The Smiley Smile Message Board

......he says according to BBC Radio 6 interview - he says he's listened to it  :lol and approved it

Right on!

Thanks for the heads up with this interview. Mindblowing hearing Brian talk about this in the context of it finally being released:

"I approved it -  I listened to almost 4 hours of music. The actual smile album is just a tiny fraction of all the stuff we recorded but i had to approve it before they could finish it."

"And how does it sound, because I can't wait to hear it?"

"Oh, it sounds great!"
 
;D ;D ;D

BW: "I approved it, I listened to it all, almost four hours of music. The actual SMILE album is just a tiny fraction of all the stuff we recorded but I had to approve it before they could finish it, you know?"

And how does it sound, cos I can't wait to hear it?

BW: "Oh, sounds great, yeah."

Beat me to it!!

Sorry, I added to my original post!

So now that the key players have signed off on this we know the sequence must be in place. We know from VDP's comments that the packaging is finished. Maybe the July date is a possibility after all!?

I thought they'd still be some months away from completion but maybe not.

Very disturbing, as they can't possibly have had time to incorporate all the instructions and advice we've been giving them from this board.

;D

   :lol

haha! Imagine if they had to get the Smiley board to sign off on this? It would NEVER see the light of day.

God imagine 1730 different tracklistings  :lol

VDP still has to write his 1,000 words for the booklet on his return to LA in May.

He's heard something... but not the finished product, as four hours would fit neatly on three CDs, and we know the box is at least four. Also, note Brian states " I had to approve it before they could finish it."  There are other excellent reasons why he couldn't have heard the final product, but these will suffice.

Of course, this will only give Phil more grist for his mill, as he'll interpret this as "see, they've not finished it YET !"

No, we actually know nothing of the sort: read Van Dyke's interview again and it's very clear that he's just repeating what others have told him, and that he's seen - and heard - nothing. Thus:

"I hear the box set is going to be absolutely beautiful. It will be very comforting to see that it's finally commercially available."

As for reverting to the originally reported July date ? No.

I'll take all 4 hours of it - no frills, no vinyl, no limited-edition stickers, etc. Just 4 hours of pure Smile music.

Err why definitely not July??

Like what???

Actually Andrew if you listen to this VDP interview he says he HAS seen it - something about a Faberge egg http://near90leftofthedial.podomatic.com/ - go to 12.40 is

And this from another recent interview - http://music.uk.msn.com/features/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=157537827

Brian and his impeccable musicians recorded and released their own version of Smile that year; a much happier and lighter affair than the fabled and much bootlegged 1967 sessions. But this summer sees the first ever official release of those original Beach Boys recordings, with the endorsement of their creator.

"I listened to all the tapes, and I approved some of them and I disapproved some of them. But they're bringing out the tapes that I approved."

Anyone got a link to this?

Cheers!!!

What SMiLE album. It was never an album. Agreed that the finished tracks were a "tiny fraction" of all the stuff recorded, but.....


What's he going to say at this point in the game? "Nah, it sucks. it's not Beach Boys music".

Both links in my posts

I was basing my comment about the packaging on the fact VDP has made reference to it in several interviews. Also as far as Brian's comment about approving it "before they could finish it" goes, that could be read two ways: That he had to approve it before finishing touches could be made, or that he had to approve it before they could call it a finished product.

Why the skepticism about the July date? I'm clueless about the process here - what might be left to do if (big if, granted)  packaging, sequence, mix and signatures are in the bag?

Well that's cool to hear. I was thinking it's getting stalled because Brian doesn't like it

I sure hope there is a consensus between Brian and the fans concerning the stuff he disapproved of!!  I would hate to know about good material that was left off this set because it brought back bad memories or for some other minor reason(s) other than artistic or sound quality. But after all, it is his call and we need to trust his judgement. We have no choice!

Surf's Up? Nah - junk that.

Well, if the multi-disc set is reduced to three CDs, we'll know he objected to quite a bit! I'm going to hope that Brian was in a logical frame of mind that day and rejected just the drug talk and "party" recordings.

