The Smiley Smile Message Board

(I think this deserves to be its own thread. if this causes a problem you can merge this with one of the 700 other threads talking about the radio spot.)


Bruce brought up an interesting idea in the BBC interview, that Smile should've been released as a Brian solo album on EMI's classical label. I completely disagree with this.

Part of what makes Smile so interesting is that it's a Beach Boys album. That the same band that sang "catch a wave and you're sitting on top of the world" is now putting out songs like Vegetables and Look and Fire, songs so un-Beach-Boys-like but at the same time, SO VERY Beach-Boys-like. All the harmonies are there, Mike's nasal 60s tough young punk voice singing "over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield".

If the album was released as a Brian solo album, no one would give a sh*t. it would just be a weird album by some guy, instead of a weird album by America's Band. Smile is a deconstruction of the Beach Boys, and you need the Beach Boys to deconstruct it.

I used to really wonder why it wasn't altered to be a Brian solo record back in '67, but I eventually came around to your thoughts in the last two paragraphs.

Still... if Brian had finished Smile, opted to release it as a solo record, and then the band had begged him for the songs and he opted for Smiley Smile as the Beach Boys album, then I'd be flustered as all f*** as to which idea I liked better. The cake and the eating it too or whatever. Still, it deserves the Beach Boys' name on it and all that came with it.

Also, I can only imagine what would've happened with the group if Smile had been given to the Brian and Shut Down III had been the next Beach Boys record. Would've been 1974 all over again, except this time before 1974, but then what is 1974 how is iatiy4j280qw8h0g erahr08ef gbhn

and another thing that occurs to me, aside from Do It Again, it's not like they ever did any other "formula" songs until post-74 when they became an oldies act. What songs did Mike have a big contribution in writing 67 - 74?

Gettin' Hungry
Let the Wind Blow
Meant for You
Anna Lee, the Healer
Do It Again
All I Wanna Do
Cool Cool Water
Don't Go Near the Water
Student Demonstration Time
He Come Down
All This is That
Big Sur
Only With You

HEY MIKE, STOP F.U.C.KING WITH THE FORMULA!!!

Sounds like a good idea to me, SMiLE marked a breach between Brian and the Beach Boys. In a way it marked the start of them as a more democratic band. Although the following albums Brian was still the major creative force. But never again did we have Brian forging his music with a sense of urgency and purpose, he still did some good work with them. With Pet Sounds they were starting to part company and with SMiLE something broke. It might have been better vibes between Brian and the band if they had viewed it as helping with a solo album. It might have been best if Brian had left them then, but as he had said he needed their voices.

Considering the direction the BB's career took when they didn't release Smile, it surprises me that Bruce still holds this opinion. What would a "proper" 1967 BB album have sounded like to him? This is a nice idea in retrospect, but I don't believe it was ever a viable option at the time.

Back then yes but if it was released as a Brian Wilson solo I don't think it would be viewed today like some of Lennon's albums with Yoko Ono from the late sixties are.  I think we'd still be calling Brian a genius either way.  The SMiLE music itself is just too good. 

I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned Peter Reum's claim that there was some sort of group meeting in late '66 where the boys vetoed Brian's original concept for Smile.  You should read this thread: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2688.0.html

Here are some key posts, with the last one going into the family dynamic, and why Brian possibly couldn't bring himself to release this material as a solo album:

 

I think if what Peter wrote is true it's one of those "there you have it" sort of deals which really sufficiently answers most if not all the questions surrounding SMiLE.  From Brian's original concept/end game for the album (my personal feeling has always been he started out with some sort of format but then it just all unraveled like a Slinky), The Beach Boys' rejection of the project which has taken many forms over the years from Love's questioning of VDP's lyrics, the December 1966 session that apparently went "very badly" and something very interesting to me a plausible explanation as to why Brian continued the sessions after having his album squashed.

