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Brian Wilson IDOLIZED Phil Spector and it's something I have to accept and respect because of how much I admire Brian....but the whole notion of it always leaves me flabbergasted; because, in my view, Brian was so much more talented - created beautiful songs that he also SANG - had far clearer and crisper production that Spector's mush of over-produced wall of 'noise' (as far as I'm concerned).
I also loathe Spector for being cruel and bullying to Brian the way Murry was towards him - -  and for the life of me, I just don't see what Brian saw in 'Be My Baby'. Brian wrote 100 songs better than that.
I'll never figure it out. It's like learning that the creator of 'All In The Family' felt he could never live up to the achievements of the people who dreamed up 'Hello Larry'.
And on top of it - there is a book about Spector where he chalks up Brian's admiration for him as: 'when a guy like that looks up to someone else that much, it's probably because he just doesn't really have the chops himself."
(Has Brian ever publically commented on Spector's going to prison for murder?)

I don't know about the CONVICTION, but I think when Spector was still on trial Brian was quoted somewhere as saying something like, "I don't think he did it. They must have got the wrong guy."

Two musical innovators: one a cruel, sociopath and the other a very gentle, loving soul.

I think Brian likes "be my baby" because that song's backing track roaring along with the ronettes' singing is amazing through one working ear.

I think Brian's people stopped journalists asking about Spector after that.

Again, I have no doubt that it was mind-blowing for Brian in the age in which it was released....but - man! - - Brian has written SO many better songs than that!!

I also think part of it is that song inspired Brian to go big with his productions like Spector's.

Exactly - it wasn't so much the song itself (although he obviously liked the melody), but the big arrangement and the way the harmony vocals in the chorus compliment the lead.  It made him think about his productions in a different way.  I can see how, in 1963, Brian would be blown away by that.  Of course, I do agree that within a few short years, Brian had developed into a far greater talent than Spector, but you can't understate the influence Spector had on Brian's sound, or how different his records would have sounded in a world without Spector.

Just to put out a contrary opinion. I love Spector's stuff. And "Be My Baby" is phenomenal. I think they're two greats, though I'd give Brian the edge.

Hasn't Brian called Spector God?

Spector had something with the Wall of Sound concept.  Some songs he did are fantastic in that style.  But he quickly went overboard; I describe most of his work as like trying to listen to a song being played through a window air conditioner. 
Brian was able to take the same concept and produce it in a much cleaner way.  Brian's wall of sound is complex, yet it doesn't fall into a muddy mess.  You can hear everything.

As for that picture above...you have Spector, who looks about 15 years older than Brian (even though he's only about 2.5 years older), all hunched over and evil-looking.  He looks like the kind of New Yorker who survives totally on cigarettes and coffee, and probably couldn't run a quarter mile without keeling over.  Then there's Brian, who despite being a little chubby was still only a few years out from lettering in three sports.  He also has a good foot in height over Spector.  He could squash him like a bug...though he never would do such a thing.

This is an extremely interesting topic and one that I've given some thought.

Do you know for a fact that Spector was cruel and bullying to Brian? Or are you just referring to the way their relationship is portrayed in Wouldn't It be Nice? If that's the case you should probably look for more convincing evidence. As for the quote, there are quite a few examples of him being supportive and kind towards Brian both during the 60s and later on. So I wouldn't take that quote completely at face value. I remember reading somewhere that he got Andy Paley to bring Brian along to a (ultimately unreleased) Celine Dion session in the 90s on Brian's birthday, greeting him warmly and saying how glad he was to see him. I think their relationship is much more complex than the black/white outline of quotes like the above one.

