The Smiley Smile Message Board

Barnyard, Vegetables? Are they the Yellow Submarines of Smile?

Moderator!

the phrase "on the air" should be ground up and fed to rodents.

Huh???   No kiddin', call the moderator.   ::)

Speeches? BW seems to have thunk so… VDP more so…

Huh? Barnyard is one of the coolest things in the Beach Boys canon...and Vegetables is iconic...nothing like it anywhere. My kids really like Yellow Submarine, so i have no problem with that either...but I remember in its time it was very bizarre.

Everyone in this thread is banned for DARING to insult the LEGACY that is Smile. Harumph!

You just named two of my favourite tracks..

Somebody toss this person a carrot.

and the Mellow Yellows.  And to my mind Barnyard and Vegetables are two of the best examples of the humor Brian wanted in Smile.  Absolutely essential to the project IMO.

Yeah have to agree on Barnyard - one of my favourite pieces of Smile. Vega-Tables was actually my least favourite Smile track with the exception of maybe Speeches, until the recent mix for the box set. It's totally transformed the song for me and I think gives a much better sense of what it could have been.

Its an agree fest...I completely agree with your Vega-Tables assessment. Although I've always loved the quirkiness of it...I'd never heard a mix or edit that wowed me until this new one. It's f'n GREAT.

I don't like On a Holiday

It's one of my favorite compositions. I love the " Rock, rock and roll, Plymouth Rock rollover" refrain. The rest of the lyric, so-so.

if you mean by "child like" like YS then I would say Vegetables,H&V and bicycle rider could be kind of childlike..YS isn't that bad of a song IMO it's fun..it's not their best bbut it's nlot their worst IMO..but if you mean "bad" then I can't say they are bad in any way..

lolololololololol

"Barnyard", "Vegetables", etc. are cool as all hell. Lesser than the likes of "Good Vibrations" or "Surf's Up" =/= dispensable.

[Oh sh*t, why not?] Yes. Some of Smile is dispensable. Obviously. (Someone or another has thought so for the past 40+ years, anyway. What, there was gleaming gold sitting there and it was withheld for...why, again? Ahead of its time? My ass...) And I'd hazard a guess that every single person here, once over the euphoria of the release (once there is such a thing--still a solid 3+ weeks out and thus worthy of our collective held breath), will admit it. But the specifics? Good luck. Obviously this attraction for him is the detraction for other-him. The best thing about it is that. Inherent contradictions make it interesting on some level to everyone. But then the weakest parts to A are the strongest to B.

I might agree with this if we hadn't had a good 90% of what's on the box already for several years, in some cases decades, at this point..

And I might agree with this if we hadn't had a good 279 pages of Smile Sessions discussion on this board. And a very relevant analog from 2004, when for a few brief seconds, every cynical, sarcastic, asshole admitted that s/he (who am I kidding ... mostly he) loved what was being presented. And anyway, your disagreement doesn't have much, if anything, to do with the point. Unless you're saying that nothing in Smile is dispensable because we've had most of it for a long time. Which I assume you're not saying.

Everything from Smile is sacred, even Teeter Totter Love.  :lol  (Can`t wait to finally hear it!)

I'm saying the fanbase's general opinion coming to the conclusion that some of it is dispensable would've happened ages ago, not after the release of this box set.

That's interesting - personally, I find the new mix a bit jarring... IMHO of course, I still prefer the Smiley version, and hooray for TSS coming out.

Essential to SMiLE:

Our Prayer
Gee
Heroes and Villains
Do You Like Worms?
I'm in Great Shape
Barnyard
He Gives Speeches
My Only Sunshine
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
Look (Song For Children)
Child Is Father of the Man
Surf's Up
Can't Wait Too Long / Workshop
Vega-Tables
Holidays
Wind Chimes
The Elements: Fire
Love To Say Dada
Good Vibrations

can't settle for anything less

Where has this surfaced? Or did you kids hear it due to your job etc.?

Luther, sweetheart, where were you all that time?  :angel:

I've never really understood why or how some people consider Good Vibrations part of SMiLE. Yes, I know it most likely would have been included had the album been released in 1967, but to me it just doesn't fit. Parts of it are included in Look, but that's about as much of a connection as I can make out of Good Vibrations being part of SMiLE.

