wasn't too late to turn around until he ran out of breath and couldn't make it to the surface.  Brian was even worse off (arguably) and he turned it around.  People shouldn't be given up on, and they especially shouldn't give up on themselves.  I don't think everyone had given up on Dennis and I don't even thik he had given up on himself.  He would have bounced back. 

Except that he didn't bounce back, and he did give up. Which is why he's not been around for some 28 years.

That last sentence implies that Brian is still living a self-destructive lifestyle. Am I reading it correctly?

I might have asked this question before, I can't remember at the moment. When Dennis was finally found in the water, did he have any kind of head wound, or any indication of an injury?

AGD state the 'obvious' if you wish. I think that 28 years ago you may have been more naive about the BB world like I was.

This was kind of what I was going for with the "insightful" comment. Sorry, wasn't trying to piss you off, but I initially interpreted it as the typically cold "no exceptions" sentiment toward mental health, the idea that it's mostly self-inflicted and people choose to have the problems they do.

Brian supposedly being "worse off" doesn't necessarily mean anything. We're talking two entirely different people here, and one person who had it pretty badly's bouncing back doesn't necessarily mean someone else, even his brother, is capable of the same. Everyone is different.

Sad as it is to say, I do believe some folks are beyond help. I don't know if Dennis was or wasn't, it's not my place to say. Brian's still alive, I'm extremely grateful for that (as I'm sure he ultimately is, too), but the definition of "turned around" becomes a bit murky in instances like his. I think he's the only one who truly knows if he did, but I don't think most people are even up to facing such an overwhelming concept. Basically, some folks just survive and others surive and really do manage to turn things around. To some folks, merely surviving isn't worth their time and effort (to them, that is).

But anyway. You're all alive! The sun is shining, the world is yours, etc. etc. etc. = )

Barbara said that she felt Dennis had died long before his body did.

I never met the guy but it seems like he was always looking for a way to find peace. A way to get away from himself. Whether it be music, getting f***ed up, etc. He's lucky he got to live as long as he did, a lot of addicts don't.

There are those who say Dennis isn't dead, he'll live forever through his songs. And that's the way I see it. A friend who's always there even though he's gone.

Yes, there was a head gash, but how recent is the question.  Hal Blaine, who was at a nearby boat & heard the distress call, believes DW hit his head on something while resurfacing and drowned unconscious.  Others believe the wound wasn't so fresh and Dennis was conscious until he drowned.  I'm not sure if the coroner was able to decide how recent the bruise was.

Yes, there was a head gash, but how recent is the question.  Hal Blaine, who was at a nearby boat & heard the distress call, believes DW hit his head on something while resurfacing and drowned unconscious.  Others believe the wound wasn't so fresh and Dennis was conscious until he drowned.  I'm not sure if the coroner was able to decide how recent the bruise was.
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They'd be able to tell.  Look at the Natalie Wood case, where it was proved she drowned, even though she had a gash on her head.  Or even watch a few Columbo episodes.  Since drowning was the cause of death, he was conscious, or they would have put that in the report.  People were watching him dive in and he didn't come back to the surface.   It just happened.  He was extremely drunk at the time, too.

I think people who really believe that Dennis would have turned his life around and lived as long as Brian don't understand alcoholism or how bad Dennis had it.  He was already a physical wreck and I'm sure his liver and other things were shot.  It was hard for him to stop drinking because he had DT's whenever he'd try to stop.  He had those so bad he had seizures.  Withdrawal from alcohol is more dangerous than heroin withdrawal so even stopping drinking could have been dangerous for him.  I don't think Brian was ever an alcoholic, though he was a binge drinker.  

I think bottom line, Dennis knew, or believed, that he was screwed at that point.  So it almost doesn't matter whether he consciously or unconsciously committed suicide.  I don't get the feeling the guy was fighting for his life.

I'm with Hal Blaine on the explanation. It happens all the time to un-skilled divers under boats and objects. No, the mere fact Dennis was retreiving his old artifacts from the bottom tells me he still wanted to live. It was an accident.

