The Smiley Smile Message Board

Watched Beautiful Dreamer again last night and wondered, what is the status of David Leaf?  Inner circle, outer circle, hanging out somewhere with Joe Thomas and Rocky Pamplin? 

Pretty soon he'll be blown away.

:lol

Rocky Pamplin is one detestable person from what he did to all the Wilson brothers. Not sure what David's been up to...

What did he do?

Isn't he the guy that did a little ding danging with Marilyn while Brian was off buying dildos for masseuses or whatever? Um..  :o

Yeah, that's him.

Beat up Carl and Dennis along with having an affair with Brian's wife.

"Inner circle, outer circle, hanging out somewhere with Joe Thomas and Rocky Pamplin? "

Brian's going to work with Thomas again, so all must have been smoothed over

Marilyn had an affair??  :o

Yeah but, c'mon, the guy was a Playgirl centerfold  :hat


Edit: that's Rocky, not David  ;D

Yeah, and at one point, Brian climbed into bed with them, hugged them, and told them he loved them. Strange nights indeed (most peculiar, mama)...

I believe David Leaf is still making films, the last one being the Harry Nilsson doc. Good stuff.

Right now, David's kinda inner-outer circle. Ish.

Thanks.

From certain books I got the image of Stan and Rocky as a "Hans and Franz"  "we're here to pump you up!" sketch from Saturday Night Live. Two muscle-bound jocks browbeating Brian into getting fit and dragging him around various exercise regimens in the name of "shaping up", then berating him if he reached for a smoke or something. It's actually not funny in the big picture but the image of Brian hiding, sneaking cigarettes and junk food while those two jocks were looking for him is sort of funny. Considering these people were successful, wealthy, grown men acting like kids.

In retrospect, maybe I should have referenced Nick Grillo and Stephen Love instead....

Lotta respect for David. His California Myth book fuelled my love of this music and woke me to Smile proper; as I understand it he played a major hand in getting Brian touring along with the health benefits that brought; played a big hand in getting the BWPS idea acceptable to Brian; … and handed me my first-ever back stage pass to meet Brian at a M&G back in '02 at the RFH! Without all that, we might not be where we're at now, waiting for the postman in early Nov.

Andrew'll correct me if I'm offline with any of this but David's a good soul in my book.

Looking strictly from the outside, I tend to agree.  Reading his reissued book when it was released in 1985 was my first real introduction to the Beach Boys.  I had the chance to meet him briefly twice and he was gracious each time.  In no way did I mean to compare him to Rocky Pamplin.  Poor taste, but it was a just a reference to someone no longer in the circle...

Leaf is one of the people I feel never let the facts get in the way of presenting the Brian and 5 buttholes view. In fact I would go so far as to say that he made the problems between the band worse. I really wish I never had the misfortune of talking to him. Priore and I had different views as well but he treated me with a lot of respect. I was only just starting out back then in writing and was very polite to David. He just acted like he was too good to be talking to me. For me I learned from him how not to approach the band or people in general.

He's a propaganda artist. I don't particularly care for his writing.

Same exact view I have of David. I was an orig. subscriber to his Pet Sounds fanzine, and I first met David in the '70's when we were both hardcore fans. I was very disappointed with the way he ignored the importance of the other Beach Boys in his California Myth book, and he mainstreamed the habit of heaping overblown credit on the Wrecking Crew, and ignoring Carl, Dennis etc... for their instrumental contribution to the BB's recorded output. When I approached him to help me (at the suggestion of a mutual friend) with some info for my Dennis Wilson book back in '98 Leaf was rude to me, and he pretty much blew me off. I figured he was having a bad day or something, but he did it again a couple years later. I think of California Myth and Beautiful Dreamer as fiction, nicely presented but insubstantial...because as Mike said they don't have much to do with fact.

Thanks for backing me up on this Jon. Why am I not surprised?

 I should point out that people like Jon, the late Byron Priess, and Andrew are genuine and have helped me over the years with my own research unselfishly.

Sorry to go off topic, but Mr. Eder, I am SERIOUSLY excited to read your book. Please find a way to get this thing out there. I will definitely be a buyer.

