The Smiley Smile Message Board

Instead of using the "Box Set" Thread, lets use this.

I believe that there IS a second movement to Surfs Up, However, it may not have ever been recorded.

Here's the session worksheet for Surf's Up (Part 1):
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7043/surfsup1.jpg)


Notice the "(Movement 1) tag, this proves that a movement 2 EXISTS but MAY NOT HAVE BEEN RECORDED.

Now, most people who have "Heard" it describe it as "Weird" and full of horns and strings. We know of a track with strange horns "George!"
however, it is, in my opinion, to humorous to be part of Surf's Up, or be a song in general.
BUT the horns on george do sound a lot like the "falling apart" horns on Surf's Up (The second verse).

So, what do you guys think?

oh wow that's the best part of surf's up
now i suddenly care about a part 2

Lol, who knows?
Maybe george was just a warm up for surfs up?

everyone talks about that piece but i've never heard it!

Well, there's no doubt that there's a second movement. Brian wrote the melody, Parks wrote the lyrics, and it was demoed. The question is whether or not Brian figured out what he was going to do with it, and recorded it. As for the former, I honestly find it difficult to believe that at the height of his creative peak, Brian would have figured out the first movement and not the second. I'm sure he had a pretty good idea how it was going to sound. It seems to me that he frequently knew how his track was going to end up sounding, what the feel was going to be, etc. As for it being recorded, it looks unlikely. Maybe what he had planned seemed so epic that it just never came to fruition. It just seems so strange, though, that he wouldn't have recorded it as it was clearly a song he was proud of and invested in.

Exactly, Brian LOVED Surf's Up, and it was the ONLY SMiLE song the public heard back in 67', so WHY would he NOT record it?

That's what i'm hoping we find out with TSS, or maybe, even a release!?!

Because after hearing himself sing it on TV he thought he sounded like a "fairy" and didn't want it to come out anymore.

A very reasonable question.

That being said, most of us are still confounded why Brian would not finish up work on what was at that point his most advanced music. Even that didn't seem to be TOO far from completion.

Again, though, another point in your favor. I can sort of see why he never quite managed to figure out Heroes and Villains during the Smile period. It never seemed to be a complete song. Even at the stage that Brian is playing it for Humble Harv (which happens to be the same day that Brian records the first movement of Surf's Up), it is only really one verse. Surf's Up though seems to be such a complete package. Or (forgive my stream of consciousness)...maybe, on November 4th, Brian and Parks had only written the first part, knowing that a second part would be required and by the time it was written (early December, hypothetically) the vocal sessions were beginning and then the project fell apart.

Thoughts?

He should have recorded it in 1976 with his 15 Big Ones "manly" voice!

I really like this post, comparing the situation of Surf's up to H&V really puts SMiLE into perspective.
Brian knew what he wanted, but he couldn't get it EXACTLY how he wanted, and he is a known perfectionist, so I think that it WAS written and Probably demoed.

I mean, look at H&V part 2, people said "Maybe it exists, maybe not" then we got that released on the GV box.

Now, TSS could give us the "Holy Grail"... lets pray :D

That's what I'd always assumed. As FatherOfTheMan states, it is extremely reminiscent of the "Falling Apart" horns in verse 2 (tho' never heard them called that before).

"George" was recorded on November 7, same day as a Surf's Up session; there was another SU session the following day (this info from www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/gigs66.html).   So it follows – in my mind – that the two must be intimately linked, no matter that they're miles apart in terms of sophistication.

George Fell Into His French Horn WAS a Surf's Up overdub session, recorded the day after the tracking session. I doubt it had anything to do with the second movement of Surf's Up.

Just as a comparison for those who haven't heard it, I cut the two parts out and placed them in one file so you can hear (I don't think it's a rule breaker but feel-free to delete the link if it is)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y7x1lofvxomvikv

It could, however, be a sign of what Brian was thinking about at the time, which could have something to do with the 2nd movement.