If he weren't extremely drunk at the time, it may not have occurred to him to dive into freezing cold water to look for old objects and he also may not have drowned, because his reaction time and alertness would have been different.   His BAL was 2.6 when he was fished out of the water; drunk driving is triggered at .08 (or .10 years before that).  His last rehab doctor discussed it at the time, that drinking was a contributing factor.  Dennis was even drunker when he entered rehab a few days before.  He couldn't even sober up on his way to a rehab (which he skipped out on early, thus winding up on the boat that day).

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2209&dat=19840114&id=g5orAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1vkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6785,2122807

I think people need to understand a few things... a high blood alcohol for Dennis was normal...there is a thing called tolerance and by '83 his was built way up. The people that were with him knew he was buzzed, but not falling down drunk like I would be with a blood alcohol half of that. Also Dennis swam in colder water than 58 many, many times...it wasn't a ridiculously cold water temp for him. Bringing stuff up off the bottom proves nothing, in fact, the last item he brought up was a photo of he and Karen on their wedding day...you think that proves he wanted to live somehow? That makes no sense...seeing it could have been extremely depressing. The gash on his head...he'd been in a pretty rough fight the day before... some accounts say he got beat up by a younger guy. So he likely had face and head lacerations no matter if he hit his head on the dock or not. There is not a definitive call to make on this. More than one of his closest friends (you know who you are) were told by DENNIS in those last months that he was going to be dead soon. Those were Dennis' words. He knew something, whether it was trying to gain sympathy, or if it was a premonition, or a signal he was giving up...there's enough evidence to at least say maybe he checked out...maybe he escaped. I tend to lean that way. You can still see the horrible inevitability in the eyes of his friends...and some of them still half expect him to surface and be okay. Either way, he gave us such incredibly honest and moving music, he truly poured his heart and soul into it...and because of that he lives on.

Bingo. I would imagine that he had thoughts of suicide but probably didn't consciously decide to end it all that day - but it could have been unconscious. With all the self-destructive activity the poor guy engaged in, he certainly had a death wish somewhere, whether consciously or subconsciously.

I can attest to that...that's how my mom passed.

They just concluded not to long ago that Amy Whinehouse's death was alcohol related.

I read a People magazine account of his last hours.  It was mentioned that he was staggering at one point, so even though he had a high tolerance for alcohol, he still could be impaired by it.  It also could have blunted his sense of cold.  He was diving for about an hour off and on.  He may have been used to swimming in cold water, but that doesn't mean he wasn't able to get hypothermia.  The more he was in that water, the more his body temperature dropped.  That could have made him fatigued and unable to get up out of the water that one last time.  His drowning was witnessed, as it happened, and his "friends" on the boat literally did nothing about it.  One of the witnesses in the article described seeing Dennis swim very slowly, then go under the water, and bubbles were coming up.  I don't think the guy realized it, but that was a sign that Dennis stopped holding his breath (which means he was drowning in front of the guy's eyes).  The man did nothing.  He thought Dennis was playing a trick and would come back up.  Others thought the same thing and went looking for him at local bars, hoping he re-surfaced somewhere else and went to get a drink.  It took them hours to call in harbor patrol to go look for him. I wonder if Dennis' family bore any ill will towards the people who were with Dennis that day?

Very interesting. Speaking from experience, when someone you love is self-destructive and an addict, they often hang around with other self destructive idiots (not calling these people idiots necessarily, who knows what they were thinking). When the loved one dies, there is often bitterness and recrimination against the people they surrounded themselves with, but in the end, it was Dennis' actions that caused his death and no one else can really be blamed for it. It does really suck to hear that, though... he was so close to being saved. C'est la vie. He probably would have self destructed a week later.

A very sad end to an full and rich life. Denny touched many peoples lives in his own life and beyond. For myself I feel that I know him as a friend via his music. Someone you could talk to about your problems over a drink or two late into the night.
Like all who known him personally I felt that he had very big heart and that even Mike told that he would give the shirt off his back if someone needed it. Thank you all for the replies to this. I'm sure Denny is looking down proud of the Beach Boys esp his brother Brian :)

What's really a shame is that he didn't live to the New Year, when Jimmy & Carl's intervention was planned.  Of course there's a good chance it wouldn't have worked, or maybe worked for only for a little while but not long term, but I think it was probably his best bet.  But we'll never know.  :(

At least Denny lived longer than some of his other self destructive rock drummer peers/counterparts (i.e. Keith Moon).

