The Smiley Smile Message Board

Having just listened to the box set (yeah, I know I must be the last BB fan in the country to do so) I'm confused about Dada/All Day/Dada/Cool Cool Water/Water chant.  How do they all relate, or do they?

We have the first attempts at Dada with taped piano strings and Fender rhodes on 12/22/66.  What is this all about?  What song is it for?  This is just after the "list" with Brian desperately trying to get the album finished to deliver in January.  Why do this song?  Could this be the "unfinished piano piece" that he later described as Air?  Could it be an attempt at Water for The Elements?  Was it part of Heroes?

Then we have the 1/27 attempt where it appears to be at an all Heroes session and is shorter than what was attempted on 12/22 - like it was to be a short section of Heroes, only there's a second part to it he plays at the end.

Then we have the May sessions where it seems to be it's own song, with a part 1, part 2, and part 3 that breaks down.  Very important - the part 3 section sounds like a variation on "Child."

We move to June's Cool Cool Water - a sloppy version to be sure, but the chording is very similar to Dada - a rewrite, or a new song?  And finally Wild Honey's Oct take, which has a bridge that is the SAME as the part 3 version of the May Dada.  That certainly reinforces the links between Dada and Cool Cool Water.

Water chant - we now know NOT recorded for Smile.  This blew my mind.  It must have been intended all along for incorporation into Cool cool water.

I'd love to come up with a theory to explain the evolution of all this, but somehow it just seems beyond my grasp . . . any ideas?

The simplest explanation seems best: "Dada" is just a "feel" that Brian returned to a few times to see if he could develop it into a song (not a song specifically for SMiLE, mind you) that eventually formed the basis of "Cool, Cool Water" (finally completed in 1970 for SUNFLOWER). That the "Water Chant" wasn't recorded until Oct. '67 would pretty much eliminate it from being something planned for SMiLE.

Yeah, it is actually pretty funny. When the "Cool Cool Water Chant" sessions came out on Unsurpassed Masters, Vol. 17 I had to adjust my head to make it "fit" into SMiLE (of course, before then it was solely a "Cool Cool Water" recording in my mind). I came to like it (love it) as an into to "Love to Say Dada" and having it included in Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE pretty much cemented it in my SMiLE thinking... but then... this Sessionography comes a long. Now I have to go back to my original thinking. LOL! Isn't SMiLE grand!?

Anyone hear the similarity between Dada and Wind Chimes?  Could they both be variations of the same thing? 

I think Roger hit it on the head.

I've always wondered what the heck David Anderle was referring to in that late '67 interview where he said "[Brian] made us aware of what fire was going to be, and what water was going to be. We had some idea of air. That was where it stopped." David had stopped hanging around Brian well before Smile ended, so Brian apparently had something in mind for "water" before Smile collapsed.

If the "wadoo" chant wasn't the water element, then what else would have fit the bill? My guess would be  DaDa as of Dec. 66, but that's just a guess. Then DaDa gets considered for H&V like almost everything else in early '67, before coming back into its own (and being developed further) by May. Like Roger says, it later forms the basis for Cool Cool Water. DaDa just evolved over time.

Yeah, but it is hard to say whether elements (no pun intended) of that Cool Cool Water melody weren't always part of Love to Say Dada. After all, there were hardly any lead vocals put on the Smile songs post-November.

That being said, the title was fairly set in stone and it is interesting that it does reference Child is Father of the Man. I am reminded of that session on the box set when they figure out the horn part and Brian says,  "That's our baby!" as if it fits thematically with the song (and, well, the title is a pretty good tip off for that already). But the idea of a baby in Child and the title Love to Say Dada with a reference to Child seems to be quite an intriguing development.

There's also the story that Marilyn (or was it Dianne?) relates in the box set book. She mentions Brian drinking from a baby bottle while composing Da Da.