And, yeah, David Leaf, I gotta admit, after reading that book it seriously leaves the impression that Brian was so horribly treated by his friends and family all the time. I've now came to accept it was pretty much up to him that Smile was scrapped, and that his workload kept getting lighter and lighter. Up until like '75, I'd pretty much say Brian did what Brian wanted, when he wanted to. Then there's his way of seriously overrating unreleased material. The man actually made "Lazy Lizzie" sound like it should be on Pet Sounds Part Deux. Yes, he was right about "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling" and "Sherry, She Needs Me", but still he is/was a Brianista of the highest order. I also agree that he didn't give Denny and Carl enough credit for their helping out with their brother. I also think the Beautiful Dreamer doc was complete garbage. At first I liked it, but then I realized what a one-sided portrait was being painted, and how this was the equivalent of an infomercial for BWPS. It was after this that I realized how ridiculous it was that he nearly always ignores the other Beach Boys.

On the other hand I gotta say that I really did enjoy his Harry Nilsson documentary.

glad to see some back up by legit people.
Somehow, I hope David does a search for himself on google and finds this thread!  >:D

Is this true?
what's your source?

It was posted on this board recently; I can't remember the details exactly.

Hope Joe cut that terrible mullet!

What on earth?

Outside the relatively select community of BB researchers, what does it matter if David Leaf is standoffish or not?

To blame him for the view of Brian as the auteur of the Beach Boys shows more ignorance of history than he's accused of. Try Derek Taylor in the 1960s. Try Dennis Wilson, he of we're just the messengers.

This has nothing to do with Leaf. This has to do with the fact that the Beach Boys is a business, still, that makes a lot of money for a lot of people. And a lot of those people still resent the acclaim that Brian has garnered while not "working" like the touring band. These folks have worked diligently over the years to diminish the credit BW receives.

Anyone who thinks that these folks aren't engaging in their own, long-running and well-funded PR campaign is delusional. And that Brian is now without his PR guy -- well, it's certainly convenient for them and their reunion plans, isn't it?

Thanks I am really excited for everyone here to read it. I am very hopeful that I can get it out. I am open to any suggestions publisher wise.

Wirestone as far as David, if he is brought up I say my piece. Sure I am openly not fond of him, but my beef today is not so much that he was rude, but that his work is slanted. No he alone did not make up the myths but he sure as hell convinced a lot of people of them. If you read my book you will see I am hard on all the guys (including Brian) when I feel they didn't give things the effort they should. I think you can see that on my posts, and yes I dislike the p.r. since 1976 on all of them. My point though is that when The Beach Boys were in their pre Endless Summer prime, they all did some great work. Brian and Dennis were one of a kind talents, but the others helped make it happen. Carl, Mike, Bruce, Al, David, Ricky, and Blondie all had considerable things to offer, and Brian (and in later years Dennis) brought out the best in them. That the Beach Boys were a great group is all I ever wanted to say, and I hope that my work offers proof of my view.

My thing with anyone I write about is that the facts are more interesting then the myths. I try to form my own opinions, and also try to be even about things that are either over rated or under rated. My book is subjective as far as how I personally rate the music, but my goal is that the facts are presented in a way that let's the reader form his or her own view. Maybe my views can be thought provoking or informative, but I try to make sure that people understand that they are just my views.

Well put Mike (and Jon, as well).

Thanks
BTW what are Cornuts?

These f*ckers.
(http://snacks.cyberpunks.org/cornnuts.jpeg)

Oh yeah I don't think I ever tried them :lol! Fritos are good though.

"Is this true?
what's your source?"


A journalist friend recently 'interviewed' Brian (from which he's just recovering) and was told by the lad himself.

I approached David Leaf for an autograph at the intermission during the 2nd London RFH Pet Sounds gig in January 2002. He asked how old i was (22), how many people i came with (none), and gave me a meet & greet pass for after the show.

Have I ever been happier in my entire life than that day? Possibly...

You're not related?   ;D

Seriously, this thread is an eye-opener. Leaf's book helped fuel a fire in me for this music and I can't take that away. Yes, his DB doc was very one-sided, yes his punctuation in sleeve notes could do with some attention, yes he's a Brianista. But he pointed me in the right direction, ultimately.  Jon, Peter Carlin, AGD, Craig, and others do a much better job getting the facts right but his enthusiasm rubbed off on me and I suspect many others. In many cases we might not be here, on this board, broke, contemplating the most expensive music purchase of our lives, otherwise!  ;D

Like most folk in the BB (fan) world, David polarizes opinion. He's never been less than kind to me, going back to 1985, but some of his statements and actions have been ill-advised.

 he has always been very friendly to me. many many times. always.