As a massive Spector fan (of his music, that is), I was sad to see the condenscenting remarks on Brian that Spector was quoted for in Mick Brown's fab Spector bio 'Breaking Down the Wall of Sound' - but note that during the interview where those quotes were from he also managed to diss a lot of other legendary musicians. So I don't think it's a case of wanting to throw dirt specifically at Brian, but rather that it's some sort of defense mechanism where Spector resorts to critizice everyone at random in order to talk up and emphasise his own image as a reclusive and rebellious madman producer - it's just like Ronnie Spector has said "when people began calling him 'the Mad Genius', that's what he became." But there's actually also strong evidence that Spector suffers from some sort of bipolar personality / schizophrenia. Supposedly one day he's all smiles, cracking jokes and considerate only to become testy, gloomy and pushy the next day. I think that would account for the often very conflicting Spector qoutes on Brian & his music.

I think SMILE Brian was right on the money in stating that in order to understand Brian's love of the Wall of Sound you really need to imagine the historic context where he encountered Spector's music. The Wall of Sound may sound muddy today in an age where we're all used to crystal clear sound (and stereo to boot) played back on state of the art hi fis, but imagine hearing Be my Baby booming out of a tiny transistor radio back then right after some crude recording made on a shoe-string budget. It must have sounded like otherworldly music, straight from another dimension. In terms of Be my Baby's impact, I think rock critic Dave Marsh put it best, describing Spector's production like building a rock'n'roll cathedral around what little Ronnie Spector's voice had to offer.

Yeah, so the songs sound muddy and it's impossible to distinguish the instruments, string, backing vocals etc. from one another. Well, it was meant to be that way, all for the sake of impact, impact, impact. Songs that jumped out the speakers and hit you like a brick wall. I love the image of Brian having to pull over when first hearing Be my Baby while driving. One other aspect - imagine a 1963 Brian totally ready for expanding the Beach Boys sound, wanting to strike out and become independant, getting the power to stand up to the demands on specific sounds & styles of direction  from Capitol, Murrey, others in the band etc. How could he not look up to Spector then? He broke every rule in the business and took no crap from anyone!  :)

Finally, on a personal level, I don't even like the big hits as much as the lost gems of Spector's catalog that mosly only hardcore fans know. It seems that for every Be my Baby, there's a You Baby, I'll Never Need More than This or He Hit Me (And It Felt Like a Kiss). I urge everyone to check his stuff out to get a better picture of what Brian loved so much - one of his favourite Spector songs, MFQs mindblowing This Could be the Night was even kept unrealeased until the 70s.  :o

Other than that though, I agree with people here - Spector basically was a one-trick pony whereas Brian far surpassed him as the years went on.... But what a trick it was!

They should stick Phil Spector in the same cell as Charles Manson. I bet they could come up with some 'killer' songs!

That sounds like fun to say but in reality it would not hold up. Terry Melcher's biggest complaint about Manson the musician was not a lack of talent but lack of respect for others in being produced [told what to do]. He couldn't take it and showed his prison ethics personality - his hey brother come too close and i'll cut you. Phil Spector used his musicians like rags from what I've read making them do tons of performances for a reason most people understand but would probably not be so demanding of others as to do it. They would clash if it was Phil recording Charlie. Who by the way has been making albums of his own sort all through the years in his cell. He gets a perfect sound for his music - distant tape cassette memories from an old cell with an old man and his old guitar. What would Phil do, press record?

and Manson's songs aren't normal songs, Phil would have to have a secret abstract side to be into Charlie's acid folk or whatever you might want to call it.

although if you Youtube searfch "Im on Fire" by Charles Manson - imagine a wall of sound Spector mono style on that one! A chorus of Manson shaman voices echoing as aural flames agonizing pains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQR7NN-TT_Q

Verily, this is some of the greaetest music ever made by man.  :-[

Although, Phil Spector did work with the Ramones. And he freaked THEM out!

I'm not a fan of these clear cut black and white categorisations. There's shades of grey in everyone.

Brian's songs sounded best when he tried to emulate Spector IMHO.

In the 'Catch A Wave' book - Spector invites Brian to come and play piano on a track and then humiliates him in front of everyone in the studio for supposedly playing piano badly.....then publically dismisses him.

