The Smiley Smile Message Board

First off, the album sounds amazing, SMiLE is the best record ever made and it finally feels as complete as possible.

But, my only complaints are with "Surf's Up".

First off, the Carl line. Not a major complaint just completely unnecessary..

Secondly, the beautiful ending has been destroyed, Purple chick had it right this just feels wrong.

Anyway, back to listening  ;D

The Carl line fits imo. Brian sang nothing during that part, Carl filled it in with a melody, I'm damn glad they used his vocal there instead of just using the same Brian vocal twice.

This is exactly the same as the '71 ending, but in mono. How does it not work?

I will say I'm disappointed that the vocal lags so often.

What is it that you don't like about the ending? It sounds almost the same as the '71 ending, which I love. I like they "ahhs" before "A children's song..." And the addition of Carl's vocal, however unnecessary, doesn't sound too bad. I love Surf's Up so much. Any version of it always blows my mind.

I just like how on purple chick it goes straight into "a children song", I find it really powerful

The SMiLE sessions version is not to my liking so I just added the Purple Chick ending to the 2011 version, sounds magnificent  ;D

The "a children's song" structure wasn't how it was originally recorded. The 71 ending and the 2011 ending are virtually identical sans stereo versus mono.

Same.

I hate when it goes straight into "a childrens song" it ruins the flow, and gets a bit "rough" too quick

Sorry, meant to say the "Purple Chick" ending..

Not fan of the 71 version at all

I like the fade in the 71 version, I always thought it was a really powerful way to end the album, one that JMZ's mix takes to a logical conclusion, though both are excellent. I don't recall the Purple Chick ending, but if it's identical to BWPS, with the swell of vocals instead of a fade, it's not bad, but I prefer the 71 mix as the first version I heard. Still haven't heard the TSS mix, so I can't comment, but I'll stick up for the 71 mix.

Well, I'll just add that I don't like Brian's demo vocal on it. The vocal is not polished at all. It sounds rough. I will be swapping this out with the 71 version forth with.

His vocal is rough? Psshhhh. You trollin'. It's a demo vocal, but it's still great.

I think this is probably my favorite version of Surf's Up ever. The BWPS one is fantastic, and the '71 version is the one I grew up on. This new version has grown on me this last week and I really love the ending.

No trolling. If you listen to a song for 40 years and you really like it, no way they are going to improve it with a demo vocal. I understand that they had to do it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

That's fair. I was going to add that if anyone liked Carl's vocal better, I couldn't blame them. Still, I think Brian's vocal is one of the best he's done. Just because it's taken from what is kind of a demo doesn't mean it's rough or underperformed or anything.

Carl's falsetto on Columnated Ruins Domino sounds nicer and more on pitch or something than Brian. Brian sounds a bit off on Domino. You and I both know that the song would have been sung perfectly had a proper vocal session been done.

Hyper hyped-up, previously unhearth songs, usually do not live up the expectations risen by the hypers.

Soulful ol man. Meh
Oh lord. Meh
Lazy lizzie. Meh
Little red book. Meh x 2
clangin. Meh

And on and on.

You're referring to what, exactly?

Also, we don't have "Clangin'".

Yeesh.  Can't please 'em all, I guess.  Why am I so not surprised......

I like all of those except Clangin

Arrangement or mix wise, there are 4 songs that I am not overly thrilled with on disc one; Look, CITFOTM, Surf's Up and Wind Chimes (mainly the ending). Though the sonics on all are terrific, there are better versions of these tunes on boots, the Surf's Up album, and the 93 Box Set. I don't dislike any of them, just not the best versions.

Honesty, I haven't heard the box yet, but, we're getting fantastic quality mixes of songs featuring some parts we haven't even heard in 44 years.


Mine could come with no music on it and I'd still be happy.

IT'S SMiLE, RELEASED.

I'm not unhappy at all. With having heard so much of this stuff over the last 20 years, it was bound to happen that I would like something different than what is offered here.

:\ uhhh.