Mike, I hate that you had a bad experience with David.  But I recall when you first had your book idea (you may still have been in high school), you were calling and writing people to introduce yourself, and asking for access to any unreleased / unbootlegged tapes that they had, for your research.  That may have gotten David's guard up, and he may never have gotten past that.  After 30 years of collecting, I still have never received a single unreleased tape from David; he's very private in that way.

He also has shunned participation in any projects that relate to the entire group, as opposed to focusing on Brian.  I've talked to other folks who've requested interviews with him for magazine articles on the Beach Boys, and they met with a similar cold reception.

All this aside, I'm excited that you've finished your book!  Unfortunately it's a tough market out there for printed media right now; ESQ's subscription level is off almost 50% from our high-point -- before the proliferation of information on the internet.  Good luck to you, and keep me posted.

Lee

i agree with those who say his enthusiasm and romanticism can be valuable in that it draws a lot of people into the BBs fandom. It helped draw me in-- though of course mostly it was the music that drew me in. I believe the Beautiful Dreamer document is not THAT bad and is valuable for the footage it gives us of Brian and the band. I thought criticism of Leaf for implying that Paul McCartney was there on the opening night of SMiLE was petty, as filmmakers often take those liberties. But it's true that there are some gaping holes in the story Leaf tells.

Leaf's reduction of the story to the simplistic "these are the heroes and these are the villains" viewpoint often happens in history textbooks, too. And it's dangerous and irresponsible and unfair. But the romanticism does draw people in. I remember seeing the A&E Biography of Brian, where David Leaf discusses that photo of Brian as a high school senior, with ink on his shirt. I think Carlin explained in his book that Brian spilled it himself and posed for the photo as a joke. But David Leaf ignores the ink and says the fact that Brian is standing apart from his classmates looking sad is indicative of how "different" he always felt. I couldn't help but roll my eyes when I saw that. It's an example of how Leaf takes a grain of truth (Brian IS different) and spins it into something that's not accurate. But what a tragic hero Brian makes, eh?

hmmmm..

The proliferation of uncirculated material usually depends on those individuals who have it to begin with. Trust is a big thing. As is keeping your mouth shut.

What? What'd I say?

I'm thinking Steve might have reacted to my post, but that was not aimed at anyone in particular. Just the law of the land. It's like that with any band that has fans trading unbootlegged stuff.

Beet up Carl? I can understand why someone would want to fight Dennis, but Carl?

It makes me think of this

http://youtu.be/_PbZgY40HAI

The Gaines book details an incident in early 1978 during the group's Australian tour. Allegedly, Brian had been provided by either cocaine or heroin by Dennis or someone close to Dennis. Somehow or another, Carl was implicated in the situation as he also had a bad heroin and cocaine habit around that time. When Rocky pressured Carl for information and Carl told him "f*ck you", Rocky punched Carl out and told him "don't ever tell me to get f*cked".

How ironic that Rocky was so anti-drugs with the Beach Boys and he later allegedly ended up in Hawaii as a raging coke addict.

BTW, if you ever find Rocky Pamplin's rendition of To Sir With Love (with Brian on piano) online, TREAD CAREFULLY. It is HIDEOUS.

More liked knocked Carl out with one punch. And he didn't exactly "fight" Dennis. He and Stan Love ambushed him, blindsided him, and beat him to a pulp with furniture...nothing close to an actual fight.

Yeah, that part of Gaines's book was totally f***ed up... Pamplin seemed like a total sleaze-bag too, for obvious reasons!

Hi Lee yes I was just out of high school when I had the idea for the book. If I recall correctly I didn't ask David for tapes, but did want to interview him or get some advice on the writing business. I did make it clear it was a Beach Boys book, but I really tried to be low key with him. I had no problem with him not wanting to help out, but I just wish he had been a little more kind about it. It was just kind of shocking especally at the age I was. But you know what, it toughened me up and made me more determind to get the facts straight. Also I make a point to be polite to anyone I come into contact with, so in the long run it helped me. 

