The Smiley Smile Message Board

The place to discuss TSS and H&V

Really dig this mix. The "woo woo woo woo woo's" sound much better then any fanmix could make it. Pretty cool ending as well with the horn AND the crazy strings.

Billboard Review Picks out H&V

THE BEACH BOYS
"The SMiLE Sessions"
Producers: Brian Wilson, Mark Linett, Alan Boyd, Dennis Wolfe
Capitol/EMI
Release Date: Nov. 1

The Beach Boys' "SMiLE," the first 19 tracks of this five-CD set, is an essential pop music album. The version Brian Wilson released in 2004 for Nonesuch was more polished than this collection of music from the initial 1966-'67 sessions. "The SMiLE Sessions" captures Wilson, session musicians and the Beach Boys in moments that are chaotic, loopy and remarkably in synch. It's a consistently brilliant album. With four CDs reliving Wilson's hours spent shaping "SMiLE," the song "Heroes and Villains" is limned at an extraordinary level, placed under the microscope and ultimately on a throne. Hands down one of Wilson's finest melodies, "Heroes and Villains" is Gershwin-esque in its sweeping moments, hauntingly still at times and cosmically choral in others. Set early on "SMiLE," a healthy amount of listening separates the song from its epic brethren "Surf's Up" and "Good Vibrations," heard here in a more rustic version than the hit single. Those better-known tracks feel perfect in length and structure; "Heroes and Villains" lingers-were SMiLE a Broadway show, theater-goers would hum it while exiting the venue. "SMiLE Sessions" showcases Wilson's production style and temperament, which is oddly calm and precise.

I got burned out on it back in 2000 or so when the folks at The Shop, myself included, dissected it to death.  Maybe I should reacquaint myself with it just in time before Tuesday.

On the 2-CD set: is it only my copy, or does the stereo mix of H&V (track 21 on CD1) have a problem? Near the end of the song (03:32), after "I'm alright... By the heroes and...", the last chorus kicks in SUPER FAST and then slows down. It's really noticeable.

Did you rip it? that's a semi-normal ripping issue

I miss the "wwwwooooooowwww" sound that comes around 2:10 or so in the single verison.

No, the problem's on the CD. Other people have reported this problem as well.

The vocal session for "Children Were Raised" is simply amazing.  Listening to them build it then hearing it with the backing track shows just how brilliant he was.

The stereo track is amazing!

The funniest thing is Track 20 on Disc 2 of the box, 'Heroes And Villains: Piano Theme' at about 1:13: Kiss'  'I was made for loving you', anyone? Hahaha!

3/1/67 - Verse remake.  Kind of breaks my heart.  After hearing his numerous attempts to finish H&V, he goes all the way back to the beginning to re-record the VERSE.  Makes me wish I could tell 1967 Brian, "Brian, the verse is just fine.  No changes needed."  He just couldn't stop himself from fiddling with it endlessly.

You're a few decades late to discover that! :)

Well it was a first for me too? Is it possible that Kiss listened to some boots? When did they first emerge?
Of course it's a pretty simple melody that anybody could come up with

Well, I have got (erhm, let's say 'heard' for legal reasons) pretty much every BB bootleg there are (except a lot of the redundant live stuff which I don't really care for), but I guess I must have missed that one :)
Funny, nevertheless :D

I love all that Brian piano stuff - actually the piano part 2 stuff is really new to me

During the "In the cantina" version, the liners say that it is "Dance Margarita," but I have always heard "Dance Margarite Rita." Does anyone else hear that, or am I crazy?

I think the way he's singing it is what's making you think those are the lyrics. But I'm pretty sure the listed lyrics are correct.

I've gotta say, the early version outakes sessions (disc 4 track 24), possibly sounds more well put together than any other version. (except one awful fade edit in the middle). Some edits I've never heard before make perfect sense and have a fantastic feel to it. I instantly loved it, and it has this certain drive to the entire track that none of the others have.