Some of the chants are compelling - other spoken word pieces like the "lifeboat" sketch are kind of pointless.

With this kind of material, you can almost pick out what will and what won't be included from what we've already heard, and since we've already heard it to some degree it's no big deal. But I personally think certain parts of the spoken word material are compelling, but unlike a lot of fans I suppose, I love hearing audio verite recordings where they just let the tape roll and capture everything that was going on in the room, good or bad.

Now if drugs and drug references are going to be edited out or left off, say good bye to a clean recording of the "Our Prayer" session as we know it on this box set. Unless they edit out words like "acid" and "hash joints" from the tape.

Actually, I'm glad that Brian is involved. I hope that maybe he gave some insight (upon hearing this 4 hours of music) to piece the puzzle together.

What if not all 4 CDs are maximum length?  Suppose, hypothetically, that Disc 1 presents a stand-alone "finished" Smile album, and it only runs, say, 40 minutes .  That leaves 200 minutes, just about the right amount of material for the other 3 discs.

… or maybe even said "Hey, why'd ya leave THIS off?…" (rummages in box under his piano and pulls out a hitherto-unknown tape box. "THIS was gonna be the centrepiece, not that Heroes stuff!"

And what if that "centerpiece" turns out to be "He Gives Speeches"?  :p

I just want vinyl

Sorry, all my good stuff is metal backed

Thanks for that - obviously a very recent development. His 3 album comment is somewhat confusing, but I think I know what he means.

I really wish they would leave in the drug references. "Denny, you got any hash joints?" would definitely add a sense of ambiance and an intimate 'fly on the wall' look inside the studio during the Smile sessions.  ;D

I'm skeptical about the July 12th date - which btw has been supplanted by an August 9th date for some time now - for a few reasons. I'll be astonished if it's out by then, or indeed August 9th.

Me too but lovely Faberge egg comment I think - some indication that it might be pricey

The Faberge Egg comment tells me that we will be peeling back layers of sound. Finding gems inside of gems. That we will be on the inside as all the music is created. A great way to describe Smile.

A very nice way of describing it

The July 12 date stuck in my mind for some time and I couldn't remember why until I remembered this:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/khj71267.jpg)

The Heroes And Villains single first appeared anywhere (IIRC) as a "hitbound" single on this KHJ survey from July 12, 1967! I remembered the date because there is a tape of a KHJ DJ giving a lukewarm (some might say puzzled) response to the record after he played it later that same week. This date is within a week or so of the famous incident at KHJ where the night-shift DJ Tom Maule wouldn't play the record on air after Brian organized a caravan to the station for an exclusive premiere.

Damn, how I would love to hear a tape of that night but chances of that are basically nil since hardly anything was recorded and saved.

July 12  - coincidence.  :)

That guy is the spitting image of Reg Presley.

 :-D

That guy is Robert W. Morgan, one of the best DJ's in American radio history. He worked the morning drive-time shift at KHJ and other LA stations for years, and is still considered one of the best ever. From what I've heard of his 60's KHJ airchecks he was a terrific morning DJ.

I have a few recordings of his "Special Of The Week"; he did a few for the Beach Boys and he did one for the Moody Blues. He's done a bunch of others, of course, but I only have the previously mentioned ones!

A little addendum - for those of you who get into radio interviews with the Beach Boys, try and find any of Pete Fornatele's interviews with any or all of them. His 1988 interview with Brian is probably the best Brian interview of all time.

Not to get too far off track on this topic, but...

Robert W. Morgan and the other original KHJ on-air guys set one of their first commercial promos to the music of "Little Deuce Coupe", and featured the backing track with vocal harmonies by Bruce and Terry, and featured Morgan, Roger Christian, Don Steele, etc. singing their own lines over the LDC track.

The Beach Boys, especially Brian, had a close relationship with KHJ, and according to Ron Jacobs it was Christian who helped that relationship after he left his old station for the upstart KHJ. At least they say that's how the station was able to use and rewrite a Beach Boys song to promote their new station format!

