The Smiley Smile Message Board

Instead of using the "Box Set" Thread, lets use this.

I believe that there IS a second movement to Surfs Up, However, it may not have ever been recorded.

Here's the session worksheet for Surf's Up (Part 1):
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7043/surfsup1.jpg)


Notice the "(Movement 1) tag, this proves that a movement 2 EXISTS but MAY NOT HAVE BEEN RECORDED.

Now, most people who have "Heard" it describe it as "Weird" and full of horns and strings. We know of a track with strange horns "George!"
however, it is, in my opinion, to humorous to be part of Surf's Up, or be a song in general.
BUT the horns on george do sound a lot like the "falling apart" horns on Surf's Up (The second verse).

So, what do you guys think?

oh wow that's the best part of surf's up
now i suddenly care about a part 2

Lol, who knows?
Maybe george was just a warm up for surfs up?

everyone talks about that piece but i've never heard it!

Well, there's no doubt that there's a second movement. Brian wrote the melody, Parks wrote the lyrics, and it was demoed. The question is whether or not Brian figured out what he was going to do with it, and recorded it. As for the former, I honestly find it difficult to believe that at the height of his creative peak, Brian would have figured out the first movement and not the second. I'm sure he had a pretty good idea how it was going to sound. It seems to me that he frequently knew how his track was going to end up sounding, what the feel was going to be, etc. As for it being recorded, it looks unlikely. Maybe what he had planned seemed so epic that it just never came to fruition. It just seems so strange, though, that he wouldn't have recorded it as it was clearly a song he was proud of and invested in.

Exactly, Brian LOVED Surf's Up, and it was the ONLY SMiLE song the public heard back in 67', so WHY would he NOT record it?

That's what i'm hoping we find out with TSS, or maybe, even a release!?!

Because after hearing himself sing it on TV he thought he sounded like a "fairy" and didn't want it to come out anymore.

A very reasonable question.

That being said, most of us are still confounded why Brian would not finish up work on what was at that point his most advanced music. Even that didn't seem to be TOO far from completion.

Again, though, another point in your favor. I can sort of see why he never quite managed to figure out Heroes and Villains during the Smile period. It never seemed to be a complete song. Even at the stage that Brian is playing it for Humble Harv (which happens to be the same day that Brian records the first movement of Surf's Up), it is only really one verse. Surf's Up though seems to be such a complete package. Or (forgive my stream of consciousness)...maybe, on November 4th, Brian and Parks had only written the first part, knowing that a second part would be required and by the time it was written (early December, hypothetically) the vocal sessions were beginning and then the project fell apart.

Thoughts?

He should have recorded it in 1976 with his 15 Big Ones "manly" voice!

I really like this post, comparing the situation of Surf's up to H&V really puts SMiLE into perspective.
Brian knew what he wanted, but he couldn't get it EXACTLY how he wanted, and he is a known perfectionist, so I think that it WAS written and Probably demoed.

I mean, look at H&V part 2, people said "Maybe it exists, maybe not" then we got that released on the GV box.

Now, TSS could give us the "Holy Grail"... lets pray :D

That's what I'd always assumed. As FatherOfTheMan states, it is extremely reminiscent of the "Falling Apart" horns in verse 2 (tho' never heard them called that before).

"George" was recorded on November 7, same day as a Surf's Up session; there was another SU session the following day (this info from www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/gigs66.html).   So it follows – in my mind – that the two must be intimately linked, no matter that they're miles apart in terms of sophistication.

George Fell Into His French Horn WAS a Surf's Up overdub session, recorded the day after the tracking session. I doubt it had anything to do with the second movement of Surf's Up.

Just as a comparison for those who haven't heard it, I cut the two parts out and placed them in one file so you can hear (I don't think it's a rule breaker but feel-free to delete the link if it is)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y7x1lofvxomvikv

It could, however, be a sign of what Brian was thinking about at the time, which could have something to do with the 2nd movement.