Fair enough. For you, it doesn't fit.  For others, it does fit.  And one of those "others" is a certain Brian D. Wilson.  So it's on there.  And it's the only track listed on the front cover.  Three times. 

Perhaps it fits better with the mood of the album, rather than musically. I guess you could say that GV is a "happy song". It kind of does fit with the overall concept or "theme" of the album, now that I think about it.  ;D

At the time that Brian was doing Pet Sounds he was composing songs or 'feels' using descending scales on the piano mainly. This was strongly influenced by J.S Bach in particular. By the end of Pet Sounds Brian moved on to composing songs using 'two-chord' progressions. One can see this especially in the last track recorded for Pet Sounds, "Here Today". The inverted chord bass lines that feature in Here Today also feature in Good Vibrations and on a lot of SMiLE tracks, the only difference is that these tracks feature ascending scales also, hence why they sound 'happy'.

Hi John,

Not saying that Bach *wasn't* an influence on Brian, but he doesn't seem to have mentioned it much. Gershwin, Lawrence Welk, the Four Freshmen and Chuck Berry, yes, but not JSB that I recall. Although he did say in his pseudo-biography that God Only Knows was influenced by John Sebastian... but that's someone else altogether, and may have been completely mangled by the ghost writers, or indeed made up from thin air for that book.

I'm also not sure about the use of descending scales in Pet Sounds, and ascending scales in SMiLE, and a consequently sad/happy split between them. Here Today features a descending *and* ascending scale bass run, and I'm not sure it's a 'sad' tune. Reflective, perhaps, a tad regretful, possibly, but not maudlin... And is 'I'm Waiting For The Day', sad? More *defiant*, if anything. Similarly, not all SMiLE songs can be said to be happy or have ascending scales. In Cabin Essence, the cellos ascend and descend. In H&V the verse vocal melody does nothing BUT descend. And is Cabin Essence 'happy'? Is... 'The Old Master Painter'? Surf's Up?

I don't think this stuff fits neatly into categories. It's art composed by someone talented who frequently worked in a very instinctive way... and music like that doesn't often fit into simple patterns or pigeonholes.

Matt

The one thing he mentions specifically pertaining to Bach is the 'shuffle' of California Girls. Cos I'm an idiot, I don't know the name of the piece, but it's the same one as Lady Lynda, right?

Well, Lady Lynda was based on 'Jesu, Joy Of Man's Desiring' (which I used to sing as a throughly naughty, non-believing choirboy)... but I don't get the shuffle reference off that tune...?

Wish I could remember the interviews in which he does it - He's said it a lot this year.... I think in this interview? I can't listen to it atm http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2011/05/24/brian-wilson-clip/

"Brian Farts Into The Piano" although not influenced by Bach (Mozart perhaps?) still has a flow about it. Maybe it will surface as an extra track with a Best Buy purchase of the boxed set.

Edit: I forgot to mention that although the melody of BFITP at first ascends it drops off in a descending manner. Still sounds happy as phuck to me!

I used to hold your opinion, but after really listening to the album, and then reading/talking it over here, I changed my mind.

I think 'Good Vibrations' has a great cousin in 'Cabinessence' - it has the buildup of the chorus, the cellos, the amazing coda. Also, Good Vibrations fits the boy-girl theme in wonderful. I was told, by a fellow member here, that Good Vibrations is a kind of 5th element - the ethereal element that binds us all together. So there is connection - personally I see it as the song that binds it all together.

The album cover says "good vibrations" 3 times and the radio spot plays GV. So yeah I think that sufficient evidence that the song would have ended up on the album.

I believe that this track is the missing "Air" portion of the Elements suite. Brian described this section as a short piano thing, and this fits the bill.

Hence why he said it would have most likely been included on the album. ::)

Oh yeah, my bad. No need to roll your eyes at me.

Well wait a minute, how does GV 3X equate to "most likely"? How about definitely (at least at the point that the album cover was created)?

Fair enough.

Didn't mean to come off like a jackass lol. I do see what Sidewinder is saying 8)

THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!

JAY HAS DISCOVERED THE MISSING PIECE OF SMILE THAT CAN RENDER IT COMPLETE!!!