So it must have been all the more crushing when KHJ refused to play heroes that night, since Brian had been very, very good to them in the past 2 years when they needed him. Sort of sad they had to appear when a brand-new DJ was on the air instead of Steele or Morgan who would have devoted the full show to a Brian Wilson exclusive.

What's the deal with eggs? I don't quite get the reference.

Those promos are actually available on the M&M Productions Bruce and Terry CD from 1994. You might remember M&M as the same company who put out the Still I Dream Of You CD of Brian's outside productions.

"This is Fabulous FAM, number one in the West!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faberge_egg

Oh yeah, I have the original KHJ track with Morgan and Steele and the rest of the original gang doing their raps as Bruce and Terry harmonize. An unusual track for sure since the DJ's don't really "sing", but it got played in the rotation of records as a full track lasting just under 2 minutes.

They sent the backing track around the country to their other network stations so they could add their own local on-air voices and use it as KHJ had used it to promote the station.

An interesting footnote in the whole KHJ-Brian Wilson connection for sure!  :)

It's a clever little ditty. You can tell that Terry Melcher produced it as it has that trademark sound of his.

Ahhh...okay. I was thinking something about Barnyard and chickens lol

But what are the reasons?!!!

To be honest I'm confused as to which date to believe. IIRC David Beard posted shortly after that August 9th date was announced to point out that no date had been confirmed at that point. Is Direct Current Music a source to be trusted or is it just a case that the furthest date into the future is the most feasible? Hoffman somewhat cryptically poo pooed the August date, although I accept his word re smile is of little value after his original impressive 'forecast'. Then there's VDP's September claim. Finally, let's not forget Al Jardne told fans at the RSD signings that it would be out in July. I'm getting good vibes from Al with this whole thing: reckon he's the man to back!

Hope that doesn't mean "Fire." I mean, he re-recorded that piece and performed on stage with a presentation that made it seem like we were in Brian's head circa 1966  :lol

I'm guessing more then likely he disapproved some of the spoken word pieces and perhaps some crappy quality stuff.

I can't remember what was said on RSD.  Did Al really say July?  I thought he said, "Summer."  Nonetheless, if I hear conflicting predictions from VDP, Steve Hoffman, Direct Current Music and Al Jardine, I too will place my trust in the Jardine.   Seems like common sense.  As a 25% owner of Brother Records Inc, Al is in a far better position than VDP, Steve Hoffman and Direct Current Music to have an idea of when this thing will be released.

As far as I can remember, a few posters from here who attended Al jardine's RSD signings asked him and he said The Smile Sessions would be out in July. May have just been one guy from here - anybody?

Granted  - not gospel by any stretch. I think the sheer fact that there are about 5 conflicting dates floating around suggests it's anybody's guess at this point and, as such, why not err on the side of optimism and place your trust in Al?!

VDP didn't say September - the interviewer did. In this instance, I wouldn't bet the farm on ACJ. 8/9 is more credible than 7/12, but I'm still dubious.

Hey, What'd you do with the old fogie and his steampipe hat, and who's the 3/4 yokel that replaced him?

I'm the one who attended Al Jardine's RSD signing in Berkeley. Al said 'Smile' would be released in July. Capitol confirmed the July 12 date.  Subsequently, it has been reported by Direct Music that 'Smile' will be bumped to an August 9 release date. Almost two weeks ago, Van Dyke Parks posted on Mojo.com that it will be released in September 2011. Awaiting confirmation by Capitol/EMI on the August 9 release date.

What does Direct Music know that nobody else knows? For what it's worth, I have an e-mail into these guys to find out whether or not Capitol/EMI has confirmed the August date.

Mikie, when did EMI confirm a date? I don't recall ever seeing an announcement.

I edited my post. Just the facts, man.