Brian to me has always seemed like the kind of guy who really does feel a sense of responsibility to those close to him.  The fact that he had all these people depending on him for what I assume to be their financial well being well it just sounds like something Brian would at least attempt to do.

The mental illness factor in this entire puzzle is just so sad and I wouldn't be surprised if that is the reason to this day why Brian is so vague when speaking about why everything fell apart.  

This is all very cogent.

Keep this in mind: Brian's first nervous breakdown was the result of him having to do too much--being on tour, singing/playing, writing, arranging, producing, being a young married guy, dealing with the music biz, being the leader--and feeling responsible for everybody in the process. He didn't give up, he didn't quit--he only quit the road, and shifted his energies in a better way: into writing/arranging/producing in the studio--a better way to still carry everybody without destroying himself. He was, in a very real way, looking out for his own health by doing this. He was putting on his own oxygen mask first (in airline-speak), so that he might still be able to help everybody else.

Then he flowers: he makes Pet Sounds. Some complaints from Mike (yes, there were some), and sales slightly off, but still top 10, correct?

Then acid, new friends, new books, new influences. Van Dyke Parks. SMiLE begins. Massive work, massive inspiration. The boys return, and yes, work does go on, they do sing on it. They witness it in fragments--how can they possibly see how the pieces would all assemble, especially when their leader didn't entirely have that figured out himself? The recording process goes on for months--in the 60s, this probably felt like years, as albums were normally made very, very quickly then. The additional players were bound to get nervous. A December meeting, without Christmas product to put on the market (this wouldn't have mandated a 'summer' release, as it didn't capitalize on that) would certainly find most of the bunch in a very nervous mood indeed.

A vote happens (or so we now hear). Recording continues for a while into the new year--hmmm, might the mood, the confidence, have changed after all that? I haven't checked the paperwork, but were there less group vocals recorded after that? (I'm recalling more instrumental work on Surf's Up, Mrs. O'Leary, and eventually Da-Da...not sure about vocals...somebody chime in, please.) Van Dyke leaves. The feeling gets worse. All this work, and it's becoming too much to finish, especially with a diminished feeling of support, and the beginning of psychological decline. Not to mention the physical exhaustion that must have come with all of this.

Finally, Brian cans it. He takes the responsibility for canning it, even though other influences obviously play in. The key point here: he feels the responsibility on his shoulders. And this time, he doesn't really have a new solution. He already retreated to the studio, thought that was going great, and now his pet project has met its end. And there's a lawsuit. And the dream of starting a new label, with film offshoots, other bands, etc., much like the early concept of Apple Corps, is probably feeling like even more pressure piled on--great ideas, yes, but requiring oodles more work to pull off. Another retreat was required, but this new retreat came in the form of collapse. What else could he do? This was a Herculean mountain of work, with fantastically high standards applied to all of it. I can barely stand to think of what that pressure must have felt like. And the underlying fear of letting the side down, as they say, must have been worse than terrible.

My sympathy (not pity) and empathy for the guy are total. This is a human being reaching for the heavens and getting burned, because after all, he was still human. No sin in that.

The next time some "fan" whines that they don't have "The Elements" bound together in a four-song suite, or whatever the complaint of the month is, perhaps they should consider this for a few minutes before they type again.

Some excellent points being made here.

I too am surprised that Peter's posts about the December meeting haven't really been talked about in the months leading up to this release.  As I said back then, I'm skeptical, given that we hadn't heard anything about it until Peter told us, but what's interesting is that we see a pretty dramatic shift in Brian's focus in the first few months of 1967.  From September '66 through the end of the year, he worked on every track on the December tracklist - some more than others, of course, but he did a lot of work on a lot of different songs, very focused on the album as a whole. 

But then the new year comes, and his new mantra is essentially "all Heroes, all the time."  Suddenly the album takes a back seat to just getting a single out.  Sure, there are a few random sessions for other tracks here and there, including the "Wonderful" remake and the Jasper sessions (which to me suggest either distraction or procrastination).  But when you look at the sessionography, Brian really only seriously worked on 2 songs in the first 4 months of 1967, both of them possible singles - "Heroes" and "Vega-Tables." 