It was so obvious all this time....why didn't we think of it??

Smile was going to include...."Happy Song"! It's what Brian, Van Dyke, and Eck conceived!!!

Well wait a minute, how does GV 3X equate to "most likely"? How about definitely (at least at the point that the album cover was created)?
[/quote]

You people are overlooking the  obvious.  3X means GV would appear on the album three times, once in the single version, once in the Asher lyrics and hum de hum vocals, and once as "Good VibrAtions Pt 2" - an arrangement of five or six sections that were left out of the final mix.

Vegetables is crap. The sort of bilge that any two stoners could have come up with. Only because it was recorded at that time is it so overrated.

o okay.

;D

Some Facebook site apparently.

wow, that's just wrong

Let me add this to the mix, a quote from David Anderle within a year of when all this happened, and Anderle as manager at that time would have been the liaison for a lot of issues with Capitol, so he was actually there:

"he was forced to put 'Good Vibrations' on, something he never wanted to do was put a single onto the album, but he was forced to do that. For sales. That was another, I'm sure, a minor tragedy for him."

I'm reminded of those folks arguing over "Sloop John B" appearing on Pet Sounds.

I'm also reminded of the Smile cover which had text, something to the effect of "GOOD VIBRATIONS GOOD VIBRATIONS GOOD VIBRATIONS"

So the quote from Anderle means nothing at all? We should ignore it, or what?

It's been awhile since I've read that interview, but as I recall Anderle was referring to Smiley Smile there, not Smile.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - even if it was referring to Smile, I'm sure Brian knew that there was no way he could leave it off the album even if he wanted to, being that it was their latest single (not to mention being their biggest).  It would have been a losing battle with Capitol no matter what he wanted.

Okay, but Anderle was talking about GV being on Smiley Smile.  GV had been out for 11 months when SS was released in mid-September 1967.   Aside from the fact that GV is more Smile than Smiley in terms of production values (i.e., studio vs. homemade), putting a hit single from almost a year earlier on an album is a totally different proposition from putting it on an album in the winter or spring of 1967.

Neither of us is 100% right or 100% wrong, unfortunately Anderle was a little ambiguous about which album he was referring to.

The full quote:

David: "Vegetables"
Paul "How was that going to be?"
David: "Not like it is on the album. It's on Smiley Smile, it was changed quite a bit. See, all that stuff was changed, because Brian...none of the tracks are on Smiley Smile. Some of the songs are there, but he's recorded them in the house. "Heroes and Villains", yes, some of the tracks were from the original. Ah...he was forced to put 'Good Vibrations' on, something he never wanted to do was put a single onto the album, but he was forced to do that. For sales. That was another, I'm sure, a minor tragedy for him.

I think what Brian tried to do with Smiley Smile is he tried to salvage as much of Smile as he could and at the same time immediately go into his humor album. Cause it's so - I hear elements in that of our discussions about the humor album, just little pieces of it."


And earlier, at the beginnings of Anderle's involvement, he had to persuade Brian to keep Good Vibrations for himself and the BB's, after Anderle's other client Danny Hutton wanted to record a version and Brian was ready to sell the song off to other artists and move on to other music. Anderle was apparently one of those who convinced him it was "good enough to keep" and more work was done on it.

With that history...the ambiguous quote, the Hutton connection, Brian wanting to give it away, the Asher lyrics, Van Dyke refusing to write lyrics for it, recording for Pet Sounds...it's up for debate at the very least.

For me, the final word on this matter is that GV is on BWPS.  In 2003/04, Brian was under no obligation at all to include GV (or anything else) in BWPS.  In fact, one could argue that the need to royalty checks to Mike Love might have motivated Brian and his camp to exclude GV.   And no one would have blamed him.  But he didn't.   GV is there, apparently because he wants it there.

There is a contradiction in Anderle's words as well: He is loud and very clear with this: "something he never wanted to do was put a single onto the album", yet how does that explain not only Good Vibrations but also Heroes (a definite single which was even mixed by Chuck Britz as a single in early '67) and to a lesser degree "Vegetables" which was being bandied about as a potential single (and reported as such).

