The Smiley Smile Message Board

If you have known me for long, you may know that I have certain pet mysteries to the bottom of which I would very much like to get.  So I thought I'd trot them out in case new knowledge has blossomed.  The following are either mysteries to me or things that haven't been explained to my liking.  Many are very esoteric, so forgive me.

1.  What ever happened to CBS engineer Ralph Balantin, who is is credited on Pet Sounds but seems to have avoided any other mention anywhere?

2.  Precisely what sort, make, and model of stringed instrument is it that plays the WIBN intro?

3.  If a full session tape for "That's Not Me" exists (does it?) why wasn't it booted?

4.  What exactly is going on in the guitars on I Know there's an Answer?  Are they special, i.e. abnormal?

5.  I still can't definitively hear that there are two electric basses on GOK after 10 years of obsessive listening to the session.  Are there?

6.  Is the second harpsichord on YSBIM overdubbed after the main session?  If not, why does it sound like it is totally isolated on its track?

7.  Why does there seem to be such a paucity of a photographic record for Beach Boys instrumental tracking sessions?


If you can shed any light on these, I would be eternally grateful. 

The guitar on WIBN at the beginning is called an Etheral I believe.

More specifics? I've never heard that before!

I'm 99% sold on electric mandolin playing that intro after playing it on mandolin and having it match very well. better than any guitars I tried and easier to play.

I think Wrightfan is quoting Brian, who in describing WIBN says something like "check out the ethereal guitars in the intro."

I probably won't rest on the WIBN intro question until film is produced of the session, where Barney or Jerry steps aside and explains to the camera exactly what he's playing.  Ha!

One of these days, I'm hoping some student of Barney's or someone else will turn up who had heard some sort of specific.  Too bad almost everyone on that session is gone now.  :(

I've read a few schools of thought on what instrument plays the WIBN intro.

Carol Kaye claims it was Billy Strange (who's not listed on the AFM sheet) and/or Jerry Cole on 12-string guitar. I don't need to say much about Carol's claims.

I've read others who say it's an electric mandolin or a ukelele played by Barney Kessel.  I've heard the term "Vox Mandoguitar" thrown around. Anyone heard of it?

I recall reading - and recently - that Barney had grafted a balalaika neck onto a guitar/mandolin body. Something like that.

'Course, Brian's also said it was two standard electric guitars played high on the neck.  :)

There's no way that it's Billy Strange.

I'm actually working on a long article about this topic, but yes, there are a few possibilities.  One is that it is just a 12-string guitar.  Another is that it's some sort of electric, very short scale 12-string, like the vox mandoguitar.  Another is that it is actually that mandolin-body+special 12-string neck that is pictured in the Pet Sounds box booklet and elsewhere.

All have their strong points and weak points.  You'll read about those in this forthcoming article.

Lately, I have actually come to suspect that some sort of mandoguitar might be responsible for the guitars on IKTAA, see my question no. 4.  That another big topic...

But it has to be... Carol says so.

We certainly know that Barney had this hybrid instrument, but did he use it on WIBN?

I think Brian saying that certainly has to factor in.  I wonder if he's ever been pressed about that in a musicianly fashion that occasionally draws better answers from him.

What is so frustrating about this question to me is that there must be something "off" about it, because nobody has ever been able to get anywhere near reproducing the sound.  Both Brian's Band and the Beach Boys live band play the notes perfectly, but there's something missing beyond what is normally missing between a studio recording and a live performance.  A certain steely woodiness.  Any cover I've heard never quite gets it right.  I can't get it right.  So what gives?

I wonder if you would be so derisive to this woman in person as you and others often are on this board? 

It's still very much a mystery, but what I can say about the WIBN intro is that after trying it on instruments *close* to what those guys would have been playing - a Telecaster, a Fender electric 12-string, a no-name Rickenbacker-style 12-string, and a mandolin - the mandolin gave the closest sound. I do not have a way to film it right now, but I'd like to eventually post a video of this intro played on mandolin. It is a very smooth and natural fingering, it "flows" very nice, and the higher pitch on that first position area of the mandolin is exactly the range we hear on the intro. I think that photo of Barney Kessel in the PS booklet may have thrown us off a bit in assuming the photo was something it was not.

The Vox Mando-Guitar...there were a handful of these bizarre hybrids back in the 60's. Fender made an electric mandolin which could have been a candidate for the intro, too. Vox had their version, Danelectro had a guitar with extremely high upper frets designed to sound like a guitar-mandolin thingy, Danelectro and their offshoots also had a "Bellzouki" which was basically an electric 12-string which Vinny Bell (he of the electric sitar fame) was associated with. Tommy Tedesco is holding a Bellzouki in a photo with Hal Blaine.

It's basically flying blind, just pure speculation, but I'm betting on electric mandolin, again just taking a shot in the dark and based on trying it out for myself on mandolin.

Given the horrible things she's said about me and my mother on her forum, whilst banning me so that I cannot reply, not to mention accusing me of theft, damn right I would. She's a liar and a fantasist who takes credit for other people's work. Fact. Don't care how old she is.

Given the fact that she has flat-out lied and taken credit for other people's work on many occasions, I'd have no problem doing so either.

Wow. I didn't even know she had her own board! I take back what I said. She's probably just as much of an internet geek as the rest of us & deserves your mighty wrath.

Btw I found your recent post re the end of Good Vibes (Carol only playing maybe 5 or so seconds) to be hilarious. What a blow that would be to her if she read it!  :-D

Anybody care to tackle any of the other pressing matters?  What do you guys think about mandoguitars on IKTAA?

4.  What exactly is going on in the guitars on I Know there's an Answer?  Are they special, i.e. abnormal?

What does this mean? I haven't heard the sessions but I hear two electric guitars and an acoustic. The electric guitars playing remind me of YSBIM & Sloop John Be. Dada had a beautiful insight about YSBIM's guitar melodies sounding like distant ice cream trucks.


5.  I still can't definitively hear that there are two electric basses on GOK after 10 years of obsessive listening to the session.  Are there?

I hear one bass, sounding like two due to the reverb.

There's no acoustic guitar on IKTAA.  There's a banjo.  The two electrics have always sounded a little off to me, wooden--much like the WIBN intro actually.  I have also heard a little of this quality in the session tape from the box set of Sloop where the guitars are just fooling around before the takes.  Perhaps it was simply a characteristic of whatever guitars these people were using to sound a certain way when run through a tube board and echo chamber.  The guitars on IKTAA are, like WIBN, exclusively 12th fret-and-above parts--so it would be conceivable that they be half-scale instruments.  Just speculation, but basically, I just want to know exactly what they were using.


The AFM sheet for GOK lists three bassists, two of which are mentioned by name during the session.  Ray Pohlman and Lyle Ritz.  Carol Kaye is listed and despite her record, she does remember being there and playing along with Ray--but I have trouble hearing it.  As I've mentioned elsewhere, there was a time 10-5 years ago that I would listen to this session for days on end trying to find two distinct pick strikes, like, say, at the end of "Mr. Tambourine Man" when you can finally hear the Dano and the Fender be not quite in synch.

If Carol is doubling Lyle with a more rounded tone, that could account for it.

Remember, back in 2000 on the Bloo, this was the session that kicked it all off between her & I: someone asked what Ray played on "GOK" and she replied "he wasn't on that session". When a few folk politely pointed out that the AFM listed him and Brian refers to him on the box set, thus her memory might be slightly at fault, she blew up. But now, she recalls playing along with him. That means she's changed her mind, and there's only one reason she does that: because it suits. My point - if the AFM sheet says she's there but there's nothing on the tapes to support that, I'd go with your ears.

It's time I revealed the full story.

One day, after a session, Carol tripped on LSD with Brian, Dennis, and Charles Manson. As she was coming up The Wizard began. I am you and you are me, dig. There's only one person in this room, GOD. And that's all of us, dig. Cease to exist, Carol. You are no more. Only the Infinite remains...

Since then, Carol has been unable to fully identify with her body and instead thinks she is all people at all times. She DID play on God Only Knows, because she IS Ray Pohlman et al.

Well, she recalled playing along with him for the box set commentary she did, which predates the blowup.

We face a similar situation on "I'm waiting for the day" where she and Ray are listed but it's not entirely clear if there are two electric basses to me.

I'm thinking out loud: Would there be any point to having two Fender basses on a session doubling the exact same part? Probably not. Yet, as has been pointed out, we can't really hear the normal setup of one electric bass, doubled by a picked 6-string bass, do we really on those sessions? The possibility exists that it simply got mixed out, or a part was played which went unused, but I doubt that since the session tapes would reveal who was there...is there evidence of two electric basses on those session tapes, or can it be heard between takes when they're noodling around?

Apart from wanting to preserve the image of a "band" hard at work in the studio, when reality found session players in that role, I'd say this topic #7 is among the most frustrating and there is no quick answer.

If certain people, family members, estates, collections, collectors, et al would open up their archives and collections, we may have more of a record available. The Smile era alone...Guy Webster, Jasper, various friends and family...we know for a fact so many photos were taken of sessions, gatherings, etc, and all we get is a few of the same groups of photos being cropped and published whenever an "official" product comes out. It's frustrating.

Hal Blaine took hundreds if not thousands of photos during his session work. That archive is perhaps the gold mine.

Yeah, the whole thing is confusing.  We know Ray is working the heavily palm-muted pick sound, since Brian calls out to him about it, and Ray noodles trying to get the bridge pre-riff just right.  But there's not much else.  In the beginning of the session, there is a bass that plays the line down an octave and sounds meatier than the set-up Ray has got going.  So what we might have is Lyle and Carol doubling the fundamental bass line, with Ray at the octave with either another Fender or a Dano.

Why do I want to know these things?  I honestly don't know.

Brian certainly did use lots of wonderful bass combinations over the years, but I can't think of too many exactly like what I've just described.  Pet Sounds alone has so many neat bass things going on, from the triple-bass fatness of the bridge in WIBN to the separate bass parts on That's Not Me or Caroline No, to whatever is happening on GOK, to however he got the god of all bass sounds, the bass line to Sloop.  That's another mystery to me.  How is a bass sound that wonderful even possible?

Something like this is the closest I've seen to a photo of the Beach Boys recording a track with Wrecking Crew people.

(http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/73989286.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA54818B609A54F8341B27E726682337DDAA2279CE20876FC2722)

My ears have always heard the WIBN intro as an intentionally slightly out of tune harp... but that can't be right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofByti7A4uM&feature=related

This is a video I found awhile back called Behind the Sounds. I think it's homemade but it's good stuff. At 4:48, the text mentions a mandolin body with a 12-string neck for Wouldn't It Be Nice. I can't determine if the photos shown actually show the modified instrument. I only see six tuning keys. But the sound is a hollow body sound... acoustic vs. electric sound.

Also, in another thread there was a question about a fellow sitting in a chair in a studio photo.
It was determined to be Larry Levine. There is another photo of him in the video.

We know it's something that could be played by a guitar player, since we know the intro was played by Jerry Cole and Barney Kessel, and we know it is something that can be plugged directly into the console.  The session tape makes it clear that there are two guitar-like instruments.

But see, this is exactly what I mean.  It just sounds strange.  Lots of people have thought it was a harp.  People have thought it was some kind of keyboard.  I've heard people who think it's ukeleles.

Now, have you ever heard any cover, or heard Brian's band, or the Beach Boys band play it and have it sound like anything other than a 12-string guitar?

Hey Josh,

The Columbia engineer is actually Ralph VALENTIN - with a V. 

I believe his full name was Rafael O. Valentin, based on some quick online research... He's credited as engineer on a number of 1960s LPs, sometimes as "Rafael," sometimes as "Raphael," and sometimes as "Ralph."   He was on quite a few of the Columbia studio SMILE sessions, as well, often listed as "R.V." on the track sheets.

Re the WIBN intro, my reckoning is that it must be a custom instrument or at least an instrument which is hard to obtain, otherwise why wouldn't Brian's band (who otherwise have a sound remarkably close to the record) not play the actual instrument live?

Custom instruments never stopped Brian's band. That's why Probyn plays a Tannerin, Nelson played a VW hubcap and a water bottle, and Darian contacted a clown supply joint and had 'em honk all the horns for him over the phone so he could be sure he had a horn in the right key for "You Still Believe In Me."

I could believe that quote attributed to Brian that it was a guitar played high up on the neck. In fact, it sounds awfully like the strings are played right by the tuning pegs (have access to a guitar? Try it.), although I doubt that someone spent the time to tune the strings so that those little segments by the tuning pegs would happen to sound the right notes...

Interesting.  Sort of reminds me of the whole Al Vescovo/Vescozo/Vescoso thing where once the misspelling hit something it was hard to undo.  That explains why googling "Ralph Balantin" always only pointed back to various Pet Sounds credits, which have chronically been mis-naming this poor fellow all this time.

Nice to see you pop out of the woodwork, Alan, thanks.

Not entirely relevant but check this out:  http://jaazz.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/barney-kessel-his-personal-kay-gibson-danelectro-coa-for-sales-on-ebay/ (http://jaazz.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/barney-kessel-his-personal-kay-gibson-danelectro-coa-for-sales-on-ebay/)

Very interesting to see Barney's bass was a 4-string.  Wonder if he just always went with that or eventually got a 6-string Dano.