Well... Maybe just SU 1967 haha

Smile released with no music is not Smile.

Yes knocking Brian's demo amounts to heresy in my opinion.  The heretic must now be lobbed with an assortment of Vega-Tables.  :lol ;)

Then a heretic, I am. Thankfully, I don't have to go through an Inquisition. I've already been called a heathen, so why not a heretic, as well. ;)

It's okay, the worst that can happen to you is we make you jump in the pool.  You can also drink as much fresh water as you want before you take the plunge.  :)

I'm going to be in NY this weekend.  Have New Yorkers gotten the vote yet?

We've been so conditioned to listening to Surf's Up (Demo, 71, BWPS) over the years that maybe it's best we take a step back before assessing this new mix. I'm betting that once the novelty wears off, this new mix will be better appreciated.

For Sure, the entire box for that matter, remember when BWPS came out? and people argued about what belonged? Well, likewise :D

I appear to be in the minority but I absolutely love the new mix, each to their own though.

The words "disappointed" and "Surf's Up" should at no time ever be used in the same sentence.

I don't like the sped up Mickey Mouse scat vocals on Dada.

I don't like Barnyard or Great Shape. I don't think the Harv fly in can be done in a convincing manner.

The added vocals to Look add nothing. I really wish they had let it be.

I guess that's my whole beef. The fly-ins. They don't mesh and I find them distracting. In several cases I find them all together unecessary. Fire and Look played fine without them. The general public could have handled an instrumental track or two.

Ever since the GV box we've been waiting for those remaining tracks with high quality sound, and now we get them, except they have been tweaked. Now we have Smile on vinyl...but just of the songs that are tweaked. I understand the intent, just with I could have the raw tracks in mono as well.

I know...."roll my own" from the sessions. But in some cases I'm not sure it's going to be that easy.

Grateful for the box. Don't want to be a wet blanket.

Agree 100%. Will add that with IIGS and Barnyard, i don't think it's a matter of Linett and Boyd doing poor work--i think that it simply cannot be done in a way that sounds good at all. I don't think anyone can make this sound good. It is inherently a bad idea and not conducive to sounding good for its intended purpose. For example, in Great Shape, Brian just barely even utters the words "of the agriculture/of the upper country/of the open country." That trailing off sounds really, really bad and there's nothing that can be done about it. That demo recording is simply not usable. Poor recording, poor performance, different tempo, different feel, piano locked into the mono recording. So why even use it then? It's just a disaster.

Smile is largely instrumental due to the nature of the project being unfinished. I don't know what the point is in trying to mask that fact, trying to dupe the general public. And as was stated above, it was the one and only opportunity to ever get this stuff in high quality on an official release...but some of the songs are f***ed with. That's a monumental blunder in my book. Really, if you step back and put the excitement of this release aside, it is clear that there were some very unprofessional decisions that were made. 

Because there has already been a finished version released, an attempt was made to use as many bits as possible to offer as many vocals as possible. That's the point.


Unprofessional? Hardly. Decisions that we may not agree with, perhaps. But the first disc was always going to be an attempt to present as close to a finished album as possible, using material that was as contemporaneous as possible. That's simply a sensible commercial proposition.

I think it's the best of it's sort I've heard. Seems a bit more natural than, say, Purple Chick. Tag in mono doesn't move me as much, strangely. It's the one moment I think to myself, 'I wish this part was in stereo' but that's my only quibble.

I've never heard the JMZ Smile mix that everyone seems to be raving about, but I think it's really stupid that people keep on comparing songs to the JMZ version or the Purple Chick version. Just because that's what they're used to.

I get it, I do. You listen to a certain version of a song, no matter how unofficial, and it gets in your head that that's how the song goes. A lot of my friends are in bands and many of them have no studio recordings and I see them live fairly often and I have "definitive" versions of their songs in my head made up from sections of previous performances pieced together in my mind, and every time I see the song live it doesn't live up to the version in my head. But the version in my head doesn't really exist, and it's stupid to expect it.

and Purple Chick's version of Surf's Up is just the version in her (his?) head, but she was able to use technology to make other people be able to hear it too (by the way, you would think the people who make these fanmixes would be active in the online community a bit more). so then the idealized version in her head becomes the definitive version to a lot of people, who then, when they hear the officially-released versions, there's that discrepancy in their mind.