In interviews over the past 15 years where Spector mentions him, he invariably derides Brian's talent and never fails to call him brain-damaged or mentally ill. Given this consistency of opinion, I have no problem imagining Spector bullying Brian back in the 60s.

It may have been the On Tour DVD but Brian talks a little about the Spector session he played on but made no mention of the piano incident. I wonder if he remembers it differently or just took it the wrong way.

I love Phil's music, but he is very mentally ill, and nothing he says should be taken that seriously, IMHO

I'm wondering if Brian will watch that HBO movie coming out with Al Pacino as Phil.

I know Phil's son and his father was/is INCREDIBLY cruel to him.

I don't recall Spector ever "bullying" Brian, rather the story I heard was Spector had Brian sit in on the piano at a Christmas session and try playing a part. And after Brian didn't play it as Spector wanted, Spector used someone else on piano. Has the story been embellished somewhere to suggest Spector insulted or bullied Brian at that date? I got the impression Brian didn't want to play the part in the first place and Spector convinced him to try.

There are multiple photo shoots of Spector's Christmas sessions in the studio...none show Brian. Has anyone seen a shot of Brian at Gold Star with Spector on those dates? If he was there, and photos were shot, it's odd he's not in any of them. Any AFM contracts for the dates in question showing Brian there on the date? Or was it just a rehearsal?

Spector's aura outlived the reality of who he was. I think. Sure we have dozens of stories of his unusual or unstable behavior, but was he that way as a general rule or was it something he played up for effect? It got him in trouble more than once. Also, the Spector in Lennon's Imagine film - is he unbalanced, unstable, or in any way like the Spector "character" we've read about? The session tapes that have leaked from Spector's early 60's sessions - does he sound like a madman barking orders in the studio or does he sound like anyone else producing a record in those cases?

One thing that surprised me was hearing how much Howard Roberts apparently could not stand Spector. Howard said Spector caused a bad injury to Howard's hand after having him play the same part on 12-string acoustic for take after take in a session, and Howard had to get medical treatment for it as a result. That was one thing about Spector - he used studio musicians for every ounce of sweat he could wring out of them. Yet I'd argue the notion of "The Wrecking Crew" began in full with Phil Spector's sessions.

He does, for what Spector was probably looking for - Brian's playing is pretty strange usually.


It just shows that Phil is VERY challenged by Brian and always has been. It's Phil's ego talking when he says "Good Vibrations was AN EDIT RECORD!!!!" It's Phil saying "this kid took my sound somewhere that I could never take it and that bothers me".

Phil has a funny joke fit for Smiley Smilers - "If I had a dollar for every joint Brian Wilson smoked trying to figure out how I got the Be My Baby sound..." ---- well how about we get Spector out on temp release from prison and see if he can cut a good replica to any of Brian's best productions, eh? Let's see if Phil can get the Sloop John B sound.

What's the status of the Spector documentary film? I can't find a way to order the DVD, nor download, etc.

Both men have their own pages in the DSMIV.  So their comments and treatment of one another (and other people as well) over the years is heavily colored by that.   By the way, I too grew up listening to both the Beach Boys and Phil Spector records.   Liked them both.  But as a kid, no one could top the Ronnettes and Be My Baby.  I loved the whole package.  Way before I learned the legends of either Brian or Phil.   It was simply the most exciting sound I'd ever heard at the time.  Brian had other influences besides Phil.  Let us not forget the Four Freshmen.   That blend and clarity that Brian wove into the sound of the Beachboys, could not be done with a wall of sound.  Brian raved about these guys as well.

It is my opinion that Brian had a much wider range of influences than we are commonly aware of. Only recently it seems that people have been talking about Brian's exotica influences on Pet Sounds and post-PS material. Four Freshman seem to have been his main musical nerd obsession in early youth, for deconstructing the harmonies to become the master that he is at arranging harmony vocals, but I think there were many other influences pouring it. Brian's music is very eclectic it actually shows a lot of foreign ideas that go way beyond Rubber Soul. That Beatles album probably helped Brian realize that more artistically appealing music could be made still within the confines of that corporate medium, so he took that concept into Pet Sounds. But the album itself shows more classical influence than Paul McCartney probably had any idea of at the time. Paul is quoted in 1967 speaking of classical composers not being much different from the scene he was in at the time, but it's not really true. If you study Beethoven and the Beatles they're worlds apart in the use of the musical language. But if you study Bach and Brian Wilson the gap gets a lot smaller.

