The Smiley Smile Message Board

Diamond Head....Part of Smile?? This could easily be part of the Smile Sessions Extra tracks or does this track have no place within Smile. To me it does sound like a great track to go after Mrs O'Leary's Cow cause it sounds like a fire flicking out and going into water sounds of Diamond Head. Agree or disagree??

I don't know.  People keep bringing this song up but, to me, it sounds more Smiley Smile than Smile.  I know Brian had it on his famous early-rough-draft-BWPS list, along with Time To Get Alone, but to me it just doesn't sound like Smile.  Don't get me wrong, I do like the song, but it sounds like a loose jam because, well, it is.

Disagree.


It's a great song and it doesn't have the usual structure of a typical Beach Boys song but that's about where the comparisons to Smile end. It doesn't have the kind of fullness that pretty much every Smile track has and it's overuse of non-instrument or non-vocal produced sound make it entirely unlike anything recorded for Smile. To me, it has no place whatsoever. But it's still a very interesting song.

To me Diamond Head sounds more Smile than Time to Get Alone to my ears at least. Glad to see it was in an early list for BWPS but I think their may of been an uproar if it was included??...Not by me lol :)

Well, niether Diamond Head nor Time to Get Alone were Smile tracks, which is a pretty good reason why neither are on the forthcoming box set.

More over, it depends on which Smile track you're thinking about. Wonderful sounds more like Time to Get Alone than Diamond Head for example. But really the aesthetic for both TTGA and DH are different than the one used on Smile.

For me personally  Diamond Head follows on from Mrs O'Learys Cow perfectly and seems to be a nature end for the Bicycle Rider who started from Plymouth Rock and finishes at Diamond Head :)

Fair enough. Again, though, it is not a Smile track and wasn't recorded in the same period and doesn't sound like it was. It has neither the scope nor the grandiosity of the Smile music nor does it really have much of the inventiveness. The kinds of things that are taken from nature on DH would have been achieved with instruments had the song been written during the Smile era. Again, it's still a cool song but to me, just doesn't fit at all with Smile.

Also, if you want to consider the theme of the Bicycle Rider journey, it's all really accomplished in Do You Like Worms - there is a Hawaiian section on that song which basically finishes things up.

Very true I'd forgot about the Hawaiian section in DYLW. Maybe Diamond Head was recorded for inclusion for Smile which may of still be released in late 67, or 68?? I'm just thinking out aloud

There has to be some link to Smile if Brian was considering it for the BWPS live presentation. I remember hearing about this weeks before the first show, so it must have been seriously considered.

Haha - I appreciate your curiosity.

Again, though, I'd have to say no. I don't think there were plans to release Smile in late 67 or 68 (DH was first recorded in April 68) and if there were, certainly not from Brian who was mostly in charge of the track. As was noted above, the track seems to be a consequence of a jam session. Check the writers credited for the song and you'll find session musicians. Again, too, I must insist that the song really bears very little resemblance to the sound of Smile and that itself is a good indication of it not being associated with the album in any way.

So...TBHWY, this is the first I've heard of "Diamond Head' and "Time To Get Alone" being considered for Smile in '04...source???

I think though that the original Smile presentation was much looser. It's already quite loose - things like Love to Say Dada which itself has a very vague connection to the album is included - but it seems like originally they were throwing in as much as possible even if there was no connection - mostly because they appeared to be going for a thematic approach rather than any attempt for authenticity. There was a real drive to push for a Hawaiian theme at those concerts too - they placed "Hawaii" into the pre-show setlist, Dada lyrics turned into a song about Hawaii. It's not surprising that they would consider Diamond Head even though it lacks a connection to Smile.

Gosh, the only part of "TTGA" that sounded anything like SMiLE is the little instrumental break that seems to borrow heavily from Look/Song for Children. I presume that was just sort of recycling thing--"well, we didn't get to use 'Look', so I'll just use that lick for TTGA..." After it had already been used, by the way, on GV...