Here's some more on the topic of what might have happened to Dennis that day (I know, it is morbid, but interesting to speculate):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_water_blackout

It describes how people who take free dives in shallow water, holding their breath underwater for prolonged amounts of time, can drown from blacking out.  This is due to their breath-holding causing them to hyperventilate before they even take the dive under and depriving their brains of oxygen, which causes them to black out, lose consciousness, and go to the bottom of the water silently, where they drown if no one finds them quickly enough (which they often don't, because there's no cry of distress).  It says it can happen to young, fit people who believe they're stong swimmers and have experience holding their breath for a long time, but they just get into a situation of blacking out that they never anticipate. 

It remains a slight shock the way the together Dennis of the 1974 doc, or the 1976 Lorne Michaels special, changed so quickly to the out of control one on Midnight Special in 1979 or Good Morning America in 1980. All the interviews I have heard from 1976-77 have him being thoughtful and articulate. Murry's death was the factor that tipped Brian and Dennis over to me, but Dennis took time to unravel. 1971 seems to be the first majorly destructive incident (with his hand) that you can trace to his problems later. Perhaps it wouldn't have progressed from there if Murry hadn't died, but we can't know. There was some drunk performances after Murry did pass in 1973, but Dennis came off so much more healthy than later. 1974 was the vocal change which we can probably put down to the throat punch. Late 1976 seems to be when he started looking rough. 1977 the bad stage performances started for real. By 1978 he was obviously in trouble, and I too would say the Superbowl 1981 incident seems to be when he seemed almost like he couldn't go back anymore.

I suppose it was, like Brian, a deep rooted emotional issue that eventually turned into a substance issue. Brian's fall seemed far slower, (though to be fair he also in the two years before Murry died seemed to gradually be having more addictive behavior or reclusive behavior that like I said above only tipped into true self destruction after June 1973) but I suppose Dennis' descent was by stages too. Still its interesting to see the changes from 15 Big Ones to even POB. Something in his eyes had changed. I agree with what Desper told me about Brian and Dennis sustaining through the early seventies because the group communicated well as a team. "Toking on the same joint" as he put it. I feel I figured out why Murry's death hit Brian and Dennis so hard. Yet for me I still would like to know what part the inter group tentions of mid seventies and beyond played in their decline.  Or maybe it was  more the other way around and the decline caused the tention? Chicken and the egg isn't it? Dennis was thinking of leaving the group in 1971, Brian didn't want Surf's Up used, were those the first signs of true trouble within the band? Obviously the division wasn't nearly as bad as later but they felt like they were being overruled as early as then. Really I see 1971 being the root cause of problems far more than 1967. Still it wasn't really until 1977 that group ceased acting like a unit by and large. So many questions remain don't they? I hope my book will give some clarity as to why it went wrong for Dennis, Brian, and the group as a whole. I can't offer a clean all purpose solution, but my goal was that to provoke more reasoned thinking about the band.

I've read conflicting things about this. Was it...

a) Dennis was punched in the throat in '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?
b) Dennis' substance abuse caught up to him by '74, causing the more gravelly tone, then was later assaulted by Stan Love/Rocky Pamplin etc. including being punched/kicked in the throat, causing him to permanently stop singing?

I think it was the Badman book(I know, kind of a poor source) that mentioned that Dennis wanted to leave the group in the early 1970's. I think he threatened to leave more than once. The book also mentions that Dennis was "fined" after the opening night of a tour. I think it was the 1975 tour. He apparently drank a full bottle of wine. So I think 1974-75 might have been one of the first signs of serious trouble. The hand injury was a sign, but it didn't affect his ability to perform. Well, he couldn't drum, but it didn't affect him in the way that heavy drinking did.  I agree with Mike Eder that it's shocking to see the difference in Dennis between the 1976 Lorne Michaels special, and the 1977 Maryland show, for example. You can see in Dennis's eyes in the Maryland footage that he's pretty wrecked. He still looked fairly good though, physically. His beard was thicker in 1978-ish. In the pictures of Dennis in the POB booklet, he has a really thick beard, and maybe some bags under his eyes. By 1979 he looked really rough. After that he just went full speed ahead, almost like a train without the breaks. Although, I've always thought that Dennis looked fairly together in those 1983 group photos.