Why is Beethoven the default composer when referencing "classical" music and, furthermore, the apex of composing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HHIb9tcc9c

CAUSE I'M A mentally handicapped person AND DON'T KNOW sh*t ALRIGHT

Spector has always been a jerk to Brian.
Check out the following evidence:

"Tearing Down The Wall of Sound" by Mick Brown, 2008 - p.383
Spector talking: "I make fun of alot of people, like Brian Wilson.  He does interviews, he writes his autobiography about me. It's sad, you know, but I don't know if you can fell sorry for untalented people.  Maybe he's not that talented. I never thought he was that talented to begin with. I'd be more impressed if somebody with a brain idolized me."

"Catch A Wave" by Peter Ames Carlin, 2006 - p. 45
"Spector took perverse pleasure in insulting Brian as often as possible. Spector invited Brian to play piano on a session, then tossed the younger musician out of the studio for what he called his substandard playing."


"Tearing Down The Wall of Sound" by Mick Brown, 2008 - p.181
Author Mick Brown describing how Wilson described Spector to him: "When I met Wilson in 2001 he would describe Spector as 'a very scary person. He was egotistical and self-centered. A very scary kind of talking style. A very scary person.'"

Honestly, I hate Spector, after reading the infamous "Wouldn't it be Nice?" and The REAL STORY "Catch a wave" he seems to have an ego bigger than a tidal wave.

He seems like a genuinely awful person.

I love listening to Bernstein talk about music - Inside Pop is fascinating to watch, even aside from the Brian segment. 

Beethoven and the Beatles have a lot in common.

Both were excellent at sensing what was about to become popular and jumping on pre-bandwagon

Both were excellent at "re-appropriating" other people's ideas and passing it off as their own, (although all composers are guilty of this to a certain degree)

Both sum up a time in history and are synonymous with it

Both did some truly stunning work coupled with a lot of mediocrity

Both are highly overrated

IMO

Mozart and Brian have this in common

Both created music which sounded effortless, and at first listen, very simple, but there are almost bottomless hidden depths

Both worked in a very commercial environment, forced to churn out popular music. They subverted this though by imbuing it with aforementioned hidden depths

Both were made to feel responsible for their families financial well being, and had troubled relationships with their fathers.

Both used humour and feigned innocence as a shield, hiding their intelligence behind a childlike persona

Both changed the way the business related to artists.

I was kind of just asking that as an aside, as a point of criticism. My point was that Beethoven, who seems to be the go-to composer mentioned when alluding to the zenith of composing, wrote pretty simple music, which was often downright dumb. So, actually, yes, he is comparable to the Beatles. I wasn’t calling attention to, or questioning, the Beatles-Beethoven comparison (your points of comparison i think are all valid).

Just the other day someone in some other thread, talking about Wonderful, said something along the lines of Brian (and more specifically, Wonderful) being the closest to a modern day Beethoven. Again, as if Beethoven was the apex of musical composition, to which everything could/should be compared. People who have a passing knowledge of western art music, or even none at all, too often focus on Beethoven-Mozart (as well as Bach, but that is something else altogether) because the Classical era lends itself to comparisons with modern pop music. There is a lot more sophistication in composition and arranging to be found in the Romantic period as well as the early 20th century, but people like a good, memorable melody, as well as all the cliches you hear describing the Classical era--balance, order, easily discernible structure, simple harmony, etc. And, you know, Beethoven was "deaf," so that's sensational, and so the name sticks in the social fabric. 

You mention the romantic era, and modern era as seperate to the classical era.  You are a pedant after my own heart! Classical:- 1750 - 1830!

