The Smiley Smile Message Board

Is that Paul?

Just saw this

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/390607_10150889554070037_640195036_21402177_1360120222_n.jpg

I *DO find myself confused by Vegatables.  I mean, what makes them different from a fruit?  Fruit always taste so sweet, and watery, and juicy, but vegatables are always so dry, and bland, and sometimes bitter even.  Don't give me that nonsense about them being a root, either, because roots are WHERE a plant gets it's water, they ought to be juicy. 

I've never personally liked vegetables myself. Guess I can save my postage that would've went to Brian  :lol

For the mix on TSS (one of the few I've heard...I'm trying to be a good American here  :P) I really dig it. It sounds like something Brian would have come up with during SMiLE. Especially like "Sleep a lot" being the chorus in particular followed by the tag (dig that uke/banjo?)

Huh?  There's a version on there where Sleep a Lot is the chorus?  Dammit is it going to be on the 2cd set?  I want to hear that but I'm not taking the big plunge on the big box. 

There is no scientific difference between fruits and vegetables. It's a culinary (and in some cases legal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Hedden)) distinction.

I was being half hearted but good to know.  I guess that would explain why Lettuce is a vegatable but it grows above the ground.  lol.

Sleep a lot is the chorus for the disc 1 version so yes.

Very cool.  So they deviate from the BWPS more than we first thought, I suppose?

From what I've heard from the people on the board here, it is the case for a few tracks.

What's the deal with the Vega-Tables Demo? Even though I have tons of SMiLE boots, this didn't seem familiar at all...there's even different lyrics!

I too am curious about the Veggies Demo - basically the same as the Cornucopia Demo on the Archeology Lost SMiLE Sessions boot but with additional lyrics and vocals. Has the Veggies Demo on TSS been bootlegged anywhere before?

It's the Cornucopia version. I've heard this before, but in much worse quality. You likely heard an incomplete mix or something.

Thanks but where has that particular version of the Veggies "Cornucopia" Demo been bootlegged previously? Its not the same version as on the Archeology boot and to my knowledge the Archeology boot was the first commercial source of the Cornucopia Demo.

Don't know offhand - what vocals etc. are missing on the Archeology mix? I know I have this somewhere.

Awright, the Archeology version is the same recording as this version, but a different mix. All vocals etc. are present in both mixes as far as I can tell.

Holy sh*t, is Mike doing lead on the verses of this version?

Mike: I'm gonna be 'round my vegetables, I'm gonna chow down my vegetables
Brian: I like you most of all...
Mike: My fav-o-rite vegetable!

Never noticed it before, thought it was all Brian, but I'm 99.99999999999% sure that's Mike now.

Brief botany lesson.

Fruits all contain seeds and have 3 different layers - the exocarp, mesocarp and endocarp, with the seed inside the endocarp. A drupe is a fruit in which the mesocarp is fleshy and the endocarp is hardened into a stone (the exocarp being the skin of the fruit). If you crack the stone open, you will find the soft seed inside. A good example would be peaches, plums and indeed, olives.

The thing about all fruits is that they have their seeds on the inside. The strawberry has little 'pips' on the outside which non botanists think are the seeds, but are actually the fruits - if you open them, the seeds inside are tiny, and look like little more than dust. The big, red squashy thing that you eat is not derived from any part of the flower's ovaries, which it needs to be to qualify as being part of the fruit - it's a swollen receptacle, which is the bit that the ovaries sit on, and it's the ovaries that go to form the fruit, which is why they are on the outside. They are known as 'false fruits' or 'spurious fruits'.

Bananas are fruits, even though they don't appear to have seeds inside. Wild bananas do have large seeds, but the ones we buy have been bred with tiny, shriveled seeds.

And while we're at it, tomatoes, cucumbers, squashes, gourds, pumpkins and peppers are all fruits, not vegetables, whatever your greengrocer tries to tell you. Whilst pineapples and rhubarb are vegetables, not fruits.

And, unlike fruit, there is no scientific definition of a vegetable.

This new mix of Vegetables is absolutely incredible. One of the highlights of The SMiLE Sessions for me.

I've taken a much closer listen to the Archaeology Demo and you are right the vocals are there but they much, much, much lower in the mix, in fact the first ones which occur at 0.30 on TSS Demo are almost inaudable on the Archaeology set. The Archaeology Demo sounds like its from a very hissy acetate.