Well, I think as far as H&V goes, it was never written as a complete song (at least, as we conventionally think of complete songs) and that's what caused Brian difficulties, particularly when it was chosen as the follow-up single to Good Vibrations, which was currently being a smash. I think the success of GV was a factor. Now the public was really anticipating what was next - the game was on. And at no point in the Smile Sessions from what I've heard so far, does H&V sound ready for a single release nor does it have the kind of hook required to be the kind of hit record that Brian surely wanted before Smile came out. I think that the pressure was enormous for H&V not only because it was to follow up the biggest hit the band ever had, but it could also serve as validation to what Brian had been doing with Smile. Pile on the recording race that was going on at the time and Brian must have felt like anybody feels just before a Tetris game ends and all those blocks seem to be falling faster and there's nothing you can do about it.


Okay, but my sense is that was the title given to the collection of extra H&V pieces that Linnet put together for the box set - it wasn't actually anything that Brian put together during the Smile era.

the slower harpsichord part is "Heroes and Villains Part 2" I think I remember that being proven somewhere...

Source and dates/studio, please ?


1 - proves nothing, other than that someone typed "Surf's Up (Movement 1)" on a Capitol session sheet.

2 - "most people who have heard it"... firstly, that anyone has heard it is third-hand info, and in this instance, those people number exactly 1.

3 - I think... there is no Pt. 2: we'll see in the fullness of time.

No, we didn't - we got "H&V" (sections): if it was really "Pt. 2", that's how it would have been listed.

Why would they write Surf's Up (Movement 1) on a sheet when there's only 1 movement?!

We know there OBVIOUSLY was a 2nd movement planned, that's obvious!

I think the fact that you know of a demo where Brian sings "Dove nested towers" is sufficient.

Part 2 was included as part of the sections, it is added in with the rest of the unused sessions.

Movement 1 = first half. Thus:

Movement 1 - up to the second chorus fade

Movement 2 - "Dove nested towers..." up to "A children's song"

Coda - Brian's falsetto wail.

Q, E and most probably, D.

Said demo was for the entire song, not just the mythical part two - see previous post.

Andrew, is there any chance that the "Dove nested towers..." section is part 2? Considering that the way Surf's Up tracking is presented on the Box Set, that section ends where "Are you sleeping, Brother John" is on the 1971 version. Also, hasn't Brian stated since 2003 that the strings were never recorded for that section of the song?


Later Edit: I see that you answered the The first part of my question, above.

Citation, please: I've checked the booklet and this is what it says: "Remember, what you're listening to are unfinished productions, fragments, demos and tracks. Basically the pieces (especially the "Heroes And Villains" vocal sections) have been assembled in what seems like a listenable sequence". No mention of Part 2... not a BW 1966/67 assembly.

Exactly my premise.

Exactly mine too and nothing that I have written suggests anything else despite your attempts to catch my errors.

Therefore, how does the alleged inclusion of "weird stuff" in pt. 2 fit into this scenario, given the lack of documentation ? Reader's Digest answer - it doesn't, because the alleged tape doesn't exist.

I see where you said just that, but your previous two posts had me unclear too. I've never heard anything else to prove that there was more parts for the song (a different Part 2). :)

Alleged by who? Not me - and I haven't talked about that once, nor have I used to term "pt. 2" to the best of my memory here. Throughout this whole thread, when I talk about the second movement, I am specifically talking only about the part that begins with "Dove nested towers" and ends with "a children's song." Again, it is undoubted that this exists - it was written and demoed. This is exactly what I said and it is exactly true. More over, the statement was merely the beginning of a longer statement. I simply began with that truism and then speculated from there.

Never said t'was alleged by anyone except the guy who told the guy who told Alan.  ;D

Fair enough. In my defense, though, I thought I was making it clear when I said that "there's no doubt that there's a second movement. Brian wrote the melody, Parks wrote the lyrics, and it was demoed." I'm not sure how one could believe I was talking about anything else unless one was making the assumption that I didn't know what I was talking about, and that I operated more on assumptions  than facts.


Me neither.

I'll look for it, but i'm certain I heard that the part after the trombones is known as "Heroes and Villains Part 2"

We can be pretty prone to not seeing the wood for the trees - if you'd posted "there's no doubt that there's a second movement, the "Dove nested towers..." part. Brian wrote the melody, Parks wrote the lyrics, and it was demoed.", why, it'd be nothing but world peace & candy bars.  ;D

 :pAnd considering that the demo was used on the 1971 version proves that out.  :p

Wave an article at me saying that and I'll be a regular little ray of sunshine.  :)

Yeah. Shame.