So why the sudden change?  It would seem that something happened in the waning days of 1966 that caused Brian's focus to rapidly shift from finishing the album to finishing the single.  A meeting where the Beach Boys shot down his album concept is as good a candidate as any to have such an effect.

Great points all. The studio shift in focus from 1966 to 1967 has always plagued me. Some tracks were so close to completion, like Worms. The lack of vocals just doesn't make sense. There's also a Durrie Parks comment in the BWPS Doc about secretive group meetings being held. It does seem to add up to something.

What exactly were they shooting down though?  The songs themselves?  Wasn't there some upset later in '67 because Brian refused to use the Smile recordings on Smiley Smile?   They didn't want the music, then they changed their minds and did want it?

Also, it's strange to think of the collective group shooting it down. Dennis loved it, Brian loved it, Bruce was behind it, Carl was being diplomatic but seemingly still behind the project. Al we don't know, we know Mike didn't think it fit the Beach Boys, but there they both there, singin' their ballz off about vegetables and corn fields. These folks putting their foot down with Smile but then going along with Smiley Smile doesn't make much sense.

These were the same kids who overall didn't feel "'Til I Die" was appropriate for the Beach Boys but went along with it because, I guess, they trusted his judgement and knew how skilled the guy was as a songwriter. Mike especially, supposedly, but again, there 'e is on the tag, singing about death on a Beach Boys record.

The fact that we never heard about a December 1966 meeting about Smile doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. It could have happened, and nobody happened to talk about it.

Sound like BS? Well: what would you say if somebody swore to you that there were 5 solo takes of "Surf's Up", with a new key change in them yet, from the Wild Honey sessions?

My point: we weren't there, and history is complex. Strange things can happen, and hidden (and true) things sometimes seem to come out of nowhere.

Good point, and I pretty much agree.  The fact that it's Peter Reum conveying the story certainly gives it a lot more credibility. 

It is interesting to read this thread with particular reference to Peter's comments around Brian his dependence and his illness. Brian almost died for his Art, for our joy and we should be very thankfull that he is still with us.

What I can't get my head around is how does anyone other than Mike have the audacity to veto the album in December '66?  Was Al even a voting member of the band at that point?  Bruce?  Dennis wouldn't vote against Brian and I'd be very surprised if Carl did - Good Vibrations is still on the charts.  Mike was pissed about the Van Dyke thing - my guess is that any meeting had less to do with the music than Mike, and maybe the others collectively, bitching about the lyrics to the point of refusing to sing some of them, ie "Hang on to Your Ego".

This may have taken place after or around the session that went "badly" in December and "almost broke the band up".  Shortly thereafter VDP leaves.  It appears, however, that Brian didn't give up without a fight.  He directs his attention to a single to buy some time and gets Parks to come back for a short period of time.  It would explain why so many songs are so close to being finished waiting for the lead vocals - they were arguing over the words.

Ultimately Brian's deteriorating psychological status, loss of confidence, and ultimately the final departure of VDP signal the end.  Brian shelves SMiLE and to extent that he can leaves it buried.

I'll bet you that if Brian had caved to some degree - let Mike write lyrics for several of the songs - SMiLE would have been completed.

It's easy to look back 40 years and view Brian as a martyr for his art - remember that Mike wrote the lyrics for GV and contributed to the hook.  These guys weren't obligated to be Brian's robots and just do what he told them - Mike has co-responsibility for several hits that made a lot of money.  If Brian wanted to be in The Beach Boys then to some degree he was obligated to consider their desires, needs, and tastes - otherwise he should have made a solo LP, left the band, or both.

I think what Brian said to Mike during the sessions is really profound, "if you don't want to grow, you should stop living."