So what is the nature of that contradiction? Heroes = single = included on Smile and Smiley Smile. Vegetables = possible single = included on Smile. Good Vibrations = single = on Smile. Is it because Good Vibrations was developed before early 1966 that he didn't want to include that "single"? or was Anderle confused or merely blowing smoke?

Yet Brian was against having a single on the album...maybe the phrase from Anderle "he was forced to do that" can take on more or less weight depending on your opinions of the issue.

Or the final word could be from 1966 Brian Wilson himself:

New Musical Express,   No. 1036,    18 November 1966

"Meanwhile ... what's Brian doing back at base?"
HOLLYWOOD, Tracy Thomas
While the Beach Boys are rocking Europe, BB-mastermind Brian Wilson, has not been resting on his and their laurels !
This week Brian’s working on the next Beach Boys’ single, another adventure in pop music called “Heroes And Villians,”…

Brian’s also working simultaneously on the next BB album, now entitled “Smile.”
“This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks,” says Brian…

But using Tony Asher's Pet Sounds-era lyrics, which obviously and definitely would not have been the case on anything dating to 66-67, Smile, Smiley, or otherwise. Those lyrics were discarded and replaced the moment Brian asked Van Dyke to write for the song early in their friendship and Van Dyke refused. Apparently Van Dyke if he were even asked also refused in 2003 because they went back to Asher's discarded verses. It probably would have made more sense to ask VDP for new lyrics, but would that have gone over with the fans? It would have been interesting, for sure.

Find the one where "Vegetables" is named as the next single, it's the one where the meeting with McCartney is reported. Then I'll scan and post clippings detailing Smile as including "The next single Heroes And Villains" and other tracks by name yet not mentioning Good Vibrations, but specifically saying "twelve songs by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks" (GV not falling under that umbrella) and another small magazine clipping detailing the history behind Good Vibrations stating Dennis was originally supposed to have sung the lead but got laryngitis and couldn't do it. Oh, and the Dennis interview where he claims to be the organ player in the slow section of Good Vibrations.

See the problem with those newspaper and fan-mag clippings?  :)

I’m not stating that every article from every magazine is 100% accurate. Some of them, like the one about the Vega-Tables single, are just statements made by the reporter. The one that lists the "twelve songs by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks," but not GV, is based on a wire from Derek Taylor (article called “Beach Boys’ new disc lasts five minutes” from ’67.) However, the article I was referencing is an interview of Brian Wilson in November 1966 by reporter Tracy Thomas. Being interviewed, Brian makes the statement in November 1966 that: “This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks.” It is a direct quote from Brian Wilson, at that time, stating his intentions.

Notice that it is also the only time Good Vibrations is brought up, the rest of the Brian quotes in the article are about Heroes and Villains and staying in touch with the Beach Boys in Europe. Why even bring GV up? So unless Tracy Thomas was just lying and making all kinds of stuff up, Brian Wilson said this. Right???

The issue wasn't whether Brian said this because he's quoted - that's obvious. The issue is the sentiment expressed by Anderle; perhaps it was about Smiley Smile, but what if it were not? Was it how Brian perhaps felt about Smile? Can it be proven from that quote either way? I don't think so.

Consider Anderle acting as the manager for Brian and the BB's would have had the most *direct* contact and communications with Capitol on many of these issues. More than perhaps Brian himself, in fact it's safe to assume that was the case. If Capitol said "we need a single to promote the album", would they not have dealt with Anderle who was the manager? His insight is key. If Brian were "forced" to do anything it would have gone through Anderle. What he was exactly forced to do and when is the issue.

Consider a few short points: Who made the decision to add the "Good Vibrations (x3)" banner to the Smile cover, and when was it added? Who made the decision to print adds hyping "the Good Vibrations sound"? It seems like standard practice from record companies, especially Capitol in 1966.

"Dispensable" depends upon the cumulative caloric value of the entire piece. My guess is that since some of the pieces are unfinished, you can't have enough calories. Bring 'em all on!

See, that’s why I like this article (the Tracy Thomas one.) The story always goes that Smile was compromised by the Beach Boys, the record company, etc. and Brian got down about it but I think this points in the other direction. This is also the first mention of any track list at all that I know of and it’s 12 tracks and includes GV, a good month before the disputed handwritten list. The Beach Boys hadn’t come back from Europe yet to “complain about all that weird music” and Good Vibrations had only just broken into the top 10, only been on the charts a few weeks.