Is there any possibility that there is some "Dove nested tower" music hidden away all these years?

I suppose not...

Still, WHY DIDN'T HE RECORD IT??? AH! My war wound!

As I stated earlier, Brian has stated in 2003-2004 that he never got around to recording the string section.

To be perfectly honest, I really don't think Brian in 2003-2004 knew either way. I think he was talking as if what he was doing for BWPS was what he was going to do all along in 1966 - in other words, he was going to do the same thing that Carl and the boys did in the early 70s and use his demo except, the difference was that he would add strings to it. And to be honest, I just don't see that in keeping with the aesthetic principles of the other Smile recordings from 1966.

I've often wondered what (if anything) exists in the way of 1966-67 acetates of Surf's Up.  Over the years, various sources have mentioned acetate mixes of instrumental tracks (sometimes with vocals) of H&V, Cab, Wonderful, Barnyard, Sunshine and perhaps a few others, but I can't recall ever hearing about a vintage SU acetate (e.g., of Brian's piano demo, the "SU 1"  instrumental track, etc.).  Anyone?

we've been here before

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,4165.25.html

in a lot more detail

(halfway down p2 et seq)

FFS, that was four years ago - I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday !  ;D

Well said, all things considered it seems likely he had a fair idea plotted out re the 2nd movement. The question that exercises me the most is how did not only Brian but *everyone* in his orbit develop collective amnesia re the 2nd movement in just 3 years? This was THE song of the era, something BW and VDP were really proud of. It would make sense if Carl, Desper and BW got together in '71 and decided they didn't like the '67 idea and went in another direction but it seems no one was even aware  the song was more complete, recorded or not, than the 1st movement track and solo piano version.

I wouldn't expect the 2004 model BW to remember but was music Brian composed for such a huge song already gone forever in '71? I guess it's possible he didn't have an idea how the 2nd movement track would go but that doesn't seem like the '66 model Brian Wilson.

Brian didn't want the song on the album - his sole  last-minute 1971 contribution concerned the tag.

Doesn't the second movement begin with,
"Dove nested towers the hour was strike the street quicksilver moon"?
The first half of the song is completely different from the second half ,hence first and second movements.
Or is that just me?

RE: H&V 'part two', isn't the vocal sequence from the french horn therein on the GV box what was found back to back on a comp reel - that suggesting a possible sequence that needed to be properly mixed together?

Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a Mornay sauce, served in a Provençale manner with shallots and aubergines, garnished with truffle pate, brandy and a fried egg on top and Spam.

No, that was what I had for lunch yesterday. But you're good at this!

The second part is undoubtedly 'Dove nested...' - of course it is, because that's how Brian sang it at the piano when he played it on the CBS/Brnstein show.

Whoever wrote the word 'movement' on the session sheet is responsible for all this speculation. If he'd written '1st part' or '1st section' instead, probably none of us would be having this debate now.

In terms of the 'pretty weird, lots of strange horn and string parts' this is probably someone miss-remembering or allowing their imagination to run away with them.

The fact that the Surf's Up was to be recorded in two parts could be for a number of reasons: possibly the music was of a complexity that suggested that it would be quicker to record it in two parts so that the whole song wouldn't need re-recording if an error was made late in the song. It's convenient that there is a natural break between brother John and Dove nested, which may have convinced Brian to record it in two parts.

The other possibility is that the second part had a different arrangement, that may well have involved strings and horns (though these could easily have been overdubbed later). Maybe the arrangement involved guitars, or flutes, or something, and necessitated a change of personnel? Maybe, like Good Vibrations, Brian wanted to use a different studio for the next part of the song to get a different sound?

It's not too hard to imagine Dove nested etc. played with a similar arrangement to the first part - pianos, basses, perhaps less percussion, so there's a reasonable chance that it was originally not conceived as having a solo piano/voice section at all, but acquired this as a result of Carl not knowing what else to do with it for the album and believing (correctly  :)) that it would sound good with Brian's demo/solo performance grafted on and a big group vocal at the end (and this part being truly among the most transcendent 1.03 mins of the whole BB cannon).

It's good that it worked out this way, as if CiFttM had ever been finished its unlikely that the BVs would have this degree of attention paid to them (at least, on the evidence we have from the demos found on the boots), and its also unlikely that this vocal section would have been used twice on the same album.