"Diamond Head": I still don't hear it or feel it, as being a SMiLE thing. Maybe it was sort of an "early clue to the new direction" Brian might have had before he gave up being the full-time BB honcho. Always makes me wonder--if he had finished SMiLE, and it had done well, what would have been next? (And my guess would be: still something very much like Smiley Smile--the usual pattern with groups who had big ambitious "trip" albums was to come back to earth for something simple...which I think is generally a good plan. Otherwise they'd get in that horrible game of "oh, cripes, we've gotta top Mount Everest now...")

Babble, babble. Sorry.

Whoa, there Cowboy. Dada is the only song on the live presentation that post dates the end of the Smile sessions, and just barely. Doing Hawaii in the first set, nor any song in the first set or encore has nothing to do with the Smile set. The Movement sequencing may or may not have its roots in the live presentation of Smile, but the songs themselves were all authentic.

Well, you basically just repeated what I said. Dada is connected to Smile, though vaguely. And I suggested that what became BWPS was an attempt at an authentic presentation rather than what was perhaps a more thematic presentation in draft form which included songs like Time to Get Away and Diamond Head.

Yeah, to me it would stick out like a sore thumb from Smile because it is an entirely different aesthetic presentation than anything on the Smile album. But certainly that wouldn't stop me from putting the two songs together if I liked the way the transition sounded.

I've got Diamond Head in my SMiLE mix, starting with Liitle Pad and crossfading the two at 2:06. The percussion comes in just after the last note of Little Pad fades out.

Maybe neither song was slated for SMiLE but it sounds f*cking perfect to my ears after DaDa.

You stated that BWPS was "quite loose" do to Dada. You confused me, maybe still do. How does one song, possibly the very last Smile song, make it loose? Also, if Brian was going to use TTGA and Diamond Head, who is not to say that all or parts of those songs were composed during the Smile Era? There had to be some connection, because as it stands all of the other songs used on BWPS were from the Smile Era.

I believe I was told...

This was the result of some very early ideas for these live shows (not the recorded album) and the idea was to play Smile (or portions of Smile) along with other tracks that were not "Smile" specific but were written around the time of Smile but would fit with the material, thus including other tracks that were written before or after that would stand well alongside the Smile material. Keep in mind "Time To Get Alone" was first tracked in October of '67, so likely had its beginnings at least a few months prior.

That was probably poorly worded etc. but y'get the idear, rite? :)

i think there are a lot of stuff we don't know about smile but brian ain't never gonna tell cuz thats just how he is

Mmhmm. Breaks mah heart, as the people who know stuff aren't gonna be around forever :(

From Plymouth Rock to http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576609000066845070.html

THE MYSTERY GAPES WIDER.  :hat

Perhaps. But take "You're Welcome". What we know of "I'm In Great Shape" (as opposed to what was done in '04). The mock ragtag production concept behomd "Vege-tables". I think Brian was looking to add a few homespun moments to Smile.

I was shown a copy of the tentative possibilities for a live Smile sequence back in 2004. The handwriting wasn't Brian's.

What was the "Smile" concept?

Van Dyke and I wanted "Smile" to be a musical tour of America through the eyes of kids—from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head. We wanted to show people how American music had evolved over the years.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576609000066845070.html?KEYWORDS=brian+wilson+++smile

Time To Get Alone and Diamond Head were on the preliminary tracklist for BWPS, was that an aesthetic decision and nothing more? It was confusing to place them in that context and it led to questions of the origins of those pieces of music. Diamond Head...that was a studio "jam session" more or less conceived by Brian and Wrecking Crew musicians who were well versed in Hawaiian music: Lyle Ritz who is a legendary uke player and Al Vescovo who was first call on lap steel in LA. Brian basically turned them loose and recorded it and even credited the guy who made the "ping" noises on a spring reverb unit as a co-writer.

So the genesis of that tune wasn't in Smile, unless we want to lump anything sounding vaguely "Hawaiian" with the Smile concept, and that would be incorrect. I guess that may have been why it was left off BWPS. :-D

You really want to turn this into a semantics debate? Okay, well, maybe you wouldn't use the word loose but in the context of my post, it seemed appropriate. It's not just loose because Dada. It's also loose because they used mostly the Smiley version of Heroes and Villains, the demo lyrics of Good Vibrations, other bits seemingly from the Smiley era like Whispering Winds (though I'm not too sure, but it certainly seems a part of SS since it's on the album), and the inclusion of pieces that probably wouldn't have ended up on the album had it been released in Jan. 67 (Holidays, Look, and certainly Dada). Had it been Brian Wilson Presents the long lost Pet Sounds, Trombone Dixie would have surely ended up on the list, with new lyrics from Tony Asher.

