The Smiley Smile Message Board

i was watching a "behind-the-scenes a day in the life" video today of bdw when he was touring that lucky old sun and i thought it was really messed up the way jeff foskett was talking about brian behind his back to the camera. the whole atmosphere the band is implicitly upon seems really awkward and plastic; almost to me like they're treating brian as a child. a lot of people on this board seem to do something similar. i don't even think it's morally right to discuss a stranger's mental/emotional health publicity, let alone when jeff subtly brought it up in that video.

just something that disturbed me. i draw a few parallels between brian and myself, and it would suck if this was one of them.

You lost me at the end. You draw parallels between yourself and Brian, so you hope Jeff Foskett isn't going to discuss your mental/emotional health publicly?

"It would suck if this was one of them" meaning "It would suck if this was one of the parallels between Brian and myself", meaning he hopes people aren't talking about him behind his back, regarding him as a child, etc.

yeah, thanks

I think I remember that video, is it still available?

What would I do without you, runnersdialzero?

I suppose it is a bit disturbing at first blush but right or wrong, Brian's mental state has been used by The Beach Boys and his solo camp as a sales/promotion tool since at least 1976 and the first "Brian's Back" campaign, if not earlier.

One need only a cursory glance at Brian's official messageboard to see the outpouring of well-intentioned and well-worn praise for BW's ability to overcome adversity. Many people feel they can relate to Brian for this reason.

It's not hard to be inspired by what Brian has accomplished in the past 12 or 13 years, including many milestones that once seemed more like contemporary historical fiction, specifically his live performances, completion of SMiLe, and peformances of SMiLe.

Brian's band is a crucial part of his support group so if anyone has the right to talk on camera about Brian's condition, aside from Brian and his family, it is a guy like Jeff Foskett. In a way he has been mother, father, Murray and Landy to Brian for his renaissance.

I like that things aren't sugarcoated when it comes to Brian's mental health and it makes for an excellent documentary in "Beautiful Dreamer." Aside from marketing, I suspect it also serves a secondary practical purpose as a healthy public emotional release valve for those around Brian who have to work around and through his neuroses. Moreover, it helps people understand when Brian has an off-night or a difficult interview.

All that said, I do find the mawkish fixation on Brian's mental state off-putting. Over on the Bleü Board, there is a bit of a cult of personality revolving around Brian's mental illness. It is not healthy and I am glad that isn't the case here on Smileysmile.net.

As a fan who is well-versed in Brian's career, everything from his official DVDs to promotional clips and TV appearances seems to start with a lengthy focus on his history of mental illness. Coupled with the endlessly recycled clip of The Beach Boys singing "Surfin'" from 1963, it means that a true Beach Boys/Brian Wilson fan is one who is able to skip the first 3-6 minutes of any Brian Wilson-related video producton and know they didn't miss a thing.

In the A&E documentary one of the family friends says "this isn't the real BW it's the surrendered BW"


Some of the things, offering his daughter LSD, flirting with a 12-year old girl, introduing himself to his adult daughter at a cocktail party, makes me wonder who gave these stories to the media. They're just damaging.

That was Ginger Blake.  David Anderle says something similar near the end of that doc as well.

It's not unknown for a section of the fanbase of any given personality with such issues (Syd, Roky, Peter Green) to associate with them on the basis of their problems rather than their art: I can understand that, it's kind of saying "well, I'm a bit like this person and look, they've got all these people loving them", which  is encouraging, except when, as happens, these 'fans' elect to focus on the problems and not the positive results or even any great knowledge of the artist's output. That's very sinister.


First one was a family member (it was smack, btw), last one was the daughter in question and I'm guessing the middle was also a daughter, as I recall the girl in question was a friend of theirs.

Thanks Andrew G. Doe / Chris Brown.

Some family and friends....

I think everybody is just trying to do their best in a very difficult situation, Brian's band is like his 2nd family and really do care deeply for the man. Things  were worse with Landy taking care of him and the"brian is back" stunt.

It's quite off putting, I agree. I think a lot of people tend to forget sometimes that Brian is a human being just like the rest of us. They tend to elevate him on a pedestal and treat him like he's something sacred, who's lifestyle and former/current actions are to be studied like an rare and priceless artifact. Even the fact that we're discussing it right now is proof enough. I've always wondered what Brian himself thinks of it all - very few artists get the same meticulous attention to lifestyle and history as he gets. Not even more popular contemporary artists like John Lennon or Paul McCartney get the same kind of scrutiny. Syd Barrett gets it to some extent, but Pink Floyd was never as popular as the Beach Boys when he was a part of it, and his general seclusion from '74 onward pretty much prevented any closer study.