It's also worth noting that the chords at the end of SU are not the quite same as the those to CiFttM as apart from being in a different key they follow a four chord progression related to the 'Dove nested' section, whereas in CiFttM it's just a repeated two chord progression. Although, having said that, the first two chords are the same in both instances. It does suggest that Brian envisaged something like the final coda though, given that his CBS performance included that four chord progression.

Whoever's idea it was to add a beefed-up CiFttM vocal arrangement to the end of SU it was a decision of great genius.

It seems like we should all be able to agree that, in talking about backing tracks, "Surf's Up (Movement 1)" as recorded represents the first two verses of the song which will end with the line "Are you sleeping, Brother John?". This is clear from the way the song as written was demoed. Therefore, a "Movement 2" or "Part 2" would be the instrumental backing for the section that begins "Dove nested towers..." Since we don't have session info or recorded evidence (not yet anyway) for this, more than likely this portion of the backing track was not recorded.

Virtually all of the backing tracks for the SMiLE sessions were recorded in modular fashion with verse sections arranged differently than chorus sections, etc. This allowed Brian to have dynamic shifts within the songs as well as the potential to interchange the sections as he saw fit. If "Surf's Up" was being recorded for PET SOUNDS, Brian probably would have cut the entire track at one session; however, given his approach during SMiLE, the first and second (and coda?) sections were planned to be recorded separately. It's seems highly likely that Brian never got around to recording the backing track for the second section. I know this seems unusual, but "Surf's Up" came relatively late in that initial phase of recording when Brian appeared to lose confidence in the project. Apart from "Heroes & Villains", "Vegetables" and "The Elements", all the other backing tracks had been completed (at least once) by the time Brian was cutting "Surf's Up", right? Well, maybe like "The Elements", "Surf's Up" was abandoned. By early 1967, Brian was focused on finishing "Heroes..." as a single (not necessarily as an album track for SMiLE), then he attempted to work again on "Vegetables" as a single before announcing the scraping of SMiLE. If we view the 1967 sessions as being about creating singles, then "Surf's Up" and "The Elements" come at the tail end of the "album" sessions, sessions that were put aside and never resurrected.

The "George Fell Into His Horn" material is clearly experimentation which resulted in a couple of discordant horn riffs that found their way into "Surf's Up (Movement 1)" as overdubs. There is no way this material would work as a backing track to the second section of the song (apart from possibly providing a few more discordant overdubs). The third-hand report on "Surf's Up Part 2" sounds like someone heard this experimental overdub session and thought it was the backing track session for the second section of the song.

Didn't Dom claim at one point that he actually HEARD the pt. 2 studio track? Or...if I recall a little better...he talked to someone who SAID they heard the track (probably erroneously), which then sent him off on a sanctimonious rant that it therefore had to exist?

My guess is that the session was booked but either not used, or if it was used, was something that wasn't completed. I seem to recall words to that effect somewhere.

As I mentioned in the other thread on this topic, Dom stated in his 2005 MAKING OF SMiLE book that a completed version of "Surf's Up" from Jan. '67 resides in the vaults unreleased. I would take the quote regarding a part two with the same grain of salt.

I recall that being on the old Cabin Essence MB. I also recall it didn't end at all well.

Im thinking this or an unlisted "track" after SU proper, like the inner groove of Sgt Pepper or Her Majesty. I used to lean towards the latter, now I lean toward the former. That one musician saying "wait till they hear the next track" on the full length George Fell session on boots (cut out of the TSS version) has sealed the deal for me. I think more of the SMiLE songs would've begun with a quick comedy interlude than most people assume--as vintage 66 Brian says, not separate/extended spoken word tracks but "talking between cuts" and "someone might say something between verses." I don't think these comedic interjections would've broken up the flow between every song but I think let's guess 1-3 tracks a side would've been intro'd, intercut or outro'd with these Psychedelic Sounds bits. Probably anything that didn't immediately intuitively fit with what came before or the most important songs on each side.