I have to disagree with Mike regarding Brian, though. Brian still looked really good up to around mid 1973, and his voice was the same. But within a year or so, the voice was gone, and he started to seem more out of it in photos. The "deer in the headlights" look. He also gained a lot of weight, and seemed uninterested as far as The Beach Boys were concerned. I think Brian's decline was much quicker, and much more apparent than Dennis's.

I once did some research regarding the issue of Dennis's voice change. I listened to as many 1971-74 concerts with Dennis singing that I could find. I have come to the conclusion that if Dennis had kept quiet and rested his voice, he most likely would have been able to save much of what he lost. His drinking and smoking probably did more damage than the punch would have. But I think that the 1981 beating by Stan Love and Rocky Pamplin well and truly ruined his voice beyond repair.

I go with A due to stories I heard from several different sources that matched.

Jay I agree about Brian vocally and physically changing pretty quickly (though I would say the vocal damage happened mainly in 1975 with the weight gain and general untidiness happening in 1974. I more meant that his mental issues and drug problems seemed to develop over a longer period of time, whereas Dennis seemed to go down fast at least in how he presented himself in public. I am sure in private these issues had been festering for him as well, but he was coping to some degree after Murry's death than all of a sudden he wasn't. Smoking, cocaine, and booze didn't help Dennis as a singer but I still think the punches in 1974 and 1981 triggered serious damage that would have taken longer to become evident. I too think Dennis could have gotten some of his vocal chops back, but he didn't follow his doctors orders on how to heal his voice so that's why he never recovered to any great extent. The 1973 Forever performance I heard is very clear vocally, as was the early River Song.   

Thanks for the info/clarification :)

Also, the early "River Song" doesn't circulate among fans, does it?

Yeah it actually came out in 1987 on the California Feeling LP boot and has been reissued many times since. It's very good but not finished.

From what I've read here and elsewhere, it seems to me that at least two of the Wilsons (Brian and Dennis) were pretty much through with the Beach Boys as a band by the early-mid-'70s, and on most of their later contributions to the band in the late '70s, the Wilsons often worked together, without the other guys, and it was perhaps due to family/ group politics that Dennis's '70s BB stuff never appeared on a DW solo album.

Even Carl had his substance period where he was apparently closer to his brothers for a while and then temporarily left the group in the early '80s to go solo, before coming back and seemingly taking more of a back seat on their records than before, while remaining firmly the live band's musical director, of course.

Makes me think if the Wilson bros had been a bit more together in late '70s, we could have had a Beach Boys consisting only of Mike, Al and Bruce in the '80s, with the Wilsons either forming their own splinter group (they were imo the spiritual heart of the band) or pursuing solo careers while helping out on each other's records, or the brothers even making a legal bid to take the BBs band name for themselves  :o

I asked this once before, but I don't think I ever got an answer: Brian/Landy said in the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" that Carl had asked Landy to work with Dennis. Was Landy going to be part of the Carl/Guercio intervention?

Obviously the best-case scenario would be Landy getting Dennis "clean" and then Dennis seeing through Landy's bullmerda and telling Brian, "We can stay sober without this guy," and rescuing Brian before Landy did his pharmaceutical damage. Of course, as long as I'm dreaming, I might as well ask for a pony.  :-)

Brian's voice change happened stunningly fast.  There are demos as late as November/December '74 where he sounds 80% the same guy.  It's really quite shocking to me.  It really seems like something happened.

Dennis' is more gradual and more easily to imagine reversing.  I'm sure the punch in the throat was a factor, but constant strain is the real culprit a lot of the time, and it doesn't seem like he took very good care of his voice.