I will see about tracking down somebody closer to this and figuring out if anybody still knows about the WIBN instrument...

OK, it seems that Dan Kessel, Barney's son, has an email address.

Has anybody here ever contacted him?  I always feel bad contacting people out of the blue about really nerdy things.  Is it worth a try?

http://www.dankessel.com/ (http://www.dankessel.com/)

That picture won't load for me. Could you upload it to Imageshack or something?

I have a question of my own, if I may. Who played bass on Slip On Through?

Does it work if you follow the link:  http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/73989286.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA54818B609A54F8341B27E726682337DDAA2279CE20876FC2722 (http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/73989286.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA54818B609A54F8341B27E726682337DDAA2279CE20876FC2722)

Could be about anybody.  Various Beach Boys played bass on Sunflower, as well as Daryl Dragon.  Some session people were around too, but I don't know that this session is documented.

Is it just me, or is a good amount of the bass sound that you are hearing actually coming from Mike's bass vocal?

Something else to consider regarding the sound of the guitars. They are both plugged into the console direct and pipe through reverb. That reverb is part of the sound. To replicate the sound you need that board and echo chamber.

If you watch the vid and listen at 1:10 you can hear one guitar with a lower tonal quality.... probably the tone control turned down to give it a deeper tone. The riff sounds like the beginning of The Star Spangled Banner... then right after you can hear the higher tone guitar try and replicate the riff but lower on the fret board where you can clearly hear the two strings so it's definitely a 12 string of some type. If the word "modified" is being used to describe the type of guitar... it could be that the type of 12 string used was a new thing at that time and not necessarily a homemade modification, but a new or rare instrument to use, i.e. Bellzouki. If there is a photo of someone holding a Bellzouki, good chance that is one of the 12 strings used.

What do you mean by this?
I had to look up what paucity meant  ???


Are you suggesting there's only released material out there like Stack-O-Tracks and the Pet Sounds Sessions Boxset that contain the tracking sessions? I think there's even less of Beatles instrumental tracking sessions, especially released....Anthology had Within You Without You, Elenor Rigby strings only, parts of I'm Only Sleeping, parts of Benefit of Mr. Kite, etc....most seem to be early vocal session/demo tracks.

That is a great effect, isn't it?  The voice-as-instrument philosophy there.

We know that Tedesco had a Bellzouki so that is certainly a possibility.  One thing that would be interesting to do apart from this would be to see what manufacturers offered 12-string electrics at that time.

That Star-spangled banner lick is also a lingering question--if you listen to the complete session, that is repeatedly played between takes, and I wonder if it references some other song.

The tonal difference is quite marked and very similar, again, to Sloop, where one of the twelve strings is thinner sounding and woodier.  That could simply be a neck vs. bridge pick-up issue, also.

I'm talking about photographic documentation, not audio sessions.

Incidentally, "paucity" comes from the Latin "pauc" root, either the noun paucus, which refers to a small group of something, or the adjective paucus-a-um, just meaning little, a small extent, etc.

It's to bad that he has such a bad reputation, because Mike has made some very overlooked, and essential contributions to songs. Slip on Through is a great example. Another is You're So Good To Me. If you take away his bass vocal in the chorus("You're my baby" etc), it wouldn't sound nearly as good. It's such a simple, understated contribution, but very essential to making the song just right.  ;)

Interesting to see this trailer for a new documentary about Carol in which she is credited as bassist on Good Vibrations...a credit which new evidence suggests is probably not accurate. Although she was definitely one of the bassists on the GV "sessions", she more than likely is only on a few seconds of the fade on the released record, or not at all. She's certainly not on the part she plays in this clip. I wonder how much of this doc. just takes her word, or actually researches the work. With the long list of amazing credits that are solidly hers, its a shame she has to muddy that with a habit of claiming credit for some things that are not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMznvEgOPhU&feature=youtu.be

The tone that the strings make, unless they are highly EQ'd and/or processed (and there's no doubt that we have a ton of reverb on them), I'm gonna step out on a limb and suggest that perhaps we have someone playing a classical guitar (nylon strings) on the WIBN intro.

Said trailer also shows the picture sleeve for The Doors "Light My Fire", a record which she most certainly wasn't on. This is going to be one interesting documentary when it comes out...

Isn't that part just the bridge/pre-chorus slowed down thing that the guitars (or whatever) play?

The full session seems to exist, according to the official Pet Sounds Sessions Box.  Though the excerpt there is short (suspiciously short), you can hear Chuck call take 1, and it was recorded in 15 takes, so you'd assume the rest is available.  It does seem strange that the SOT people would have omitted it from their otherwise exhaustive archive of available PS session material.  Perhaps it was one of the tapes where Brian recorded over the beginning because the tracking session ran too long?


To my ears it sounds very much like the guitar combo on WIBN (Recorded only around a week before), Kessel on a mando guitar or something similar and Glen Campbell on a normal 12-string, both treated with a heavy amount of echo.


Yes, because you can hear the click of Brian's talkback mic cut in at the very end of the track the harpsichord is recorded on....just prior to when he calls the end of the take on the basic track.  IMO damning evidence that the harpsichord was overdubbed.


It does seem strange that there are so few photos out there.  You have to wonder if members of the band (and surviving relatives) have some treasure trove of photographic material not cataloged by BRI.  I also wonder if Diane Rovell has ever been asked if she ever took any photos during tracking sessions.

My personal Pet Sounds mystery...what happened to the tracking session tape of "Don't Talk"?  Portions of it were booted long ago as an early take (With a much more prominent organ and a different tympani fill at the end) and edited portions containing Brian's instructions to the musicians.  I guess it was just one of those tapes "borrowed" but never returned.  It's sad that the full stereo backing track was not available for the remix.

OK, here's one of my pet mysteries ... when will Josh finish his excellent Sunflower Blog, on which he last posted 3 and 1/2 years ago, after completing song descriptions for only half of the album.

If anyone can shed any light on when Josh will complete writing descriptive info for the songs on the second half of the album, I would be eternally grateful. 

Check it out at http://recordingsunflower.blogspot.com/

Wonder where the Jasper Dailey prints and negatives are now ? I know where they used to be and what happened... hopefully they're back there now.

Very cool read!

Re: The intro the WIBN (I doubt this'll be helpful but anyway): in "The Making of Pet Sounds" book (inside the PSS-box) there is a section that mentions Barney Kessel accompanied by a photograph. In this he's holding a 12-stringed instrument (a Gibson, judging by the logo on the head) but the neck is shorter than a regular guitar and the body looks more like a bellzouki (and even more like a bouzouki. I've literally spent minutes pondering over what the instrument may be - and how the intro to WIBN was created. No closer to deciphering, unfortunately.

I'm sure it just takes her word, or follows the long-established myth.  The only way anyone knows for sure that she was on any GV sessions is by looking at the AFM contracts, which several people (like Russ Wapensky back in the '90s) have done.  The only way to know with a reasonable degree of accuracy if the sessions she played on were used on the final record is to compare those AFM contracts with the session tape excerpts that have been bootlegged, which a few people here have done.  But the only way to know with 100% certainty which sessions were used on the final record, and for that matter to know what INSTRUMENT she played on those three GV sessions that she attended, is to listen to the complete, unedited session tapes...and not too many people have done that!  :)

The intro to WIBN sounds like the Fender Electric XII played way up high.  I have this model guitar and it sonds very unique, not like the typical ric sound, but yes, more mandolin-like on certain settings.  Maybe i can record myself playing it and see if it comes close!

You should.

I hadn't noticed the talkback cut-in at the end of YSBIM before.  That about ices it for me--but why did Mark insist it was all live when I asked him if that's the case?

So is it safe to assume that nobody here has contacted Dan Kessel before?  The last thing I want to do is bother somebody.

Yes indeed, I posted the same thoughts on page 1:





So to sum it up: We know the Jasper negatives exist, we don't know what or how many photos Hal Blaine may still have but we know he had them in the past...putting it all in context, that is still quite a treasure trove, and I'd seriously like to know who can be contacted to facilitate a release of some kind. What is the reason behind keeping these private? Is it a private collectors' show-off kind of thing? Financial?

Nope. It just says "Access to the web page was denied".

All the speculation about the WIBN intro: To those folks thinking it's a nylon-string guitar, a "custom" 12-string, etc...I'll take a few minutes and tab out the intro for mandolin, then post it up. If possible, try to play it on a mandolin, if you don't own one take a trip to your local music store, printed tab in hand, and try it out on one of their mandolins. It may or may not be a revelation when you hear it in person, but it's worth a try. Again, I'm sold on mandolin or MandoGuitar style instrument until further info is revealed.

As far as the idea of custom instruments, I'd advise not thinking too far beyond the obvious answers in this case. Most of these players played the same kind of instruments in the studio. Some had huge collections of exotic instruments, including Hal, Tommy, Mike Deasy, etc. but for the most part in 1966 at least they stuck to the standards: Primarily Fender, Gibson, and Danelectro for most pop sessions. That's from film and photographic evidence.

The modifications might include swapping pickups, putting a more stable bridge on a Danelectro to replace the poor wooden bridge from the factory, changing little elements of the guitar...but nothing too radical in the way of customizing something into a new instrument.

I have looked at that photo of Barney many times, and at this point I think it was  indeed a Gibson version of a 12-string mandolin, like the Vox Mandoguitar. There were some custom 12-string and 10-string mandolins from Gibson through the years, but they're very rare and hard to find.

The idea of them was to get a mandolin sound while playing familiar guitar tuning. It's basically an upper-register 12-string, nothing too exotic. It's the same idea as those 6-string banjos which are played like a guitar, but you get the banjo sound.

Here's the photo we're focusing on with Barney:
(http://www.larrylevinerecordingengineer.com/documents/barney.jpg)

And here is a great photo of a Vox Mandoguitar to compare:
(http://www.gruhn.com/features/voxmg/EZ4381ang.jpg)

And if you play the intro on a standard mandolin, it works just as well. Fascinating stuff, all of this...

The only problems I have with it being a true mandolin or mandoguitar is the fact that on some of the lower notes the courses are clearly in octaves, some which seem to go below the range of a mandolin.  There's also the brief moment where whoever is playing it tunes an open e-string course (unison this time) which sounds an octave below the open e on a mandolin.

Basically, I'm waiting for someone to tell me it's a good idea to email Dan Kessel...  I need encouragement.

I expect he'd be flattered by the interest in his dad's work

Here is the full-size photo of Barney from the PS booklet, showing more of the instrument. The more common photo got cropped somehow...here's the full deal. Notice the 12 tuning pegs:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/barneymandofull.jpg)

Absolutely go for it.

It's funny, yesterday morning on my way to work, before I'd read this topic, I was contemplating this very subject of how they got that sound/tone on record for WIBN and how it has never really been repeated!

Great discussion so far...would be great to see any audio examples from people trying to recreate the sound.

What a cool lookin' thing.  Regardless of its use or non-use on WIBN, it would be neat to hear the story behind it and know what session that photo is actually from.

One point to consider: Seeing it full-length, you'll notice what appears to be a boom microphone stand with the microphone placed a few inches under Barney's pickguard, near the F-holes where you'd most likely mic up an acoustic mandolin. If that instrument were electric, chances are with 4 tracks in the mid 60's you would either record it acoustic or electric and not both.

In this case, if it has a mic on it, I doubt it is an electric instrument in that photo. Again, just a guess.

That has bothered me too, but Barney could have had a pickup thrown on there, and this session whoever it was just wanted the acoustic sound.  But, was there even any such thing as a mandolin with a pickup in those days?  I mean, I'm sure they existed, but who would have wanted that sound?

They existed going back to the 30's, here is an example of a factory-made 30's Gibson electric mandolin:

(http://www.emando.com/images/builders/Gibson/Gibson_C_Christian_EM150.jpg)

Anything from the Gibson factory would have had a pickup and knobs on the body. An aftermarket pickup in the 60's, like a DeArmond or something, would have a wire or external control plate hanging on the lower body, looking something like this:
(http://www.carvinmuseum.com/images/yearbyyear/1962/62_dearmond-small.jpg)

Very good.

So we're left with three choices, I think.

Standard Electric, Barney's Custom Mandola-thingy, or something else.

Pros for Standard:  Something he would have had for sure, octave courses for sure.  Cons for standard:  Nobody playing standard can quite duplicate the sound.  Out-of-tune sound to the whole thing suggests short-scale instrument.

More later...

One - the instrument in the BK pic has 12 strings, the color shot has 8.

Two - the neck looks longer in the Kessel pic, plus there's some kind of label above the top nut.

I'd say BK's axe is a custom, maybe self-built, job.

I'm almost certain the instrument Barney is holding came from Gibson, whether it was a custom order or an actual Gibson production-line model will hopefully be addressed shortly. It has all the trademarks of a Gibson mandolin style, and no one if maybe a few master luthiers would be able to craft such a neck as that Gibson outside a shop, and if they did they probably wouldn't label it Gibson unless it was from Gibson's factory. Research is underway! :)

I posted the two other photos just for comparison after the question was raised about electric mandolins, and the photo was to show the differences. Nothing related to Barney's, just to clarify all that about electric versus acoustic mandolins. Barney's 12-string instrument looks acoustic, again I'm about 99.8% certain on that point.