As far as the cover goes, there is a memo dated 11/14/66 to Queens Litho stating: “CHANGE STEREO BAR ON NO T-2580 BEACH BOYS TO DUOPHONIC BAR FROM T-2545. IT PRINTS ALL BLACK.”
So if there is a version of the cover with a stereo bar on it that also includes the 3x’s Good Vibes then it is from sometime before the middle of November meaning the design goes back a reasonable amount of time before that. Good Vibrations was just starting to become a hit at the time the memo came out, two weeks earlier it was just entering into the top 40, at #38 so it was barely a hit. Now in July 1967 I could see Capitol pushing this #1 hit on a record but a #38 in October 1966 seems a little less important.

Also, you mention Brian’s feelings about Smile, being compromised and all. Ok, this actual interview must have taken place between November 11, 1966 (the previous issue of NME) and November 14, 1966 (the last Beach Boys date in Europe, since the article is about the Boys being in Europe) so we can hear exactly how Brian felt about Smile at the time: the Vega-Tables arguments (with Hal) took place on the 16th.

Finally, the Anderle interview. Reading that first little bit it’s hard to understand but with seeing the whole statement I read it like this:

David says, “Some of the songs are there, but he's recorded them in the house.”

Then he goes on to qualify that statement with the two tracks not rerecorded at the house:

“ "Heroes and Villains", yes, some of the tracks were from the original.”

AND


“Ah...he was forced to put 'Good Vibrations' on,”

So he is talking about what was recorded and not recorded at the house… Smiley Smile.

Three of mine.

Parts of the interview are cryptic and ambiguous, I still think some quotes could have several meanings. But where Anderle had said specifically that Brian did not want to put a single onto the album, number one it's possible to connect the dots but we still can't confirm he was talking about Smiley Smile from what's included in the interview. And as you suggested earlier, Good Vibrations was the single in Fall-Winter 1966-67...it was old news. Heroes And Villains was the much-hyped single. Did Brian have a problem with that single going on Smiley Smile, or was it just the previous single GV? That's not clear: It's left to assume, and that only goes so far. So was Brian against the entire practice of interrupting the flow of an album at that time with a single, or just a single from the previous "season" of record sales?

Keep in mind all labels and major bands did this. "Daydream Believer" was put on Birds Bees & Monkees well past its shelf life to push sales of that album. It was cut during Pisces Aquarius. Look at what Capitol did with Beatles singles in the US! A hodge-podge, a mish-mash of releases to create albums like Magical Mystery Tour...which contained "old" singles as well. It was standard practice. Perhaps Brian's problem was with the practice.

And consider this: Smiley Smile was released on Brother Records under the supervision of the band working first through Anderle's management and then through whoever took over. Part of the lawsuit settlement in Spring '67 was that the Beach Boys would have this new label and would have a say in what got released. "Brian And Mike", "Gettin Hungry", anyone? That was a good single?

So how could Capitol "force" anything like GV going onto Smile if the band won the ability to control the releases on their own label, Brother? Again, Anderle was *the* manager of Brother who instigated the lawsuit and helped set the terms with the legal team. Why would he use the word "forced" relating to GV when the BB's had control over their label? Or was that control through Brother less than we assume it was relating to Smiley Smile?

Interesting to note in contrast to putting a single on an album that Brian had a habit of putting an album track from the previous album on a current single as a b-side. I believe that even extended up to "Long Promised Road" b/w "Dierdre" even though that probably wasn't his sole decision at the time.

Maybe it wasn't strictly Capitol but Brian himself who made the fans have to keep purchasing the same material?

'Forced' could simply have meant that Crapitol leant on Brian and that Brian was too weak mentally to resist at that point.

Hey, Harrison, I think you're the only one on this board who would refer to Capitol as "Crapitol" at this point.  What has Capitol Records done wrong lately, eh? With all the good stuff they've put out (Beatles & Beach Boys) the last 20+ years (and still to come) what is it that warrants calling them "Crapitol"? I'll bet Capitol employees would really appreciate reading your post here. Just dumb.