I wasn't referring to any bootleg - that melody line is present in about every incarnation of the BR theme, including the 1967 single version, where somebody sings "do - do - do - do-do" to it, and in DYLW somebody sings "ba - ba - ba...", and the fuzz bass plays that line, too.  Actually it is probably an unconscious lift by Kiss.

Verse, intro, fade...he was really starting over, wasn't he? But then WHY NOT TAKE 5 MINUTES AND RECORD A LEAD VOCAL ON SOMETHING THAT WAS ALREADY FINISHED!?!!?

I never noticed it before, and I'm curious where on the H&V single it is. I heard it clearly on DYLW (Track 5 of Disc 3) now though.

I came on to this thread to post exactly the same thing.  That might just be the best H&V running order that I've ever heard.  Sound quality for the mix isn't the greatest (is some of it acetate-sourced?), but, man, I love this version.  I wonder why it's buried at the end of Disc 4 instead of with the rest of H&V on Disc 2.  ???

Well, it's in the "chorus" of the H&V single of course. I think it's Carl do-do-do-ing it. :) It is much more obvious though in the first section of the 93 H&V sections mix where Al or possibly Brian goes ba-ba.

The structure of CD4 version from Jan/Feb 67 is as follows

1. Normal first verse although the lead vocal sounds quite laid back ( more than normal

2. Whistle/Dum Dum section

3. My Children were raised accapella with Often wise/piano section

4. Wordless vocal verse

5. In the Cantina

6. How I love my girl (Gee)

7. Dit Dit accapella H&V with handclaps and the one/two note bass line

8. Heroes & Villains accapella - with the clip clop thing

9 False Barnyard with hum dum vocals

I think thats it

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I don't think the CD 4 HAV is an actual mix...it's more a compilation of rough mono mixes (also found on UM17 I thought).

I think its a test mix by Brian in early 67

Er... I thought it was a mix of the two. A 2011 edit of 1967 mix pieces. And taken, according to Jon Hunt, directly from the mix attempts on SOT!

So the internal structure of the individual bits are Brian's choices and mix, but the order in which those bits appear... er... may not be.

...I think.

[quiet wibbling sounds are heard in the distance as Matt leaves the thread]

Okay, where did you find the working title of the Smile box set? And why are you posting it here? You're in deep sh*t now, I hope you know.

If you are referring to the 'ba-ba-ba-ba-babababa-ba' being the melodyline, we are talking about different ones. Al/Brian is doing the rhythm of the Kiss melody, but not the same notes as they do on the Piano theme, and DYLW D3T5.

It's not in Heroes And Villains, but in the Bicycle Rider chorus. The fuzz bass is playing it. This is a part which most fanmixes and BWPS just skipped, while it's one of my favourite melodies of Smile. That fuzz bass adds so many interesting harmonies by staying with the same melody when the vocals change chord. In SOT it was Bicycle Rider overdubs 1-3, where part 1 had the most prominent bass. Now you can hear it much better, thanks to Mark and Alan.

Yup, it's quite evident on SOT. But that melody, which is the same as the one on DYLW, and the Piano theme from TSS is not the same as the 'ba-ba-ba' thing, that was my point. ;)
And I agree, it's an awesome harmony to the main Bicycle Rider melody, and still funny that Kiss had a huge hit with that very same melody (and rhythm) in the 80s ;)

Guys - I have done a side by side comparison which may aid discussion - please let me know of any corrections you may have

http://www.zshare.net/download/958293912732c065/

Sorry could upload it direct - if you can please feel free

"Organ Waltz" really reminds me of Pere Ubu.

I don't think I've ever heard the whiste/dum dum dum part added to the end of the dum dum dum heroes and villains part. It seems a natural connection. If that makes no sense, I'll add some track times.

I've never heard a mix of "Heroes And Villains" that didn't need the snare to come up a lot. sh*t makes me want to jam a screwdriver into my ears out of frustration.

Think the snare-level is just fine in the new mix on CD1. Never been a big fan of having the snare loud in mixes though.

I have to admit that one of my few disappointments is in the structure of the vinyl 45. Mind you, it's got beautiful sound and great editing, and contains a lot of great parts, but...