Hey... you may be right!

+1

Yep, I didn't notice this until I read it on the main board a few months back.  I believe it was AGD who mentioned it, and I couldn't believe it, but then I listened and, lo and behold, there's Mike.  It's perfectly in line with Brian's love of vocal handoffs during this time - he'd do the same thing with "Heroes" a few months later, as heard on the box.

It's confirmed in the liner notes as well. "Lead vocal: Mike and Brian"

I never spotted that! Mike on such a sloppily played track - heading for Smiley Smile already!

Speaking of the Vega-Tables demo, does anybody else's copy have a bad skip at 59 seconds in?

Mine is fine.

And mine

I this Vega-Tables is a really key track.

There's a lot to be written on this, but I think you see -- across the stretch of the Smile sessions -- a conscious move by Brian away from the session guys and toward a very stripped down instrumental sound.

Vega-Tables is mainly a piano, some bass and percussion. Almost nothing else. The vocals do incredibly elaborate things, of course, but it's a real shift from the Spector-styled H&V verses. You can see how Smiley Smile was not a departure at all -- it was a logical extension of a approach that Brian had been working on for months.

I've actually always thought that they both were signing all the lines simultaneously, especially on "I" of the second line, I really hear two different voices (if you don't count the other twelve I have in my head)

this is my first time hearing the mix of this track

if one of todays "super producers" like Timbaland came out with something like this, he'd be heralded as cutting edge, or leading the way.

BW was doing this back in 67 - AMAZING

+2

I have to say one of the most amazing things on the box set is CD4 track 1 - VT Fade - never heard that before and just amazing orchestration - has an H&V feel to it IMHO - somethign for my roll your own

Agreed - I hadn't either, but it's just an amazing piece of music.  You hit the nail on the head, the version they start out with on that track is very cinematic, in a very "Heroes" kind of way.

No mention so far of the "Vega-Tables" on the 45 in the box -- it's a completely different mix than the disc one "album" version.

Right, like the "stereo mix", it eliminates the opening piano notes and starts right with lead vocal...and throws in the "roll all around, make a hole in the ground" vocals right after the first "my favorite vegetables" line! The "going to bust the buttons right off of my shirt" vocal shows up during the scat vocal section just prior to the "candy bar" verse. Personally, I think this second line would sound better coming after the second "my favorite vegetables" line, but it was fun to discover these nonetheless.

I'm thrilled that we finally have a fully realized SMiLE version of this song complete with both "Sleep A Lot" choruses and the fade out. For me, it's the biggest success on the new box.

Also, those backing vocals on the demo version (the ones flown in to the 45 single cut) are among the most amazing things I've heard the Beach Boys do vocally. I really wish we could have had a track devoted to the recording session of them. Have the sessions survived?

The "dig a hole in the ground"/"buttons right off of my shirt" vocal, to my ears, transformed into the little laughing ascending/descending thing going on in the 2nd verse ("I'm gonna keep well...") of the final. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm sure the multitrack for this one exists given how different the mix sounds to the mix we had before. I doubt the vocal session for this is terribly fascinating. I thought about this earlier, wishing we had stuff like the vocal attempts for the Pet Sounds album until realizing the only reason we have so many attempts at these little acapella bits etc. was due to the nature of the Smile sessions - sections and all that. The "Vege-Tables" demo wasn't recorded as such, though, just a single instrumental take with vocals over it.

So far the CD 1 version of Vegatables is a highlight of the set for me.  Love it.

You also have to remember that Brian was in the habit, although obviously not exclusively, of starting the tape over after each take of vocals - iirc, that's the reason Mark and Alan give for there being no Pet Sounds vocal sessions, besides the Al and Mike IKTAA takes. That could explain some of the omissions.

Virtually everything I've heard in the last 10 years that has been hailed as "cutting edge" is, in fact, SMiLE influenced.  And yes, I'd say this is the best ding-dang-ding-dang-a-ding-dong "Vega-Tables" I've ever heard.  Great editing job.

The more I listen to it the more I feel that Mark Linnett and Alan Loyd messed up. It's a lousy performance on their part and it's disrespectful to BW.

The tempo is off, doesn't sound "tight". And it's way too long.