I asked Brian about the voice change and he confirmed he wanted to sound different from 1975 on. Now I also confirmed with others that he was smoking an incredible amount very suddenly to wreck his voice. Add the cocaine and Brian's voice changed radically. Whether he knew it wouldn't go back, I still think it was self inflicted. Who knows maybe he tried to hurt it violently.

Always breaks my heart when reading this. I don't think he realized he was silencing the voice of songs like "Wouldn't It Be Nice?", "Don't Worry Baby", etc. forever.

I dont think Dennis ever recovered from the Manson murders and the thought that some in the family were still out to get him. When Murray died it was just a continuation of what started. Dennis' last years were just a constant looking to score drugs or booze phase. Dennis would go in bars announce who he was, and ask someone to buy him a beer. That wasnt exactly the sign of someone on the verge of turning it around.

I have a very "smooth" singing voice, with a high range, like Brian in the 60s (although I am not comparing myself to him, he was an incredible singer, I am not that great). I have had people say to me "you should some some cigarettes to get a more gravely voice."

Setting aside how absolutely idiotic that notion is, I can imagine that Brian had some people say that to him from time to time, especially when he complained that his voice was too smooth/high-pitched. I think he had an issue with not sounding masculine enough.

Who? Seriously, who not only thinks this is a good idea (because apparently everyone should sound like the guy from Nickelback?) but then goes and suggests it to others?

This guy says he did.

(http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/50538812.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=E41C9FE5C4AA0A14140306A852527FF0B486C872D301DA2FD0ACAB5A39D26603E30A760B0D811297)

(Frank Sinatra)  :-\

A couple of idiotic people I knew many years ago in college. Nobody who is reasonably intelligent. I even feel stupid just mentioning it.

I do think, though, that this is the kind of mindset Brian had about his voice - this is the same guy who created one of the most brilliant pieces of music in history and scrapped it. In his case, it wasn't idiocy, but a strong lack of self-confidence.

I am really glad that Brian has gotten out of his "shouting" phase over the past few years. Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin in particular has some of his most nuanced, mellifluous vocals since the early 70s.

To be honest, I think Dennis sounds somewhat rough in the early River Song recording. Especially on "You Know it's rough, getting round this place..." and "I'm looking for some country life...". He does sound very good, but on those two instances I can definitely hear the Dennis voice of 1976 and beyond.

Regarding Brian's drug problems, I think Carl once said that he didn't realise how bad the cocaine use was until the CATP sessions. But now that I think about it, it wasn't until around 1977 that it became noticeable, like in the Maryland show. By January of 1978, he was jumping head first into heroin, and a very dark place.

Well it's just hard to say how Brian was from 1972-75 as he wasn't in public much. I would assume his drug use became real bad after Murry died, but no doubt to me that by 1972 things had the potential to get bad.  He seems a bit coked out on that 9-1-74 interview to me, but as far as obvious behavior I suppose 1977 was different as far as his condition being obviously caught on film or tape.

Smoking and drinking and drugs at a preposterous rate for years killed Denny's voice. It ruined his looks as well. I remember seeing close up photos of him in '83 and he had that smokers skin, the premature wrinkles. Because he had periods along the way when his voice seemed better or worse at times means nothing. To suggest a punch to the throat at some point did his voice in is searching for a more "dramatic" answer, when the obvious is staring right at you. Look at how many pictures in the new Smile book show Denny with a cigarette.

Ask Ed Roach and Steve Desper they will tell you quite different. I stand by everything I said.

They couldn't have helped, but Dennis' vocal change was fairly drastic and sudden. Brian's was, too, but his was deliberate and even had Dennis, of all people, telling him he shouldn't smoke so much. Dennis Wilson told Brian Wilson to cut back on the smokes - that's really somethin'.

So yeah, again, I doubt the drinking and smoking helped, but the throat punch causing significant damage and change feels pretty believable.