What I always like best about H&V was that it was sort of an epic story. And it doesn't act like one on the single. It just sort of devolves into a bunch of nice musical bits that sound good, but...but...where's the story?

Time to cook up a new fan mix myself, I suppose...

They're addicting, aren't they?  I've been revising a couple of mine lately.

Am I missing something or is there no version of the box set of the original backing verse paired with vocals, like the one we have on the Smiley Smile two-fer bonus tracks?

I think the Pt. 1, the vintage mix same as on the two-fer is better. On any others the rhythm tracks are too low. Need more punch.

If you're referring to "Heroes & Villains (Alternate Take)" which appeared on the SMILEY SMILE / WILD HONEY two-fer, you'll find it on the A-side of the 45 single included in the TSS box set and as Track 2 on CD 2 of the TSS 2-CD set. It's now called "Heroes & Villains Part 1".

I'm listening to CD 4 track 24 as I write this.  You guys are right about this version... it struck me as soon as I heard it... it's really good.  There's a section I've never heard anywhere else that pops up at the 1:13 mark.  It has the (previously) a capella "dixieland band" vocals, but this time the verse backing track roars behind it, creating a moment of sublime kickass.  At the end of this section, there is a somewhat abrupt fade-out, and when the music kicks back in, the audio quality has significantly changed for the better... it sounds like stuff taken from multi-track masters.   I believe this is where this original mix ends, and random "sections" are then lined up for the rest of the track.

Wait so - if the original structure of "Heroes and Villains" (Humble Harv vintage) was to feature "barnyard" as the fade, has anyone examined the possiblity that the 'great shape' verse may have been used recurrently as a chorus?

A few things: I don't think the demo suggests that Heroes and Villains was to feature Barnyard as the fade. I mean, he does stop with Barnyard but it is clear just from the things that he was recording that there was more to the song after that. What is interesting about the demo is that he says he hasn't finished Barnyard yet but that's basically what became the finished product. Maybe the melody was going to continue with more lyrics, a la He Gives Speeches. I don't see I'm in Great Shape working as a chorus and especially not when it was being singled out as a track on its own. Part of the problem with H&V from a single/commercial standpoint was that it really didn't seem to have a big hooky chorus a la Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, The Little Girl I Once Knew, Sloop John B. and Good Vibrations. Then again, neither did Wouldn't it Be Nice and God Only Knows.

-

Ummm...what?

All I hear is Brian and Mike (more of him than on any released version), but no Carl as far as I can tell.

Same here. Carl??

I think the "Barnyard" as fade theory comes from the fact that the backing track for "Barnyard" fades out.  But is there a reason to believe the track was actually recorded while Brian still saw it as a part of "Heroes"?

Same goes for "Great Shape."  I don't see that as a chorus at all.  It makes sense as part of "Heroes," though, or even where it is on BWPS--"I Wanna Be Around"/"Friday Night" is a two-part configuration with a cover of an old love song just like "Old Master Painter"/"Sunshine," and "OMP" had the "Heroes" bit tacked on just like "Great Shape" can be attached to "I Wanna Be Around."

Yeah, and remember that in the "Part 1" mix of H&V there isn't a chorus at all. I don't think that Brian had even thought of a chorus for the song until around when he lifted the Bicycle Rider theme from Worms.

The way I've been thinking about it lately, I'm pretty sure that the so-called "Barnyard Suite', that being Great Shape, Barnyard, Old Master Painter, Sunshine, and Barnshine, may have been the original intent for H&V Part 2. In the demo, Brian hums the 'Heroes and Villains theme' (ba-babababa-ba-bababa-be-baaaaaaaa) before starting to play Great Shape, and now on the box that same theme ends Heroes and Villains proper. I mean, there's not any historical basis for this, really, except for the fact that none of the parts of the suite are long enough (in my opinion) to be songs in their own right, and while it hardly follows any sort of traditional verse-chorus song structure, it has a good enough flow for the B-side of a single. I could also see the whole suite being put under the catchall 'I'm in Great Shape' on the handwritten 12-song list, since we're all but sure that Brian didn't write the list they could have just called it by name given to the first section.