I wrote most of this like three hours ago and then I stepped away for awhile so I can't remember what my final concluding point was gonna be.

I'm a little confused. So does the tag on Surf's Up follow the same formula as the '71 version or does it go straight into "a children's song" just like on BWPS? I'm a much bigger fan of the former.

True, but I've often wondered what would be the problem with presenting Smile '67 as something like:

Our Prayer/Gee
Heroes and Villains
My Only Sunshine
Cabin Essence
Vegetables
Wonderful
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
Surf's Up
Wind Chimes
Good Vibrations
You're Welcome

Maybe throw in parts of "Cool, Cool Water" or "Diamond Head" or whatever if you're feeling crazy and need some water with your Smile. You could use a couple of the weird humor attempts as skits to fill out the running time, maybe placing them with some of the unused instrumentals. Add in the rest of the songs as bonuses. If you ask me, that's better than the trying to mimic BWPS, which took an everything and the kitchen sink approach that really highlights the unfinished quality of some of the other songs.

Seriously, did you read the header of this topic? You shouldn't be surprised. Some things work very nice to me and some things don't. No Big deal. And guess what, none of the producers are going change anything about the release. So, if you love everything, you are in luck. I never criticized the sound, just the mixes. Over the years, I've heard all these tracks presented all different kind of ways. Some worked, some did not. I don't hate any of it, I'm just not thrilled with a couple things, is all.

Just a thought: does anyone think Brian might have let Carl take the lead vocal on "Surf's Up" in 67? Given that we don't have a recording of the fully-arranged version with a Brian lead (which he could have easily done, given that he was in the studio when it was being recorded), and that Brian also gave Carl the lead vocal on the centrepiece of Pet Sounds.
It's pretty unlikely I guess, but any thoughts?

I've always wondered this, really. Same goes for "Barnyard", "I'm In Great Shape", "Child Is The Father Of The Man", etc. - who the f*** were actually meant to sing these songs? Two takes of "Wonderful" with two different vocalists only makes one wonder even more.

Also, on that note, I've always wondered if part of Mike's resentment over the project draws from the fact that he has lead vocals on short sections of two whole songs. Damn.

Yeah - I don't think Brian would be singing every lead on the album save You Are My Sunshine and Wind Chimes. That being said, he certainly sang Surf's Up a lot. It seemed to be particularly tailored to him performing it. But who knows?

I think that Mike, as the lead singer who could only sing onstage for the most part, probably would have gotten at least Barnyard and maybe Child. I think it's interesting that in defending Mike, some people say, "well, he DID sing those lyrics" but it is worth noting that he actually doesn't sing a single lead.

First time I heard the tag I thought it was different to the '71, but you're right.  I can honestly say I was not disappointed with ANYTHING on the box.  The more I listen to the mixes, the more I like them.

This is as stupid as getting hung on official stuff by any means, just because it's official, comes from Mark Linett or whatever (this is not an attack, I'm a big admirer of M. Linett and have a deep respect for him).

What happens from what I read here and there is that some people seem to overlook fan mixes, just because "you know, it's not the real thing, it can't be as good, this is all pitch-shifting and such". And sometimes without even hearing the mixes, just like you said:


But why some people couldn't have the right to prefer a fan mix over the official stuff ? It's all a question of personnal taste and people have the right express their preference. You can't blame them for that or obligate them not to listen to fan mixes.

SMiLE is an exception in that: it's -to my knownledge- the only musical phenomenon that got so much to do with its public over the years.