And I should have clarified Monicker, I agreed with your earlier post, and felt I was adding to it, taking it off on a tangent, like a cheeky line of counterpoint.

Though I must say I think Ghost is also absolutely right in saying Brian has more in common with the masters of yesteryear than his peers. Structure, counterpoint and harmony stand equal alongside the melody, rather than acting as its servants. And maybe he likes old Louie B

After all, Beethoven composed some pretty awe inspiring work, the late quartets are mind blowing. And I can say nothing bad about Abbey Road also

And though I am somewhat  versed in some pretty obscure composers and genres, it is Mozart and Bach I return to most often. There is a very good reason they (Bach especially) are considered the greatest composers. If there could ever be music for the sake of music, just pure maths for the ears, then Bach's your fellow. And Mozart was really just entering his mature period. Forget SMiLE. His death was the greatest loss.

And yes, there was some great romantic composers, but everything after is just a steaming pile of Schoenberg as far as I'm concerned.

But I'm glad there are some others on here who listen to good music, other than the Beach Boys of course.

And as I always say....

If you can't write music in your head, then you have no right writing music.

I like Scriabin a lot.

Favorite Beethoven - string quartet 14 in C# minor, some of piano sonatas.

I am having a bit of a brain fart at the mo' but could someone remind me what Beethoven piece it is that Brian quotes in Cabinessence? I was thinking about this last night and couldn't for the life of me remember.

He was the guy with the colours?

And Ludwig's quartets

14 is beautiful

15 is my favourite, with the lydian mode movement. Takes me back to some sad times, and usually I'm quite clinical and emotionless with music. It's really all about the maths for me.

I'm sure you know this, but I love the fact he used to compose with a piece of balsa wood under his lip which was touching the piano, so he could feel the harmonies via vibrations.

And I'd love to believe the shaking his fist at the thunder story at the moment of his death, but this is highly unlikely as he was in a coma form which he never awakened.

I'm going to shake my fist at mobile (cell) phone users when I die

Just typing here manically, not necessarily addressing anything in particular because i like this area of conversation.

I don’t think it’s pedantic to make a distinction between eras of music that cover 200 years. A lot happened and changed. It’s absurd to lump EVERYTHING that preceded the beginnings of jazz under the “classical” term. 

Brian has a lot more in common with Bach than with Beethoven, but at the same time, the BW/Bach comparison is kind of a stretch. You think, for example, that there’s any semblance of Brian’s style and approach in, say, The Goldberg Variations? Brian didn’t, and i don’t think could ever, compose like that. I love any of Bach’s works for unaccompanied keyboards. Any of his ensemble works i only like when he writes in minor, for example, the harpsichord concertos. Oh, i like the cello suites, too. The Brandenburg Concertos are incredibly boring, i think.   

I like LATE Beethoven. The late quartets and sonatas. His symphonies are musically drab. Don’t understand the fixation with them.

I’ve never been able to get into Mozart with the exception of the Requiem, which i absolutely love. And i’m sure we all know the debate surrounding that. BWPS anyone? Oh, but i like those weird pieces he wrote for glass armonica!

Mozart and Bach is who you continually return to? Man, what about Wagner? Wagner can destroy us all in a second. He is a spiteful musical God in the old testament sense, watch out. And Ravel?? Bartok! CHOPIN?! R. Strauss, Rachmaninoff, Brahms, Mahler, Debussy, Prokofiev, Berlioz, the Czech three! So many other than the stock three of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven!

And come on, “everything after is a steaming pile of Schoenberg”? Hey now! That’s a little dismissive of many years of music, no? Come on, Shostakovich, Stravinksy, Scriabin (yes, he’s the one who had synesthesia), Messiaen? Messiaen was out of his mind. What a beast of a composer with one of the most idiosyncratic compositional voices. You can recognize his music in the first half of a measure. Just his organ works alone kill, but his large scale works, wow, what colors and textures. He’s another one who had synesthesia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZfkUgazCtM  Glorious. And: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUgm1Pp_l9Y  Good Lord.