I think it's probably beyond question that the instrument we hear at the opening to Pet Sounds is the instrument we see in Kessel's photo. Definitely 12-string, definitely mandolin, probably mic-ed up rather than amplified or DI'ed.
The only other 12-string Gibson Mandolin I can find on the web is pictured about 1/3 of the way down this page:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/printer_1266.shtml
A very different beast: each string has two sympathetic strings, which appears to be standard tuning for 12-string mandolins (which are very uncommon instruments anyway). I'd guess that Kessel's is strung more like a 12-string guitar, with an octave on the lower strings and unison on the upper; at least, that's the way it sounds on the WIBN intro. My guess is that -like the one pictured in the link- the model Barney is playing is a custom job, in the absence of being able to find any further information about such an instrument on the web, though I appreciate that's hardly conclusive.
Aeijtzsche: your point about some notes going below the normal range of a mandolin is a good one, but don't forget, we're talking a 12-string mandolin here. Standard mandolins have only 8-strings. I don't know how the tuning differs on a 12-string, but chances are it can reach lower notes than a trad model. Maybe?
Incidentally, the Vox model was in production for less than 2 years. Admittedly one of those years was 1966 (the other was 1967), but Barney would have had to be quick off the mark to get one in time for the WIBN session. And why would he want one, when he had that gorgeous Gibson model?  

Also, this fellow seems to know what he's talking about...
http://uniqueguitar.blogspot.com/2010/08/to-study-barney-kessels-personal-guitar.html
 Listen to the opening lines of the Beach Boys song, "Woudn't It Be Nice."  The first four bars sound sort of like a calyopy (sic), but it is actually Kessel and another player both on 12 string guitars.  The instrument Kessel played on that track was unusual. It had a mandolin body and a short 12 string neck.

Two things I'm sure of:

1. There is an electric 12-string being played low, but the part in question is definitely not an electric 12-string. I played the part on my Fender 12-string, and to match that high register you're playing high up around the 14th fret, and the high octave double on the G-string in unavoidable, and it's not a pitch heard on the recording. I'm eliminating that possibility for now, it doesn't work on an actual electric 12-string.

2. The part being played on the recording is amplified. An acoustic, mic'ed mandolin or any other acoustic instrument would not project as the instrument projects on the recording.

The possibilities:

1. A Vox Mandoguitar is tuned like a standard 12-string EADGBE, and the strings are grouped in pairs tuned in the same octave, just like a standard mandolin. *That* is key to the discussion, because that is the sound we're hearing on the recording. The instrument Barney is holding appears to have that same setup, however I still think that is an acoustic instrument. A Mandoguitar was basically designed so a guitarist could play normal guitar fingerings with a mandolin sound.

2. An electric mandolin, with 8-strings, would also produce the same sound with easy fingerings.

I have tablatures for the possibilities, and I've tested them out.

I'd like to ask that another possibility be considered: Going back to the beginnings of this research process, let's clear the slate. How do we know the roles of Jerry Cole and Barney were not reversed, and Cole took the high part while Barney played the more static low 12-string part which we know 100% is an electric 12-string guitar?

I say this because on one of Jerry Cole's albums, a Vox guitar is pictured. Barney was a Gibson man, he had his own Gibson model signature guitar, and for electric we know he played a Telecaster. Cole, on the other hand, was releasing a lot of instrumental albums in the 60's and the possibility may be greater that he, not Barney, may have had a Mandoguitar or Fender or something similar to play the part.

How did we arrive at the conclusion of who -played-what in the first place? Was it based on that photo of Barney?

He seems to have based that info on my "Behind The Sounds" video, which was based on the book for The PS Sessions set...which may end up being incorrect.  I did attempt to be ambiguous in my notes at the time but people will run with it.  If guitarfool can verify what exact make and model Kessel has in that photo I can add a note clarifying what exactly he's holding in that photograph.


I'm not sure it's possible to fully verify this, even by close examination of the session tape since both guitars were DI'd.  I think people have just assumed that if a track featured an esoteric guitar part it must have been Kessel playing it.

He seems to have based that info on my "Behind The Sounds" video, which was based on the book for The PS Sessions set...which may end up being incorrect.  I did attempt to be ambiguous in my notes at the time.  If guitarfool can verify what exact make and model Kessel has in that photo I can add a note clarifying what exactly he's holding in that photograph.


I'm not sure it's possible to fully verify this, even by close examination of the session tape since both guitars were DI'd.  I think people have just assumed that if a track featured an esoteric guitar part it must have been Kessel playing it.

Angels with space harps appeared for the intro. It's a Mystery.

I'm currently in the process and waiting for answers on Kessel's Gibson from the photo, and will definitely update as info comes in. At least we may be able to ID that mandolin once and for all, whether or not that can answer the ultimate question about what's on the track.

P.S. Your "Behind The Sounds" videos are stunning, I watch them often and find them very inspiring and even emotional at times when the music blends in with the photos just right. I'm looking forward to more, they're great!

I do hear the high octave on what would be the G-string of a standard tuned guitar.  I hope this doesn't steal any of your thunder, Craig, but here is what I hear with tab.  I would do it in 4/4 if I were serious and make tuplets, but it's too late for that now.

(http://s3.postimage.org/bkf5d2wje/wibn_Introshot.jpg)


I have heard both Barney and Jerry be given credit.  Jerry claims it for himself in Granata's book.

I have always noted that, whoever plays the lower part has some pretty impressive chops; during some of the noodling he rips of some very impressive little jazzy runs that would suggest Barney.  Still, Brian himself said when Barney died that "he did a great job on Wouldn't It Be Nice."  But then, it is Brian speaking.  I think Barney sort of gets the nod based on that photo and others attributing it to him, like Brian.  And to be fair, Bill Pitman and Ray Pohlman are also on the sheet, both of whom could play guitar, but I've always put Pitman on Dano or Jazz Box guitar, and likewise Pohlman.  But it could be Barney on the acoustic guitar and Bill Pitman in the booth-seems unlikely but the session offers few clues.

I think I mentioned this sometime back, but in the premier issue of "Break Away with Brian Wilson" (Summer 1996), which was the BW fan club newsletter, there was an "Ask Brian" corner.  Someone wrote and asked "What is the instrument that starts 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'?".  Brian's reply was "It's two guitars - one played high up on the neck and the other one played regular".  In issue No. 4 (Fall 1997), he wrote little notes to many of the musicians who played on "Pet Sounds".  For Barney Kessel, he wrote "Thank you for your happy guitar on 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'.  It brought a kind of ring-a-ding sound.  It gives people a boost, a real good boost".  Barney was still alive at the time.  Based on this, I would be inclined to credit Barney with the dominate guitar part in the intro...whatever kind of guitar it may have been!

If you look closely at the picture of Barny with the guitar, the body seems to be round. But if you look at the picture of the Mandoguitar, the body dips and then curves...it doesn't seem to be totally round like the instrument Barny is holding. Are there any other models of the Mandoguitar that have a round body?
Don't mind me, I'm just thinking(well, typing lol) out loud.  ;D

Look at page 3, I posted a more full shot of Barney holding what is clearly a Gibson 12-string neck and a Gibson style body for a mandolin, mandola, whatever it may be: I'm still researching that answer. The Mandoguitar photo was just to compare and show what one of them looked like for anyone who hadn't seen one - notice the layout of the pegs and also the configuration of the strings probably matches the instrument Barney is holding, but that's where the similarity ends.

The closest thing to that Vox body shape might be a Fender electric mandolin, they were close to each other in design as a solidbody electric mandolin.

I've seen that! Other articles too where Brian says something similar. I've also heard from several sources that a lot of the pop sessions Barney played at this time were strictly rhythm played on archtop acoustic, where he'd be strumming a style on something like WIBN with a shuffle/swing bounce that could very well be called a "ring a ding sound". That's a great Brian description for a rhythm, isn't it? I also think Tommy Tedesco, where he did play on Pet Sounds, did archtop rhythm more than anything else.

It was either Barney, Tommy, or someone else who called those rhythm parts "easy money" or something similar. ;D Probably Tommy.

Barney on acoustic archtop rhythm could be a possibility, a definite possibility. So you're hearing that high octave on the G string? Could very well be. I took a shot at playing it today in the middle of the discussions and that high octave G sounded out of place to my ears, almost too high pitched for that part. I tried it in the position you tabbed, then the next higher position where all four initial notes can be held as a chord shape - that's tough.

Kudos writing the shuffle in 12/8 - I took an easy jazz way out and wrote "swing" above the 8th notes.  ;)

I was thinking, re: the WIBN intro, could one of the instruments be a Dulcimer or Zither?

OK, here's a wild idea:


What if Barney DID play that Mandola on WIBN but NOT in the intro?  That would explain a lot.  In fact, that photo then, might even be from the WIBN session-some of the very few photos of Brian at a tracking session (the ones where he's in a blazer and the thick glasses) and I always leaned towards that being IJWMFTT, figuring Brian was dressed up for Valentine's day.  But, since those photos are from Gold Star, it could also be WIBN.  Sadly, there's not enough of the studio on view to make any determinations, but if there was a camera there, perhaps it captured Barney as well, who, out on the floor, could be playing those chords that I had previously attributed to a Jazz Box.  If that instrument is tuned at the same octave as a guitar, it's possible.  I really have no idea what that would sound like, though there are some interesting demonstrations of octave mandolins, mandolas, and mandocelli, on youtube.

Now, that would free up Jerry Cole to play the intro as he claims, Brian to be correct in thanking Barney (though wrong about the intro part), and moves Bill Pitman or Ray Pohlman into the booth to play the lower guitar and leaves one of them out there to play Dano.  Heck, based on that ebay auction of Barney's guitars I posted earlier on the thread, Barney could be playing Dano bass himself!

Just one more possibility, there.

Yeah, but I'm inclined to think that Brian specifically mentioning that one song in relation to Barney indicates Barney played a PROMINENT role on it.  The acoustic or arch-top semi-hollowbody rhythm part best heard immediately prior to the "mentally handicapped person" section on "WIBN" doesn't strike me as prominent.  As for Jerry Cole, all Brian wrote was "Thank you for your wonderful guitar playing".    For Billy Strange, he specifically mentioned one song where HIS guitar playing was prominent:  "Sloop John B.".  What he wrote about Ray Pohlman concerned his bass playing, and he didn't mention Bill Pitman at all (elsewhere, in the "Pet Sounds" box set book, Brian DOES mention Pitman, but only in terms of his Dano bass-playing, but he says of Barney Kessel: "Whew, he was dynamite.  Just a really amazing guitar player; that guy was dynamite.  He played the introduction on 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'.  Whew!  Jazz guitar, any kind of guitar you want, he could play!'...sounds like Brian had plenty of exposure to Barney's playing beyond just simple rhythm-playing!).  AND...in regards to what various guitar players have said in interviews about their own playing on Brian's sessions, I read an online Bill Pitman interview a few years back, where he spoke in the same nonchalant terms, downplaying the supposed-complexity of the music and basically saying it was easy money for simple rhythm-playing on his Gibson ES-335 semi-hollowbody and Telecaster (this from someone who played almost all of the great Dano fuzz-bass lines on the "GV" and "SMiLE" sessions!...guess those sessions didn't have much impact on Mr. Pitman's memory!).. Oh, and Barney Kessel plays the main guitar part on LOOK (12-string electric lead).

Do it! The worst that can happen is that you'll be ignored.

So it was Bill Pitman too who made an "easy money" comment about those rhythm gigs? It had to have been Tommy as well, and someone - can't recall which guitarist - said the same thing about Barney Kessel taking those dates where he'd play the archtop acoustic rhythm. I have a great screen shot of Barney doing just that with an old Gibson archtop on the classicstudiosessions blog.

I listened to the sessions last night, and can post specific dates and takes for examples, but there are at least 4 guitars audible, clearly defined, on that session...I'm just clarifying what's already been posted with one correction. Four definites:

1. 12 string electric
2. Acoustic rhythm - it can be heard strumming chords between takes
3. our "mystery" guitar-mandolin-whatever instrument, although I'm now changing my mind a bit and leaning toward a standard 12 string electric after hearing this musician tuning the thing between takes
4. Regular 6 string electric doubling the bass. This part sounds like a Telecaster to me simply doubling the bass, similar to what Don Peake did later on J5's "I Want You Back" with his Tele. Same tone. It's best heard on the arpeggios right near the line "but let's talk about it" just before the drum fill back into the regular groove for the ending.

Is there a Danelectro 6-string bass doubling on top of that? If so point it out and I'll do the same with these because I hear a standard 6-string filling that role clearly on that build-up near the end.

With the audible acoustic rhythm - I'm now thinking Barney was mic'ed up on the studio floor if that was him, and I'm inclined to think that was him for some reason.

Update on that mandolin photo - some early opinions that it was an instrument custom made by Gibson. More to come...

Yeah, I think it was in the '93 Guitar Player article on the BBs where Tommy T. made that comment...said he usually played rhythm on his acoustic or his Tele.  But I still think it's Barney on the main 12-string or mando, probably Pitman on the acoustic.  If there is a Dano, it's Pohlman.

Does the AFM sheet for this session give any clues other than who played bass and who played guitar? I don't think I've ever seen that particular sheet, I'm very curious.