Well, I think as far as H&V goes, it was never written as a complete song (at least, as we conventionally think of complete songs) and that's what caused Brian difficulties, particularly when it was chosen as the follow-up single to Good Vibrations, which was currently being a smash. I think the success of GV was a factor. Now the public was really anticipating what was next - the game was on. And at no point in the Smile Sessions from what I've heard so far, does H&V sound ready for a single release nor does it have the kind of hook required to be the kind of hit record that Brian surely wanted before Smile came out. I think that the pressure was enormous for H&V not only because it was to follow up the biggest hit the band ever had, but it could also serve as validation to what Brian had been doing with Smile. Pile on the recording race that was going on at the time and Brian must have felt like anybody feels just before a Tetris game ends and all those blocks seem to be falling faster and there's nothing you can do about it.


Okay, but my sense is that was the title given to the collection of extra H&V pieces that Linnet put together for the box set - it wasn't actually anything that Brian put together during the Smile era.

the slower harpsichord part is "Heroes and Villains Part 2" I think I remember that being proven somewhere...

Source and dates/studio, please ?


1 - proves nothing, other than that someone typed "Surf's Up (Movement 1)" on a Capitol session sheet.

2 - "most people who have heard it"... firstly, that anyone has heard it is third-hand info, and in this instance, those people number exactly 1.

3 - I think... there is no Pt. 2: we'll see in the fullness of time.

No, we didn't - we got "H&V" (sections): if it was really "Pt. 2", that's how it would have been listed.

Why would they write Surf's Up (Movement 1) on a sheet when there's only 1 movement?!

We know there OBVIOUSLY was a 2nd movement planned, that's obvious!

I think the fact that you know of a demo where Brian sings "Dove nested towers" is sufficient.

Part 2 was included as part of the sections, it is added in with the rest of the unused sessions.

Movement 1 = first half. Thus:

Movement 1 - up to the second chorus fade

Movement 2 - "Dove nested towers..." up to "A children's song"

Coda - Brian's falsetto wail.

Q, E and most probably, D.

Said demo was for the entire song, not just the mythical part two - see previous post.

Andrew, is there any chance that the "Dove nested towers..." section is part 2? Considering that the way Surf's Up tracking is presented on the Box Set, that section ends where "Are you sleeping, Brother John" is on the 1971 version. Also, hasn't Brian stated since 2003 that the strings were never recorded for that section of the song?


Later Edit: I see that you answered the The first part of my question, above.

Citation, please: I've checked the booklet and this is what it says: "Remember, what you're listening to are unfinished productions, fragments, demos and tracks. Basically the pieces (especially the "Heroes And Villains" vocal sections) have been assembled in what seems like a listenable sequence". No mention of Part 2... not a BW 1966/67 assembly.

Exactly my premise.

Exactly mine too and nothing that I have written suggests anything else despite your attempts to catch my errors.

Therefore, how does the alleged inclusion of "weird stuff" in pt. 2 fit into this scenario, given the lack of documentation ? Reader's Digest answer - it doesn't, because the alleged tape doesn't exist.

I see where you said just that, but your previous two posts had me unclear too. I've never heard anything else to prove that there was more parts for the song (a different Part 2). :)

Alleged by who? Not me - and I haven't talked about that once, nor have I used to term "pt. 2" to the best of my memory here. Throughout this whole thread, when I talk about the second movement, I am specifically talking only about the part that begins with "Dove nested towers" and ends with "a children's song." Again, it is undoubted that this exists - it was written and demoed. This is exactly what I said and it is exactly true. More over, the statement was merely the beginning of a longer statement. I simply began with that truism and then speculated from there.

Never said t'was alleged by anyone except the guy who told the guy who told Alan.  ;D

Fair enough. In my defense, though, I thought I was making it clear when I said that "there's no doubt that there's a second movement. Brian wrote the melody, Parks wrote the lyrics, and it was demoed." I'm not sure how one could believe I was talking about anything else unless one was making the assumption that I didn't know what I was talking about, and that I operated more on assumptions  than facts.


Me neither.