Is the glass(or box set) half-empty or half-full, now that Brian has approved a significantly truncated version of what the box set was going to be? And what if the other required signatories(Mike Love, Al Jardine & the estate of Carl Wilson) demand further cuts to the tracklisting?
                      AGD call's me "The Devil's Advocate", but I'm merely bringing the dreamers crashing back down to reality, a reality that we've experienced before from the feuding Beach Boys. The box set has already been compromised.

Significantly truncated - says who - Capitol says its 4 CDs - no one else has said anything different - ever

Dude, where in the blue FODA does it say, imply, or even insinuate that Brian approved a "significantly truncated version"? YES, I want sources. And I want them NOW because this is beginning to sound like mindless trolling.

Don't be silly - the SMiLE album would occupy 1 (one) CD all by itself, as it should.

I'd be pissed as hell if it were presented as a CD with "extras" on it. After all these years, it deserves it's own friggin' aluminum disk, just like it will deserve it's own slab of vinyl. At most, SMiLE would be what, 40 minutes (20 per side)?

This will be the Holy Relic.

That gives 3 1/2 hours of "stuff" to spread out over 3 other CDs.

A perfect fit!

Phil, I think I was the one who called you a "devil's advocate" (though others may have used that term, as well), but you really do seem to relish that role.   I mean, come on.  The Estate of Carl Wilson is going to demand that tracks be cut from the box?  Jonah and Justyn are planning to demand that some really cool mix of Wonderful be cut from the box?   Really??  You certainly do dream up some absurd things to worry about.

Because Brian himself said that he rejected some material presented to him by the compilers. The question is, How much?

Carl's estate is one of the four voting members of Brother, correct? Then their permission(and Al Jardine's) is needed.

Phil, I must ask you this. On a four CD set taken from THIRTY HOURS OF SESSION TAPES just a few things will be rejected. Unless you know of a way to put thirty hours of stuff on four CDs.

Sure, theoretically, they could object to something, but why would they want to?  Just to annoy Phil?

Capitol's factory could also be destroyed by a meteor...

But are we forgetting that the "Pet Sounds Sessions" box was delayed for a year and a half by Mike Love's objections to certain liner notes or mixes, or that the tracklisting of the "Hawthorne, Ca." 2-CD set had to be changed(to omit some "Smile"-related material) to get unanimous permission  for release. Devil's Advocate though I may be, I am basing my reduced expectations on what we've previously experienced from The Beach Boys. You may think I'm being pessimistic and/or paranoid. Actually, I'm being realistic.(Actually, paranoid people are people who know what's really going on.......just joking!)

It seems everyone shits a brick when these unofficial dates change, yet none of these dates means that there is a release delay.

Is this guy really serious? This is getting ridiculous. I get a laugh out of oldsurferdude, and even though i think Fishmonk and Tobelman's ideas are off the mark, I don't feel that they are bringing down discussion or trolling. But this Cohen guy, I mean, what does he think is gonna happen? Are they gonna cut that version of "Do You Like Worms" that had full vocals. Or trash that version of "Heroes And Villains" that includes "I'm In Great Shape" and "Barnyard"*. No, they aren't.

Most likely it will be little studio sections that Brian (THE FACKiN' ARTIST!) didn't want on there. Honestly, if Brian approves it, its fine with me. I take this as his final word on SMiLE and whatever he wants to give us, is fine with me.



*I know nothing of "Worms" with a full vox, nor "H&V" with those 2 songs included, haha.

Glad to see that things are moving right along.  I agree with AGD regarding the release date - if they are just getting around to band member approvals now, any date before September seems incredulous, just from a logistical perspective. 

I'm not too concerned about Brian's rejection of some of the material.  As others have said, it's probably minor studio chatter and/or Vosse posse arguments and chants.

sh*t, if the official box set disappoints you, stick with your bootlegs. :)

Right. To me, the release date is cast in stone when Capitol/EMI confirms it.  Unless Direct Music has an exclusive on this information (guy who runs it was Sr. VP of Sales/Marketing for Sony Music/BMG so maybe he has connects at Capitol) then they and a fan's blog are the only sources for the delayed August date.  Film at 11.