So, in a world where The Elements comes out as a single cross-fading song (and kinda abruptly shifts gears of the side it's on) I could see it getting sandwiched between a sentence or two of the Taxi Cabber describing how to get to Chicago (setting up Fire) and a sentence of two of Brian complaining about Smog (bridging Air with whatever might come next). I've written essays in the past about how Veggies and Surf (which had comedy bits recorded at their sessions or about their subject matter) which were likely the closers of both sides, would've had some adjacent comedy. Then Heroes is obvious, plus the Elements as described. It's an extremely speculative theory of mine there might've been an ice cream man skit meant for Look but that's at least half wishful thinking I admit. That was probably about it--that's all the big PS sketches accounted for including the Heroes barfight that never happened (and I suspect was replaced with "You're Under Arrest" & "That was for you punk!").


Lately, there's been some doubt cast on if the second movement even exists. The evidence against it includes: 1) the lost 1/23 session, the biggest mystery we have for this song, was marked for Part 1 not 2. That means unless the session was mislabeled--which did happen at this time and is a real possibility--then Part 2 was never recorded...or never conceptualized at all. 2) the existence of a Part 2 is only implied from the "Part 1" labeling on this tape, which again could've been mislabeled. 3) When Carl and Desper assembled the '71 version, they surely would've used whatever they had and asked Brian for whatever secrets he was holding onto. Since they didn't find or reverse-engineer a part 2 backing track either, we can assume Brian had nothing to share (or was actively sabotaging it by keeping mum but that's unlikely considering he taught them the fade last minute) and 4) the very convincing lyric-analysis I saw from a fellow poster that the song is about foresaking the overly polished pretentious manufactured style of music in favor of something more spontaneous, less produced and capturing a fun vibe from a room of loved ones. The song breaking down from its lush Wrecking Crew wall of sound to the more intimate "just me and a piano" score would reflect that perfectly, as if the song is telling us "forget the bells and whistles, this is what music's all about."

But then at the same time we have to consider the evidence in favor: a) the "half produced, half solo (until the fade)" vibe of SU is very unusual, even for SMiLE, b) Alan Boyd / Mark Linnett have asked about this and Brian didn't deny it's existence plus c) Darian and the BWPS crew asked too and he said "there were some strings" also d) IF YOU BELIEVE HIM, WHICH I DONT Domenic Priore has claimed to have heard it, though he's a known liar so I tend to throw out anything he says that isn't independently verified however e) We do have Talking Horns, where beyond the comedy sketch Brian has the horn players run through some unusual exercises. The laughing sounds were clearly where the horn overdubs for Part 1's instrumentation come from, but then what's the droning horn sound and wailing horn sound for? I think it's at least part of the second movement's score that's been hiding under our noses the entire time. Otherwise why are they there, why were they recorded? "Hurr hurr just Brian stoned and goofing off" some might say, but I don't buy it. I think there was a purpose for everything he recorded at this time, whether he would've stuck with it or not or whether it was a good idea or not is irrelevant.

^So as you can see, there is a compelling and equally evidence based case to make for either side of this issue. I personally lean towards the latter just because of the Talking Horns tape and how well the droning horn part fits from "Dove Nested Towers" to "Broken Man Too Tough to Cry." It's a perfect anxiety-dread inducing undercurrent, mixed low against the vocals and piano, that further illustrates the Speaker's emotional turmoil either as he contemplates the shallow society the rich have trapped us in or the emotional sincerity music has lost (depending on your interpretation of the lyrics). Then the wailing horns part just sounds SO PERFECT over the fade I cant believe that wasn't a vintage Brian idea. It was perhaps the greatest feeling of revelation I've ever had playing around with this material when I discovered that and Im shocked no one else is convinced of its perfection. But I dont care if I stand alone on this--I think we found the missing horn overdubs to SU part 2.

But then that begs the question what else there would've been. Despite how unreliable he usually is, in the absence of any more compelling evidence, I think this is a time when we just have to listen to Brian. Probably there were some sweetening string overdubs to Part 2 not too unlike BWPS. Priore is a liar but it's a case of a broken clock being right twice a day--he deduced from Talking Horns and the canceled string session that the second movement would've had these instruments (and really, it's not like there's that many other instrument groups to choose from) and he was correct. I don't think the Second Movement of SU would've blown anyone away in a vacuum considering how the string overdubs in BWPS are so forgettable and hardly a countermelody, plus no one but me seems particularly jazzed about using Talking Horns. I think this is a case where me as a nobody presenting that assembly is taken as "meh you're full of sh*t and it's not that great anyway" but if Brian had done the same thing in '66 a lot of the people mocking my idea would be calling it brilliant. Ah well.