Not to diminish the significance of Mike's contributions in any way, but when you have a guy writing material like "Surf's Up," Wonderful," etc., why wouldn't you want to be his "robot"?  Of course everyone wants to be heard, but I can't imagine hearing music like that and then having the audacity to question the man who is responsible for its creation.  Brian earned the right to do things his way without being questioned.

Reading that whole thread instead of just a few excerpts might give some perspective, maybe not.

I've always defended Mike Love's standpoint about being a bit wary of Van Dyke's lyrics from a commercial standpoint.  You have Mike Love who is going to be one of faces if you will bringing Parks' lyrics to the masses and perhaps he felt that if I can't understand these lyrics and I'm the guy who is going to be delivering them to the general public, how can I expect the public to understand them?

To me that is all fair game.  However, if The Beach Boys' issues with Parks lyrics were anything other than comprehension then that opens up a whole other can of worms (no pun intended) and looking at it from that perspective I guess wonder why is it that these guys had so little faith in what Brian was trying to accomplish?  I mean were they really that afraid of failure?  Were they that gun shy about taking risks? Were they that unwilling or unreceptive to change in general?  Was an issue where money talked and creativity walked?  

There is an old adage about the record industry (which I've heard repeated in many different venues) where when an artist has a hit record, the artist usually strives to make his next record an advancement of the hit record while his record company on the other hand wants him to duplicate the record he just made.  This is one of the constant struggles between artists and labels which probably exists to this day.  In the case of "SMiLE" it's almost as if Brian had to not only deal with this dilemma from the perspective of his record company but his band mates.  If true, it really does get to the point of being absurd what this man had to go through just to get his music to the public in the sixties.

If we accept that Mike's reasons for questioning VDP's lyrics were commercially driven, you need to put yourself back in 1966 and the situation The Beach Boys were in at the time.  You are a member of one of the most popular and successful bands in the world.  You are making more money that you could probably ever imagined from an art form which at the time was being viewed as still a "fly by night" operation.  In 1966, there was still no real inkling that a band like The Beach Boys would be able to transcend their generation to become one of the most beloved bands in the history of music period.

So you are in this essentially to make as much money as you possibly can and as quickly as you can.  You see your cousin beginning to write these strange, complex songs with a new lyricist with whom you have little to no relationship with.  You realize that the music they are composing sounds nothing like what you are hearing from your contemporaries on the radio.  At this point you have two choices, embrace what they are doing and support them in the new direction they are taking your band or play it safe hoping that by rejecting these strange, complex songs your cousin will get back to writing songs that are more in line with what has brought you all the success you currently have.  

It's a difficult dilemma and without the benefit of hindsight, it's really hard to say that Mike Love made the wrong decision in airing his concerns regarding the direction Brian and VDP were taking the band.  It's obviously very possible that Mike thought that if "SMiLE" was released and didn't find an audience that the group would be sunk and with that would go any future opportunities to maximize earning potential.  Those are some pretty heavy things to have weighing on your mind any way you slice it.

What Peter says was voted down was Brian's concept of Smile as a three movement suite.  After the meeting it went back to a 12 track album. 

I find this difficult to accept since the first time we hear about movements is from Peter speaking with Brian in the late 70s/ early 80 s.  Van Dyke, Brian's collaborator for the project, never heard anything about movements - there were to be 12 tracks, no link tracks or movements.  Why would Brian keep this concept from Van Dyke but share it with mike, Carl et al?  And let's assume he did tell Mike and Carl he wanted to do the album in movements - what would be their objection?  If they liked the songs, do you think Mike would say, OK, cabin essence and Surf's up are great songs, but you can't put them together in a movement, that's too weird?

Color me skeptical.

I don't buy this - I don't think there's much evidence to support the 3 movement paradigm in 66-67.   I would expect to see evidence in Frank Holmes art - which I don't.  Maybe "The Elements" as a 3 movement suite - but not the LP in total.

I would - but I can certainly imagine Mike not wanting to go that "artistic" direction.  He's never been much of an experimenter since - especially in terms of lyrical content.  Bands directed with an authoritarian artistic style rarely survive the long haul - ask John Fogerty.  For all practical purposes Pet Sounds was a solo record with the Beach Boys as session singers - so was SMiLE. 