I hope that we don't have to, but the decision is out of our hands. But, of course, we're not losing the material we've already got.

There will always be a "market" for bootlegs. With the Pet Sounds box set you had an excellent distillation of that fruitful period of the band's career, and the bootlegs were even more icing on the cake. The Smile box will be no different.

Just stick to your own stuff Phil, no doubt you'll bash it from pillar to post when it's released!!
http://bigozine2.com/roio/?p=702

Just got a message from Dave at DirectCurrentMusic.com

"According to the EMI release schedule, August 9 is the most up-to-date street date. I guess you can call it "confirmed" but you never know. As of a couple of weeks ago, July 12 was "confirmed" too.

A lot goes into the decision to post (or move) a street date -- simply gathering up the materials for the package, actually manufacturing the discs and booklets, can be daunting. I used to work for the Sony Legacy group that handled a lot of the box sets and reissues for Sony/Columbia/Epic -- and it was always some issue or another...sometimes down to getting the rights to a photograph in the booklet.

Mike, I'll keep tabs on the Beach Boys product...if something changes, we'll update it."

That's nice of him to send that to you; I wonder how it is that he's the only person in the world privy to the August 9th EMI release schedule.

Read some of Phil's comments. Al Jardines announcement was a hoax and then retracted!!

Many people seem to think that this is a very good "Smile" indeed....assembled "by the book"(Domenic Priore's 2nd edition of "Look,Listen, Vibrate, Smile")

Wait, if he signed off on it, does that mean  :hat

Who really cares! The real SMiLE will be out soon and then you can find something else to deny or blow your cash on!

Phil, show me exactly where it says this - precisely this, that Brian has approved a truncated version of the originally announced box. Please, show me. Because I cannot find it, possibly because he's not said anything like that. Brian's listened to some - not all - of the available material, and vetoed some of it. Might have been 95% of it, might have been 15 seconds - I don't know and neither do you. My bet is,  they presented him with the peripheral stuff, not the likes of "H&V". "Worms" & "Fire" which have to be included, the potentially contentious bits such as the monumentally tedious studio parties and arguments. Like someone else said, Mark & Alan started off with 30+ hours of material, which had to be winnowed down, and was.

You don't know what you're talking about, and I state that with absolute confidence.

Good work Mikie!

So August 9th is the best date we have at present. Let's hope that doesn't shift too much.

I would think the fact that Brian Wilson said he was interested enough to sit and listen
for at least three hours, and say it was great is very positive.

I can't imagine EMI in their current financial condition, going to all the expense of hiring
people like Mark Linnett and the studio time, and the book and everything else for something
that wasn't in the bag.

EMI must have spent a pretty penny already, I would think so. EMI has also been involved
with reissues from The Beatles, Queen and Pink Floyd and all those are coming to pass exactly
as advertised. Why would SMiLE be any different? Who would spend all that money to get this
ready and make a big announcement if it wasn't happening.

Truncated? I haven't heard too many 40 minute albums lately with four discs and four hours
of program. Sounds pretty extensive to me. I can't wait I am looking forward to it. I might just
buy the two disc set depending how they lay it out.

Because(in Pink Floyd's case) Roger Waters & David Gilmour were willing to briefly put aside their years of interpersonal hatreds and agree on creating superb products for the fans. Past history has shown that the situation between Mike Love & Brian Wilson is different, and they may not be able to so easily agree on the contents of archival product. And as for AGD, it is true that i don't know(and may not know, even when a "Smile" box set is released) whether the amount of material that Brian Wilson vetoed is miniscule or significant.......but you don't know either. It could be that the vetoed material is stuff that we already have on bootlegs.....or perhaps not.

Why should past history inform this release ?  You could say exactly the same about the Floyd projects, but Roger & David are probably in a better place in their personal relationship than they've been since... oh... 1975 or so.

You're scrabbling around on the floor, trying to find any reason you can for this project not to happen, and you're going so far beyond playing Devil's Advocate (and trust me, I know a lot more about that role than you think) that we're entirely justified in thinking there's some other agenda.