Well, since you've only been a fan for three months, perhaps you'd have a different perspective coming to this point over a few decades. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, "Vegetables" on SMILEY SMILE was all that was out there. It was fun, but reportedly there was an earlier SMiLE version that was bigger in scope. In 1993, the GOOD VIBRATIONS BOX SET included an attempt at a SMiLE edit which resulted in a very loose, not very convincing version including a very improbable crossfade to the "Fade To Vegetables" section. With the bootleg SOT releases we began hearing different backing tracks cut for the "Sleep a lot" sections that sounded more interesting than just that piano banging away. The BWPS version felt more together, but ended abruptly to make for a smooth transition into "On A Holiday".

So, finally, with TSS we have a version that tightens up the main piano/bass backing track and vocals (realistically, these were only going to be so tight since Brian was well on his way to his less precise, sloppier SMiLEY SMILE approach) plus the new version incorporates the "sleep a lot" choruses complete with both backing tracks and figures out a way to elegantly move into the must-have "Fade To Vegetables". For me the TSS "Vega-Tables" is the version I've waited over 30 years to hear.

I think putting in that fast take of "Do A Lot" is what messes the flow of the song up. It just doesn't fit the tempo. My version would using that rough piano take of "Do A Lot" from the Good Vibrations box set for the first round of the chorus, and I'd cut out the repeating "I know that you'd feel better..." verse, going straight from the acapella take to the outro. I'd also try to get that weird ice cream truck sounding overdub onto the first half of the song.

That might just sum up my feelings as well.  The more I hear this version, the more I love it.  I certainly don't feel like it's in any way an insult to Brian.  And apparently, Brian didn't think so either.  After all, these new masters all had to pass his approval.

Agreed, and adding that this version is possibly the Smile song I've been waiting for, as I have to say it's the real high point of the album. And considering how good the versions of Surf's Up and Worms and Dada are (and, really, just about all of the tracks except possibly Great Shape are excellent), that's high praise, I'd say. A perfect second single for an incredible album.

That is a very good outline. I didn't really put it in that perspective. The problem for me was that I was basically expecting the BWPS-version with the 67-vocals.

And when it isn't that tight (and so long).....

As Roger pointed out, that solution for getting the Fade to Vegetables tag in there is a nice one. Cool how they followed the ending of the Smiley version, then added the fade after "insert (part 4)" :)

The tempo change of the first chorus is jarring. Again, I don't understand why that take was used.

Before I begin, I just want to say that I LOVE the SMiLE boxset and I think it's a brilliant, well-made, expertly put together set, full of hevenly goodies - HOWEVER, I was I've got to admit disappointed with the Vegetables sessions tracks, namely because their seemed to be quite a lot missing, stuff that I'd been really looking forward to hearing on an official release. Where were the takes of Marilyn singing? Where was the gorgeous chiming instrumentation, as heard breifly on the fade of the Smiley Smile version? I've heard demos online of this section that were terrific and was surprised they weren't on the box. (Also, re Cabin Essense - would also have liked to have heard Dennis' chant in isolation. But hey, sure everyone's got things they would've liked to have been on the box that weren't included... But you gotta moan a little bit eh?)

The tape containing Brian's attempt at overdubbing the keyboard/xylophone part onto the fade of the SMILEY SMILE "Vegetables" is actually missing from the archives (one of the few known to be stolen outright since excerpts appear on the bootleg SOT SMiLE sessions). Reportedly, the producers did include the occasional bootleg-sourced element in the new set for completion's sake, but chose not to do so for the "Vegetables" sessions. This tape being missing is another reason why the overdub has not been included in any remixes, stereo or otherwise.

As to "Truck Drivin' Man" vocal - I believe the only version that exists is the one already mixed into the 20/20 master. It can only be isolated electronically which I presume the producers felt was not suitable fidelity-wise to include in an official set.

It's not a case of a multi-track missing, rather it was a Brian overdub simultaneously added to the mono mix (as appears on the original "Smiley Smile" album version). 

Thanks for the correction, c-man. If I had thought longer on it, I would have realized the evidence is right there on the tape as that section is played through repeatedly as Brian attempts to incorporate the new part in the mix. So, given that this xylophone (?) part never existed on an isolated track, it could not be included in remixes.