Sorry to resurrect this old topic, but has anyone had other thoughts about what Da Da was originally recorded for?  A lot of pieces started out as parts of H&V, and "All Day" apparently was recorded for H&V on 1/27.  But what about the 12/22 session?  There doesn't seem to be any indication that it was recorded for H&V or any other then-existing song.  The box set simply lists it as "Da Da session."

was there not a general consensus that Da Da was just another fragment of H&V that Brian worked on during Jan 1967, however since it was not being used he decided to expand it into a song on its own? Since this idea popped up after the sessions for Vegetables were over in April 67, when the project was already nearing collapse. This would imply that Dada was simply one of Brian's last meanderings in the Smile project and therefore the is no original intended water piece for Smile, meaning that the Elements concept never went beyong conception and never made any tape. As the memo sent to Capitol says, it leaves Vege and Wind Chimes out of elements, so Fire was the only section for Elements recorded. So Dada was as directionless as Tune X or any other funny thing he did after Jan 67

I think most or all of what you say is true, but I'm still unclear as to what Da Da was in December (that is, was it part of another track, or maybe an independent idea like Speeches or Tune X).  That seems like the best guess right now, since nothing connects the December Da Da to anything else.

I point-blank asked Brian on his message board once during a chat, "Brian, which songs were Water, Fire, Earth, and Air?" and he just made up some bullshit answer.  It was awesome.  So the 2005 version of Brian told me things like Surf's Up was Fire, and that Vegetables was water, etc.  I can't remember which ones he said were what, but the way he said it so matter of factly was awesome. 

I took it more as Brian thoght it was funny that anybody would obsess so much over it, than he didn't know.  Sort of like if somebody asked the Dhali Lama the meaning of life, and he told them it was to drive a cadillac. 

"Fire is Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Water, is Surf's up and air is Our Prayer and Earth is H&V. L&M Brian"

(Google is an amazing thing).

That sounds about right - I'm not convinced it was necessarily "intended" for anything, probably just another feel that Brian wanted to work on to see where it would lead.  As another poster mentioned, it didn't take long for him to try fitting it into Heroes, but given how radically his approach to the album shifted in January, that isn't overly surprising.

The biggest mystery to me hasn't been where DaDa fits in the overall picture as much as why he randomly decided to work on it in May, after it was obvious that Smile (as he originally intended) wasn't going to happen.  Of all things to go back and work on, why DaDa?

I don't think Brian ever really gave up on Smile. You can file it away, but you can't stop it from evolving and changing and coming back to you - see the Wild Honey take of "Surf's Up". Just Brian trying out his new piano, but even after the demise of Smile, we see he's changed the key, altered the melody, and added a key change ending.

So yeah. Even around the official cut-off date, I don't think whatever force in his mind that was behind Smile could just be stopped outright. Also, it wouldn't shock me if Brian was thinking, even for just a few days (including the days that "Dada" was recorded), that he could officially announce that Smile wasn't happening, put out another record, and continue to work on its fragments and such for as long as he needed without having Capitol breathe down his neck over it as they had been doing.

Side remark: The booklet however leaves Vega-Tables as part of The Elements. I don't give much importance to this memo. We don't know who wrote it or how it came together at all. And SMiLE evolved after that for months before it was shelved, apparently without the back cover ever having been finalised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJvUaGnB_Eg&t=1m15s

Another question about Roll-Around Heaven, the bonus track from That Lucky Old Sun:

When was it written, the chords are at least partly similar to Cool, Cool Water and it has the lyrics "All day"
anyone? it would be nice to have some info, or if it's related to SMiLE etc...

I googled that and I found this:


　　　　＜　NEW　IMPROVED　FULLDIMENSIONAL　STEREO　＞　
　┏┫┏┳┓┳┃　　┳┓┏┏┓┏┓┃┃┳┏┓　　┳┓┏┫ 　┃┳┫
　┗┓┃┃┃┃┃　　┣┫┣┣┫┃　 ┣┫┃┣　━　┣┫┃┣┳┛┗┓
　┣┛┻　 ┻┻┻　　┻┛┻┛┻┻┻┛┗┻┻┛　　┻┛┗┛┻　 ┣┛
　　　　Good Vibrations Good Vibrations Good Vibrations　（Capital）
　　　　　┌──────────────────────┐
　　　　　├─::_:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.:::─┤
　　　　　├’＼∀／＼∀／＼∀／＼∀／＼∀／＼∀／＼∀／’┤
　　　　　├─┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴─┤
　　　　　├┬;;;;;;::::::;;;;::;;::::;::;／ ||||||||||||||||||||||||＼ .;:::;;::::;::::::::::::::;;;::;:┬┤
　　　　　├┤|三三三三三／　.:||┌──┐||＼_.三三三三三三|├┤
　　　　　├┤|─┐::.:　　　|　　　||│　　　│||　.::.|──┐　..:: :::::|├┤
　　　　　├┤|∀ |.∧∧　 |　　...:||├----┤||　.....|. ∀　∧ ∧.: ::|├┤
　　　　　├┤|￣:..( ^皿^） |　.　.:||└-┼-┘||　...::|──.(ﾟーﾟ*) :::|├┤
　　　　　├┤|:::.:::.:| U U│:|　 .　||　|　○　| ||　　..|　　:⊂|.. c ）.:.:|├┤
　　　　　├┤|┰┰┰┰┰|┰ソ||-OPEN￠||ヽ┰|┰┰┰┰┰-|├┤
　　　　　├┤|Å旦●□☆|△∀||／￣￣＼||＾＾）|│││││ ||├┤
　　　　　├┤|(´∀｀)´∀｀)|：）／|| ＋＋＋. ||∀｀)|△Å◎∀）∞|├┤
　　　　　├┤|(・∀・)(゜∀゜|／|　|| ＋＋＋. ||＼∀|∀)(´∀｀)||;ゝ|├┤
　　　　　├┤三三三三三／∥├───-┤＼三三三三三三 |├┤
　　　　　├┤||||||||||||||||||||／／".:":"".ﾞ"""."'＼　||||||||||||||||||||||||├┤
　　　　　├┤|||||||||||||||||||／　..　、　　:　　　'　　＼.||||||||||||||||||||||├┤
　　　　　┗━━━━━━ ”｀"｀".:":"".ﾞ"""."'"｀､━━━━━━━┛
　　　"｀".ﾟﾞﾟﾞﾟﾟ“”ﾞﾞﾞ”ﾞﾟﾞﾟﾟ“”ﾞﾞﾞ”:":"".ﾞ"""."'"｀".:":"".ﾞ"ﾟﾞﾟﾟ“”ﾞﾞﾞ”.ﾞﾟﾞﾟﾟ“”ﾞﾞﾞ”"'"｀
　　────　　Ｉ　Ｎ　　Ｓ　Ｔ　Ｏ　Ｒ　Ｅ　Ｓ　　Ｎ　Ｏ　Ｗ　！！　───

But the illustration in the booklet could very well be just Holmes drawing together various "elements" of the project as a whole.

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was always referred to as one of The Elements, both in the recording studio and on tape boxes. Vega-Tables was NEVER referred to as such in any official way. In that sense, I think the Memo reflects the reality of Vega-Tables more than Holmes's artwork does.

I remember when he said that.

Maybe he was serious.




Whoops.

But the tape of Brian and his friends messing around focused on a) chants about vegetables b) chants about water and c) chants about breathing air. The only thing it lacks is a recording of Mike Vosse playing with matches.

I think Vegetables was at least originally conceived as an element, even if such plans fell through.

I guess so. Maybe I just don't want to believe it.

I wish.

Exactly.  I'm surprised no one has asked Frank Holmes about that specific attribution of Vegetables to the Elements in the booklet, but it seems highly unlikely Frank would have presumed to do that on his own.  He therefor got it from either Brian or Van.  And it must refer to the early "demo" cornucopia version which was recorded October/November 67.  It appears already to be out of Elements by the December list.

There was a January deadline for Smile which definitely spurred Brian's recording in December, even though by dec 22 he surely realized the January deadline wasn't going to happen.  While it's listed as "Dada session" in the Smile box book,  it's not clear what was on the tape box - I suspect nothing, or that the Dada session was found at the end of a reel for another song.  But if he was trying to finish the album for a pressing deadline I doubt he would be just fooling around with a new idea (yes I know this is unpredictable impulsive Brian we're talking about).  If it was to be part of a song, the Elements, obviously unfinished at this point, and of course Heroes are the most likely candidates, and it seems with All Day it was in consideration for Heroes.  Another possibility considering Marilyn's story - it may have been part of Child?

Why are people still obsessing over this? You got it right here. Straight from the horse's mouth.

lawl. Sarcasm, hopefully?

What, so that wasn't a Brian quote?

Brian is absolutely notorious (generally in an amusing way) for rattling off simple, short answers in interviews over the last couple decades, often times contradicting something he said prior or saying things that are obviously not true. For fans to speculate for years and years (and f***ing years) about what the sections of the elements were and for Brian to never answer but a) Suddenly answer the question so bluntly and simply in an online chat (and he very likely was not the one typing - the guy is known to be computer inept) and b) To contradict his choices for the elements on Brian Wilson Presents Smile a year earlier would be totally absurd.