And because many posters here are very quick to assume that someone is being critical of BWPS when they are not, let me say that I love the live performance, love the album, love the choices that they made, love the songs they included, love the order of the songs - wouldn't want it any other way.


As AGD suggests above, it may not have been Brian's decision to use those songs at all.


I think the composition credits on Diamond Head strongly suggest that the song was written somewhat on the fly by studio musicians who recorded it in April of 1968.


And TTGA and DH are not on BWPS. Like I said, maybe in draft form, there was a looser conception of what BWPS was going to be from certain people so that it didn't have to just include songs from the era but other songs that fit thematically. Once that idea was discarded, BWPS was shaped the way we know it now - a gathering of songs specific to the Smile era.

Anybody else here interviewing Darian soon? I'm sure he knows the reason(s) why both tunes were up for consideration in 2004.

Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

Andrew, didn't that list have Dada on it too, as I recall?

I'm sure it did. Why should that matter?

Because you said this: "Um...yeah. That doesn't suggest that Diamond Head the song was from the Smile era. I think there's a reason why those chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968." Why do you and I go through this so much. You really need to reread what you write. How can your reasoning that one was rewritten to replace the other when both were on the list?

Dada was on the list with Cool Cool Water.

.

The production and engineering on Diamond Head, especially the drums, congas, special effect sounds, and steel guitar,  reminds these ears and imagination of Little Pad and Workshop sort of combined. 

The same guitarist who played on Little Pad, Al Vescovo, is on Diamond Head and I believe whatever other "Hawaiian" songs Brian used lap steel at this time. Or maybe just Diamond Head and Little Pad, either way it's the same guy. He was one of the few steel guitarists in LA who could read traditional notation for steel guitar, which is why he got a lot of studio calls to play specific written parts. On Diamond Head I think they followed a chord/form sketch rather than specific notes.

Diamond Head sounds remarkably similar to the production on Les Paul and Mary Ford's "Lover's Luau" album from 1959, especially the use of slap echo and reverb...it's a very similar aural sheen to the tracks, and a similar pulse in the rhythm of the songs. I was going to do an A/B comparison tying it together with the other Les Paul video featuring Heroes.

Absolutely! I would not be surprised if the that middle section of Diamond Head was a Smile Era composition.

My understanding was that the list was drawn up by (I assume) the band members at the outset of the project to turn Smile into a live performance, and shown to Brian so he could approve the inclusion of those he wanted to include, and knock back others. It was SMiLE-based/oriented but its scope was wider, to include songs that folk weren't sure should be included or not.   That was BW could give the final, authoritative judgement on whether DH, TTGA etc etc etc were really SMiLE-origin tracks or not. The fact that he obviously must have rejected them implies they weren't, to the best of his memory.  That's my interpretation of the memory of the list. It's posted on this forum somewhere in the depths of history and I think Peter Reum will have a much better (and far more accurate) recollection than mine.

I think you need to reread what I wrote, personally. The reason why we go through this so much is because you draw conclusions from what I say rather than accept what I say - that has been the basis for virtually every argument we have had. I am not suggesting that Love to Say Dada was rewritten to replace Diamond Head. Rather, there is little evidence to suggest that Diamond Head was ever part of Brian's agenda when it came to BWPS. So let's just eliminate the "rather than use a song about Hawaii from 1968" part of the sentence since that's what has confused you. In that sense, I am saying, if he wanted to convey the journey from Plymouth Rock to Diamond Head, it makes sense why he would turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii. So now, the question becomes, why not choose Diamond Head? To which the answer is, Diamond Head was not a Smile era song which is why it was not considered to for the final draft of BWPS. In other words, there's a reason why they chose to turn Love to Say Dada into a song about Hawaii rather than use a song about Hawaii that was produced in 1968.

My recollection was that the list was for the live performance and I recall seeing it within weeks of the first RFH show. Now, whether it was an old list, I cannot say, but it was touted as the first playlist for the live performance.