Didn't Alan say that this tape was missing from the archives, though? I thought that was one of the few known to be missing (as opposed to being destroyed in the 60s or never existing in the first place).

I love every version of Vega-Tables on this box, the demo, the 'album' version, stereo remix and of course the exclusive 45 mix which to me is the best mix of Vega-Tables in existence, the 'dig a hole in the ground' and 'pop the buttons right off my shirt' parts are just superb.

Is the 45 mix in mono or stereo?  EDIT
Thanks!

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I find asking for PM's openly on this board tricky enough, but openly requesting up/downloads is one bridge too far, SloopJohnB52.

This is kinda out of left field, but has anybody (tried) to sync the "Heroes and Villains: Part 2 Revised" with the Veggies fade? I don't care if you have to do a bit of pitch & speed shifting, it'd sound really cool.

Muh. Maybe I'll find an old copy of Logic I have laying around and try it.

I did something like that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZoIY8bdNNo

So you are the one who made SMiLE A.D. mixes. Well man, I have to say they are absolutely brilliant. I listen to the 4.0 more than anything these days. It's a genius approach, scrapping what might have been, which is of course impossible overall, and presenting an interpretation that gives the feeling of a coherent, had-it-been-completed, feeling! And the mini-mix here, again. With all the recurring melodies and themes, I've thought how interesting it'd be to hear them put together. To you sir, a humble bow.  :)

Ah, this is cool, but not quite what I meant.

The Part 2 Revised is the Bicycle Rider theme, but in a different key. I think. Don't feel like listening right now.

Even if it took some time/pitch shifting, I think it would sound REALLY cool over the fade. There's a bit of it on the fade sessions, and I wish it would have continued.

Hmm. As far as I know that H&V Pt 2 section sounds the closest to Bicycle Rider, but I could be having a brain fart. As much as I'm acquainted with the music itself, I'm not too up on the titles of the sections.  If you want to hit me with some audio samples, I'd definitely like to check it out. I'm always up for new ideas on Smile mixes.


Thanks so much man! Glad you dig the mixes.  ;D

Yes, it is.
Paul joined in on the Vega-Tables sessions and even helped to provide some of the vegetable chewing noises.

According to Alan Boyd, his voice is nowhere to be found on the session tape. ;(

I was under the impression that the myth of Macca 'playing' the celery (let alone singing) on "Vegetables" was debunked long ago?

Don't think it was ever proven either way – there appears to be no evidence, though some members of the band still spout the story during interviews (which seems to be a "hey, we hung out with the Beatles" thing, a bit like GOK being Macca's favourite song, "I went to Rishikesh" and "I showed the Beatles how to write Back in the USSR").

Marilyn even mentioned Paul being on Vegetables in her essay in the book... not sure why she would have any reason to lie.

(http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z353/SupremeKingDan/Vege-Tables_zpsa3aa5dcc.jpg)

where'd ya take that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vega-Tables#Performers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vega-Tables#Performers)

:lol

Paul was certainly at the sessions for Vega-Tables, as he played some versions of Pepper tracks for Brian as Paul was hearing the Smile songs. You could argue he may have tracked some celery (though it is hard to hear anyone specific besides maybe Carl or Al in the 1st Verse instrumental, but clearly there are a bunch of people talking and laughing), but don't worry I'll hope in my time machine and take plenty of videos of the Smile sessions when I get a chance.

Not sure if this is news or not, but I found something interesting about VegeTables in the booklet with the 2-CD version and the vinyl booklet. There is large artwork for VegeTables near the end of both and, in the bottom right corner, is says '"My Vege-tables' The Elements."

So.. I guess that means it's meant for The Elements Suite...

I would have included a picture, but all I have is my phone and the resolution would have just been difficult to read.

I believe Vegetables was the Earth part at one point (probably the cornucopia version) but was turned into a stand alone track after they missed the deadline to deliver the album to Capitol.

Or Frank Holmes goofed. Or VDP goofed when he told Frank about it. I don't buy VT as an element. Very forced connection, imho.


Thank you for pointing this out. I've come to see the transition as more nuanced as well, but I had no idea it began with the SMiLE/Single version of Veggies. Makes sense though, seeing as this was one of the last SMiLE songs worked on.