In other words, you can probably go ahead and file this under said simple, short, and inaccurate answers file. If the answer were really so simple as what Brian said, I'm not sure why it would have taken nearly fourty years to come to light and be presented inaccurately on both Brian Wilson Presents Smile and The Smile Sessions.

The answer to "What songs are involved in the elements" is generally accepted as: No one knows, the suite was far from complete and likely involve pieces of music that were never written and/or recorded or, less likely, pieces we have but are not aware were actually elements sections. The only 100% confirmed elements piece is "Fire" - the 2nd part of "Mrs.O'Leary's Cow" if you're listening to Brian Wilson Presents Smile.

I'm more inclined to read what Brian has to say about the elements suite than some nerds on a forum.

If he says Our Prayer is Air, then by god, Air is Our Prairie.

Okey doke.

Which Brian are we talking about?  Brian in 1967, Brian in 1976, Brian in 1988, 1993, 1999 or 2004?  He's contradicted himself so many times ("I burned the tapes" "Of course I didn't burn the tapes"), I wouldn't even trust his own word on it from about 1972 to 2004.  Despite popular belief, Brian is not an unchanging god.

Sometimes people just want easy answers, regardless of accuracy.

I feel more and more strongly that "The Elements" was never really a thing. Smile may have had an elemental theme, but I'm seriously starting to doubt that there was ever going to be an explicit Elements Suite.

Brian seemed to record everything using the modular technique, even if there was no reason for him to do so. Cabinessence for example, was recorded in a single session, but Brian still recorded everything in separate takes.
He never really developed a consistent system for naming the different sections, but throughout 1966 he referred to things as "part 1", "part 2", "part 3" etc. For Brian "part 2" did not necessarily mean a second unique song, but the chorus of the same song. "Part 3" was the bridge, and "part 4" the fade. Of course the parts changed between different sessions, and there's no guarantee that the final song would have used part 2 as a chorus. At the end of the day though, I think the box set gives us plenty of reasons to question the whole "part 2" = separate track idea.

"The Elements: Part 1" doesn't really imply anything about the existence of an Elements Suite. Part 2 might have very likely been the pickup, the "blowing out" part. Given the two possibilities, I think we have to err with the one better supported by the facts. Given Brian's use of the "part x" in the labelling of other songs, I feel as if there is good reason to doubt the existence of fully formed suite.

In my view there's also a defensible point to be made that the ending of Fire is Air. Brian makes a big deal during the sessions that the drums need to "blow out" the basses. There's no strong evidence to support that, but as far as speculation goes, it seems just as valid as many of the other claims usually tossed around.

At the very least we can get a sense of how Brian conceptualized the different elements orchestrally. Like many composers he associated certain instruments with certain ideas or themes within his music. A perfect example is the harpsichord, which is so often used a symbol of innocence and childhood on Brian's recordings, When I Grow Up To Be A Man, You Still Believe In Me, and Wonderful are all clear demonstrations of that connection. On this particular track at least it appears that the basses were being associated with the fire, and the drums were being associated with the wind or the air.
I don't mean to be pedantic about this, I'm not saying that this applies universally to all the SMiLE music, or that every time a bass is heard on a Brian Wilson track it represents fire. It's just an idea that may be useful in understanding "The Elements" specifically.

In point of fact fire doesn't just happen in a vacuum. A fire needs oxygen and fuel, and it may very well be the case that "The Elements" already contains all four elements within itself. The violins, violas, and cellos could have been the fuel for example, the collapsing wooden buildings and barns destroyed by the fire.


My point in all this is not to say "This is what The Elements was, I know better than everyone else". I just wanted to raise some questions in order challenge the long-held belief that there would have been an explicit four part Elements suite.

hi Fishmonk - there are multiple reports from the time of a 4-part Elemnts suite - just have a look through LLVS

I'm not talking about the illustration at all. Look what is printed underneath: It quotes the lyric "My Vega-Tables" from a song called "The Elements". That is proof that Vega-Tables was originally considered part of The Elements, and what's more, VDP said the only part of The Elements that he worked on was Vega-Tables. I can't tell if Vega-Tables was later taken out of The Elements to be replaced by another composition, of if Vega-Tables only became a song of its own when The Elements was scrapped altogether.

The list, I doubt its significance. I'd say it was just thrown together on the spot, as the crossed out brackets prove. Shall we really put The Old Master Painter on there? Put it in brackets. No, it's OK, cross out the brackets. Just give them something so they see we're working.