Check this out, from a previous PS stereo/mono reissue package:

1. Wouldn't It Be Nice
Gold Star Recording Studios, Hollywood, CA
January 22, 1966, 7pm to 11:30pm
Engineer: Larry Levine

Drums: Hal Blaine
Bells, Tympani, Percussion: Frank Capp
String Bass: Lyle Ritz
Electric Bass: Carole Kaye
Guitars: Jerry Cole, Bill Pittman
Mandolins: Barney Kessel, Ray Pohlman
Piano: Al de Lory
Organ: Larry Knechtal
Accordions: Carl Fortina, Frank Marocco
Saxophones: Steve Douglas, Plas Johnson, Jay Migliori
Trumpet: Roy Caton


Barney and Ray Pohlman credited with mandolin! Where did this session info come from?

That's from Brad Elliott's liner notes. I guess he is not available for answering questions...

I have a copy of it (and all the other "Pet Sounds" AFMs).  No indication as to what sorts of instruments were played, other than the doubles assigned to Frank Capp ("bells, tympani, percussion").  But interesting to note that on all the other "Pet Sounds" tracks where the same sort of "ringy-ding" guitar is heard ("You Still Believe In Me", "I Know There's An Answer", "Caroline No", "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", "Trombone Dixie"), Barney Kessel is one of the guitarists...in fact, he's the only guitarist who's on all of those titles AND "WIBN".   

He does tend to stay away from open windows...

I think that the info in the liner notes assigning the two mandolins is actually because of Carol Kaye mishearing the accordion triple-bellow shake as Mandolins for her song-by-song commentary.  They took her input very seriously.

As for this:


I believe that this is the Dano bass.  My reason for thinking there's a dano bass on the track at all is based on a very short moment near the end of the session where the player rolls down the open strings, e-b-g-d-a- down to low, bass e.  After I heard that, I wondered what it was doing, and figured that it is the bass that plays the arpeggios.  Then I noticed that the bridge bassline actually really fattens up, so I believe the dano doubles the bassline exactly there, playing exactly what presumably Carol and Lyle are playing.

My guess:  Kessel on high intro & bridge part, Cole on low intro & bridge part, Pitman on acoustic, and Pohlman on Dano bass.  

Seems as good as anything.  Pitman was known as a Dano man, as you mentioned he played on those Smile cuts, but between Ray and Bill, you'd give the bass nod to Ray, wouldn't you?

Another interesting side note--and perhaps it could be instructive and proper to invite Adam Marsland to this thread because he was there, but if you go to:

http://www.myspace.com/shawnbryantmusic (http://www.myspace.com/shawnbryantmusic)

And scroll down you can play "Wouldn't it be Nice" a cover recently recorded featuring Jerry Cole shortly before he died.  Notice the alteration of a note here and there and that once again it doesn't evoke the original.  Which it needn't, but it would be interesting to know if Jerry had any comments, though I suspect I've asked Adam about this before...

This is actually a pretty interesting thing to look at.  Barney was really quite a presence on Pet Sounds.  And it's true, there is a very similar sort of deal of several cuts.  Brian was definitely into a the high sound there, whether these were small-scale instruments or not.  YSBIN has both 12-strings up above the 12th fret, I Know There's an Answer's session tape is not terribly revealing but those guitars could have played the WIBN intro and sounded very similar, even in a different studio.  The one is a little meatier than the other, as well.  Sloop doesn't have Barney but similar idea--high 12-string coupled with lower.

Certainly, Barney appears playing 12-string electric guitar all over PS.  It does make one lean on the idea that it might just be an electric 12.  Nonetheless, the mando-guitar remains a remote possibility and a curiosity per se.  And perhaps with some luck we can track down whant electric 12 Barney favored at that time and somebody can get one, plug it into a UA 610 preamp, slap some old UA compressor on there, send that to an the finest echo chamber ever designed, and see if that's in the ballpark...

I understand the time factor - I'm up against that as well - but if you get a chance and could send me an idea of where on the session tapes I can hear this, I'll check it out. I didn't make it through all of them last night, but when I heard those arpeggios being doubled on those tapes of the bridge, it hit me as a Telecaster sound, and I wouldn't say this if I had not spent a great deal of time transcribing Don Peake's Tele double of Wilton Felder on the Jackson 5 cut a few years ago, and that has nearly the same blend of sounds - especially when you hear it isolated from the track. The notes on WIBN aren't as "tic-toc" sounding as a Dano usually is, but I'm definitely not ruling anything out.

Ok.  Not sure what track it is on the CD, but on it is entitled "(Take 17-20)" by the SOT people, start at about 2:25 in--the take breaks down and you hear the basses and piano go for a bit and then as it's breaking up you hear the acoustic guitar do a slow strum, then in the left channel the "dano" goes down the open strings, although it stops at low A.

We also get a pretty good crack at the acoustic there--definitely not an octave mandolin or something.

Also, and credit must go to Scott here for pointing this out to me, but just listening for a few minutes trying to find that spot:  Why is it so hard for whoever is playing the lick to get it just right?  If this is Barney Kessel playing a guitar, you would think he could: a) get it in tune.  b) get the notes to ring properly.  Even up that high on the neck.  And you know what--it still just sounds weird.  It really does sound like some weird ukelele from space sometimes.  But when whoever it is is just noodling, it doesn't sound quite as odd.

One photo could have saved all this trouble!

Is this a photo from the WIBN session?  If so, why are there so few from it?  It more or less has to be either WIBN or IJWMFTT.  Is that Steve Douglas?  Looks like they're still setting up and learning the parts?

(http://s3.postimage.org/bw5xfxt8a/bw001.jpg)


Also interesting side note part 59:  Carl thought that the intro to WIBN was a harp, at least for the interviews quoted in the Box Set booklet.

it certainly sounds like a mandolin. or two for that matter.

I think Kessel played the mando-guitar in the photo.
he was really a guitarist, which might explain the issues with his playing., and it's possible Brian liked the slightly out-of-sync tuning on the mandolin

Thanks for the track info, and please re-post the photo! Nothing appeared in the actual post.

Just for comparison, I listened to the version played in Michigan '66, and whether it was Al or Carl trying the intro, they played it wrong. I thought hearing a live version close to the source - where Brian would have probably taught them the actual part to play live, would be neat to hear but that didn't happen. Now my obsessiveness will lead me to track down all live versions from 66-67 to compare them to the original.

A few later live versions (90's and beyond) doubled the guitar with keyboard. Didn't like that too much. :)

I wonder if it was an actual harp, but a really old one? Listen to Harpo Marx of The Marx Brothers play. I can occasionally hear that weird echo in the harps that he played that is in the WIBN intro. Yeah, I know....I'm probably way off. It's just an idea.

http://s3.postimage.org/bw5xfxt8a/bw001.jpg

What happens if you cut and paste that?

And there is the photo! Thanks! I agree with the timing of it, obviously Gold Star, Pet Sounds-era to my eyes, and wish there were more like it...

Also notice the headphones lined up in front of the monitor to the right (as Hal wore for WIBN), and a flute and clarinet case on top of the upright piano behind Douglas, if those offer any clues.

@guitarfool... that full picture showing the headstock is great. And yeah it looks like a custom Gibson... if it doesn't have a name it should be called a Gibson 12-string "Ring-a-Ding"... possibly factory ordered.

@aeijtzsche that little star spangled banner thingy... I tried finding a spot for it in WIBN but it doesn't really fit anywhere... maybe it was something they were trying to fit into the sustaining G chord...

@jon stebbins and andrew.... the credit for bass on the doors album went to Ray Manzarek, but I thought Larry Knechtel played bass on some of those tracks. Also, the Good Vibrations line she plays in the trailer... I thought that part was on guitar and palm-muted... then the bass comes in on the walk down. I need to listen again. There is an L.A. Weekly article where the claim she played on Light My Fire is made, too. On the "giving the benefit of the doubt" front, I did a theatre gig where shows were recorded and then used later on cd's given to the band as reference. I found myself asking is that me or the other bassist on a particular recording.  We had to create our own bass lines because we were reading piano charts and I don't remember playing this or that. I guess for her she remembers playing everything.  :P I agree, it needs to be researched.

@ebbandflow your vids are great... hope it was okay to put a link up. Question: where does the info come from regarding the recording of the guitars? That they were recorded in the control room and direct to console. Doesn't mean a mic couldn't be used in the control room, but if the guitar is custom it could have an output, as well.

Don't know as much about The Doors as I did back in the 80s, but all bar one track on The Doors has Ray's Fender Rhodes Bass instead of a real one, and the other one isn't CK. A friend of mine asked her about that several years ago, and according to him she modified her story and said she got confused and that it was the Blue Cheer single version she played on, an excuse which is so full of holes as to be laughable (assuming my friend wasn't pulling my leg, of coruse). Apparently a pukka bass player was later called in to beef up Ray's bass on the QT, but they were male.

As for her presence on the released "GV", my source for that is impeccable. And posts here.  ;D

I lean towards the Brian at Gold Star '66 photos being from the IJWMFTT session, but that's a gut feeling based on absolutely no evidence.  If there were more photos of the musicians you could know for sure.  Is the complete photo set available on a site like Getty or elsewhere?  Even if someone could get a hold of watermarked low-res images it might be possible to figure out which session they were taken at.

Of course!  I just don't want anyone to go away thinking that I claim to be a total expert on these matters...I yield the floor to Josh and the two Craigs when it comes to these things, and it's always fascinating to read their insights.From listening to the session tape for WIBN it's made clear that Hal is wearing headphones in order to hear the guitars to know when to hit the first beat (He even gets pissed at Brian for yelling into the talkback mic!).  I think this is part of what makes the "ringy-ding" guitar sound present on Pet Sounds so unique, but obviously the instrument used is key to that as well.

Real quick so we don't get too off topic for the thread... oops too late... I just listened to the stereo version of Light My Fire and there is a bass in the right channel... the key bass is in the left channel. I have an idea for a time machine that involves collecting light particles from any given time and reconstructing any scene from the past and playing it like a movie. But will it work?

Just listened to Good Vibrations and I still hear that line as guitar... it sounds like a bass where the tape is damaged. The bass comes in on the 2nd half of the verse. That line is bass? I am sleepy so maybe I need to try again tomorrow.

@ebbandflow Ok thanks. Yes... the ringy ding is the thing... I like this board, too.

edit: fixed quote

Ray's piano bass was recorded with the basic track but Larry Knetchel was brought in to overdub bass guitar on several songs. Soul Kitchen, 20th Century Fox, Light My Fire, I Looked at You and a few more have a real bass plus Ray's piano bass. Listen to the I Looked at You intro...that bass sound screams wrecking crew.

(http://i52.tinypic.com/v75k4k.gif)

If it was an actual harp, I think Brian would have said so when he was asked what it was.  Instead, he said "It's two guitars - one played high up on the neck and the other one played regular".  That still leaves open the possibility that at least one of the guitars was a "special" model.  For modern-day Brian, that's a pretty indepth answer.  I'm well aware that he sometimes gives stock one-word answers, but he's oftentimes very informative when it comes to explanations about specific sounds on their records.  I recall a radio interview he did in '88 or so with the late great Timothy White.  Brian made a point of explaining how they got the opening sound on "Do It Again" by putting a very small milisecond delay on the drum. 

On the RELEASED version of "Good Vibrations", the main line played behind Carl's vocal is played on a Fender bass (by Ray Pohlman) up high on the neck.  The second bass line that comes in hafway through the verse is the upright bass, played by Lyle Ritz.  There is no guitar on that part of this version of the song (a later alternate version has Carl playing that main line on his guitar, but none of that was used in the 45 edit).  There WERE two guitar players on the session that produced the track used for the verses in the final version, but they were tacet until the choruses, and those choruses weren't used.     

Yeah, it's very clear from the session tape that it's not a harp--but that so many people think it is (Including Carl Wilson ipse) drives home my point about how strange a sound it is.

I suspect Brian would go into more detail if caught in the right mood and asked in a musicianly way.  I've always thought the best way to interview Brian would be to do it with the interviewer and Brian at two keyboards, and the interviewer should be a decent pianist.  The interviewer could play little riffs--which I think would get Brian talking a bit more.  If a future interview of Brian brought out a 12-string and said to Brian something like: "So the intro to WIBN is quite famous, and rightly so--you always manged to evoke new sounds, so much on this that a lot of people think it was a harp, or keyboards.  Is it true that it's just a regular old guitar played up high, like this?  (interview plays lick here.)"

That Fender bass sound is just classic Ray Pohlman, too.  I've never been able to definitively tell if that great sound he gets is all palm muting or if the built-in Fender mute colors the sound as well--I get pretty close with palm muting.  But just listening to GV then comparing that with IJWMFTT or Here Today, and you can tell it is the same player.  Carol doesn't quite get the same sound, even when she goes for it.  Which she certainly doesn't when she demonstrates the line these days, going for a much smoother sound.

OK, after even more listens thru of the complete session, I'm more convinced than ever that it's just a 12-string guitar.  Hearing the noodling and more than anything, the tuning, sometimes it sounds almost like a strat, twangy even. 