And remember Mister Linett's "roll your own" line.  ;)

Yes, I agree, but there's one interesting thing with what people call the "Piano Demo" (track 9 of CD2 from the TSS 2CDs version): to me it's not really what we could call a demo or even a guide vocal track:

1) Brian's voice is doubled, he recorded his voice twice (and it's not ADT)
2) Brian sings really well on it, it's not the "humble Harv" tape type of singing see what I mean ?
3) Everything is well recorded, the piano sounds very well, there's reverb.


So what I mean is: at this point (12/15/66) maybe Brian planned to release it as is, or with further vocals or instrumental overdubs, but this could've been the core track of Surf's Up, implying that he would've sing the lead.

It's certainly odd that the version referred to in the box set as the "Piano demo" was recorded over a month after the fully-arranged "first movement" session. Maybe at that time Brian was envisaging the 2nd movement being a solo take, and he needed a "run up" to tackle the performance. While maybe Carl would have handled the first movement. Or maybe Brian just enjoyed playing the song? If you'd written such a breathtaking piece of music, you'd want to play it as often as possible, wouldn't you? Maybe that explains the Wild Honey-era recording. We'll never know. (Thinks: wonder if there's a "Friends"-era version?)
Besides, on reflection, Carl already had the lead on two of the pivotal recordings on Smile: Good Vibes and (can we assume?) Cabin Essence.

Hey JMZ, I guess it could come off as insulting for me to say it's stupid for someone to like your mix over Mark's. That's not what I really meant to say. I think someone disliking Mark's mix because it's not pieced together like their favorite fanmix is a little silly. If you read the rest of my earlier post I explained myself a little better.

I still don't understand why you tell that. It's a situation you can't avoid, SMiLE is somewhat unique for that. Some fans can do their own mix and some other fans can express their likes and dislikes. You know, it's a democratic thing and personnaly I think it's great.

And as Mark Linett humbly said himself: the official CD1 of TSS is "just" his take on SMiLE. And fans have the right to like it or not, or to prefer it over Purple Chick's mix or mine, or to compare, etc.

Being silly is to say: "You must love Mark Linett version above any other" or "Mark Linett's version is inevitably better, because it's the official version". No: the only thing that is objectively better is sound quality (for obvious reasons). The rest belongs to each one's personnal taste.

Well said my man

Not sure you can say its ML's version - it is the BW/BBs version - thinking about it where did he say it was just his take????

Yes definitely not a demo and the idea of an 'unplugged' SU amongst all that heavy orchestration is most appealing

PS love your mix by the way

With most albums I would agree that it might be silly, but not so with Smile. The boots and the fan mixes have been around too long. Smile has been a "roll your own" album for over 25 years.  I've different mixes of certain songs that I prefer over what is on Disc 1. Like I stated about Surf's Up, after hearing Carl sing it for 40 years, I cannot get used to hearing Brian sing Part 1. Though I do like the way he sings on the '67 demo. It's all in what you are used to; we humans are funny that way. ;)

Won't that make the Surf's Up LP that much more special now, with the unique Carl vocal?

Yeah, you're right, he didn't say that in his own words, my mistake.  :bow

But on the "Icon Fetch" (excellent) interview: http://www.iconfetch.com/great-music-interviews/2011-shows/418-mark-linett-beach-boys-smile-part-two-interview.html (http://www.iconfetch.com/great-music-interviews/2011-shows/418-mark-linett-beach-boys-smile-part-two-interview.html) starting around 14'50" to 15'46" you know the (already famous) part where he says that Alan and him did their approved version "with some changes" it's not exactly like BWPS, but "if you feel the Mona Lisa looks better turned upside-down [...] now you cn roll your own".

I think the problem with a lot of TSS criticism is confusing a preference for a particular sequence for criticism of the sound quality and construction.

It is not silly to argue that you prefer JMZ's mix, or AlternateBrianWilson's mix, or Purple Chick's mix, because these are the ones you're used to, and Disc 1 isn't necessarily going to live up to well-ingrained memories. That's part of the fun, really. But lots of people are arguing that it doesn't sound good, period, and that is silly.