I can imagine Carl having concerns that the music could not be reproduced in concert.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2688.0.html

Here it is. There's indeed a reason why this group meeting theory hasn't been talked much about since 2006.

Very interesting. Missed the original thread in '06, so have just gone through that with much interest.

With all due respect to Cam and others, the idea of an (early - my hypothesis) December meeting in which SMiLE, as originally planned, was voted down makes sense of several parts of the story. Not specifically the rejection of a 3-movement concept (which is actually difficult to physically reconcile with the LP format), but whatever record it was that Brian and VDP had in mind in the first part of that year and right through, probably, until October or November.

A hypothetical timeline:

Early-Mid '66 - While GV is being recorded, PS is being readied for release, Brian and Van Dyke write the songs for SMiLE.  The Boys continue to periodically tour and perform. H&V tracked in March and wiped. Full speed ahead.

August-Oct '66 - Sessions begin in earnest. "Brother Records" floated. "Vosse Posse" take their roles in the scene in earnest. At this stage, BW seems totally in command of the recordings (source: session tapes) and structure of the tunes being recorded (source: CBS Surf's Up, Humble Harv H&V demo, Child is Father mono mixdown, Wind Chimes rough mix et al). Whatever reservations the Boys have at this stage on the basis of the original tracking sessions they've heard or participated in, on their English tour at least they are generally positive about SMiLE and the new sound Brian is working on when quoted in the press.

Nov - Dec '66 - Things start to fall apart. Much conjecture has been made over why, of course - to a large extent that question is why we're all here. Problems with Capitol appear on the Horizon. The album's due date is right around the corner and then suddenly past it. There are so many good, if brief, musical ideas that working out how to combine them - and deciding what to leave out - starts competing for precedence with the actual sessions. The Beach Boys, their leader unwilling or unable to explain anything very clearly about what they're doing here and why it's taking so long, turn their doubts onto Van Dyke, who also chooses not to, or can't, answer them. The CBS-filmed Wonderful vox session "goes very badly". And then Murry hires private detectives. Seigel's girlfriend's a witch. Phil Spector starts producing movies to mess specifically with Brian Wilson. In other words: Brian's finally being overwhelmed by his emotional and addiction problems. This seems to be Mr Reum's thesis in any case - that the pressure and chemical intake was causing long-repressed (or at least hidden) psychological problems to start making themselves more apparent - and Brian, before anyone else, knew it. (Apologies if I have misunderstood this.)

Which brings us up to crunchtime. The heart of my conjecture is that perhaps the Capital memo is more important than we give it credit for being.

Here are two alternate histories, both leading to the same result (I understand there is no official record of the meeting at which the vote occurred, or whether given the amount of time now passed, any witnesses could be expected to specify a date, so I'm not sure we can actually quantify now which if either of these is closest to the historical truth):

1. Memo, then meeting.

As pressure mounts to complete the record and make the cover art, either Carl or Diane (presumably with reluctant input from Brian) have to draw up a tracklist. Ten or eleven of the songs are discrete and self-explanatory, but a couple need to be covered vaguely. Is Vega-Tables part of the Elements, which they know to include Fire, but that's only an instrumental...? Throw 'em both on the list. "Open Country Song" isn't part of Heroes anymore, but it's been recorded, along with its intended fade, Barnyard. Call it "I'm in Great Shape", which is the name of that first section. "Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine" could really be a part of anything, a link track, fade or its own banded item. There's some consternation about including it, but once again our phantom author errs on the side of caution. And so, clearly, as a result of some pressure, a list is sent to Capitol and the back of the slick designed.

The point being: setting a precedent for much of the next twenty years, this is one of the first instances of someone - usually Carl - having to step into finish what Brian started. The difference is at this point no one has come to expect it, and it's worrying that with all the time and expense already committed, someone else has to say what tunes are going to be on the album because - and I'm guessing here, but give me another alternative - Brian simply won't.