So that leaves a few questions nonetheless, if I'm right.  Why is it hard for the guitarist to get quite right?  It is kind of a tricky lick, but not for BK.  Was Jerry Cole playing it and for some reason having a hard time of it?  Why does it sound so strange up there that people think it's a harp?

Still good questions--It really would be great to know exactly what instrument, even if it's just a type of guitar, that plays the line.  I wish I knew what those guy's go to 12-string electric was in those days.

I also listened late last night (free time... :)) to the full session tapes. I couldn't get a few things out of my mind, and some have already been touched on by others since last night. Here it goes, bear with me:

Contained in this thread there are people posting who are authorities in the areas we are discussing. C-man is the go to guy and the authority on the session info and the AFM contracts from these dates. Who played what, and when it was recorded, and that information can be clarified to the "Nth" degree by C-man. Josh literally wrote the book on the WIBN session, as detailed and as lovingly researched as any info about any Beach Boys session that has ever been done. Ebb and Flow has a fantastic visual and audio resource, well-researched and fact-based, through the "Behind The Sounds" video on the song. Others - musicians, researchers, studio people, people who have recorded similar parts, have added their 2 cents as well.

After all of this, are we any closer to answering the original question, namely who is playing what and what are they playing on that intro? It felt like it all came around in a loop, and the bottom line remains we still think two 12-string electric guitars played that part. We've looked at AFM sheets, listened to every session tape available, and it feels like we're at the starting gate again. Brian said as much, that two 12-string electrics played that part.

I'm almost confident after hearing from folks who I'd consider authorities or at least very knowledgeable with Gibsons and mandolins in general to say that the instrument in the photo was a custom made instrument done by Gibson, and used by Barney to play and read  mandolin parts using familiar guitar shapes. Just like a 6-string banjo - the sound is there, the notes can be read and played in standard tuning, yet it's not an "authentic" banjo to do Scruggs-style rolls and whatnot. Exactly the vibe of a hybrid mandolin like the one Barney is holding. One post I've read suggested Gibson would go out of their way for Barney to fill requests or make something custom for him: At the time Barney was among the elite of jazz guitarists, and he was a Gibson endorser as well as having his own signature model guitar in Gibson's line.

And I'm also 99% confident that the instrument Barney is holding in the photo was not used to play the WIBN intro, above all because it appears to be an acoustic instrument. I think if we were to ask Barney's sons about this, it might confirm information about that particular instrument rather than the actual session.

I'll have more on Barney in a bit.

My thought is this: Can we make an appeal to those who collect, gather, and research BB's photos and vintage artciles and news clippings for anything related to the studio in this time period, anywhere around early 1966 when Pet Sounds was being recorded? Maybe there is a photo somewhere, a lost photo of something from an obscure fan magazine, that could at least clarify some questions, perhaps a photo of Jerry Cole playing a certain model guitar or Barney playing something that would tie it together. Or even something that went "unused" through the various Pet Sounds reissue projects which might shed some light. I'd like to think something exists which hasn't been widely seen that could help.

Does that sound like a possible "next step" to take in this research?

Listen to this segment:

Just before take 17, someone is noodling bebop jazz runs on the 12-string. Someone on the studio floor - right channel - around 12 seconds into the tape says "Hey, hold down the noise in the booth!", and after that - in the left channel, Carol Kaye laughs, then a bit later says something that sounds like "it got quiet in here, but...(trails off)". And one of the 12-string players starts clowning around with the intro, deliberately playing it wrong, which makes the musicians on the floor laugh.

Question: If the two 12-strings were direct into the board ready for a take, and Hal needed headphones to hear them play the intro, how were the players on the studio floor hearing the noodling and playing going on in the booth? Were they wearing headphones as well, or was it as simple an answer as the guys in booth were being heard through the playback monitors in the studio between takes? The only thing you'd normally hear without headphones would be Brian or Levine getting on the talkback, which is why Hal needed the headphones to time his entrance after the guitar intro.

Just wondering...

Bebop runs that sound awfully Kesselesque, eh?

I think it must be a combination of the talkback and Hal maybe pantomiming going deaf or something.  In the beginning, a couple of people on the floor comment about how they can't hear when to come in and Hal says "watch me and you'll know."

Bebop for sure!

There is a quote in the Guitar Player article where Tommy mentions the noise you'd have in the booth when these guys were together. "When we got Billy Strange, Glen Campbell, and Jerry Cole at a session you couldn't hear yourself think. One would be playing loud, and the others would be showing off, trying to outdo each other. It was like World War III..."

It sounds like the WIBN session at times! Noodling and more noodling on the 12 strings. At least the one guy is practicing the actual part. ;D

What caught my ear was their reaction on the studio floor to the 12 string guitars playing that way...they seemed to be hearing that noodling on the studio floor, and without headphones how would they have heard a direct signal? I thought Hal was the only one who could hear them with his 'phones.

And, upon listening again, who was playing that "Star Spangled Banner" based riff? I know I've heard that in a song, but cannot remember the song or artist. Whoever it is at Gold Star plays it over and over again, just riffing it constantly on what seems like every break between takes. That had to get annoying...but maybe it was an "in joke" of some kind? Knowing what that damn riff is from could solve that!

For what it's worth, someone made a comment on my BTS video about a year ago claiming the riff is a combination of the "Star Spangled Banner" and "Darktown Strutters' Ball".

I found your essay here and I am hearing bass now. I think I also had it in my head that when they played the song live, Carl played that line on guitar. Question: was the Fender Bass VI used? It's interesting that Brian says "Fender Bass" instead of just "bass" or "electric bass". The gauge on the extra strings could make the sound more guitar-like. Anything definite on the actual instrument used? Thanks.

The Fender Bass VI was not seemingly very popular among the studio people at that time, although I think Craig "C-man" has speculated that it could be on something...was it Salt Lake City?

"Fender Bass" was, in those days, a reflection of Fender's pre-eminence in making electric basses; like Kneenex or Xerox, the brand was very identified with electric basses at the time.  If a 6-string bass was ever used (and it was, a lot) it would normally be a Danelectro brand.  I've seen photos of a few models in use in the studio in that era, either the two horn or the single cutaway.

In some ways, using the brand names was a way to distinguish between what kind of bass an arranger wanted.  And since the type of bass was so prevalent, in the case of basses, we often know exactly what was used (unlike the guitar situation here, for instance.)

Good Vibrations is just a 4-string, Fender P-bass in my opinion.  Typically the 6-strings were used to add a lot of high end definition to the bass line, but Brian always blurred the lines there.  There is, in my opinion, 6-string Danelectro bass on WIBN, That's Not Me, Possibly Sloop John, quite likely God Only Knows, and plenty of stuff before and after Pet Sounds.

The guys in Brian's band use the Dano for some things that were probably just 4-string, but you never know I guess.

C-man, do chime in here, I've been wanting your opinions about basses on Pet Sounds for years now!

"Fender Bass" was a generic term for electric bass, that's correct. We have photos of Kaye, Pohlman, Jamerson, even Brian Wilson-Glen Campbell-Bruce Johnston playing the Fender Precision Bass - *that* was still the standard, and was the first electric bass Fender sold.

The Jazz Bass was an upstart - one of the few LA players using one regularly on sessions was Joe Osborn. For decades both the P-bass and J-bass go in and out of style with musicians.

The Bass VI was not popular with studio players, although Fender endorsers would have had one. Danelectro owned the tic-toc bass market, although more studio players replaced the wooden bridge with a better one that could intonate better.

Plenty of reasons to think most of Pet Sounds' electric bass sounds came from a Fender P-bass.

I think you might be right about the built-in muting. The bass doesn't open up on Good Vibrations until the chorus and that's where Carl's playing comes in. Listened to IJWMFTT and Here Today and yes, there it is. Here Today is really a great tune and I am guessing that's Ray Pohlman playing the surf slide down, too. And the first thing I noticed in the documentary trailer is that Carol didn't play it the way it sounds on the record.

Notice one element common to almost every guitar shown in the classic Wrecking Crew photos - the lack of a tremolo bridge, the "whammy bar". On most of their sessions they used guitars with a hardtail bridge, unless it specifically called for a tremolo-equipped guitar for surf or whatever. Most photos I've seen are Telecasters and not Strats, Jags, or Jazzmasters.

The Fender Bass VI had a whammy bar bridge. More prone to slipping out of tune during a session. Danelectros had a hardtail bridge. More user-friendly!

It just occured to me that a relative of mine has an old Gibson mandolin. I believe it belonged to my great grandpa. It predates the period we're talking about(1966) by about 40 or so years. Still, I wonder if it would sound anything like the WIBN intro, provided it's played through the right amp/setting(s), etc.

If someone in your family has a Gibson mandolin from the 20's, I wouldn't worry too much about the WIBN intro  :-D...that mandolin could be quite a collectible, very valuable, and highly sought after by players and collectors. If there is a signature in that mandolin by someone named "Lloyd Loar", that mandolin is money in the bank, a family heirloom. No joke. Depending on what exactly it is. Get it appraised and insured, I'm being serious. Six figure value if it's signed by Loar.

If not a Loar, a regular Gibson mando from the 20's is still quite valuable.

I reckoned the Fender bass reference was just that at first until I saw that the possibility of Fender Bass VI. Whammy bars can be removed. It's kind of strange that bass has a whammy in the first place isn't it. Maybe it's possible a lighter gauge string was used on the P bass and played high up. The other thing that had me on the guitar sound is the reverb or echo on the pick sound. It sounds a bit like a rock-a-billy guitar delay. Sharp pick attack echo. Maybe the bass went through a guitar amp with that reverb. Just another thought. Also, were the strings flat wound or round. The J-Bass was around in '65, too. I am pretty sure the Jazz basses were using a maple fretboard and the P bass used rosewood.
Is there any other stuff out there where you can hear the bass called "Fender Bass" other than that one spot?
Also I made reference to a G chord earlier and it's actually an F chord. I was tuned down a whole step when I tried messing with that little guitar riff. Why did Geddy Lee order a Jaco signature fretless P-bass and have frets put back on when Jaco's bass started as a fretted bass whereupon he removed the frets. Strange. 

Do you mean to say that AFM sheets could be wrong?  8)

 ;)

It was appraised once at a five figure sum, but that was several years ago. It's a very secretive item among the family. I've known about it since I was a little kid, and I've never seen it. I haven't even seen a picture of it.

On the contrary, the bass players in LA studios at least felt that heavy strings recorded best.  Carol has said that she played with as heavy strings as she could handle.


Brian almost always wanted a heavy pick sound on his records.  Carol Kaye played exclusively with a pick and Ray et. al usually adapted to Brian's wants.  In those days, what they considered to be a bass amp is now considered a guitar amp:  the Fender Bassman.  Special bass amps, though, were still a thing of the future in some ways.  Ray used a Bassman, Carol a Fender Super Reverb, both 4x10 guitar amps.  And while they certainly could have added reverb at the amp, most everything went through the studio's echo chamber and a lot got sent through tape slap.


Flats.


Yeah, but as guitarfool mentioned, the Jazz just didn't have the cachet in that particular studio culture.  Osborn is really the only guy who played one that I can think of.


Basically any song ever recorded with a P-bass?  It's not some occult thing, to the people in the recording business circa the 1960s, "Fender Bass" is just a synonym for an electric bass guitar.  In the 60s, it just so happened that this most often happened to be a P-bass because of that model's domination, but Carol talks about how even after she switched brands, some older producers would still call it "Fender Bass."

In seriousness, they can be wrong, but most often they aren't, in terms of actual personnel.

Yes, there could be some manipulation, but, seeing as most people like to be payed, it was in everybody's best interest to get those right.

Can someone explain to me, the meaning of /difference in Flat wound or round wound strings?  ( since I don't play) Do they sound different when played? 

Also, how about  playing "High up" ? Does that mean closer to the body of the guitar, or closer to the tuners? Cuz the way I think of it, High up on the neck would be closer to the tuners( but I have the feeling I'm thinking in reverse) 

On this question, we do seem to have made a loop.  I think it truly is unsolvable, at least to the level I'm interested in, which would be to know, for example, that "Barney was the bottom guitar and played a Fender XII, and Jerry Cole was on the main line and played a Vox Mark XII."

I think I'm spoiled from knowing exactitudes like that from a lot of other tracks, where you can hear who's playing a certain guitar, or whatever.  Well, we had a good conversation about it at least.

Flat Wounds and Round Wounds do sound different, hard to describe, and it's a subtle difference.  It's actually a fairly literal description; thick guitar strings have a core that is wrapped in metal, rather than being just a long single wire.  Rounds have a core which is wrapped with a round length of metal, which leaves a textured surface, like if you were to stack a bunch of donuts.  Flats end up smooth because the wrapping is flat.  If take your pick and run it down the length of a string, rounds will make a sound like a guiro, with flats there would be no such sound, it would just be like running your pick on a flat piece of metal.


High up means close to the body, in order to play higher notes.  It's the ability to play ranges of notes that determines the highness or depth when describing the fingerboard, not any spatial direction.

So how are we doing?


We learned that it's actually Ralph Valentin, whom I will have to investigate.  Considering his presence at some historic sessions, it still seems to bad he's never had anything to say about recording the Beach Boys.


We shall never know this to the level of detail I seek, unless a secret photo turns up.


Still uncertain.


No progress, also pretty unknowable.


