The Smiley Smile Message Board

Hi everyone. I think the Smile track with the most uncertain structure is Vega-Tables. I want to give it a try and find out what structure Brian Wilson would have used in the 60's. Here's the versions we know of:

The Smile Sessions: Verse - Do a lot (fast) - Verse (backing vocals, I threw away my candy bar...) - Do a lot (slow)  - Smiley Smile vocal part - Verse (I know that you'll feel better when...) - Bridge (Piano+vocals) - Fade (Part 3)

Good Vibrations Box Set: Verse - Do a lot (piano)- Verse (backing vocals, I threw away my candy bar...) -Bridge (Piano+vocals) - Verse (I know that you'll feel better when...) - Do a lot (slow) - Fade (Part 3)

Vigotone (early Mark Linnett mono mix?): Verse - Do a lot (piano)- Verse (backing vocals, I threw away my candy bar...) - Do a lot (piano) - Do a lot (slow)

The last mix seems to be cut from the Arpil assembly tapes which are on Secret Smile, it's exactly the same parts in the same order. Do you think the fact that the piano Do a lot appears on all sessions tapes makes clear it was going to be used? I think that the inclusion of the slow Do a lot on the April assembly track could mean it was going to be used as well. And do you think the 2 mix rehearsal tracks on UM 17 say something about the song strucure?
Paul

I think that this is a really good question. I will speculate that of those three, the ML88/Vigotone version might be the closest to where is was left pre-Smiley. Someone can probably prove me wrong on this, but I feel like the 88 ML material is the most likely to be the least f***** with. I think that the GV box began the era of re-ordering of the modular parts (Heroes sections for example) to drift away from the actual state of the 1967 material as it was left. I am not willing to draw a hard line on this and maybe someone who has been around this material longer may have a better sense on this. If you really want a safe choice, the "Cornocopia version" is a complete presented structure. I like that that version best. It is really weird and represents what I would hope SMiLE to be: a really bizarre album that reflects the mind of a very creative man (on drugs).

Do we know if the 'Cornocopia' version will be on the box set?

The only problem with the early Mark Linnett mix is that the "I know that you'll feel better" verse isn't present. The vocal is present on the double vocal part, so maybe they would cut it out later (including seperating the two vocals) and put it between the last two do a lot sections.

Should be CD 1, track 23.

I feel that the new TSS version is close to get it right. You can see the names of the sections as originally labeled on the tape-boxes in the Sessions tracklist, and even without hearing it it's easy to guess which section is which (and in November we'll know for sure). e.g. the rising "bop bop bop..." that leads to the fade in this version is likely "Insert (part 4)", and it is very likely that it was concieved as an insert before the fade (there is no other section that could lead as flawlessly to the fade). Similarly, the fast and slow Do a Lot are probably "Chorus 1" and "2nd chorus", respectively. Slow "I know that you feel better" to fast "I know that you feel better" is clued on the Smiley version, etc. I'm not claiming that this is exactly what Brian would have done in April '67, but it gets close IMO and to me it sounds fantastic - the best structure of the song I've heard, by far.

The song probably started in a much simple manner, as H&V did, and was closer to the 'Cornocopia' version. Then in April, Brian started (typically) to add sections as the fast and slow Do a Lot (which was recorded previously in a simpler form with piano accompanying), the "Ballad insert", "Insert (part 4)" and the fade (which was 'cannibalized' from the Heroes part 2 variations).

I think the new version is too complicated to be the correct order from April 1967. And wasn't the Smiley Smile vocal part recorded during Smiley Smile? I think that could mean it wasn't orignally intended to be included.

In April 1967 Brian was into complicated structures. Remember that he wanted Vegetables to be the follow-up to Good Vibrations! The Smiley tag is from the Smile sessions proper, IIRC.
The new version flows perfectly for me and sounds pure '67 Brian (except a couple of too smooth edits), and it turns all the bits and pieces we have into a cohesive, perfect pop song (which is where most versions fail IMO).

I think that the new version is too cherrypicked and polished. I think the ML version with the doubled vocals was more 1967 imo.

I love the new version, but given that this song was at one point considered for a single, this particular edit would have been far too long to be releasable back then.  I agree though that the structure has a very authentic feel to it, and it flows better than any I've heard before.