So a meeting is called - it may not have seemed particularly major at the time to those calling for it - to discuss whether Brian is actually going to be able to make this '66 version of SMiLE, and do it in time. Brian, suffering increasingly from his illnesses but endeavouring - and largely succeeding - to hide them and get the job done, needs support from the Boys and from the label. They, in turn, need his assurance he has sufficient idea of what the album's going to be to get it done quickly. This he can't give, so a vote is called and it's decided to scrap SMiLE, at least for now, and do something simpler in order to meet their demands to the label and stay in the public eye. Brian, as quoted in BD, knows he needs another six months to finish up and work out how it's all going to go together, and they just don't have that time to give him.

There is always the intention to return to the tapes (it'd be a massive investment, in all senses, to just decide to junk the whole thing forever so easily), hence Taylor's description of "scrapped", but they'll just do something else while Brian "cools out" and is ready to finish SMiLE up. We know how this turns out.

2. Meeting, then memo.

Same stimulus, essentially, only the first deadline is likely to have already been missed and the rest of the band want to make sure they have an album ready for the next one. They ask Brian how long he'll be and, more crucially, to start making some decisions about what will actually be on the record so they can start finishing off pieces and not endlessly reworking old ones and beginning new ones. Brian is utterly unable to articulate his ideas. In desperation, it is voted on and decided that Carl will take responsibility for collating a track listing and they will complete SMiLE as a far more orthodox pop LP than originally planned. Brian, who though none of them realise it, is slipping further and further into his illness, either tries but fails to comply - or his confidence shattered, abrogates responsibility almost entirely to the rest of the band, particularly Carl. (Hence the sessions for "Tones" and "I Don't Know", and the bizarre distraction of the Dailey recordings.) Finally, he decides to try and do with the Heroes single (up till then, NOT one of the record's more problematic or complicated tracks) what he wanted to do with the whole album, and the endless grunting-doo doo doo-ing-seemingly pointless re-recording-fragmentary H&V sessions begin. We know how this turns out.

**********

Either way, this all seems to tie in with all the other info we've received over the years, and if anything clarifies much of it. The most interesting part of this version of history, if true, is that SMiLE as originally conceived was actually dead in '66. The '67 sessions are specifically singles; H&V re-recorded and held off in the battle with Capitol, Vega-Tables as an alternate release on their own label, Da Da for reasons we just don't know. But SMiLE, as conceived, written and almost entirely recorded by Brian and Van Dyke, dies in December. And, removed from those increasingly formless and manic '67 sessions, doesn't the project as a whole seem so much more focussed, so much more understandable, so much closer to a final reality?

Almost all the songs, up until December, have a pretty relatable and documented structure. (Lead vocs and sequencing seem to be the big absences from a practical viewpoint.) Perhaps this is part of the problem - SMiLE wasn't proving to be as avant garde as Brian had hoped. But all this "twenty seconds of stuff we couldn't put together" stuff Brian's been saying lately is pretty hard to accept considering we have '66 rough assemblies, mix downs, edits and mixes by Brian of H&V, CE, Worms, GV, WC, Wonderful, CE, VT, OMP, CIFOTM and the demo of Surf's Up - that's got to be well over 80% of the record.

And, with the exception of the changing structure of H&V/"Great Shape" - at least after November, as all indications are the Verses/IIGS/Barnyard structure (with YAMS around in March to boot) was pretty solid right through till the Humble Harv demo - none of these contradict each other. I mean, there isn't an edit of Child with Bicycle Rider or one of Wonderful with "Grand Coullee Dam" interspersed. Yeah, "Iron Horse" may not have been part of Cabin Essence originally, but it works and we have a rough assembly of these sections together - while we don't have a version of Worms or Wind Chimes with "Iron Horse" inserted.