Cigarettes didn't help, but a debilitating punch to the throat is not "drama" its an established fact. To say its all due to cigarettes because you saw "an up close photo" doesn't square with the additional fact that Carl smoked as much as Dennis. As usual the answer is never black and white...DW's damage or raspiness was due to lifestyle as well as the fact that he had a serious injury (or two) that permanently altered his voice. A trace of rasp was already there in '64 and built slowly into '73 or '74...by '77 it was more gruff than rasp...and by '81 the voice was completely gone.

Why did  Rocky and Stanley beat up Dennis? This was something I never understood out of reading the Gaines book.

Because they are and always have been stupid worthless fucks, and the sooner they're gone from this world, the better for the rest of us

Whilst bgas ain't wrong, I believe the 'reason' was for supplying Brian with drugs. They also hated his guts, though.

Personally, if I could without legal consquences, I would kick Rocky Pamplin's ass and say "This is for Dennis, Motherf*cker!!!"  Rocky also punched out Carl and had an affair with Brian's wife.

All true. While the situation probably did need attention, their methods are the very definition of "totally fucking overboard". Dennis being Dennis, losing his ability to *sing* was probably a huge blow to his well-being. Not at all on a "STAN AND ROCKY KILLED DENNIS" rant, here, but damn - that couldn't have been easy for him and couldn't have helped his confidence.

And yeah, these kids didn't strike me as good choices at all.

"Brian needs to be looked after and there needs to be some peace within this band."

"Cool. Excuse me while I f*** Brian's wife and kick Dennis in the throat. Can I sing on one of your songs, too? Cool."

And people go after Mike! As if this sh*t wasn't bad enough, who the hell voluntarily chooses to go by "Rocky"?

Wasn't aware of him punching Carl. Carl! If there was ever a level-headed and diplomatic guy in the Beach Boys story, I'm pretty sure it was Carl Wilson. What was the reasoning behind that little gem of an incident?

That was the David Frost incident. Carl had allegedly scored some bad dope through a roadie (if I remember correctly it made Brian very ill). As Rocky and the other idiot were in charge of keeping Brian clean at the time, everyone was mega pissed. At a band meeting to discuss the fallout Carl was very drunk, said the wrong thing to Rocky and got sucker punched.

Additionally, the initial damaging throat punch was delivered much earlier that the Stan & Rocky episode.  That incident seems to have fallen by the wayside...

Beautiful. Who appointed these jokers? Wasn't it apparent that being slapped around by some brutal asshole didn't do the Wilson boys a damn bit of good 20-25 years prior?

I didn't say it was all due to cigarettes. I said drinking, smoking and drugs. And I'm not trying to argue that a punch or 2 along the way could not have happened or caused 'some' damage. My issue is that the conversation was going in the direction that the lifestyle did not help but that the punch from those idiots did his voice in, when common sense would tell you it was the other way around. Some medical records or detail about what was damaged by a punch that would correspond to a permanent change in one's singing or speaking ability might convince me otherwise. Until then I'll stick with the sad reality that Brian and Denny both seriously damaged their voices through their major substance abuse problems.

Stevie Nicks sounded like her old self in '82 and by '85 her voice was gone. The culprit..cocaine. That was sad to watch too.

Right I think you and Steve Desper both said to me sometime in 1974.

I'd say the result of the injury or injuries was greatly magnified by a lack of rehabilitation, which only bolsters elements of your point and mine.

I missed that or misread or forgot. What incident preceded the Pamplin/Love punching of Dennis? It was 1974? Who provoked it?

The well documented Rocky Pamplin/Stan Love beating was 1981, and the 1974 incident was when Steve (not Stan) Love reportedly sucker punched Dennis in the throat... at a restaurant I believe. Both did lasting damage from all accounts.

Yikes, the love family was out to get Dennis. Jon, I ordered your book and I am excited to read it.

Supposedly the Stevester went to the bathroom and when he came back, he caught Dennis eating his pancakes.

Death to both Stan and Steve, then; a long slow, torturing, miserable, painful one, starting with a major punch to their throats severely limiting their ability to breathe.

Thanks, I hope you enjoy it!

Mike, forgive my ignorance, is your book out now, or expected soon?  thanks!

It is being considered by a few places. I hope it will sell in the next few months and be out next year. It's creating quite a buzz lately so my hopes are high for it.