What the live Smile was changed a great deal.

Originally, Jeff was asked to be in charge of it. He started listening to the archival tracks (or at least I recall him saying this in an interview). And we have this original list -- which is not, in any way, connected to what was played at the first shows, or at any BW shows. My guess has always been that this list dates from that early brainstorming. And part of that was that they were just going to play Smile-era tracks as a group.

At a certain point, Darian became involved, and Jeff was no longer mentioned. Actual, archival tracks began to be presented to Brian. Who know what the thought was then -- probably a little more historically accurate, a little more focused on Smile proper. And when Brian made the call -- and this is perhaps the most important single creative act Brian did in 2003 -- to bring back Van Dyke, the whole project shifted yet again. That's when the notion of trying to complete it thematically came up. I can't help but think that Van Dyke's presence allowed that to happen.

You are right, there had to be a reason, but we really don't know. Yet, In Blue Hawaii & Diamond Head were both on the list as I recall, though not absolutely certain. Also, since we are not speaking, but writing, you need to be more clear in your writing like you are with this last post. Yes, I do draw conclusions from what I read. I use my brain to think. I only know what you write, not always what you mean.

I write as I have been trained to write, as a published PhD candidate of Literature studies. I'm afraid I'm not particularly interested in changing my writing style now, especially since it has served me quite well for readers whose profession demands for them to use their brain to think. If you'd like me to link you to my published peer reviewed work in PM for evidence, I will gladly do so. Or, if you wish, I can link you to the work-in-progress on the academic journal that I have been asked to co-edit.

Not necessary. I have a degree too, so what? We are, what we are. On this board I tend not to be over analytical when it comes to figuring out Brian's head or the Smile album. I have stated my thoughts and opinions many times throughout these threads on each subject, and there are no real or ideal answers to either. I try to just keep to the facts as I know or understand them, and hopefully I learn something new along the way. As for Smile, for me it is what Brian wants it to be. I have no need to theorize on what shoulda or coulda in 1967. Since 2004, I believe as Brian believes, that how it is presented now, is how the "adventure" should be experienced. That quote of his just sums things up perfectly for me.

Umm, let's not forget this:

8. Da Da (Taped Piano Strings) [LOVE TO SAY DADA / COOL, COOL WATER; Da Da Session: 12/22/66] 
9. Da Da (Fender Rhodes) [LOVE TO SAY DADA / COOL, COOL WATER; Da Da Session: 12/22/66] 

Still curious how 1965's "Three Blind Mice" tape connects with Smile...

You make a good point.

Good point about three blind mice too. I always thought it was only a try out for Brian to see if he could work with a lot of musicians??

Does anyone know what is that brief racket before the percussion comes in at the beginning? Is it water rushing and rocks falling or something?

It sounds like to me a fire coming to an end

It sounds like spring reverb from  a guitar amp.  If you have the spring reverb turned up full and then shake the amp, this is exactly the sort of noise you get.

So was it intended to sound like natural sounds of some sort? It's a racket. Edit it out and go straight to the percussion and Hawaiian guitars and shove it to the end of Little Pad and I'm anyone's  8)

It's meant to sound like a volcano erupting. Diamond Head is a dormant volcano.

Or an external Fender Reverb unit, basically a bigger version of the spring reverb tank inside certain Fender amps housed in a cabinet with more controls. If you either kick, bump, or jostle a Fender amp with reverb springs, that sound will come out. The Reverb Unit can be seen in any number of Beach Boys concert films or photos from the early to mid 60's, right near the backline of amps.

Danelectro did an awesome thing with a reverb simulator pedal they had on the market about 10 years ago: It had a touch pad that you could tap with your foot and the sound of the springs bouncing around would happen.

For "Diamond Head" specifically, whoever it is on the songwriting credits not named Wilson, Vescovo, or Ritz was apparently the guy who was messing with the reverb springs on the session to get those effects. Nice way to score a credit. :-D

VDP's whole involvement was hugely serendipitous - if Brian, or anyone at all, had been able to read the word "indians" on an old lyric sheet, the original phone call would never have been placed. Think about that.