That's not revisionism or reductionism; it's entirely borne out by all contemporary (1966) recording, comment and quotation. Perhaps there were to be "Three Movements", but - and I utterly believe Mr Reum and his sources there was a vote in December - if the death blow came then, it must have been a result of Brian's genuine, medical inability to get the last few yards across the finish line; not because the album itself was so far away from completion or comprehension.

In short, SMiLE was following Brian down the rabbithole, and not the other way round.

But if this meeting happened and SMiLE abandoned in December, and the '67 sessions stricken from the record, I would argue that we're actually closer to a completed record than if we date the death of the album to the following year. Food for thought.

Boy, I can't wait to see how long the posts are gonna get once the box set actually makes it out!

*laugh* Sorry! I didn't actually realise till posting quite what an epic that was. Will happily retire from the thread for the moment.  :)

No I wouldn't. I have my own opinions. As much as I love and admire Brian Wilson's music, there are many spots where I wish he'd done things a bit differently. And if I were with him in a group, I'd tell him what I think. In a group you have the right to do that and question people. Even if your leader is Brian Wilson. I think Chris is absolutely right.

Sorry, wasn't complaining about the length, truly! I was just thinking...here's a lonnnng post using info from before the box-set release...this must be just the prelude!

Hell no, don't retire!

Don't, that's a fabulous post!

Type away without apology say I. Most of us have done our share of long postings.

Everything you say could have been. It's just the way I see the most contemporaneous evidence does not support it. Brian's recent revelations of the past few years have sort of swum around and don't trump what had gone before for me. Maybe something on the boxset will change that for even a hard head like me.

Thanks guys - was by no means hurt or offended, I'm just not much of a poster and have never been quite sure on the etiquette!  :)

Cam - not sure because of the posts quoted in your reply, but if you were responding to me, I'm very interested to know what the contemporaneous evidence is (sessions? Press quotes?) that makes a December vote unlikely. Incidentally, when I first got into SMiLE - in the early days of the 'net - your essay(s) on the Shop and message board posts were probably the most influential on me and my views of the project of all the "SMiLE scholars"; I like to think that like you I take a fairly historical/analytical view of events and my theories owe as much as possible to context and first hand sources. In fact, my recent swing to the "Veggies/Wind Chimes as part of The Elements" school has left me feeling vaguely traitorous! But that's a post for another time!  :)

Very interested to know how the evidence leans away from Mr Reum's suggestion of the end of the project proper occurring in December.

Yep, I meant you. Not sure how I muffed the quote, that wasn't the post I wanted to quote. Thanks for the kind words.

I'm not sure I'm going to have time soon to make my case but generally it is based on the quotes from the time, an apparent misreading of Anderle's interview, session info, and stuff. I don't doubt there was a meeting of some kind, I just doubt the Boys or anyone cancelled any of Brian's plans for SMiLE. Maybe I'll be proven wrong before I even get around to it.

Hi Cam -

All I can see is my previous post quoted. Were you replying to it?  :)

I see a reply under your quote. Is it just me?

Can see it now, couldn't at all this morning. Very strange.

No problem, Cam - hopefully the accompanying book makes some of these things clearer!

Cheers
Will (The_Holy_Bee)

This is a good point; the words were still in contention, and probably Brian wasn't able/willing to just record vocals that were outright strongly objected to by Mike.

What's interesting to me is this question: why didn't Brian just go ahead and sing his own lead vocals, or at least lay down guide/rough vocals on at least some of the songs (that are currently left without any leads)? One album earlier on Pet Sounds, Brian sang the vast majority of lead vocals, more so than any other Beach Boys album (almost where he's in the Mike Love lead singer role of the earlier albums). (This also begs the side question - were Brian's leads on the early versions of "Here Today" and "God Only Knows" done just to get ideas down as a "scratch" track, or were they at one point in consideration for being the final version?)