I'd personally find it rather disturbing.

I'M PICKIN UP BAD VIBRATIONS
SHE'S GIVIN ME THE BAD CITATIONS

Brian's management needs to let him retire, but other than that, Brian is doing way better than he has in a long time with his support group of family and bandmates.

From touring? Perhaps. I doubt he wants to stay out of the studio and away from the piano, though.

That being said, one of the great oddities about BW and BBs is how incredibly open the world is to fans -- and how willing it is to talk about Brian's issues in excruciating depth. If you just make a connection or two (especially in this age of Facebook), it's not that hard to learn way more than you even care to.

And this has historically been true! Everyone in the saga has been spilling their guts from the 70s on. It's almost dysfunctional, in a way. I mean, do McCartney fans or Dylan fans hear this much first-hand scuttlebutt?

Yeah i meant retirement from touring, his group would be awesome in the studio working with Brian on whatever projects Brian thinks up.

This is a very insightful point and one that I've always felt merited some discussion.  When I think about the bands that I listen to and their fanbases, I don't think there is any other band that I'm aware of where the fans feel such an emotional investment in than The Beach Boys and the circle of people with whom they associate with.  I mean just take this message board for example: When it was revealed that Van Dyke Parks did not write an essay for TSS, there was an outrage here where one would think that someone just shot the darn dog.  I mean people really took it personally that Van Dyke was either a) excluded from or b) chose not to pen an essay for the box set.

The same thing with Mike Love.  There is an entire quarry of Beach Boys fans who treat Mike Love like he was the black sheep of their own family instead of someone whom most of them have never met and if they had really never had any significant contact with in their life.

Then when you hear people speak about Brian Wilson and his plights, it's almost again like they are talking about a family member or a friend instead of whom he actually is.  Part of it I believe is due to some of the plights Brian has gone through which people can relate to but also I think a lot of it has to do with his music and how his songs bear the quality of being emotional touchstones for so many people.  I really do believe that Beach Boys fans have an emotional investment in their favorite band (Brian Wilson specifically) that simply does not exist in other fanbases.  Even in the case of Bruce Springsteen (whom I'm a huge fan of) who has spent his entire career giving voice to the working class I have not seen the amount of empathy that exists between The Beach Boys and their fanbase.  It's really something very unique I believe.

But they embrace the fans too. And maybe that's why the unusual give-and-take exists. So many people in the BW / BB world began as fans -- Leaf, Darian, Foskett, etc., etc. -- so they have a direct connection to others who connect with the group. And for some reason, Brian and and all the other main actors have never felt like a separate class -- they seem like regular, working people who somehow made a lot of money though talent and hard work.

Until they fired Murry - the most honest, hardest working man in showbiz.

I would guess that Jeff knows Brian way better than most people and if he were not private and protective he could say a great deal about Brian that might be embarassing and hurtful.  Instead, he is on the stage, to Brian's left, every night they have performed, with Brian glancing over for a cue or some reassurance, which Jeff is always ready in a milisecond to provide....seemlessly filling in a forgotten word or picking up the vocal as needed.  I think he acts more like Carl or Dennis, an admiring and  respectful younger brother who is concerned about his brother's delicate condition.
And sometimes brothers give one another sh*t.

At the beginning of this thread a video was mentioned..What video are you referring to..?..

http://www.rollingstone.com/videos/new-and-hot/brian-wilson-behind-the-scenes-at-his-new-york-concert-20081212#ooid=YwcDQzMTqLGCqAsvs4Cn1lA_xbW2JtVG

wat @ Brian suddenly busting out part of "Long Promised Road".

Edit: Ah, I guess it was acknowledged in the video. Still cool.

I don't think Jeff, Darian, or anyone else was speaking out of turn about Brian's condition in that video?

I mean, even if he was, Brian Wilson is a man who the public mostly know as man with mental health problems. His condition should be acknowledged, and understood.

Plus, you could just as well say most of the things Jeff said about Brian referring to his 1966 self, for instance. Oh no, Brian loves playing his piano and eating! How disrespectful.  ::)

Thanks for the link..I dont see anthing in it that is offensive..Love to see BW play LPR in concert..! YEA.!

If you've ever known anyone with mental health issues, sometimes THEY are the ones making it the center of the universe. 

I see where you're coming from, and Brian's condition should be understood and acknowledged. I just feel that at times, the public perception of him suffering from mental health issues seems to overshadow his huge musical achievements. Sort of like, 'Yeah BW, he's that wierd old guy from the Beach Boys who took too many drugs and never quite came back'.  ???

I would equate it with the people of Beethoven's time, saying, 'Yeah his music's all right, but ain't it amazing he can do it now he's deaf?'