I'll look for it, but i'm certain I heard that the part after the trombones is known as "Heroes and Villains Part 2"

We can be pretty prone to not seeing the wood for the trees - if you'd posted "there's no doubt that there's a second movement, the "Dove nested towers..." part. Brian wrote the melody, Parks wrote the lyrics, and it was demoed.", why, it'd be nothing but world peace & candy bars.  ;D

 :pAnd considering that the demo was used on the 1971 version proves that out.  :p

Wave an article at me saying that and I'll be a regular little ray of sunshine.  :)

Yeah. Shame.

Is there any possibility that there is some "Dove nested tower" music hidden away all these years?

I suppose not...

Still, WHY DIDN'T HE RECORD IT??? AH! My war wound!

As I stated earlier, Brian has stated in 2003-2004 that he never got around to recording the string section.

To be perfectly honest, I really don't think Brian in 2003-2004 knew either way. I think he was talking as if what he was doing for BWPS was what he was going to do all along in 1966 - in other words, he was going to do the same thing that Carl and the boys did in the early 70s and use his demo except, the difference was that he would add strings to it. And to be honest, I just don't see that in keeping with the aesthetic principles of the other Smile recordings from 1966.

I've often wondered what (if anything) exists in the way of 1966-67 acetates of Surf's Up.  Over the years, various sources have mentioned acetate mixes of instrumental tracks (sometimes with vocals) of H&V, Cab, Wonderful, Barnyard, Sunshine and perhaps a few others, but I can't recall ever hearing about a vintage SU acetate (e.g., of Brian's piano demo, the "SU 1"  instrumental track, etc.).  Anyone?

we've been here before

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,4165.25.html

in a lot more detail

(halfway down p2 et seq)

FFS, that was four years ago - I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday !  ;D

Well said, all things considered it seems likely he had a fair idea plotted out re the 2nd movement. The question that exercises me the most is how did not only Brian but *everyone* in his orbit develop collective amnesia re the 2nd movement in just 3 years? This was THE song of the era, something BW and VDP were really proud of. It would make sense if Carl, Desper and BW got together in '71 and decided they didn't like the '67 idea and went in another direction but it seems no one was even aware  the song was more complete, recorded or not, than the 1st movement track and solo piano version.

I wouldn't expect the 2004 model BW to remember but was music Brian composed for such a huge song already gone forever in '71? I guess it's possible he didn't have an idea how the 2nd movement track would go but that doesn't seem like the '66 model Brian Wilson.

Brian didn't want the song on the album - his sole  last-minute 1971 contribution concerned the tag.

Doesn't the second movement begin with,
"Dove nested towers the hour was strike the street quicksilver moon"?
The first half of the song is completely different from the second half ,hence first and second movements.
Or is that just me?

RE: H&V 'part two', isn't the vocal sequence from the french horn therein on the GV box what was found back to back on a comp reel - that suggesting a possible sequence that needed to be properly mixed together?

Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a Mornay sauce, served in a Provençale manner with shallots and aubergines, garnished with truffle pate, brandy and a fried egg on top and Spam.

No, that was what I had for lunch yesterday. But you're good at this!

The second part is undoubtedly 'Dove nested...' - of course it is, because that's how Brian sang it at the piano when he played it on the CBS/Brnstein show.

Whoever wrote the word 'movement' on the session sheet is responsible for all this speculation. If he'd written '1st part' or '1st section' instead, probably none of us would be having this debate now.

In terms of the 'pretty weird, lots of strange horn and string parts' this is probably someone miss-remembering or allowing their imagination to run away with them.

The fact that the Surf's Up was to be recorded in two parts could be for a number of reasons: possibly the music was of a complexity that suggested that it would be quicker to record it in two parts so that the whole song wouldn't need re-recording if an error was made late in the song. It's convenient that there is a natural break between brother John and Dove nested, which may have convinced Brian to record it in two parts.

The other possibility is that the second part had a different arrangement, that may well have involved strings and horns (though these could easily have been overdubbed later). Maybe the arrangement involved guitars, or flutes, or something, and necessitated a change of personnel? Maybe, like Good Vibrations, Brian wanted to use a different studio for the next part of the song to get a different sound?