Still a mystery to me!


We have Mark saying it's not OD-ed but at least I know I'm not the only one who seems to think that's not possible.


Still unknown why the record is so bad for sure--but there's still hope.

Hope is lost on WIBN! At least not yet... ;)

I may have worded it the wrong way, but what I was getting at in that long post was the possibility of turning the page upside down in a way, and looking at the research from a different angle. The resources here are fantastic, and all the avenues we've pursued, centered around the instruments and the studio,  have led the same way. Has there ever been a specific request for photos? We know several collections of photos and collectors of photos - barring any legal issues wouldn't asking for a scan through a collection be a good next step?

Certainly.  I'm not sure where to begin, though. 

I'm thinking 'high' in this instance means closer to the body, not by the top nut. Thus it would sound, er, 'plinkier'.

A few things to add:

1. Oblio: You can remove a whammy bar but the problem would still be there. It's the way the bridge is not fixed down to the body and "floats" with tension from springs that causes the issues. It's been an issue since the 50's on Strats. I've had a Strat since 1989 and I finally had to tighten the bridge down to the body to avoid the tuning issues rather than installing a custom device to fix it or something. Even going to drop D throws the other strings out of tune, and in the worst cases you try to bend a string and the other strings audibly go out of tune, which is bad if you do a lot of pedal steel style bends.

2. Adding to the string discussion from a guitar angle: Flatwounds also have a "warmer" sound and don't produce string noise (squeaks) when you're moving up or down the neck while playing, which can be good for recording based on the situation. I have them on my hollowbody guitar for jazzy stuff and mellow friggin' sounds, and I'd estimate most jazz players you see with hollowbody guitars have flatwound strings on them.

With electric basses, weren't flatwounds pretty much all you'd have on electric basses until Rotosounds caught on in the 60's?

To a guitarist "played high" would usually mean above the 12th fret and "low" would be closer to open position, usually frets 0 to 5. In teaching guitar it can be confusing to beginners because what normally would be going "up" to a beginning player actually looks like "down". Up the neck is sliding from the 1st fret to 8th fret like the bass intro on Lou Reed's "Walk On The Wild Side", sliding down the neck is Dick Dale's intro to Misirlou or Pipeline by the Chantays. ;D

Ha! I just noticed my use of the word  finger picking as in the guitar style must have gotten flagged and was replaced by "friggin"! That's too funny. ;D

Fingerpicking!

It was John Entwistle, from The Who, that brought attention to the round wound string usage in the 60's. Steve Harris, from Iron Maiden, uses flat wound strings and has his own signature string. The rounds have a bite and the flats are smooth. The flat wound strings are used on upright basses, so when electric basses were designed they used flat wound and then the round wounds were developed and have now become the standard.

"High up" refers to the notes. The Low notes are near the tuning keys and the higher notes near the body. guitarfool mentioned Dick Dale and that's what I meant when I said surf slide down with a fast pick... the notes go down... sliding down away from the body toward the tuning keys while picking really really fast. No, I mean really really fast. In "Here Today" you can hear the fast picking slide down, which I believe is the bass, during the "you've got to keep in mind love is here" vocal line.
 

That's true, but if a 6-string bass was used, the extra two strings would have a lighter gauge, anyway. I think these bass parts we are talking about are more like cello or baritone parts.


That explains it. Intregal to the sound.


Intregal, as well.


Yes, but the Wrecking Crew were jazz musicians, but don't tell anybody.  :P


They didn't serve punch on the Fender showroom floor?  :P Understood regarding the synonym. I don't remember ever hearing that before. It's funny to me... it's like saying "can you pour me some of that Lipton Ice Tea... boy that Lipton Ice Tea sure is good..." sounds like a commercial.

Don't give up. We're figuring stuff out.

Edit: Success!

I used to be so intrigued, fascinated, and perplexed by the sound of the intro and wonder what could have been responsible for creating that sound, until i realized that i was even more intrigued, fascinated, and perplexed by the melodic line itself. One of the weirdest melodies in pop music.

To guitarfool: I found a couple of links:
http://theband.hiof.no/articles/fender_bass_vi.html
http://zeus.lunarpages.com/~jimshi2/service/

second link is a 1967 Fender service manual and there is other stuff on the site to look at, as well.

But I was thinking about that Bass VI and it is known as a Baritone instrument. Also, how the music on Pet Sounds is orchestrated and knowing that Brian was interested in raising the bar for popular music. Also, if we go by what the standards were for 1966, then we aren't thinking the way Brian produced. He was inventive and looking for new sounds and new ways to do things. So for now I am going with the Bass VI used as a cello or baritone instrument and the double-bass is the bass in the instrumentation. If I am wrong, I'm wrong, but makes more sense to me as to why there are two basses and still makes sense even with a Fender-P, but we don't have definite info, yet.

Listen to the bass work on Here Today. The double picking. Easier on lighter gauge strings, especially if you don't usually play with a pick. But! I did notice the highest note played is on the 1st string/19th fret on the 4-string.

I did an internet search for Pet Sounds studio session pictures. I didn't find much, but perhaps there might be something in this link I found. I didn't read it to closely, as I'm not nearly as educated in this topic as most people in this thread are.  ;D http://classicstudiosessions.blogspot.com/

I say this friendlily; you're probably wrong about the Fender Bass VI.  The evidence is overwhelmingly against it; we have good documentary and anecdotal evidence that the Danelectro 6-string bass was the six string bass of choice for all the bass players on Pet Sounds, and most of the guitar players too.  If we're talking about six string basses, were talking about Danelectros.

Now, on some of these cuts, are there 6-string basses instead of Fender basses?  I suppose it's possible--we weren't there.  However I think in terms of Occam's Razor here, and to me, there's no compelling reason to think that the bass on Here Today was anything other than Ray Pohman's trusty P-bass.

The last posts raise a topic I wanted to bring up here, related to the Danelectro and Fender Bass VI.

First, this is my own Danelectro "Baritone":

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/danelectro1.jpg)

This model was called the "Hodad", and I got it new just over 10 years ago, looking for that classic "6 string bass" sound we're talking about. This was a modernized take on the classic Danelectro as we see in the Wrecking Crew photos, only this model had upgrades like a bridge with string saddles for good intonation and setups, and other little tweaks like that, pickup combinations and wiring options and whatnot. It was indeed shipped from the factory as a "baritone" setup, with the string gauges set up best for tuning A-to-A or B-to-B, either a 4th or 5th lower than standard guitar E-to-E tuning.

What we think of and assume was the classic Danelectro 6-string bass tuning, E-to-E one octave below standard guitar, was an option you could have by purchasing that particular set of custom-gauge strings. That's what I thought I wanted, but...

The guitar sounds and plays *incredible* set up as a baritone, as it came from the factory. It is simply a beautiful range to play in, and open chords especially have a deep resonance falling in between guitar and bass; it's really unique and adds a lot of texture to recordings.

I'm thinking about the guys using the original model in the 60's: Were they playing the baritone setup, which is how these were set up at Fender and Danelectro as "standard", or did they take those strings off and replace them with the 6-string bass strings? Essentially what you have with the 6-string bass option is a bass with two higher strings...is it worth it for two high strings? The baritone would be more flexible and versatile, but the only drawback is you need to transpose the chords and music by sight when reading the parts. I've done that in the past with chord charts playing my baritone, and it's tough! :)

Adding Barney Kessel into the mix, that auction Josh cited a few pages ago was for a 4-string Danelectro bass, which Barney apparently used to "double" parts in the studio...I found that odd since we always assume that role was played by a Danelectro *six string* and not at standard 4.

Hmmm.... ;)

Everything I've ever looked at indicates an E-E tuning on the Danos, as used by the Crew.  It is an interesting question though--what's the point?

I think there is probably some baritone guitar on Beach Boys records, one thing that comes to mind is the low chords on Salt Lake City.  But it is tricky to conceptualize the Danelectro 6-string bass' role.  Is it a bass?  Is it a guitar?  The standard use was to get the tic-tac sound, of course, which I suspect was just a natural byproduct of how the bass was made.  I mean, when it was designed, it probably wasn't envisioned what it would become.  It was just some novelty idea, I suppose.  But given the short-scale and the body composition, it had a sound that producers discovered was good for some applications.  

To me, the sound of a Dano really is the short scale neck with lighter strings tuned to the lower pitch.  That opening slide-down on I Get Around...you can't get that almost saxophone-like honk any other way.

About Barney's bass, either he retired that one when he got his hands on a 6-string, or used both, because he eventually did have a 6-string:

(http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/74158791.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D069D270604F7421F50F3C680B692416C1F4CFCD939224E6EC)

What puzzles me is that the characteristic "tic tac" sound actually projects *better* on a baritone tuning than the E-to-E. If you're tuned A-to-A on a baritone, you are losing all of 5 low pitches or notes. Is it worth those 5 notes? The lowest string on a baritone is considerably lighter, and the different tension gives it a punchier sound that in my own opinion records better if you want the tic-tac effect. One could, in theory, play a Danelectro 4-string like the one in Barney's auction with a pick, through a Fender guitar amp heavier on the treble, and get that same sound.

It's a shame a lot of the musicians who played tic-tac bass in the 60's are no longer with us, I'd love to talk shop with them about this and ask them these details. I think the true tone of those guitars like the Fender Bass VI and the Danelectro baritone comes out when they're played like a baritone rather than 6-string bass. 

I don't recall seeing this photo before. Would somebody do a quick I.D. please?

I see Kessel third from the left and then is that Tedesco and then next to him Blaine?

Do you have a link for the photo? Nothing came up in your post.

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/74158791.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAssetk=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D069D270604F7421F50F3C680B692416C1F4CFCD939224E6EC (http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/74158791.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAssetk=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D069D270604F7421F50F3C680B692416C1F4CFCD939224E6EC)

Getty seems to work for some people and not for others, wonder why.  If that doesn't work just go to getty images and do a search for wrecking crew with a date range of 1960-1969 and it along with some others will come up.

As for the photo itself, from the left, I believe it is Henry Diltz and Jerry Yester from the Modern Folk Quartet (This was a Spector session of some sort, unknown exactly which cut), then indeed Barney and Tommy Tedesco.  I don't think it is Hal over there, he wasn't really a tympanist anyway.  Looking again, it's Frank Capp.  Don't know who is standing behind him.

Yeah, I think just do the search yourself, linking to Getty is difficult...

Thanks, Josh.

The best way is to use the image link icon to place the photo into the post - just copy the URL of the photo, paste it in between the [img] icons, and everyone can see it unless the website doesn't allow linking.

Unless that's what was done and my browser isn't letting me see it. I feel like it's just me who can't see the photos, I don't understand. :)

Yeah, that's how I do it...  Just do the search--it's worth it.

To Aeijtzsche.... I think you are right that I am wrong. And it's cool. I was thinking of a 6 string bass where you have the Low B and high C but that isn't what's happening here. But I do think the electric bass parts were treated as baritone or cello parts to expand the tonal palette, at least that's where my thinking took me.

I found this vid of Glen Campbell playing the Fender Bass VI... Wichita Lineman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qoymGCDYzU

Nice clip--and interesting you should mention Wichita Lineman, because Campbell actually borrowed Carol Kaye's Danelectro 6-string bass to play the solo on the record, while Carol herself played Electric Bass.

I don't think anyone tuned the danelectro A-A in the '60s; the "baritone" tuning concept is a more modern approach.

And yeh, Carol told me a long time back that she doesn't remember ever seeing a Fender VI bass at any session, and that the Dano was the model.

Re: "tremelo" bridge: honestly, i don't think it was the tuning concern.  The Bass VI was an expensive instrument, something like 4 times more expensive than the cheap Dano.  Ditto a Tele vs. Jaguar, etc.  I think cost and straighforward approach were primary factors for the session guys. Keep in mind, these "youth/rock n roll" sounds were still considered a passing trend; they had their Gibsons for serious work, and their Teles and Danos for the kid stuff.

Re: 12-string standards: I believe most studio guys in the '60s and '70s used either a Fender Electric XII (as used on "sloop john b" for sure; and incidentally a completely different instrument than the strat XII reissues) or a Gibson 335 12 model).

That's not true - there were players (by far not as many) using the baritone setup A-to-A or B-to-B in the 60's but I think the concept started by Danelectro in the 50's was the octave below E-to-E configuration.

What I need to do is play through all the classic Danelectro tracks like "The Lonely Surfer", "Wichita Lineman", and "La Bamba" to see if they *could* be played in A-to-A tuning. Not saying the original players like Pitman used that, but just to compare.

I think it says a lot that Danelectro with the baritone like my Hodad and Fender with their baritones like the "Bajo Sexto" Tele shipped those instruments with the thinner strings for baritone tuning. All in all, it's a better sound.

I think you're probably right, but there's always an outlier or two, just like Joe Osborn and his Jazz Bass or perhaps the small handful of people that had A-A tuned guitars.  Check out Glen Campbell's 12-string Mosrite:  (And yes, there is supposed to be a photo now:)

(http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200803/03/40/f0147840_230660.jpg)

Perhaps this was the 12-string heard of Glen's Pet Sounds tracks?  Who knows?

The Danelectro was the model because it came out in the mid 50's, and just like any trade where you get tips and suggestions from the more seasoned veterans of the trade, you'd most likely gravitate toward whatever tools those people were using.