One more time: short of EMI/Capitol going belly up, Mark and/or Alan suddenly vanishing from the face of the earth or Brian changing his mind and saying "no", The Smile Sessions will be released, in the format announced and by the end of the summer of 2011. This is not my supposition, or wish. It will happen, irrespective of how much you don't want it to. I know my history of past BB archive releases and abandoned projects. I have every reason to be skeptical, but I'm not. Think about it.

If anything I'd say the relationship between Brian and Mike will only help the SMiLE release - Mike has for months or even years seemed very keen not only to work with cousin Brian but also to socialise, and they have. They might have their differences but they still talk.  They're blood relations.

Mike's enthusiasm for working with Brian suggest to me that he'll avoid any disagreement he possibly can and if that means signing off on a Brian-authorised SMiLE release, that's what we'll get.

Let's have a little optimisim!  Let's wear SMiLEs through the summer!

You're taking those comments out of the context of March 2011, when the comments were made. The comments were made in the context of the known realities of March 2011.

Queen, who own their catalogue, took the recordings off of EMI last year. The U.S.A. license has long resided with Disney's "Hollywood" label, and the non-U.S.A. license is now with Universal Music.

"Back in 1967, Brian never did finalise a running order for “Side One” of the album..."

Entirely true.

 "... but the group of selections from “Good Vibrations” through “You’re Welcome” are indeed Smile’s intended “Side Two”, and the sequence of tracks “Look/Vegetables/Holidays/Wind Chimes/Fire/Friday Night-I Wanna Be Around/Water-Love to Sat Da Da ARE “The Elements” in their intended running order."

Entirely bullshit. You don't know, I don't know, Dom doesn't know, none of the studio players knew and as far as can be ascertained, Brian didn't know. What do we know for sure about the sequence of either side of Smile ? That "Prayer" might have opened the album. That's all. Everything else is personal conjecture until a working TARDIS is developed.

Phil, you've committed the cardinal sin of any halfway decent researcher/historian - you've stated your own opinion and claimed it to be fact. You're totally misleading fans with your lies, and they are lies because you're claiming to know something that's beyond knowing. I really thought you were better than this. I was wrong.

I'm not saying that this "Smile" compilation is the best "Smile" that will ever be, but it is the best "Smile" available until and unless Capitol releases their version. And personally, I prefer the Priore running order to the BWPS running order.

...and ya' know when I wrote those words? Back in  2002 or 2003(8 or 9 years ago) when the last revision to my "Smile" compilation was made. Unfortunately, I believed some of the less-than-accurate ideas being put forth by Domenic Priore at the time. He was, after all, the "Smile" authority of those days.

Well, seeing as you've evidently amended the text back in February to note the upcoming release, I have to ask why you didn't change those totally unfounded claims at the same time: it's not 2003 any more.  I started my BB site back in late December 2001, and since then it's been updated on a weekly basis.

Oh, and this, in the comments column dated 2/15/11 ?

"As it turns out, Al Jardine started a hoax, which he has now retracted. “Smile” is not going to be released officially."

Not a hoax, as you well know, and as I pointed out to you in a PM that you chose to make public... but at least now we know why you're hell-bent against the project being released.  ;D

Brian apparently has made decisions on what to include and what not to include on the box set - my fervent hope is that any NEW finds (acetate edits, unbooted sessions or vocal attempts) were not amongst the tracks vetoed!  Hopefully Alan and Mark (and Melissa) were able to present the material in such a way as to influence Brian on what to include.

Melissa ?  Who dat ?

Yes, who IS this elusive Melissa? I'm thinking Lou might have meant Melinda, but y'never know these days. All this time Smile had a completed second side running order!

The page on the Big O website is no longer active(the download is no longer being offered), nor is the page readily available to read. Those comments were made at a point when Al Jardine had retracted what then appeared to have been a hoax, and before Capitol's announcement. With that page on the Big O website no longer active or readily available to read, then was no reason to update the status of the offical "Smile" project, nor was there any possibility to update the information there.