Whether you like Disc 1 or not, it is still respectfully, expertly mixed and edited, presented at a higher quality than any bootleg or fan mix. This is not disputable, and expressing an artistic preference for a fan mix does not have to come at Disc 1's expense.

The new Surfs Up is very nice and all. You can never have too many versions.

However, if the1967 version was the one we'd had for years, and the '66 demo was the new discovery, then I'd imagine the excitement would be much greater. It is more fully realized, and the tempo changes are perfect.

I'm always happy for any new SMiLE though.

I totally agree with you. Aegir though, was referring to ML's mixes, not it's fidelity. None of Mark's mixes are unlistenable. Most of my issues are with the endings of the songs. Using different pieces that I'm not used to hearing and stuff like that. Also, I think the mastering and fidelity are terrific of what I've heard, so far. No issues with that whatsoever. Though I'm sure some will think it too loud, not loud enough, too trebley, not enough treble, too bassy, not enough bass, etc. After tomorrow, I'm sure the Hoffman Board will run amuck with all of these criticisms.

I'll be sure to stop by.

Yeah, and I'll just elaborate that I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, more just observing a general trend on the board. With regards to Aegir's post though, what I neglected to say is that criticism isn't always read the way it was intended. Just recently I accidentally misconstrued a preference for a fan mix as some kind of knock against Disc 1 as a whole, and wanted to make sure that wasn't the case.

I remember dreaming some time ago that I heard the 1967 "Surf's Up" and thinking "Well, it's good, but nothing earth-shattering."

I've since heard it from start to finish, thanks to the YouTube posting....the only think I don't like about it is the random pops that apparently is from the iTunes download. (Yet another argument for CDs...) And it's done the way I think it should be: Brian by himself with his mid-60's voice. That's why my dream version of "Surf's Up" would be the 1966 piano demo but with the vocal harmonies joining in at the end. (Still gotta have the harmonies!) The fully-orchestratedness just takes away from the emotion.

One thing that really, really got me with this 1967 version: listen to how Brian performs on the word "tough." Wow.

Also, really love how Brian comes back to the chord-every-beat playing earlier than we're used to.

And something I just can't help but think...SOMEBODY had to know about this session. Brian was obviously not alone (unless he was talking to himself at the end). You would think that, given the importance of "Surf's Up" and how much fans love the song, that someone would have mentioned it..."Ya know, I seem to remember Brian recording it by himself later on..." I'm guessing Carl must have heard it, given how he sang "Canvass the town and brush the backdrop..." the same way Brian did in this demo, and whatever engineer was in the studio...and there were usually MULTIPLE people in the control room, right?

That's the first thing I thought when I heard him sing that at the end of the second verse - it makes a lot more sense that Carl heard Brian sing it this way, and thus decided to sing that melody later.  That makes a lot more sense than them just coming up with it out of thin air.

I mentioned somewhere else that I think Carl's voice would have suited the B section (Dove nested towers etc..) much better than Brian's voice.

whoa i disagree with that completely.  In fact, I don't think the song is suited to carl at all.  This is a brian song through and through. 

I was quite speechless upon hearing "Surf's Up 1967 (Solo Version)"....amazing!

Interestingly, even before having heard the 93 box set "demo", I could never get used to Carl singing that first part... So that's fine for me now.


And so do I. Funny, ain't it? :)

And since I heard David Crosby sing the "Surf's Up mmmmhh..." line, I think Mike would have been perfect for that one.

What do you mean "get used too"? For 22 years there was no other version available to listen to. Now, if you only started listening to both versions around '93 then I can see where you are coming from, but my 22 year head start had me completely taken by Carl's lead vocal.

What YouTube posting? It doesn't seem to be there.

Taken down due to copyright claim by EMI. That would include the other uploads for The SMiLE Sessions also.

Personally, I think the new Surf's Up sounds great.  Sure it's not perfect, but putting Brian in lead with Carl sprinkled on top... uh... that's pretty cool.  Really cool.  Haven't gotten far enough into the CD yet to hear the '67 version.