Brian is imo a survivor, and less of a casualty. I wonder if it ever irks him that in most interviews and documentaries about him, a large amount of attention is given to his mental health problems, which ain't what he should be famous for. It would certainly annoy me if I wanted to talk about my music  :(  Mental health issues are only a part of a person, not the be all and end all. But I suppose that doesn't make such good copy.

Excellent observation, and I think this is the crux of what we are talking about in this thread.

I think it does bother him sometimes. When he has to answer poorly-researched questions from interviewers (usually right after they intro with the same black and white clip  'Surfin'' that we've all seen 2,000 times) it really affects his interview performance. Some of the best interviews I've read with Brian are ones where the interviewer wants to discuss his music and/or aspects of his life that haven't been gone over a million times.

I'm enjoying this thread because I'm sick to death of the focus on Brian's mental illness. It's like he's pigeonholed and he can never quite shake it, even after touring and releasing music for the most productive period in his life since the 60's.

Of course, the mawkish and prurient focus on Brian's illness is also present in his official productions (TLOS DVD, Beautiful Dreamer, etc.) Overall, the idea that a person can only aspire to the highest creative levels if they are mentally or physically damaged is a fallacy and is damaging to our culture. I hate to see it perpetuated by/through Brian.

Agreed. A few random reflections on this topic follow -

If Brian’s mental illness was the cause of his musical creativity, then surely lots more people with even more severe mental issues would be even greater ‘musical genii’. And how come he was able to create all his early stuff when he was apparently quite ‘well’? After all, when caught up in serious mental ‘episodes’, people cannot work at all. Even Van Gogh only painted when he was lucid and yet they call his paintings the work of a ‘mad man’.

And I bet BW is sick and tired of having his mental healthand drug history constantly referred to in interviews etc.

I think Brian’s unfortunate  ‘fame’ as the ‘damaged’ pop genius, especially re’ mental illness rather than through drugs  came out at around the same time as Daniel Johnston came to fame as a mentally ‘damaged’ writer / singer of strange yet beautiful pop songs in the late 1980’s. I’m not really comparing the two, I think they’re very different except that both have written emotionally powerful songs that may or may not be informed by their mental state.

If you take Pink Floyd’s late Syd Barrett, he did most of his best music before he got sick and then he retired from the public eye and music in the early ‘70s. He was apparently never institutionalised in later years to my knowledge and was obviously well enough to function as an independent human ‘in the community’. So was he really that sick or consciously/ unconsciously using it as a way to destroy his pop career and get back to the ‘real world’?

I don’t deny that certain substances like LSD can alter a creative person’s awareness and give their work a new, ‘strange’ flavour, but too much indulgence is clearly bad news for new work. Also, many artists can be truly ‘psychedelic’ without any resort to substances.

And less famously as a mental illness sufferer, Peter Green from the original Fleetwood Mac, has a history at least as sad as Brian’s, but has been playing guitar and performing/recording regularly for many years, but doesn’t seem to attract the press BW gets. Could it be because BW is more of a ‘great composer’ type who likes to be near a piano and has shown classical influences?
I also know that being in a work place with people with chronic mental illness can be deeply frustrating, especially when they’re on a ‘bad’ day or night and aren’t functioning as well as they can on peak form and would guess it can be quite ‘interesting’ playing in a band with a person who can be severely depressed/ erratic at times.

All speculation from an outside viewpoint of course, and one feels a little prurient even discussing people’s personal stuff on here, even if it is all in the public domain, other than out of historical interest in the BB/BW phenomena.

If I could interview BW today, I would love to ask Brian what he thinks of his late 1970’s music (ie’ Love You/ Adult/Child era), the Mount Vernon and Fairway suite, the Smile-esque Rio Grande suite (would love it if he did this live, especially segueing into or out of Heroes and Villains) on BW 88, the Wilson/ Paley sessions in ‘95ish,  his thoughts on Dennis and Carl’s solo work and song writing and other less well worn areas of his music career. I’d also like to lend him some CDs of the Flaming Lips, Animal Collective and other modern acts majorly inspired by him and see what he makes of their sounds. More interesting than Q ‘Brian, what’s your favourate BBs song?’-A ‘California Girls’ or ‘He still hears voices in his head woo hoo’, surely ...

As far as Syd goes this is a theory I've heard more and more in the years since he passed - that Syd was just a kind of angry, bitter, but otherwise mentally healthy guy who wanted to avoid all association with his musical past, and was happy to use the presumption of mental issues as a way to keep fans and the press at bay. 