It's not too hard to imagine Dove nested etc. played with a similar arrangement to the first part - pianos, basses, perhaps less percussion, so there's a reasonable chance that it was originally not conceived as having a solo piano/voice section at all, but acquired this as a result of Carl not knowing what else to do with it for the album and believing (correctly  :)) that it would sound good with Brian's demo/solo performance grafted on and a big group vocal at the end (and this part being truly among the most transcendent 1.03 mins of the whole BB cannon).

It's good that it worked out this way, as if CiFttM had ever been finished its unlikely that the BVs would have this degree of attention paid to them (at least, on the evidence we have from the demos found on the boots), and its also unlikely that this vocal section would have been used twice on the same album.

It's also worth noting that the chords at the end of SU are not the quite same as the those to CiFttM as apart from being in a different key they follow a four chord progression related to the 'Dove nested' section, whereas in CiFttM it's just a repeated two chord progression. Although, having said that, the first two chords are the same in both instances. It does suggest that Brian envisaged something like the final coda though, given that his CBS performance included that four chord progression.

Whoever's idea it was to add a beefed-up CiFttM vocal arrangement to the end of SU it was a decision of great genius.

It seems like we should all be able to agree that, in talking about backing tracks, "Surf's Up (Movement 1)" as recorded represents the first two verses of the song which will end with the line "Are you sleeping, Brother John?". This is clear from the way the song as written was demoed. Therefore, a "Movement 2" or "Part 2" would be the instrumental backing for the section that begins "Dove nested towers..." Since we don't have session info or recorded evidence (not yet anyway) for this, more than likely this portion of the backing track was not recorded.

Virtually all of the backing tracks for the SMiLE sessions were recorded in modular fashion with verse sections arranged differently than chorus sections, etc. This allowed Brian to have dynamic shifts within the songs as well as the potential to interchange the sections as he saw fit. If "Surf's Up" was being recorded for PET SOUNDS, Brian probably would have cut the entire track at one session; however, given his approach during SMiLE, the first and second (and coda?) sections were planned to be recorded separately. It's seems highly likely that Brian never got around to recording the backing track for the second section. I know this seems unusual, but "Surf's Up" came relatively late in that initial phase of recording when Brian appeared to lose confidence in the project. Apart from "Heroes & Villains", "Vegetables" and "The Elements", all the other backing tracks had been completed (at least once) by the time Brian was cutting "Surf's Up", right? Well, maybe like "The Elements", "Surf's Up" was abandoned. By early 1967, Brian was focused on finishing "Heroes..." as a single (not necessarily as an album track for SMiLE), then he attempted to work again on "Vegetables" as a single before announcing the scraping of SMiLE. If we view the 1967 sessions as being about creating singles, then "Surf's Up" and "The Elements" come at the tail end of the "album" sessions, sessions that were put aside and never resurrected.

The "George Fell Into His Horn" material is clearly experimentation which resulted in a couple of discordant horn riffs that found their way into "Surf's Up (Movement 1)" as overdubs. There is no way this material would work as a backing track to the second section of the song (apart from possibly providing a few more discordant overdubs). The third-hand report on "Surf's Up Part 2" sounds like someone heard this experimental overdub session and thought it was the backing track session for the second section of the song.

Didn't Dom claim at one point that he actually HEARD the pt. 2 studio track? Or...if I recall a little better...he talked to someone who SAID they heard the track (probably erroneously), which then sent him off on a sanctimonious rant that it therefore had to exist?

My guess is that the session was booked but either not used, or if it was used, was something that wasn't completed. I seem to recall words to that effect somewhere.

As I mentioned in the other thread on this topic, Dom stated in his 2005 MAKING OF SMiLE book that a completed version of "Surf's Up" from Jan. '67 resides in the vaults unreleased. I would take the quote regarding a part two with the same grain of salt.

I recall that being on the old Cabin Essence MB. I also recall it didn't end at all well.