Tommy Tedesco had said this is exactly what Barney Kessel did for him: Kessel suggested if Tommy wanted to work in the studio, that he get something like a dozen different instruments to have on-call for sessions, and the way Tommy seemed to say that, it was something he never thought of until Barney, who had been doing sessions, gave him the tip. It made Tommy a ton of money, more than if he had his jazz guitars only.

So if a guy like Barney had a Telecaster, a Danelectro 6-string, an archtop for rhythm, a jazz box for single notes, etc, you'd probably equip yourself with the same tools if you wanted to work in that scene.

By the time the Bass VI came out, the Danelectro was firmly established as the go-to instrument for that sound, and I don't think cost played an issue since these musicians could buy an instrument and as union musicians write the instrument off as a business expense on their taxes. I think the tremolo was an issue in not using the Bass VI, although not the main one. If they got years of calls to play a certain sound and the Danelectro was that sound, then why change it, especially to an instrument with a tremolo bar that would be more prone to slipping out of tune after 20 takes?

The Fender 12-string electrics are more stable, easier to intonate, and stay in tune more consistently than Rickenbackers, which have a brilliant sound but are notoriously difficult to keep in tune. The secret weapon for years was the Fender Electric 12, even where folks thought it had to be a Rickenbacker based on the sound.

Joe Osborn and his Jazz Bass...are there many bass tones in rock/pop history more identifiable than Joe's Jazz Bass? A perfect picked bass tone. And apparently Joe never changed his strings, which resulted in them being worn down to where they were smooth. Yet his tone was perfect. One of my favorites. In that case I think the Jazz Bass made him stand out, and for a long time he was never without work from producers and writers looking for *that* sound.

I was trying to find a nice way to say how much I disagree with this statement. ;D

I haven't found one yet so I'll just mention how much I disagree with this statement. ;)

Isn't that what a lot of them thought at the time though?  I don't think Donny thinks Teles and Danos are kid's stuff, but I don't see Bill Pitman doing a dano bass record, you know?  And Barney did sort of reserve his classic Gibson for his jazz records.

fair enough, but i'm reasonably certain most recordings on BB records would be tuned E-E.  there are always exceptions.

true, i forgot about the mosrite.  that's one cool guitar.

I think much of that sentiment was spun out of Tommy Tedesco's comments through the years more than anything else. Tommy was sarcastic, he was funny as hell, he was a jokester, and it's not out of line with that part of Tommy's humor to say things about the records he was making for guys like Brian and Spector. This is the guy, remember, who once got Brian in the studio and asked him "What is surf music?", and that could be taken as humor, sarcasm, and a serious question all at once. The guys who came up with and just after Hal, like Randi, Melvoin, Gordon, Deasy, Osborn, etc. may have been jazzers at heart and played jazz in their free time but the label of kids music wasn't something that group thought of as they were making records like "Bridge Over Troubled Water" or "Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In". Or even Good Vibrations for that matter.

I would say more but I'm tying it into something with video and audio I'll hopefully have posted on the blog in the next day. It centers around Barney Kessel, and sessions he played in the 50's on Danelectro 6-string bass when it was a brand new instrument and music he recorded with Jimmy Bryant, who was the first player to really be in the spotlight with a Telecaster and a jazz-leaning country guitarist whom Barney admired and complimented...and who could play the living hell out of the guitar. :)

It should also be noted that the session guys from the pre-Wrecking Crew days, guys like Barney and Howard Roberts, used Gibsons but would often customize them, cut into and modify them, and sometimes change them radically in cases like Roberts' to the point where the guitar is almost unrecognizable as the Gibson model that came from the factory.

Barney used a Gibson for some things, Fender for others, and Danelectro for others still - it was whatever the song or the date called for with all those guys. They were like tools for an auto mechanic or carpenter or any trade.

To clarify one more issue, I think Tommy's sentiments about the music he was being hired to play may have held up more in the early days of Spector, 62-64, and definitely held up for all those sessions centered around hot rods and car music (and surf music) which could be, in musical standards, pretty basic rock and roll, where you'd have players like Tommy and Bill Pitman riffing over Chuck Berry rhythms.

But all that changed, I'd say it was a pretty radical shift actually, when a musician on the level of Frank Sinatra started working with that same core group of musicians and got others in his Reprise peer group like Dean and Sammy to do the same. Frank was a musician guys like Hal Blaine and Tommy were in awe of and a singer who was respected as a musician's musician, and to have him coming into that scene and in the process scoring several chart hits that crossed over from AC to pop, using that same crew that was playing what Tommy might have termed the kids' stuff...that seemed to be the turning point. After that, a lot of Tommy's jabs and comments have to be taken as humor because it was miles away from kids' music.

When we say jazz in relation to members of the wrecking crew, and how they were "jazz guys" (sorry Carol), what are we talking here, in relation to this time (1960s)? Like a Bill Evans, or a west coast/cool sort of sound? Wes Montogomery rehash? Because the WC guys were certainly not doing Eric Dolphy, Ornette, Coltrane, Archie Shepp, Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor, etc. or even Mingus. Those were different worlds, which makes sense because "jazz" in the 1960s was so divided. I can't even see them doing hard bop. 

The direction this thread has taken here at the very end--talking about attitudes amongst certain circles of musicians--is something that has always fascinated/annoyed me. Jazzbos, especially, can be annoying and exhibit the most condescending attitudes (kid's stuff, disposable [granted, a lot of it was], passing fad, etc.) toward those "below" them, which is funny because then the "classical" people never took the "jazz guys" seriously. It always seemed to me that jazz musicians needed to find something to put below them and belittle because they got no respect from conservatory musicians, being sandwiched between these two worlds, one being the "elite" and the other being those who attained wide recognition, wealth, and celebrity status through "teen" records. Also, while people like Brian Wilson couldn't PLAY like the session musicians, could any of those session guys really WRITE and ARRANGE well? It seems they were just all about showcasing "chops," which is what so much of that world is. Which makes it all the funnier (to me, at least) when they hold that dismissive attitude. The whole musicians vs. composers dichotomy is so weird. And how rare it is to come across those who can do them both.

I am wondering when session musicians from that time started changing their attitude about pop music and going from viewing it as lightweight fluff to something *a little more* serious and substantial. I'm guessing around '67 when pop became more "sophisticated"? Then again, you have contemporary accounts by some of these people like Tommy Tedesco and others who still had a dismissive attitude about the stuff they were getting paid to play on.

 
 

Oh, my last post was written while another response came in, which addresses the very question i was asking at the end.

Right, these guys didn’t typically use Teles and Danos for “serious” music, but “teenager”/rock n roll dates. 

For the record, I prefer the kids’ stuff; I’ve been amassing a collection of Beach Boys-type gear for a few years now.  Ampex 440, ’65 Fender Electric XII,  RMI rock-si-chord, Maestro Rhythm King, old Electro-Voice and Shure mics, bass harmonica, etc.  Had a Dano 6-string bass for awhile and will probably get one again in the future.  And I use NOS 3M/Scotch tape from the ‘60s; I find tape type to be a very important (though often neglected) ingredient to the ‘60s sound.

i'm also not convinced that the attitude about rock/pop sessions was specific to Tommy Tedesco.  These guys had a certain respect for the music (and as it would turn out, for Brian particularly), but they were hired guns and were not playing this rock music because it was their preference.

So, as the owner of a '65 Fender XII, if you plug that right into the board and add copious amounts of reverb, play around with the pickup settings a bit, and play the WIBN part as notated above by me, does it sound anything like the record?

hmm, i didn't think of recording direct.  i can go directly from the board to the mono Ampex 440, and use the same kind of tape PET SOUNDS was cut on (Scotch 203).  I do have a good old spring reverb system with a built in limiter, which emulates an echo chamber about as good as a spring can.

BUT ...

the problem is, i did try out playing it on this guitar and it's so F-ing high on the fretboard, i can't imagine how he would have fit his fingers in there on this guitar.  i'll try to work out maybe a different way to play it and see what it sounds like.   but yeh, the tone of the guitar sounds close to me.   the difficulty with the finger position makes me feel like it may have been something like a the Gibson 335 or mosrite.  you'd have to have a guitar that really allows you to access the higher registers properly.  i don't have a UA desk or preamp unfortunately !

may be a few days before i can get to it; the only sound samples i have online are here --

http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

the tracks "ripple and wind" and "he's gone" have the Fender XII in more of a traditional rhythm guitar role, but you'll kind of be able to hear what i'm talking about -- it doesn't really sound like a traditional 12-string.

oh, PS, i can't see the tab photos that you guys posted for some reason, but i always have played it like this (usually an octave lower, depending on the guitar):

http://www.xguitar.com/guitar-tabs/beach_boys/pet_sounds/wouldnt_it_be_nice.txt

but i was messing around with playing it on just the higher 3 strings, i just haven't had time to transpose it all yet.

Some of these Wrecking Crew musicians went on to have great success, and in some cases win Grammy awards and other accolades, as writers and arrangers. Even more of them became successful producers and worked as musical supervisors on various very successful recordings.

Just a few:

1. Larry Knechtel won a Grammy for his arrangement on Bridge Over Troubled Water among other arranging work
2. Mike Post started as a studio guitarist and later won a Grammy for Classical Gas as well as becoming one of the most successful television composers in America. His music is everywhere.
3. Don Randi was nominated for a Grammy for his original jazz group, besides opening up and running the Baked Potato which is where all the jazzers in LA hung out and jammed for decades.
4. Billy Strange - loads of credits as a producer and arranger
5. Don Peake - composed for TV, film, and arranged for Marvin Gaye and was band leader for Sonny And Cher, arranged a few Mike Nesmith Monkees sessions
6. Mike Melvoin scored dozens of television shows as well as a handful of feature films
7. Lee Hazelwood...'nuff said!
8. Leon Russell - started out playing dates with the Wrecking Crew, got into production with Gary Lewis, the rest is rock history

I could look up more but those were first in my mind. Naturally some musicians are better readers and players than composers, some prefer to play gigs and session dates to producing and writing, and some like Leon Russell and Larry Knechtel took all of their talents to the public at one time or another. But that short list shows that many were just as successful and made their mark as writers and producers as well as session musicians.

And I've heard more than a few of them tip their hat to Brian Wilson who they did admire and take as an influence in their own work.

I think ultimately this was a very *special* group of talented and driven musicians who found their niche, and the timing and locations of the whole scene in LA couldn't have worked out better for all these people to be in the same pool of talent. It is really quite amazing to consider the wealth of talent at that place and time.

Whoa!  That's way higher than necessary.  Hmm...  Try this (There should be a photo below):

(https://mail.google.com/a/mail.gvsu.edu/?ui=2&ik=98c3e24631&view=att&th=131b5869ca6c153f&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=f_gr6sk50s0&zw)

I tried that voicing on my 12-string - it's all but impossible. Try it from the other tab, first finger at the 14th fret position, it's an easier grip. And there is *one* note missing from that tab... ;)

Craig, with due respect, i think your list is a bit of a stretch. I’ll definitely give you Lee Hazelwood. You cited one song for Larry Knetchel, Bridge Over Troubled Water. Did he arrange the whole song or just do the piano arrangement? Either way, it doesn’t particularly strike me as a much of an arranging accomplishment. Mike Post? I know his music is everywhere but ehhhh. I think the key here is that a lot of the stuff with these guys was TV work, which is not to say there wasn’t good TV music, but, well, it was certainly not where you heard the best stuff. To be clear, i wasn’t saying that the studio musicians were totally incapable of composing and arranging, i was just questioning whether they did it really well and produced memorable results. Were they special talents in this area was more of the question. It wasn’t their forte certainly. I recently listened to some stuff from Don Randi and Jerry Cole albums and found it to be rather pedestrian and lightweight. It’s funny that you didn’t even mention the most obvious one--Glen Campbell.

Rockford Files theme is one of my favorite tracks--I'd put it on my desert island mix, I think.

I'm not really sure what the argument here is, anyway.  We're talking about a group of people who excelled at all kinds of different things, and it's up to subjective taste which is more enjoyable.  If Jazz isn't your bag, then it's not.

And don't forget how many of these guys were A&R too, or even some level of executive at record companies.

Incidentally, here's how I play the intro to WIBN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlPwkQuy2bM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlPwkQuy2bM)

The stretch is using your opinions of Don Randi and Jerry Cole solo albums to make a statement like "it wasn't their forte certainly" to describe the rest of the Wrecking Crew's careers in writing and arranging.

Glen Campbell was known as a stage performer and television personality after his session days, but  he was known as a singer like Sinatra or Elvis who performed and sang brilliantly but did not write, arrange, or produce his records. Guys like Al DeLory and Jimmy Webb did that for Glen.

"Bridge Over Troubled Water"...Have you listened to that song recently? The last 2 minutes are the building of the arrangement, strings in both channels, harmonies and counterpoints, soaring string lines and countermelodies alongside Art's vocal, it is a stunning arrangement (opinion). The fact is Larry Knechtel won the Grammy for arranging that song, and they don't give that out to a piano player playing pretty chords under a vocal. The award is for the full arrangement, and Knecthel won it that year.

Mike Post...look him up on AllMusic or Wiki or something, all the facts are there.