I don't think length is a problem.  It comes out to 3:49 and "Good Vibrations" was 3:40. 

Never imagined someone complaining about to good edits, what a peculiar world we live in.

Yep. It is.

There is a difference between 'LIKE' and ''RIGHT"

IMHO I think the new VT is the 'right one' - the way Brian intended it as part of SMiLE - I also like it - two different things

..always did love the "hey baba ruba" ending--glad Mark put it into this edit...

The new mix differs quite a bit from the versions we knew till a month ago, even from BWPS. I think there are two possible reasons for this: or they tried to use as many pieces as possible in the new mix, or they have found some historical evidence for this new structure. I hope the latter is the case, as I think the reconstructed album should be as historically accurate as possible.

Being said that the edits are good but the parts do not in my opinion fit that well. Clearly the "i know that you feel better" part should end the song. The "bop bop" edit should be before the ending.
The added end part seems to have no place in the song.

Say, has anybody recorded the new TSS version off Facebook? I can't find it on YouTube and I don't want to join Facebook for that. PM me if necessary.

Wow good point, for some reason I thought it ran well over 4 minutes - my mistake!

We can use this thread to discuss the original song structures of any Smile song. What do you think of Child Is Father Of The Man? There are two vocal mix structures, but also a instrumental mono mix. I think the instrumental  mix is the closest to the original structure. The only problem with it is that BWPS uses a different structure. But the piano part (bridge, which strats of the vocal versions) is at the end of the song, just like in the instrumentla mono mix.

Could someone pm the track too please?

And to add a question: what is known by now of the new included on disc 1 of the 2cd/Boxset?

I like the new edits/mix, but I'd like confirmation of the chorus 1 and chorus 2 corresponding to the two different versions of do a lot.  We actually have three versions of do a lot, the piano accompanied one (on the "rough mix" that used as the basis for the GV box set version, that you can hear as the second TSS track on Facebook), the one with the drum and vibes (used as the first chorus on TSS) and the electric piano/rattling percussion/more elaborate vocals (Mike's "row row row" backing vocals) version.

When you listen to the Sea of Tunes sessions, both version 2 ("chorus 1") and version 3 ("chorus 2") do not come to cold endings, and are too long - implying that they were intended to fade out rather than come to end and then go back to a verse.  It's possible Brian intended to edit them into a chorus, but why not have an ending so you can make the transition easier - unless he was unsure how long he wanted it, and wanted the flexibility to cold end edit it in different places.

I think the second Facebook track is chorus 1, and version 2 was to be the fade, only to be replaced by version 3 as the fade.  The fact that version 3 is at a slower tempo than 2 and the rest of the song also makes it a likely candidate for a fade rather than a chorus.

After these sessions Brian came up with a new fade, "Fade to Vegetables" which is the end piece on the TSS track and was the last thing he recorded for Vegetables until he started work on the Smiley version.

The a capella "I know that you'll fell better" is of Smile vintage, traditionally ascribed to March because it's on a March assembly tape (with cornucopia and the piano/vocal child piece) but the thinking is it may have been recorded later on that March reel during the April sessions.  We'll know more when the box set sessionography comes out.

So my tentative theory is it would have run somewhat like the TSS Vegetables except chorus 1 would be the piano/vocal version.  the "bop bop bop bop" piece I think was meant (like the Smiley version) to precede the a cappella "I know that you'll feel better" part.  The problem is I don't have a chorus 2 - which is why Mark crossfaded the version 3 with the Fade in the GV box set version, because he had two fades back to back.  I think the Al sung (with piano accompaniment and backing vocals) "I know " section would precede the "scat" section which would
go into the final candy bar verse.  The session on SOT with the Al "I know" appears to be another verse section and not a fade, although it was made into one for the Smiley version (with a vibes overdub).  Since Brian replaced the version 3 do a Lot with "Fade" he may have recorded another Do a Lot for the second chorus, or possible edited the version 3 do a lot to make it a chorus (as Mark does).  Remember, he never finished the Smile version so he may very well have recorded new pieces (or rerecorded pieces) to complete it.  The a cappella Brian "I know"
could have transitioned into "Fade" - it works quite well and is probably the only piece, other than the "bop bop bop" part Mark uses, that does.