I’m just having fun here. I am hungry and i need to eat.

But, don’t let anyone tell you otherwise, listen a little closer--Webern is a romantic at heart. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN9qJ4oJdvc  Also, early Schoenberg, pre-Serialism is GOOD stuff! And Berg is the sh*t.

Oh god, and Schnittke, my favorite composer of all time! But guys like Ligeti, Penderecki, Varese, Scelsi, etc. tear my head off and turn it into dust, so i am into music doing that. I hate Elliot Carter and Kurtag for the record.

Gahh! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNKWoo9Fe40  This is one of three pieces i want to listen to right before i die. The other two are Hushabye by the beach boys and Born To Be With You by The Chordettes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efvkzpkBil0

Oh, what about little known guys like Ginastera, Revueltas, Poulenc, and Antheil? There is some gold there. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqn4td5iX98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjfE2pUPKrU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOi_VPZmq3I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFd7parC550  (stunning)

Oh, and Iron Horse-Apples, if it’s all about the math for you, please listen to, if you haven’t already, Moondog aka Louis Hardin, American weirdo composer. He’s amazing. Baroque counterpoint, odd time signatures, heavy use of exotic and homemade percussion, jazz idiom, native american influences. 20th century polyphony at its finest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyA0syj-GOQ

Not really related to anything...I just discovered this recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOn4pJlHHdY  Chopin’s A minor Mazurka ARRANGED FOR VOICES. I had never heard Chopin arranged for voices. Good God.

“If you can't write music in your head, then you have no right writing music.” Haaa! That’s extreme! I like it.

Ghost, have you heard Scriabin’s unfinished Mysterium? Insanity. We should get a whole thing going on other unfinished works, f*** Smile. What about Ives’ Universe Symphony?

Okay, i think i'm done. I am not on drugs.

Oh! What about Nino Rota??! Tell me that at least one person here is obsessed with Nino Rota. He is my God. I want to go back in time and hug him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdoVkd71pjY  He is the master of the universe. Every musically inclined person should bow down to Nino.


P.S.  Does anyone here like The Cardigans?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjnE9aMGBoE

Oh God, how can i forget my lover, my main squeeze, the one and only BERNARD HERRMANN.

And by the way, to bring this thread full circle: Phil Spector was apparently obsessed with Wagner. His wall of sound approach was his attempt at bringing Wagner to the teen pop market.

Yeah but I read it barely captures what Scriabin intended that really for - destroying the world or creating a dimensional shift. Scriabin's music is hypnagogic. He wrote music in trances - his 'black mass' for example.

Well, sh*t.  I just read the rest of the thread and discovered that people not only are talking about Phil Spector being overrated but also think Beethoven and the Beatles were over rated.  *sigh.

You know, one day I hope we get to a world where you dont' get cool points for slamming whoever's on top. 

Beethoven = some of the greatest music of all time

The Beatles = some of the greatest music of all time

Phil Spector = some of the greatest music of all time

... and I'm cool enough to admit it.  Sometimes people eat hamburgers because hamburgers taste pretty damn good. 

Ghost, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBhjGIdL5cM

Not obsessed, but the chiming theme from Il Casanova keeps coming back regularly to haunt me. Nice to hear you mention Messiaen, Revueltas and Nemtin's realization of Scr.'s Mysterium. Very nice actually.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=272127216135161&set=o.34250497240&type=1 (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=272127216135161&set=o.34250497240&type=1)

 :smokin

Best idea I've heard in ages. :=)

Monicker, I shall work my way through that long post, addressing the fact I am very close minded (purposefully)

I somehow manage to be both ill educated and an elitist, no mean feat I assure you.

Don't worry, i know just enough to know that i don't really know anything.

And I don't know enough to not know that I don't know everything.

Seriously though, I will hear this moondog, you've piqued my interest

He sounds like an odd mix of Brian Wilson and Mike Love