I could be wrong, of course. But it's neat to think about.

Ah, my bad, it's Mike of course. Pretty sweet vocals I must say though, considering I could think for a split second it was Carl :)

Ages ago, when I found some of the alternate H&V mixes that had the trade-off vocals in the verse, I swore one of them sounded like Dennis was in there on a line or two, and another being Carl. I haven't listened since, but maybe one of them indeed has people other than Brian and Mike? I can't even remember where I heard them, I'll have to look again.

The one thing I really like about this edit is that Gee follows In the Cantina. To me that always seemed like it obviously should go there. Then followed by "You're Under Arrest" when the piano stops suddenly.

Is the "At three score and five I'm very much alive" verse available on the box anyplace other than CD #4 track 24?

That's got me thinking- maybe I'm In Great Shape was maybe meant to be a sequel or continuation to H & V. Possibly even including the "my children were raised...at three score and five" stuff to show that a lot of time has passed. He now has his own farm out in the "open country" and because of this idyllic country life, although he's old now, he's still in "great shape". Y'know probably a lot of our country's frontiersmen who pushed this country's European settlers westward probably did so to escape the law.

Check my old posts.  My guess is (and has been since about 1995) it was ALWAYS "Heroes And Villains Part 1".  Or at least the completed "Heroes And Villains Part 1" SONG (as opposed a reference title for a specific "Heroes And Villains" SECTION) was always that particular edit (minus the False Barnyard).  I think his plan for "Part 2" was all about the way the single would have been pressed:  Side one was Part 1 (twofer edit up through the explosion).  Then you flipped it over and side2 was "Part 2" (the chorus through the end of "our" single version).

I think he then scrapped that idea, added the verse to the top of that second half, and made THAT the single; one that would fit on one side of a single.

That is an interesting guess. I'm not sure I've got it correctly: You think that the actual 1967 single without the first two verses was planned as flip side of the single?

I thought False Barnyard was on that mix in the first place ie. not a Linett addition for the twofers/boxset?

More accurately, I think it was planned as the rest of the song and because of the song's length, it would have wound up as the b-side when the song was split for the single.  At least that arrangement, or something very close to it.  I'm not sure if the actual recordings used for the final single were recorded by that point.

Correct.  My guess was always that it was meant exclusively for the single, possibly to give "closure" to the a-side.  On the album, I think it would have still been at the end of TOMP.  I guess it could have been in both places on the albums tho (maybe one with and one without the sunshine vocals).  It's not like the album isn't crammed with other reoccurring musical themes.

I get ya - I ran into the problem you mentioned, after making a 'historical' sequence lauded by many on this board, only to find when I listened to it that False Barnyard happens twice in ten minutes. The only problem is, there is no viable alternative to that mix other than the Smiley version, and there's nothing else  he sequenced or test mixed to fill out that last minute.

I think on a released Smile LP False Barnyard just would be in one track. So, late 1966 it would be in TOMP, and HAV would have been a different mix, but at the time of the HAV Cantina mix, TOMP would not have False Barnyard or would'nt be on the album at all. The only thing I could imagine is that False Barnyard would close both sides of the LP, so HAV at the end of Side A and TOMP at the end of Side B or vice versa.

Considering the fact that Brian recorded the master take to Barnyard BEFORE the Humble Harv demo (consult the TSS sessionography), I'd say he considered it a part of H&V right up until perhaps January and the "Part 1 Tag".

here's an attempted reconstruction of a March '67 H&V, I'd love to get some feedback on the sequencing and in particular the added vocals to "Prelude to Fade"

http://www.mediafire.com/?c4ofz63tf30gttz

About false barnyard, read Dom's second smile book, he says he couldn't remember the entire OMP so maybe there was more to extend the track?

Thanks for posting! It is a really nice mix of a lot of HAV Part 1 and Part 2 sections. I don't think it is very historically accurate, but it sounds good as a fan mix sequence! The vocal over the prelude to fade do fit quite well, maybe there were vocals intended for that section? I remember a bit of studio chat about 'slowing down for vocal reasons', if I remeber correctly. Can someone check that for me?