Somebody just quoted this Friends-era interview with Brian the other day and it really struck me as significant in light of "Surf's Up 1967", and the question of why it was recorded...

Not to discredit this appearing on an official release, but you lot are aware this has been done a dozen or so times before and done well, right?

No.  We weren't aware of that.  Only you knew that. 

I love that the bells/cascade guitar and "trumpet swan" were finally brought out and clear.  It sounds great.  that was one of my big problems with '71.  helllooooo new definitive cut

:O

Got the set today and managed to avoid all samples to hear the tracks with as fresh ears as possible!

Personally speaking I quite liked what they did with Surf's Up, thought it was done really well.

I was a bit apprehensive about the 1967 Surf's Up as a couple people were a little underwhelmed by it but man for me hearing that was deep and moving, the way Brian sang each high 'domino' was so sweet and in my imagination that it how he would have sang that word on a finished 1966 production if he ever did a proper vocal for it.  'A children's song' line was so gorgeous as well.

I'd also add that while it clearly is Brian I can definitely see why a chap a few days ago thought it sounded like Carl in certain parts; indeed I played it to my Mum who was surprised when I told her it was Brian singing when she asked.

Is it just me or is the timing completely of on the vocals for the new surfs up? I cut quite alot in cubase and this is just poor sync, it is lagging and makes me feel uneasy each time i hear it.

I wouldn't say it's poorly synced. It's an intentional lag, and it wouldn't be wrong to sing the song that way, but having other versions ingrained in your head doesn't help. Give it some time before you go cutting it up -- I thought it was weird when I first heard it, too.

Nah - sung behind the beat with some syncopation

We have got so used to everything lined up with a click track that we have forgotten what a human being sounds like

I think it's fine. From what I've heard, to get it 'bang on' requires more pitch-shifting/time stretching than I suppose Linett & Boyd were comfortable with. You'd be complaining if it was full of digital artefacts too, I suppose.

I get the syncopation bit, but whatever murry says it sounds wrong!

Shouldn't the sync up job be at least as good as Anne wallace's?

Sounds fine to me. not laggy at all.

"Mike, as the lead singer who could only sing onstage for the most part"

What does that mean, exactly??

It means that while the other band members could play an instrument, Mike couldn't aside from tambourine or the odd sax break.

Got it!

And let's not forget some thremin shredding too!

Gazooks! How could I? I believe we call it the "woo woo machine."  :)

I always thought Brian's voice was a bit rough on the TV version. Not bad just a bit shrill or raw. In the new one on the main part of the album, it took me a few plays to really get into it. The 1971 sections seemed jarring but now I like the blend of the 1966 boot version(s) and the implimentation of the 1971 vocals. It's well done.

I agree with you completely. That is an album Brian could have released in '67. I don't like the BWPS sequencing one bit.

Not really, sans the "brother John" part which they went full of time stretching with and is even more apparent on the stereo mix. Otherwise, it's just a matter of cutting the vocal in a few spots and moving it slightly. Considering everything else they did in the way of pitch-shifting and time stretching, I doubt the lag was done due to reservations.

The sync, to me (and to many others), is indeed very laggy and off.

I just listened to the vinyl stereo mix and give it the 'thumbs up!'

Sounds great to me.  I love the retention of Carl's vocal; it seems appropriate in that he made that song his own in '71.  It's also nice to hear the two brothers' voices one after another.

I'll agree with that (although I still think they nicked that from my fan mix on YouTube when cleaning it out, the bastards!!!!!!111 *)

(* not bastards)

Also, yeah, "Barnyard" with Mike seems right, somehow.

Erm, that sounds a bit too democratic to me. At this point, the large majority of songs were led by Mike or Brian. Dennis, Carl, and Al had the odd lead, but there was nothing that would suggest that Brian was going to hand out 2 vocals to Dennis, 2 to Al, and 4 to Carl on one album.

Maybe not quite that democratic, but then consider that Carl sang like every single vocal ever on Smiley Smile and at least 99% of all songs on albums after that.