I could see that theory working from the 1980s on, because if Brian got better somewhat better with help, then Syd could have as well. Syd looked pretty good as a normal middle aged man before he died.

I mean, when I saw BW at the festival hall earlier this year, my friend (who knows f*ck all about Brian Wilson) was really quite worried by him, and (cos she's nice like this) found his condition alternately quite funny-peculiar. Which was.... kinda embarassing. I do stress, she's kinda dim.

I guess we cannot place the burden of the public perception of mental illness onto Brian's PR guy, but still. It's the thing we always mention when he makes TV appearances - people are going to think this guy is really ODD. And he is. Dude's not well. What's the problem with openly discussing it? People think he's odd because they have no idea about him, and so why it needs to be at least mentioned. Interviewers are almost always sensitive about it, as they damn well should be, but the alternative is insisting he's fine and then you've got 'Brian's Back' all over again. He's so much better than he used to be, it's true. But it absolutely needs to be in the discussion, as it affects the public perception of him. And the public are never that nice, really, so whatever they can do to educate people about Brian's issues. They don't have to pry, but it has to be discussed.

rant, rant.

I agree. I think it is important for people to realize Brian has day to day problems because he is not always "on" and sometimes does things like falling asleep during interviews.

However, EVERYONE knows these days that Brian has problems. There is no danger of people not knowing. "Brian's Back" was egregious for other reasons, but I suppose my point in all this is that every release of Brian's music (albums and DVDs) is accompanied by a quasi-"Brian's Back" campaign, and the rest of us are sitting here saying, "I never knew that he was gone!"

I don't feel Brian has been allowed to make his own creative decisions for a long time. Some stuff he has done I am sure he liked, or really felt a part of, others it has been hype. Maybe I avoid the post 1974 Brian to some extent because it's hard for me to know if he wanted to do any of it. That said projects like Adult Child, The Paley sessions, or TLOS, show flashes of real quality. I would say I only really enjoy a third of his 1975-82 stuff and maybe twenty percent since. I just can't get into the solo years in a big way as I just feel Brian's discomfort so acutely at times. I feel sad for him watching videos of him post 1980 in most instances.  I think Brian is overall a sweet guy, but it is like he surrendered after Murry died and even more so after Dennis passed.

But that's what I'm saying - not everyone knows Brian has problems! He's not as popular as we'd like to think, as a figure separate from The Beach Boys. Yeah, he's more active now than he's been in quite some time, but he's still not anything approaching 'popular' - we follow his career, so what you refer to is old news, but some people have no bloody clue who he is.

Interesting. I've suspected something like this about Barrett for a while, but have never heard anything to back it up until now. I know he was quite heavily into his painting later in life and shunned any contact from Floyd band members, fans, interviews, photographers etc until the end. Sounds like he just associated the Floyd era with a very unhappy time in his life and wanted to be well rid of it. Probably just wanted peace. Though I believe he lived modestly in Cambridge most of his life, I don't suppose the royalties from his Floyd and solo albums did him any harm either  ;D Shame if he felt he had to self-destruct his whole music career to get some peace though.

Anyway, back on topic  :)

Of the many phrases I might use to describe Syd post-Floyd, "mentally healthy" is one I would never consider, even fleetingly. Everyone involved with him, family to musical colleagues, sings from the same hymnsheet, and that tune went "Syd was seriously damaged". Also, if he wanted to avoid all association with his musical past, why turn up at Abbey Road unannounced ?

Well, that was 1974. Like Brian, Peter Green and Roky Erickson, I suspect Barrett benefited from the proper use of medication later in life although, unlike with the other three, I don't know of any documentation to that effect.

Also, I am not a mental health expert, but I have read that some disorders on this spectrum (schizoaffective?) are ameliorated by changes to the brain that naturally happen after the age of 60. Brian is the poster child for this phenomenon.

Syd wasn't good at taking his medication, which is why he lost some fingers in later life (he was a diabetic). I see where you're trying to go, but the established and documented facts of Syd post-1974 was that except when he was briefly part of a community for people with problems like his, he lived in Cambridge in relative seclusion with his mother (then alone when she died, but his sister looked in every day) and saw almost no-one else other than on trips to the shops or when fans/journalists came knocking at his door. he saw the BBC documentary about himself, and his only reported comment was "it was rather loud". There's no reason to think eh was putting anything on to avoid the attentions of anyone - unless he was a hugely talented actor.

This is the first I had heard that Syd lost his fingers. That is really sad.

Actually 1975 but then he more or less killed Syd and became Roger. He talked casually to a reporter in 1982 but that was it. Syd in 1968-70 was still pretty creative, what happened from there is I guess he just got worse. After July 1967 I wouldn't call him sane either, but it's hard to figure out what was really wrong.