"Hill Street Blues" is my desert island tune, and I barely watched the show. :) There's something memorable about that melody.... ;)

Most everything here is opinion, obviously, however...you're saying that (the majority of) the Wrecking Crew members...their forte was, not musicianship, but composing and arranging? I was not basing my statement solely on Don Randi and Jerry Cole solo albums, by the way.

Musicianship includes composing and arranging.  I would say the strength of the Wrecking Crew types is musicianship in general, and then obviously they found their specific niches.  Just like almost any other profession.

I still don't really see what the argument is...The Wrecking Crew is far too large and divers of a body to make sweeping generalizations about, except to say that they all were musicians of the finest caliber.  Many were great arrangers, many could produce.  A few wrote great songs.  Some had a knack for the behind the scenes, A&R stuff.  Some were chops monsters that won jazz polls for best player on some instrument.  That's what makes their story so interesting, I think.  All they had in common was that they all were so good at music that people wanted to pay them money, again and again, to play it and shape it.

Hate to derail the thread, but I remember running across the Wrecking Crew guys displaying insane chops in big band stuff on 50's telly. Any chance someone can help me out, I'm having no luck on youtube....

alright, i figured out the part (still couldn't see the photo, but clicked on the video link, which cleared it up enough for me to figure it out).

sounds pretty close to me.  i'll see about getting a recording together this weekend.

Which parts were played by plucking the strings on a piano?    Seems I recall Tony Asher or VDP talking about doing this along with BW.  I had the idea that some of the unusual string sounds being discussed on this thread were created that way.

The opening of You Still Believe in Me.

Tack pianos create a similar effect, I would say. The only instance in the BB's discography is You Still Believe in Me, though.

It's very cool that a tape of that session revealed how they did "You Still Believe In Me". One guy was actually under the cover of the piano where the strings are, with a mallet that I believe (correct if wrong...) was a dog toy of some kind, and he'd strike the actual strings with that thing. The other guy was at the keyboard holding down the keys of the piano for that melody, and possibly holding down the sustain (loud) pedal on the piano which lifted the felt dampers so you'd get the notes ringing through the cabinet, which gives it that haunting sound. I think they actually used something like a felt marker or pieces of tape to mark the strings that needed to be struck, otherwise you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

A tack piano would have the metal on metal sound, but it wouldn't sustain like the effect they got with the 2-man team of Asher and Brian at that piano.

A wonderful sound, and it was edited onto the beginning of the track.

I have a couple of questions about the "Hang On To Your Ego" session that don't relate to the guitars.  Nerd ramblings follow:

Are there clarinets in the horn section?  The various liner notes consistently list saxophones, Brian refers to them as "horns" during the parts of the session we're privy to, and most of the musicians listed on the AFM sheet were typically sax players.  Seems like a mountain of evidence that they're saxes...but I still hear at least one clarinet with maybe a few saxes playing under that.  Badman's questionable research oddly puts Jay Migliori on "woodwind" (though he also seems to be under the impression that there were two separate tracking sessions for "Ego").

Whatever the exact instrumentation, it sounds close to the lineup Brian used on IJWMFTT a few days later, where saxophones are also listed consistently in the liners.  I can definitely hear saxes in that session so maybe I'm just unlearned in what sounds different ranges of saxophones are capable of.

Also, am I wrong in assuming Hal is moved to tambourine for the later takes?  Conventional drums seem to be absent after the first take.  I assume Wechter is on the tympani, even though the liners for the sessions box put him on the tambourine.

Having most of the session tape unavailable makes the process of identifying "who played what" a headache, and also leaves us in the dark on how Brian changed the arrangement between take 3 and take 12.

Awesome questions! Definitely worth checking out.

One point to maybe clarify: Any professional sax player would "double" on clarinet as a general rule, and many also doubled proficiently on flute. Whether Eb or Bb clarinet, or maybe both, they'd have them on hand and would have to be proficient on the instrument. Most...I use that term cautiously...most big band sax players at least in that era would have to use clarinet at some point during a show, it was just how it was done. Blame Glen Miller. ;D  So a session guy like Migliori or whoever else would definitely have a clarinet. And not unreasonable to assume Brian had one or more of the saxes try out a clarinet for a different tonality during the session(s).

There are only 4 saxophones in regular use for popular music, from high to low in range: soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone. With clarinets there are Bb, Eb, and the beautifully deep bass clarinet. Others are specialties, but all fall under the category of woodwinds. Same with flutes.

I may be wrong and have to listen again, but I thought I heard a bass clarinet on some of Brian's other tracks, can anyone confirm?

I wanted to clarify that "You Still Believe In Me" intro stuff I posted from the previous page...I was wrong, I think they were using a paperclip to pluck the strings of that piano, hopefully someone can clear that up...I don't know why I thought it was a dog toy unless someone made a joke on the session. Sorry about the mistake!

Yes, most of the session sax players were proficient on other reed instruments and flutes, which is why it's hard to 100% lock down what instruments they could be playing.  Though I do think the fact that Brian refers to them as "horns" makes me think that they could all be saxophones.  Would he call a clarinet or a flute a horn?


I know saxes/clarinets/flutes are all in the family of woodwind instruments, but it seems odd Badman would put a bunch of the guys on "saxophone" and then single Migliori out on "woodwind" in the same listing.  But then again, there are so many other things wrong with his research that it's a pretty minor caveat.

There's a bass clarinet on "God Only Knows" (Brian refers to it by name during the session) and Brad Elliot's liner notes put Douglas and Migliori on clarinets for "You Still Believe In Me", which I totally agree with after listening to that session.

Hi Craig...this is the other Craig here...I totally agree with your point that the Wrecking Crew guys & gal were amazing musicians AND sometimes great songwriters/arrangers/producers in their own right, but just to set the record straight (pun intended) on "Bridge Over Troubled Water"...I recall that Paul Simon said (in a Rolling Stone interview, circa 1972, that was reprinted in a big coffee-table book of Rolling Stone interviews) that he put Larry's name down as arranger of "Bridge" b/c of his work transposing Simon's original guitar arrangement to piano (I think he also admitted that Larry threw in a chord or two along the way), but he stated that THAT was the extent of his arrangement work (in fact, in the RS interview Paul comes across as a little bitter that Larry won that grammy, essentially saying that perhaps he didn't really deserve it for what he actually did, and regretting that he even put his name down as arranger).  In the DVD interviews accompanying the recent 30-year anniversary reissue of the "Bridge" album, Art Garfunkel describes how he worked with Larry on the piano arrangement, then describes how it was HIS (Artie's) idea to make the ending of the song big and majestic (like a plane taking off from the runway).  As for the orchestral arrangement on that part of the song, that was the work of Ernie Freeman.  The implication from all this is that Larry's arrangement work on this song was in fact limited to the piano part.  AWESOME piano arrangement & performance, BTW.

I love backstories such as that, and if that was the case with the song I stand corrected! I'm not surprised at those details, but it does certainly change the way I look at the song, which is a cool thing to get the full story.

On a personal note, somewhat related to this: I did study to be an "arranger", when that term still meant the guy who put the pencil to the score paper and handed out the parts to the musicians. :) Some of my teachers/professors were from the old school, and had worked with guys like Henry Mancini and the newer guys would have worked with the composers like Danny Elfman.

It blew my mind a bit when some of them said in a lot of famous cases, the person who got the credit and even awards as the "arranger" for a particular song or soundtrack would have sketched the outline of a melody or a cue then handed it off to either his staff or an orchestrator to finish it out with the elements - horns, strings, etc. - that we would assume was from the arranger himself. It reminded me of the old master painters who did a similar thing on their works: The staff painted the backgrounds and the little details and the famous artist himself did the main subject, like an assembly line.

That's not all the cases, of course, but it did take some of the luster away from the job of "arranger" if all those grand sounds may have come from a room full of staff writers rather than the big name on the credits. Would the award go to the guy who sketched a single line of melody, or the team of anonymous writers who developed it into what we hear? It sounds close to what happened on "Bridge Over Troubled Water" where the piece was finished up by another writer or writers.

Very cool to know, Craig...I think the "arranger" credit on "Bridge Over Troubled Water" should probably go to Paul Simon, Art Garfunkel, Larry Knechtel, and Ernie Freeman.

To Ebbandflow: I hear clarinets and harmonica on "...Ego". One of them could be a bass clarinet, but that lower register part jumps up to the higher register and it's behind the other part in the mix. There is a bit of a buzzy reed going on, too.

I found this vid of a Barney Kessel Gibson that was owned and hand painted by April Lawton. I recommend muting the sound on this vid though. But check out that beautiful instrument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oXIpOQMaUI&feature=related

This copy of a print ad can clarify one of the topics: This is what I believe to be the first ad for the "new" Danelectro six-string bass:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/Vintage_6_String_Bass_Ad.jpg)


If the label was correct, this ad appeared in the Danelectro catalog for 1955, which would make sense because the bass itself was first available in 1956, or at least that is the year I've seen most often cited as the "first" Danelectro six-string bass to hit the stores.

The ad confirms that the original standard factory setup - the design of the instrument as well - was the six strings tuned an octave below. The history is *very* confusing, and in researching this and another topic I found message boards and forums where the discussions got pretty heated over the bass-versus-baritone question, concerning Danelectro and the Fender Bass VI, exactly what this thread touched on earlier.

In the decades since, the length and the scale of the necks has changed a bit from those original Danelectros in '56. It is impossible to tell when the first "baritone" models (A-to-A or B-to-B tuning) came from a factory (with the new scale necks), but the history of that setup seems to have come from the players themselves, where they would be tinkering with the guitar and putting heavy guitar strings on the instrument instead of the factory six-string bass strings. Who or when they did this or when it was first recorded...is anyone's guess. But it dates back to the 60's, according to some accounts.

Whatever or whoever originated and standardized that "baritone" setup, it is now the standard for factory setups of those guitars, and the original six-string setup has become the option. It is important to note again that this is *not* the modern 6-string bass, which is a totally different instrument with a much wider neck and different tuning on the extended strings. 

I believe the scale on all of the originals are 30" (standard short-scale bass).  The reissues vary, as the string tension is more stable with an even shorter scale (28.5"?) for "bartione" (A-A or B-B) with the lighter strings. 

Not to be outdone, Gibson also tried to market a 6-string bass/baritone model called the EB-6. I had heard about these but have never personally played one. They are quite rare - I think the SG model was limited to a run of 66 guitars.

Their first attempt was a semi-hollow 335 body with a bass bridge and other mods, from 1961. The second attempt was with the SG body style which had become Gibson's flagship solidbody model, and this was 1963-64. Neither was a success.

I mentioned it earlier but at this time Barney Kessel was one of Gibson's most visible endorsers, and Gibson would send him guitars and new designs on request or just to try out. It surprises me that no photos that I'm aware of show Barney with either of these baritones, yet Barney was playing the less-ornate Danelectro as early as 1957 in the studio.

These are nice guitars, visually, but there has to be a reason why they never caught on among players. The Danelectro was more often the "go-to" instrument, from what we can tell.

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/eb6.jpg)

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/eb6sg.jpg)

This has probably been posted here long ago (nine pages is a lot to look through when there is work to be done). If not, it may add to the "WIBN" discourse:

http://www.larrylevinerecordingengineer.com/documents/151.html (http://www.larrylevinerecordingengineer.com/documents/151.html)

Well, I wrote that, and the article also has a permanent home here on smileysmile.net.  Glad it has proliferated around the net.

To the bat-eared Boiled Egg, that's two guitars.  Playing this.

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6201/6065456493_d869265df8_o.jpg)

Now bend your auricles to Wouldn't It Be Nice (Take 7) on SOT, Vol 13.

At 2'25" you hear the guitarist practising the intro riff with the opening double stop (two As an octave apart) starting to sound out of tune - so (at 2'36") he switches to the open G (on which the lower A is played on the 14th fret) and the octave G on the third fret of the E-string (which plays the upper A in the intro on the 17th fret) to check the tuning - and right there, that's the unadulterated sound of the upper of the two guitars playing the intro.

As to what it is, er… well, sounds like a steel-strung electric six-string to me.  But I'll take soundings and beatings from all comers.

And, to EbbAndFlow: I'd say that's a flute and two clarinets on 'Ego'.

Is it possible that the intro guitars (at least one of them) is in slack key tuning (I saw this claim somewhere on the 'net awhile back).

I'd strongly bet against that. If one of the 12-strings were detuned, that would mean it would have to be played even higher up the neck, at a higher fret. Playing above the 12th on a 12-string electric is already challenging enough, and the intonation is unreliable to begin with, let alone dropping the strings into an open tuning.

It just wouldn't be practical for a 12-string in this particular case.

One song that is in drop tuning is the bass part on Sloop John B. It's dropped down 1/2 step. That surprised me as I transcribed it a few years ago.

Makes sense!

According to Carol she and Lyle only dropped the E string to E-flat and just played with the tritone interval to the A-string.

I also doubt it's slack tuning, if not for the above reasons, for the fact that the guitar tunes to E at one point, which is the same clue that leads me to believe it's not a mandocaster.  It still could be a short-scale instrument, which would make it sort of slack tuned in a sense.  Like if John Lennon's Rick was a 12-string and strung with slightly heavier strings than necessary...