SMiLE's whole modus operandi was the bisociative/pictorial element to the music--how can you make each of the main instruments evoke other ideas, places, objects in a song? With this in mind, I defend my theory of the SU second movement arrangement thusly: the droning horns would represent the speaker's inner grief, his aching conscience, while the strings would represent rays of light coming down, the heavenly revelation. It makes as much intuitive sense as any other theory at least, arguably more.

Mark Volman says in the boxset essay that Brian played him something from the SU sessions in Dec 66 one day when he wasn't feeling well. It was either an acetate or tape (probably the former) not a live demo. So there's that.

Sad to say I think any acetates that haven't turned up yet are long gone.

Off topic, but since you've been deep diving on so many sources, do you have a sense of where the idea of the elements as cross-faded comes from? If it's an idea that was floated in 66-67, then I feel like it's almost certainly true, because it would be such a weird outlier for how Brian was assembling everything else that it wouldn't have made sense for someone else to make it up. But if it's not attested in the 60s, then I'm inclined to say... what a weird outlier compared to how Brian was assembling everything else. Wouldn't spoken interjections, little linking sections, or hard cuts seem more plausible?


I always assumed that the story was that Brian planned to use strings for part 2, but that he didn't actually arrange or record them. There's a certain elegance, at least in my own mind, to the idea that part 1 would be as we have it, part 2 would have a different blend of instruments, including or perhaps even dominated by a string arrangement (though that certainly wouldn't foreclose other instruments and arrangement ideas, and I think your droning horns idea is totally compelling) and part 3 would have been a dramatic vocal arrangement, as in the 71 version.

I think given how much Brian always cared about Surf's Up, his saying in 2004 that he had planned a string arrangement for part 2 has the ring of truth. But I don't think that at all implies anything was actually arranged or recorded. And I also don't think the BWPS arrangement tells us anything about what a 60s string arrangement on part 2 would actually have sounded like, especially since Brian may not have ever actually known.

And as always, like a broken record, I add my usual refrain that just because Brian didn't do something doesn't mean he couldn't have or didn't know how or was creatively stuck. It may just simply have not happened, and in fact that is what seems to me the most plausible. Although the recording of the piano version in and of itself does suggest that Brian may have had some doubt about how to arrange the song or whether the elaborate arrangement he seems to have been planning was the best way to present the song.

I have always assumed (which of course doesn't make it true) that the idea of using the full arrangement for part one and the piano-vocal version for part 2 was 100% Carl Wilson working with the tapes he had available in 1971 and tells us nothing about Brian's intentions in 1966.

Just AGD relaying what he heard from VDP himself. Secondhand account and AGD has made some mistakes too (WillJC has pointed out some in the Bellagio site, I pointed out one in his book which he admitted was an error) no shade to him, so take it for what it's worth. It is absolutely out of step with the usual SMiLE cuts which is usually the context in which AGD brings it up--to tell people "no crossfades on a historical SMiLE EXCEPT for this one track."

Whether the original conception of Elements cross-faded or not though, it would've been 4 parts and perhaps in addition to my speculation of how the entire track might be bookended by PsychSounds, perhaps if not crossfades the individual elements may've been intercut with jokes (or chants, and thats what the Nov 4 demos were!?) we can only guess of course. I think (Taxi Cabber) Fire (Water Chant w/ additional UC "fish vocalizations") Second Day/Dada with water as the instrument of the melody and flute flourishes (Breathing w/ Smog monolog highlights) Workshop sounds (w/ veggie chants) Vega-Tables (Fight over the fade) would be a damn cool sequence, although it'd have to be the centerpiece of whatever side it's on for better or worse. You might be able to fit Heroes, OMP. Worms & CE before it but my guess is, it'd be a tight squeeze into ~22 minutes.


Yeah, I dont think a vintage string arrangement exists. It used to be the dream that Brian or VDP had answers for all the bare spots in their memories or stashed away in a desk drawer somewhere but I think it's obvious by now they didn't. It's possible straight up writer's block could've been more of a factor than we sometimes like to imagine. (Not saying this is definitely the case and personally it's hard for me to imagine a '66 Brian not knowing how to make ANYTHING sound golden but just throwing it out there as a possibility however remote.) Anyway, if Brian had remembered the melody, we would've gotten it on BWPS.