I do want to thank you for your help and support when I got started. I will be sure to mention ESQ in the book and how to subscribe. I think I have some good people behind it and I just got an offer from a major publisher to do an Elvis book. Hopefully that and everything else I have been a part of over the last ten years will make it possible The Beach Boys book to get out there. As it was my first real idea for a book it's kind of like my baby.  I won't give up on it and I hope our friend Jimmy Carpenter (who I have worked with many times) will be able to do the design. Take care

The thing was Rocky seemed proud of this stuff in the book! Gaines mentioned on here a few years back he actually has a tape of the 1978 meeting with David Frost where Carl gets punched.

I think the one thing I learned about the BB community no one forgets and seldom forgives. Unfortunate, but true.

David Leaf was nice to take my two phone calls, he yelled a little during the second one, but he also wrote back when I wrote him later on.

It's obvious that he's in Brian's corner & maybe without his stance we wouldn't be seeing a SMiLE release in November.

I also loved his liner notes all along the way. One less than factual aspect about his writing was that it was true believer stuff about the possibilities possible.

Leaf's "keep the faith" attitude toward Brian has paid off for all of us.

David is the reason the Smile stuff is on the 1993 Box from Smile, and also helped Brian through 2004. Both those factors contributed to this year's favorable reaction from Brian.

It mattered to me. Back in the late 70's I almost met the "standoffish" David Leaf. At the time, he was writing the Pet Sounds fanzine. A friend of mine and I went down to L.A. and were in the neighborhood and decided to drop in to meet him. He lived in an upstairs apartment at the time, and we had his address and apartment number. We climbed the stairs and he was coming down the stairs. I recognized him from a picture (probably from the fanzine) and we said hello to him. He looked at us and told us he wasn't David. He was definitely David Leaf - unless he has a twin brother! He stopped and looked at us, and we told him we were big fans of the Beach Boys. "No! I'm not David!", he said in a tone like we were bothering him. I know we showed up unannounced, but as big fans of the Beach Boys and his fanzine, we just wanted to visit with him for a few minutes to talk about the band and ask him where we could see a couple of old BB sites in L.A. and if he had 'connections' to meeting any members of the band.

After that, I bought three copies of his book, saw him at a Beach Boys convention and one of Brian's shows, but didn't bother to approach him. He's probably a nice guy in Beach Boys fan circles like you guys say, but I thought he was too high on himself, so eff him. 

It seems that a lot of people are very black'n'white in the Beach Boys world....some people are very love 'em or hate 'em.

FWIW, I did enjoy Leaf's twofer notes (despite the factual errors later found out) and his book. I don't think Beautiful Dreamer is so much fiction as it is very one-sided, but I still love it...heh...I went to the second Carnegie Hall Smile concert, and I remember seeing David Leaf in the back of the hall after the show. There was practically a reception line forming in front of him of people shaking his hand, patting his back, etc., complimenting him on Beautiful Dreamer, which had just aired on Showtime.

But still, his "Brian good, everyone else (including Christ himself) bad" attitude -- or at least the implied attitude -- is a bit disturbing. One semi-insider I spoke with (who now is no longer with us; guess you can figure out about whom I'm talking) said that David went so far as to say that if hell exists, he believes that's where Carl is because of how he treated Brian.  Uhh...???

What?, Murry and Carl don't belong in the same place. Everybody loved Carl and Carl helped free Brian from Landy.

Eventually... and remember, Carl was party to the decision to re-engage Landy in the first place.

Is even Murray bad enough to deserve to go to hell?

And Carl lived to regret that decision in many ways. The whole Landy experience was very painful for him.

Murry sits at the right hand of God, folks. The man was a saint & sinner like all great men. A chaos, duality, madness. To reach heaven you must go through the depths of hell first. Tree roots go deep, tree grow high.

Carl was a lot of things but I doubt he "ended up in hell". That's just preposterous.

Hopefully Mr. Leaf doesn't read this board.  :lol

Do you think David Leaf believes in ghosts?

Sorry Mikie. Turning up like you did would creep me out to!

BH?  it's a shame he's not still here to see the release of the Smile Sessions - I'll be thinking of him when I finally getnto listen to it.

Someone somewhere told me Carl, when asked privately about the SMILE album in the '80s, was pretty dimissive of it.  I don't remember who said that, and it was just one person repeating a conversation, but it made me think a bit.  And as I thought about it I didn't remember Carl being super effusive about the music at the time, unlike, say, PET SOUNDS.  Seems like he kept pretty quiet on the topic overall, though he was the one spearheading the '73 release.  Which did not happen.