On BWPS it was played by a theremin I believe. I'd also like to know where it's gone. I miss it......  :(

Bruce mentioned that he heard H&V in a club in London (?) and the people really grooved to it until the slow part began (the chorus I guess). Carl's version - the live versions - on the other hand sounds totally like a hit. The contrast between verse and chorus seems all but gone yet both still are individual parts. Something like that on the single would have prbably done better imo

I tried to do a 6+ minute mix of H&V too, but I found none of my attempts working as a whole, and I don't think yours does, though there are fine moments. The first chorus in your version works surprisingly well to me, but personally I found the other chorusses jarring.

The lyrics on the Prelude work only from "I'm fit with the stuff" on, but then they work great! Before that the lines are too far apart. Maybe it would work better if you placed the "I've been in this town" a bit later, so that the "been" coincides with the beat at exactly 4:49?

Perhaps. But keep in mind, the version that Bruce is referring to is the Smiley Smile version in which Brian basically reworked part of Do You Like Worms and made that the chorus of Heroes and Villains. The live versions that you refer to are just sparkier versions of the Smiley Smile Heroes with the inclusion of Worms. H&V during the Smile sessions never really seemed to have a chorus as far as I can tell and I can't imagine that Brian would have included Do You Like Worms in Heroes if they were both appearing on the same album as separate tracks as well.

To me, the stereo single version released on Hawthorne, CA sounds like it's of better quality than the stereo version on TSS. Is there a reason for that? Are they both sourced from the same recordings? (I feel like that's a stupid question, but Wikipedia has me confused.)

See, I think the 2001 mix sounds a lot worse - I think they got around the fact that multis were missing for the organ overdubs in the chorus and the second verse in the wrong fashion, some of it sounds like it's going through a phaser. Whereas to do TSS, you don't need the organ overdub as you aren't recreating the single*, and they've gone about incorporating the 2nd verse vox better. And mastering technology has improved a lot.

But yeah, the masters they use are the same, just freshly mixed.

*Although that overdub appears to have surfaced!

As a whole, Hawthorne is a much brighter album than TSS. I thought the 2001 mix was a nice change from the original mono, but now I prefer the TSS mix. To these ears, it sounds less harsh, meeting nicely in the middle between the previous two mixes.

(You may have to give it time to adjust, too -- I thought the TSS mix sounded a bit flat at first, but my ears adjusted quickly after that.)


Yeah, there's definitely some Duophonic-ness going on there. And I always thought the delay added to the harpsichord was sort of...interesting?

Hi guys,

In Reply #18 in the "Pitchfork Pans tour, album" thread, (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=13587.0)
AndrewHickey just posted the following regarding the recent Van Dyke Parks show in London:

(And for Smile-philes, he did a line of lyric in Heroes & Villains I've never heard before -- "We've all had enough/of each fisticuff" -- before sunny down snuff...)

Interesting huh?

I've been in this town so long, so long to the city, we've all had enough, of each fisticuff, and sunny down snuff i'm alright.....by the Heroes & Villains!

Royce  :)

I'm thinking this is a newly-written line...perhaps a comment on Parks' questioned SMiLE lyrics or maybe a comment on current politcal polarization in the U.S.?

Hey, so I figured this would be the thread to post in, but I gotta say the version of "Heroes And Villains" on TSS is probably the The Beach Boys version I like least. I think it's too long and unwiedly. I think either the version on Smiley Smile is the best, but the "cantina" version is also quite good.

I think a long version featuring "Great Shape" or "Barnyard" might have interesting, but to mix the Smiley Smile version with the cantina version I just think just drags it on too long.

Hey all,
Disc One, track 22 (Heroes And Villains Sections: Bonus Track: Stereo)
Really amazing to hear it in stereo but I was wondering, does anyone know what the instrument is playing with the tack piano towards the end of the track?  Is it a organ of some sort?  It comes in at about 5 min 39 seconds into the track. 

Sounds like an electric harpsichord.