Well, it was just theory.  Like gravity.

I guess I had read a piece from Syd's sister where she claimed that in the last decade or so of his life he was effectively unmedicated and free of any particular diagnosable psychiatric condition, and combined this with a few other possibly-spurious anecdotes about his alleged health in my mind. 

Of course I am talking more about the 80s-90s.  After the 70s, as far as I know, there aren't really any more salacious 'crazy Syd' stories that would suggest what was going on with him, so there are some grounds for speculation that his silence/withdrawal was a deliberate, self-possessed act and not the product of mental instability.

Thanks for this - no offense anazgno, but I don't understand how anyone could believe Syd was just "angry". I mean maybe he was, I don't know, but some of the stuff he did in the 60s as well as later spending time in a mental institute are well established. There are varying degrees of this stuff, obviously, and I do think Syd recovered a bit. However, in most cases (and seemingly his, too), you can recover but you never fully "come back". Same goes for Brian.

I will say, though, that the notion his sister laid out - that he knew what people wanted from him but refused to give it to them, seems about right. People think he "lost it" and that's why he stopped creating music, but it feels fairly obvious that he just lost interest in creating music completely. It happens. I do recall the "rather loud" comment, but there was also him mentioning enjoying hearing "See Emily Play" again, which I always thought was pretty cool.

Also, yeah, had no idea he'd lost fingers :( that really sucks.

I read that interview with Syd's sister, too.  She was in denial.  I'm not sure why family members of mentally ill people feel stigmatized by the label of schizophrenia.  I think that's why now, in the States, the phrase more frequently used has become "schizoaffective."  I'm not sure if it's the medical community wanting to make distinctions or wanting to spare family members or patient's egos.  Like the way it's now said that Brian is not now or never was a schizophrenic, even though he has all the symptoms of the disease and would have been said to be schizophrenic a few decades ago, by the old definition.  Melinda even put out a press release several years ago saying that Brian was diagnosed with suffering from depression only (not even schizoaffective) and that he was only taking the anti-depressant Luvox, and that Luvox alone had eliminated his symptoms.  But Brian himself told an interviewer a few months later that he was taking five medications, including medications normally only given to people with schizophrenic symptoms like hearing voices or having hallucinations.  I'm not sure why Melinda did that, unless she either wanted to (over)protect Brian or got a kickback from the company that makes Luvox, since she mentioned it by name.  In any case, maybe it's the same instinct that made Syd's sister deny that there was anything much wrong with her brother.

Mike, I could not disagree MORE with your post.

First, if Brian had really "surrendered" as you say, then why did he challenge himself to start up touring in 1998?  We know that Brian has MAJOR "stage fright" issues, SO... for him to come back and tour, and deal with that fear, to me that shows heart,  guts and MAJOR cajones!

Also, TLOS is not a "flash of quality".  To me, it's a career peak, one that stands taller than much of his work, in any era.

IMHO

Schizoaffective is more a combination of symptoms associated with Bipolar disorder and Schizophrenia proper than an actual attempt to replace Schizophrenia - and even then, it's being debated where or not it deserves a place in the DSM-V.

But yes, people would rather pretend that their loved one is perfectly okay than admit that the person has something wrong with him. (Look at Brian in the '70s.) It's a simple matter that dealing with a mental illness is an incredibly stressful process, especially in cases where there are 'ups' and 'downs'. It's natural that people choose to take the easier way as opposed to tacking such a difficult problem head on, again, especially in cases where people can rebound significantly. Quadruple that when the person is famous - as Syd and Brian were/are. Admitting a famous loved one has a mental illness means more media attention, which the person probably doesn't need.

It just dawned on me that Brian's actual presence or "non-presence" in music-related projects has been marketed by referring to his overall state of mind for such a long time it's incredible. Just take a glimpse at the back cover of Holland (where he seems to be thoroughly depressed, you'd think they could have found a better photograph than this...) and then read the album's original liner notes: "He once retired to his room, somewhere in the rambling Edgar Rice Burroughs house in Bel Air, for six solid months. To further avoid even local travel, he constructed a substantial studio in the living room of this same house (a '30s Gothic affair, right down to the secret panels)."

Makes me wonder when this all really started to take on a life of its own.

It's been an issue since the late 1960s, really.  Brian stopped appearing with the band or even on record covers (or he was crudely pasted in).  Also, writers who interviewed him during that period had no choice but to write what he was saying to them.  There's an interview David Dalton did with him in 1968 where Brian was convinced that David was Phil Spector.  I'm not sure if that interview was published in '68 or later, but I'm sure the music community and the press knew about Brian's condition.