Absolutely agree. My only suggestions for an improvement would be trying to splice in the cornucopia lyrics and, if it wouldnt sound too busy, the veggie fights with Hal over the fade.


Speaking of which, does anybody know why the cornucopia lyrics were scrapped?

They were scrapped because Mike Love had a fueling grudge against Van Dyke Parks, and thought they were too weird to make the cut (most probably)....

Im sure thats possible, but Id like to see a source. Why those lyrics in particular? Because of the word "tripped?" If so, why keep the pun about rolling a blunt ("I threw away the candy bar and I ate the wrapper (wink! wink!) and when they told me what I did I burst into laughter") ? Im sure there's more to it than that.

I guess I should mention it here for posterity, but my theory is Veggies was meant to go with the Americana songs on the original LP. My evidence is the tone and style fits very well with H&V and the two were together on Smiley as well. The idea of vegetables growing could fit very well within an Americana context, as a celebration of agriculture in the US, perhaps even on a barnyard. The spelling of the track could be a reference to Vega, the brightest star in the constellation Lyra, which is a Lyre (musical instrument) being gripped by an Eagle--a subtle reference to Americana Music? This last point is by far the most speculative, but if you take the titles for this, OMP, H&V, Worms, CE, and IIGS and add them up according to numerology, you get the same total as if you added up the titles for Wonderful, CIFOTM, Elements, GV, SU and WC, which to me implies those two groupings of tracks would make up each side. I think there is some proof VT was an element or at least started that way, and maybe my last point is wrong and Elements would be on the Americana side too--the title MOLC being a reference to the Chicago Fire lends evidence to that. But regardless of whether Veggies was part of that track or not, I think there's more than enough to conclude it ties into the Americana songs thematically and sounds better with them than mashed with Fire, WC and Dada.

I'm just disappointed that he wasted so much time on a song that wasn't that good to begin with. Don't get me wrong, I love "Fade To Vegetables". Although, the rest of it seems so out of place to me, it almost is like the pre-cursor to "Smiley Smile". I don't know why he'd think it would be a better single than "H&V", either.  "Vege-tables" is far inferior to "H&V".

I was just thinking about this last night and I think that there could be more conversation on this. Quick relevant sidebar: when I first listened to the Neil Young Massey Hall concert which was recorded pre-Harvest, I was amazed to discover that Heart of Gold once first saw life as merely being a section of his song A Man Needs a Maid. Significantly on Harvest they are two separate and different tracks but they are placed right night to each other still somewhat linked. While the example of H&V and VT on Smiley is a different one (VT, of course, was never a section of H&V as far as we know) it is possible that there are similarities. H&V and VT to me do have a great deal in common. They are both the most comedic Smile tracks, for one. For another the idea for a collection of laughter that was eventually used in the background of the Cantina section was originally used in the background of the VT demo. Then there is the Eat a Lot section which was transferred from H&V (or, perhaps, IIGS) to VT.

Now granted you can find connections like these between lots of Smile songs but nevertheless the two songs have a good deal of overlap on the ol' Venn diagram and it culminates with the two songs appearing side-by-side on Smiley. That said, I created a version of the album too where the acapella VT "ending" segued into Fire (without the H&V intro) and it sounded pretty awesome. Maybe a Smile H&V --> VT --> Elements 123 track listing would be in order. It would interestingly coincide somewhat with the first three tracks of Smiley (not that I'm a proponent of strictly adhering to the Smiley tracklisting to uncover what Smile's would have been, but I'm not a proponent of completely throwing that theory away either).

And don't forget that April (?) recording of "Wonderful" that had the really pretty piano arrangement. The version on The SMiLE Sessions with the background vocals is, in my opinion, one of the prettiest things the group has ever done. Woulda been lovely to have gotten a lead vocal on that one. Might have been even better than the harpsichord version.

And also, the "Child Is Father Of The Man" piano and vocal section was recorded around this time too? Was it for "Vega-Tables"? Regardless, we had "Wonderful", "Vega-Tables" and "Child Is Father Of The Man" worked on in this period in this stripped down, but still pretty ornate, fashion. Woulda been interesting if that was how SMiLE (or Smiley Smile) ended up. Would it have had the same fate as the organ dominated Smiley Smile? Or would a minimalistic, yet highly produced album would have changed the game? Who knows?