Track 9 of Disc 2 of the sessions is H&V Mission Pak...question, why was it called this? I know (what I think is Brian) sings "happy happy mission pack." Is that why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Page#Founding_of_Mission_Pak

A dried-fruit company with a jingle apparently famous enough for Brian to expect the others to know what he meant.

"Say the Magic words, say Mission Pak and it's on its merry way! No gift so bright, so gay, so right, give the Mission Pak magic way!"

Has anyone been able to isolate HV chorus vocals..??
I heard them in Beautiful dreamer for a brief moment and it occured to me that it would be great to have them , I mean acapella HV chorus!
help...

If you have UM...it's either 16 or 17...you can isolate them yourself. There's a few tracks that are layer + layer of the vocal multis.

Wait, no, that's just the verse, I think.

This really cracks me up!  :-D

I think it's pretty well accepted that GS was gonna be an interlude section similar to Cantina. I personally think Barnyard would be the fade but I think on Humble Harv Brian just calls it "another section." Yes, it's really sad to say, but I think Brian made a huge error in judgement picking H&V for the single, and for wasting like 3 months rewriting it over and over to make it more commercial at the expense of the entire album.


I agree. H&V, as it was initially conceived, would probably have been similar to Wonderful--no chorus, but a long interlude segment. The chorus only came later to make it more suitable for release as a single.

If you're referring to the flutter horn, I believe that wasnt intended as the end of the song back in the day. On the boxset, it's referred to as Prelude to Fade, and then there's a separate Part 1 Tag that's just the piano.

I kinda agree with your idea of GS being a Barnyard Suite of four pieces, kinda of a counterpoint to The Elements. I disagree though that OMP/YAMS would be part of that. I'm thinking it'd be either how it is on BWPS + Barnyard or GS/Barnyard and maybe two or three of the more tangential H&V pieces like All Day, Do A Lot and With Me Tonight. I think this would be your GS track, but NOT H&V Part 2, which from what I've read, would have been all those monotonous H&V chants and Gee put together and then the new False Barnyard fade.


Possible. It could be something similar to Worms and Cabin Essence--similar in theme and structure, but with their own unique sound. Either way, without that GS vocal session we'll never know.


I think the A-Side would have had the chorus if anything. That's what people would be hearing on the radio. That's what had to sound catchy and melodic enough to move units for the single itself and the album. The B-Side would be the extraneous stuff. I guess it could still work nicely as one whole song split between sides, but the chorus had to come at the first half. The A-Side had to be commercial. End of story. I dont think H&V, at least the album cut (presumably the A-Side) would have the tape explosion if GS was still intended for the album. Reusing ideas like that wouldnt be right, it'd come off as laziness. On the B-Side tho, maybe.


No. NO. NO. Why would he reuse a fade like that? Again, it would just come across as sheer laziness and a waste of album space. I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this theory at all. There's certainly recurring themes and musical motifs, but there's a difference between that and, say, two songs having the exact same chorus and same fade. I think it's just a simple case of Brian wanting H&V to be the single but paradoxically insecure about its commercial prospects so he recycled some of the best pieces from other songs at the expense of the album as a whole. But that doesn't mean H&V would have had all these same sections that other songs did on the album.


Wow. I honestly thought it was too short when I first heard it, since I was used to 5~8 minute cuts of the song by then. I think on the real SMiLE it would have been maybe 4 or 4:30. I also don't think H&V would have had the Bicycle Rider chorus on the album. Obviously Mark and Alan weren't going for historical accuracy so much as recreating BWPS. I have to ask though, why for BWPS and TSS are Worms and Heroes next to each other? It just accentuates the stolen chorus. Another awful aspect of that sequence, imho.


I agree Swedish Frog sounds great there. Awesome way to use an otherwise extraneous H&V fragment. It makes the guys at the bar sound like a bunch of pigs too, which then makes me feel for the narrator, loving his innocent girl and wanting to take her away from such an unfitting place. The fact that she was later killed from living in such an environment really takes on an added emphasis then too. It really becomes a sad, yet upbeat song. I love it.