I agree with you on the strings and it makes sense with the other times Brian cut different parts of songs at different times--there was a totally different arrangement of musicians. Honestly it's as likely as not the January 23 session log was mislabeled and that was the second movement--still doesn't help us because it's lost though.

Also agree BWPS isnt the vintage score, anymore than CIFOTM's lyrics are. Every hole that the 04 album plugged in is noticeably inferior or completely unnecessary ("hot as hell in here or is it me...") and they seemed to play fast and loose with original intents. If Brian remembered Child was about psychology and recursive childhood experiences shaping your life trajectory for the Priore book and his autobiography, why the hell didn't he tell Van to work with that angle in 03? Because he didn't care as much at that point, certainly not about vintage accuracy anyway. It was more about getting it done, about doing what "[his] wife and manager thought would be a good idea." Im not trying to be disparaging or argue there wasn't heart and artistry behind BWPS or that it wasn't good for Brian...but he's not the same guy chasing perfection anymore nor was the project his own idea by his own admission. He's not gonna beat himself up about trying to recall every unrecorded note, every half-remembered backing vocal part, just that they have something good enough to be release-worthy. It's just the way things were with post-Landy, post-Paley Brian and I think to argue otherwise is well-meaning but inaccurate. (Not that you were, just saying). So yeah, just as Brian remembered the main vocal melody for Worms but forgot the bouncier (likely backing) vocal part we hear in TSS, I think he remembered the general idea of a string arrangement but not necessarily what notes the strings would play.

Your aside about how he might've doubted if his complex arrangement was the best idea is totally a valid point--especially considering the possible intent of the song, IE that opulent overly polished rich arrangements (like an opera) arent as meaningful as a simpler, spontaneous "capturing the mood of a room" music like loved ones singing auld lang syne over a fire drinking together in a cellar. I have always said to the skeptics of some of my more "out there" theories, just because this idea isn't the musically best thing you've ever heard doesn't mean it wasn't something Brian was considering--in all likelihood he probably agreed, hence y'know, why the album was shelved. Like, I personally don't think some of my speculative Elements medleys are the best thing ever either but maybe Brian realized that too hence why he abandoned the song entirely. I've done that too with some of my creative endeavors--you get an idea that seems like it's going to be amazing then you try it out and it sucks so you do something else. Brian was undeniably experimenting as he went, hence the multiple versions of certain songs and recordings that almost certainly wouldn't make the album...why is it so hard for some to believe the Nov 4 element chants and Talking Horns exercises weren't part of that same "trial and error" process?

Agreed on Carl's '71 version, which I will say here again for the record I don't personally care for. I don't like his voice for this particular song, I think it works better for Brian. Carl has the best voice in the group but that doesn't mean he was better for every song. Also Carl wasn't above adding additional overdubs and Jack Reilly had the audacity to add a main vocal to the fade which in my opinion completely ruins it. In my ideal version, it's Brian's "aaahs" the rest of the guys' CIFOTM reprise and those wailing horns--none of that busy, preachy "their song is love have you listened as they play/nananananana" stuff that just makes the whole thing too "crowded." Carl didn't know what he was doing on this one, unlike Prayer and CE where either he had a better idea from being around Brian, or the songs were more complete to begin with so what needed to be done was easier to intuit. I know it must feel like Im picking on Carl a little too much but I really think he should've left well enough alone on this, considering his brother didn't want him to touch the song and it's not like he had any real idea of how to finish it anyway. So you break your brother's heart to release a shoddily constructed, frustratingly incomplete, would-be classic. I think this was a major inflection point for the band and not in a good way--it's a "point of no return" if you will, where Brian felt disrespected and Dennis offended on his behalf, so they never gave their all to the band again. (Except arguably LY for Brian, but even then, I've heard he used synths only to get out of the studio as quick as possible and it's only because of his innate talent the album still sounds great anyway.) But now Im veering off topic. The irony is, I prefer the newly rediscovered Wild Honey Era Surf's Up over the half-finished reconstruction we got, so I think if they had to break out the big gun in '71 they should've just released that (maybe with some sweetening overdubs?) and called it a day.