Don't have that book, but I have read some of the interviews it probably contains. I think Vosse and Anderle both talk about a "suite", but they have no clue when it comes to any of the particulars.
People have been extrapolating the existence of a whole suite for years, it's really taken for granted at this point that such a plan existed to begin with. That assumption just seems to be less and less grounded the more I've thought about it.

Like Carol Kaye's insistence that Friday Night is "part 2" of The Elements, the comments of Vosse or Anderle are not exactly definitive proof of anything. They suggest the possibility, but in all honesty I think it's more than possible they were just misremembering a conversation in the same way that Carol Kaye did.

How about this for an Elemental "Suite"?  You start with Wind Chimes, like the Santa Ana's blowing gently and then big through the canyons.  You then have the fire caused by the high winds, with all that entails.  In the middle of the fire (at least on TSS version) you have the vocals floating eerily over the giant whine of the orchestra.  This could represent the water, as there is a whole blog post you could write about vocals equating with the water element.  After the fire has been put out, what starts to grow out of the parched ground, now renewed?  Vega-Tables.  It's been suggested before, but I think it's valid considering VDP quotes, Frank Holmes' drawings, and if you listen close enough, you get your own little workshop sounds at the beginning of Vega-Tables that fits very nicely with rebuilding after the fire.  Nature's destruction and creation all in one go.

I'm talking about the Brian Wilson from The Beach Boys, not the SF Giants.

 :p

Yes, that's a frequent description of The Elements. I don't particularly see Wind Chimes being part of that project, but who knows.

Yeah, that's what Dominic Priore thought. Considering we have no real idea what the suite was besides Fire, it is as good a way to complete the thought as any. But there is no way The Elements would have been listed as a separate track, if Vegetables and Wind Chimes (also listed as separate tracks) were to be a part of it.

COMMENT:

Don't miss all the CCW fun over at my thread . . .

Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
« Reply #1120 on: Monday, August 13, 2012, 04:13:19 PM »

~swd

Strongly disagree that anyone has been extrapolating or taking for granted that there was a plan for a four part suite.  Contemporary articles as late as April 67 (in LLVS) mention Brian was working on an Elements suite with earth, air, fire, water.  Do you think the journalists at the time were assuming this existed?  The idea of the suite came from Brian.  It was definitely planned as part of Smile.

What FORM the suite would have taken and how far along it was are the unresolved issues.  Maybe "the Elements" track on the album would have been only Fire, and the other Elements would be their own songs/ tracks arranged in a four song suite.  Vegetables might have been in the planned suite, then out, and never replaced by anything.  Maybe he never worked on air or earth or water.  We're left with a lot of speculation, but not if there was ever a plan for an Elements suite.

Remember that in the book "The Love You Make" by Peter Brown and Steven Gaines, they have a specific footnote on the page describing McCartney's visit to LA and the ensuing meeting at the studio as Brian was recording part of Vegetables, where it says Brian was working on a "Four Elements Suite".

This was early 80's, putting it into a context where the free-flowing nature of Smile factoids and inside tidbits didn't exist outside a much smaller group of fans...which means an author couldn't Google such a thing and then write that Brian was working on "The Four Elements Suite" in an attempt to be factual without having heard that information from someone who was either there or was close to someone who was there.

I guess the main point is that the notion of a "Four Elements Suite" unlike other Smile mythology didn't appear out of nowhere and it's a notion which has been written about for decades.

The main problem, yet again, would appear to be Brian's lack of knowing what such a Suite would be from one burst of creativity to the next burst of writer's block. It never fully developed into what I think Brian at certain points had envisioned.

And I always felt the 2003-04 revisiting/reworking of "The Elements" was a compromise...a simply terrific compromise, but not involving all of those sounds and ideas like the rhythmic chants and improvisations that we can hear on tapes from late '66. You can use the ingredients you have in your kitchen to cook up a terrific meal, but that doesn't mean you couldn't have made an even better meal after a trip to the grocery store to buy what you really wanted to use for the meal..

Just a friendly reminder for those who may have missed Mr. Desper's comment here earlier!

hi - no its definitely referenced multiple times in articles from 66/67,  a 4 part suite consisting of the 4 distinct elements

Yep.  And not that Brian's always trustworthy, but around the time of the TSS release I believe he also said the suite was VDP's idea.

I really wish I had a copy of that book.

It's a must have  8)