I agree that there are definitely better ways to arrange the fragments than what they came up with for the boxset. I do think they got it about right to what Brian would have done though, but maybe that explains why he abandoned the concept--it just didnt sound all that great when all was said in done. Or at least, not as great as he wanted it.


I'll have to give it another listen. I honestly remember thinking it wasnt all that great. It's a damn shame that that's the only place you can hear the "three score and five" vocals on the boxset. I do remember that. What the HELL is up with that, by the way? Seriously, why is there no better version of that crucial lyric on this boxset? Just another important piece of the puzzle that was left off at the expense of a whole disc of near-identical GV sessions, I guess :-[




Now, for my original contributions. I have a few questions to ask.

What's the best assembling of these H&V fragments you guys have heard? It's remixed differently on just about every release and fanmix. How long do you like it? Do you just include the usual bits or the more out there stuff like All Day and Do A Lot?

I'm thinking of trying a YoureWelcome/Verse/Cantina-Children-3Score&5/Verse/Great Shape/Prelude to Fade/Barnyard structure for my next mix.

What do you think Part 2 would have been? A direct continuation of Part A or a series of outtakes/chants?

Do you think Veggies would have come after it, like in Smiley? Or My Only Sunshine, which was apparently part of the song in the first session?

When, if ever, do you think we'll see a release of the new version from the Durrie Parks acetate that features the GS lyrics but H&V instrumentation? How does the knowledge that this exists affect your opinion on both songs?

What was the "classic" structure of Heroes and Villains edits in 1966, and early 1967?

Simple answer is, there isn't one. Or rather, there don't seem to be any such edits surviving (unless you're including the Feb '67 mix originally released on the 'Smiley Smile/Wild Honey' twofer). There is a suggestion that track 24 of Disc 4 of TSS ("Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sections") is actually more by way of a rough edit than the 'outtakes' suggested by the naming of the track. It certainly sounds - to these ears - somewhat consciously sequenced. But that's subjective, of course.

Similarly, when the Durrie Parks acetates were described on these boards a couple years back by 'andy', apparently on a disc entitled 'H&V', an unbooted or released version of 'I'm in Great Shape' (with 'heavier instrumentation') begins:


Really, the only real 'period evidence' we have is the 'Humble Harv' demo from Nov '66, in which the two first verses of 'H&V' lead into IIGS and then Barnyard. Of course, it's very likely - and indeed, implied strongly by Brian's comment of 'here's another section now' just before 'Barnyard' - that some or most connective musical tissue is missing from this impromptu rendition.

Was just about to head to bed (it's about 12.30 on Tuesday night here in the Antipodes) when a further thought occurred: combining the two period sequencings I referred to above, don't we have a pretty good suggestion of the intended structure of H&V circa Nov/Dec '66? (remembering we don't know quite when the relevant Durrie Parks acetate dates from):

[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', knowing the Feb '67 edit ended with a similar fade:] Barnyard to close.

This seems to incorporate all the 1966 instrumental sessions logged for H&V but 'Intro [Early Version]' (the section later re-recorded and, much later, re-used as 'Fire Intro'), and is in line with both period assemblies we have for the number before IIGS appears to have been broken off into a separate track. A 'Tape explosion' might have provided a transition out of either IIGS (as in the TSS takes) or 'Three Score and Five' (as in the Feb '67 version), or both.

does the audio of the Durrie Parks acetate H&V exist in any circles? I've read descriptions, but would love to hear it...

WHAT IS THIS SECTION? Apears on a lot of mixes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpHg5Z1FPY

I found it :lol

The intro early version was logged as Heroes and Villains Part 3 - assuming IIGS was Part 2, then the "intro" then it would follow it and precede my children were raised.  Of course by mid December when Part 3 was recorded IIGS may have already been rejected as part 2 and cantina taken it's place.  Also you don't have an a capella verse, which I believe Brian would have included in any final version, as he did in the Feb cantina version and the eventual single.  It would fit best after the verses and before IIGS (as it did in February after the verses and before cantina).

This was written by Paul Stanley & Desmond Child.  I'd put the blame squarely on Desmond