The instrumental 3 minute mix clearly WAS the song structure as conceived by Brian during Smile, at least at some point - it doesn't mean he wouldn't change his mind.  It's a rare Brian mono instrumental mix from the Smile era and I'm frankly shocked they didn't use it as the template for the disc 1 version, but they went with BWPS instead.  the structure, if I remember correctly , is chorus/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus.  There are two different vocal mixes for the chorus - one may be early and the other later to replace it, or possibly both were going to be used - it was not uncommon for Brian to add an extra level of vocals to a second chorus or second verse of a song.  He would also add instruments often to the second verse or chorus - like saxophones - but in the cut and paste sectional method he was using, he was recycling the same instrumental passages for the verses and choruses as he did later for Smiley.

Apparently didn't go with BWPS for Child, but came up with an entirley new structure - it is reported to be veg-reel piano section/bridge/chorus/verse/chorus. If it's indeed true, they probably have a good reason for that - it is confirmed that (at least part of the mix) is mastered from acetate.

Yeah, isn't that why the other mono mix isn't there--they have an acetate of a different version, implying he revised the song (or that this is an earlier version, but still a Brian creation).

Well we have some tape assembly edits of the pieces of Child, with different combinations of bridge/chorus and chorus/verse/bridge, so it wouldn't surprise me that some "test edit" of the pieces ended up on acetate.  Doesn't mean the final track would  have been anything other than the 3 minute instrumental mix though.  I'm just hoping what went into the decisions (like acetates and tape box notations) on the mixes are spelled out in the book, but somehow I doubt that will be the case.

I don't think so either, but I'm hoping that after the release Mark will be brave enough to come on here and answer some of our more nitpicky questions, such as this one.

There must be a good reason why they wouldn't include a vintage Brian edit (even though we're already getting at least one), so I think it's certainly worth asking if the liner notes don't explain.

Brave enough?! He can't do it for fear of being fired and sued within an inch of his life!

In the meantime I took a look at all the Vega-Tables mixes again, and now I think the new mix might be very close the the 'original' structure. It seems quite logical: a second Do a Lot after the second verse, the bridge before the fade, and the fade closing the track. The only thing that seems a bit superfluous to me is the vocal "I know that you'll feel better", without it the track sounds more structured and coherent to me. But if you want to include all the pieces recorded, the new mix is possibly the only logical way to do it.

Personally, I would have put in that wonderous musical bit that Brian stuggled to get right  "I put away my candy bar and i ate the wrapper".

It's absolutely fantastic.  One would assume it will be on the box somewhere.

It's "I three away my candy bar and I ate the wrapper" isn't it?

And what about the sessions for the two Do a Lots showing they were not recorded as choruses but as fades?

I just listened again to the Sea of Tunes Veggie sessions.  Do a Lot "chorus 1" (or versioni 2) is about 1'05", and chorus 2/version 3 is about 1'10" (the vocal sections of the tracks).  Both too long to be recorded as the chorus.

If you listen to track 20, the instrumental insert ( keyboard overdub) the overdub attempt is continuous through the "I know that you'll feel better" part and the "candy bar" verse.  That would indicate they were to follow each other and come after the first "do a lot" (again, typical of Brian to add something to the second go round of verses or choruses, either another layer of vocals or extra instruments).

Furthermore, track 36 which has some mono mix attempts has the end piano part of do a lot go into the scat vocal section directly into "I know that you'll feel better" directly into "I threw away my candy bar" verse.

I rest my case.

OK, next track: With Me Tonight. First of all: when was it recorded? The only track on the Smile box "You're With Me Tonight", seems to be recorded during SMiley SMile so that may be the Smiley version. Is the track represented elsewhere? There are three versions we know of, the slow, the fast, and the Hawthorne, CA version. Was it originally intended for another song, or was it a track itself?

This is a good point. I hadn't noticed the date on that. It does appear to be a Smiley session! Wow. If that is the case, that would be really odd because the other three bits of WMT don't appear to be on the box, which is a shame because they're all great.

I hadn't noticed either, how strange.  I rather enjoy the fast version myself, I'm surprised that didn't make the cut.

I thought I'd read somewhere that it started as a part of "Heroes" (like half the album, it seems), which wouldn't surprise me but I can't say for sure.