I wonder, did Brian have in mind for the others to sing more leads on SMiLE than on Pet Sounds? I guess we won't know which band member(s) Brian would have had sing leads on the songs, or if he had even gotten to the point of considering such things. Maybe he only started thinking in terms of laying down leads once he had the backing tracks of a good collection of songs finished and refined - to the point where the decision of which band member that Brian chose to sing each song might have been a consideration of not just each song, but its place and "feel" on the album as a whole.

I suppose a number of the songs were just not pieced together fully enough yet to even get to the point of singing a lead. So frustrating.

To me it always gets back to "Smiley Smile".

The release of that has always shot down any argument that the other Beach Boys caused SMiLE to be abandoned.  If "SMiLE" was "f**king with the formula" than "Smiley Smile" was anally raping it with an ebola infected d***!

I have always ascribed to the theory that Brian did not finish it because he was not mentally able to - the vision had faded.  Group resistence might have played a part, but that speaks more to Brian's issues than anything else.  The Brian of 1965 would have been able to finish it.

But then consider that between SMiLE being scrapped and Smiley being recorded, two things changed the face of popular music. Monterey and, much as it pains me to admit, Srgnt Pepper.

Autumn 66', when the group were (allegedly) voicing their concerns about SMiLE, was a far different landscape than Summer 67'. Any concerns were moot by then.

Also consider that by the sound of it, most, if not all of the band were now smoking dope by the time they did Smiley. This would also change your outlook and judgement.

There is truth in all the reasons given for SMiLE's demise.

But yes,  ultimately the decision rested with Brian

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Post of the year, decade, century, millennium, you name it!

She's goin bald and Gettin Hungry also have Mike Love credits, I get the feeling Mike preferred it when that happened.  Lyrically Smiley Smile might be a bit zany but regular folks can follow a lot of what's happening there is no "over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" or "culminated ruins domino" instead "I'm gettin hungry for my kind of woman" and "sure would like to have a little pad in Hawaii".

Also there might have been a bit of panic by that stage the band might have had a taste of the idea of the retreat of Mr Wilson and been thinking something is better than nothing.

but it still has Heroes and Villains and Wonderful on it, those are songs with strange words. 

Yep, but you get less songs with abstruse lyrics.

That's one of Brian's contemporaneously self-stated reasons for scrapping SMiLE even over the Boys' objections: Brian thought the words were "too arty". I'm sure Mike was happy to have his lyric on two songs [I would be] but apparently they are there because Brian preferred they have Mike's lyrics.

The Boys didn't want SMiLE scrapped, so I'm thinking their wishes aren't reflected much in what happened in that period. Judging by the session docu and the raw tapes, Brian seems the opposite of retreating with Smiley, he is more involved and working harder and more all over Smiley than anything previous.

Also, She's Goin' Bald may be about something realistic, but it's still really really weird. Just the fact that they're singing about it. I'll say that She's Goin' Bald is even more strange than Wonderful.

http://www.examiner.com/beach-boys-in-national/the-beach-boys-smile-review

People may have voiced concerns, but it makes basically no sense to imagine that at this time, at the height of his power as a record-maker, that the group would vote down Brian on anything.

For that matter -- and this is one of those contradictions that never ceases to amaze -- Mike sang his lines on Cabinessence. And well, too.

Where is this Brian lead on "Here Today"??? I've never heard of this? I have The Pet Sounds Sessions box, but I'm not familiar with this. Is it on there?

Yes, disc 3.

Brian's vocal for "Here Today" is way too rough around the edges to not be just a scratch vocal. Not double-tracked, and just very... erm, tentative? It's not bad or anything, but it sounds much more like a guy putting an idea down than a formal vocal.

I am very puzzled by the lyrics to "Whistle In". They do not make sense to me.

 ???

And then there is "With Me Tonight":

On and on she goes
I know for sure you're with me tonight

What? That's it? I'm just not getting it.....

 :-\

I'm not sure there's much to "get" necessarily - Brian just needed dummy lyrics for the little musical ideas he was coming up with, and I doubt he gave the lyrics on those tracks more than a few moments of thought.