Andrew, you say that I don't want an official "Smile" project to be released, but I do want it to be released. My true viewpoint, is that I'm irritated at all the secrecy. Why couldn't Capitol, The Beach Boys & Mark Linett toss the fans a few crumbs of information.? Given the 44 year on again/off-again promises of an official "Smile" release, giving the fans more information would shore up consumer confidence that this time, it is going to happen; that the project isn't going to falter and fall into long-term limbo. After all, Pink Floyd is giving their fans complete or near-complete information(and a photo of the products) for the three large "Immersion" box sets("The Dark Side of The Moon", "Wish You Were Here" & "The Wall"). Excepting the disc 3 & 4 contents for "The Wall" 7-disc set, Pink Floyd have given their fans complete information on these forthcoming projects, but The Beach Boys, Mark Linett & Capitol Records are taking the stonewall approach: no information, and of course, this leads many(such as myself) to doubt that this project will be completed and released.

yeah, OF COURSE I meant Melinda - I have Melissa on my mind today (never mind who she is!).

This will now spawn a 20 page thread about Phil trying to figure out who the hell Melissa is...

Ah,back home, he always runs to  sweet melissa

:lol

Maybe Al's premature announcement forced them to admit to a project that was 3/4's finished?

Besides, it's their right to stonewall until they are ready. And they obviously are not. SO RELAX.

I don't agree at all about Capitol Mark et al "stonewalling" - they are being cautious about leaking information prematurely before Brian has signed off on the content of the 4 CD set and before an agreement with Frank was reached to use his artwork.  Before those two things happen, pictures of the set and package or track lists wouldn't mean anything, right?  And leaking potential art/packaging with Frank's art and without his permission would surely have destroyed the negotiations, as might leaking track lists and having the nuts at the Blueboard weigh in with their two cents.

We will get track lists and photos of the packaging in plenty of time to decide if we want to purchase a deluxe box set - as if either would matter to most of the fanatics, myself included, on this board.

Uh, this is speculation, right? Nothing's definite about this.

And speaking of Melissa, I wish she'd take a back seat to all this.  Or maybe she already did....... :-D

"Mike Love's vocals are still on it?!?!?! THEY SHOULD BE ERASED!!!1111 He doesn't understand the poetry in Van Dyke's lyrics! He'd be pumping gas if not for Our Brian!!!1111oneoneone"

"i was having a littlee dreamie last night about our brian and when hee was working on releasing the smilee box set for us all and hee said that hee would erasee the mikee lovee vocal performances before any releasee"

"Brian, we support You and Your Band and Your Lovely Family all the way. It is a shame that Your Smile Box Set is being release with Mike Love's Vocals Still On It but You know what's best. Love the SueStunBlueShow"

Erm…

PWNED

Melissa is the ex-wife of lesser-known, ginger goatee wearing Smile lyricist Samuel Pierce.  Rumour is she has an acetate of Geronimo Leaps in  her greenhouse.

So three articles over the weekend of March 11th-14th detailing the formats and talking with the chief engineer isn't enough ?  And maybe there's a very good reason why no further info.


This is the first time it's been officially announced by the label.


The Floyd situation is entirely different. All the albums in the latest reissue series have been released: it's just bells and whistles, buttons and bows.


On this MB, and others I frequent, you're the only one walking about with a sandwich board saying "not going to happen !" But, you're so entrenched in your negative mindset that nothing anyone can say will alter that. I repeat: you don't know what you're talking about, and I say that with complete confidence.

Your explanation is bs.  I remember you hyping the Phil Cohen version of Smile a couple of months ago.  You gave out a link to a site where your files could be downloaded, and you wrote on that very site that your version was the definitive Smile.  You were very absolute about it--in 2011.  And you were intentionally (or recklessly) deceiving people, as Andrew says.

It doesn't even matter when you wrote that cr*p.  It was never more than your (or Dom's) opinion, and you should not have presented it as fact.

Yet there's little doubt that you'll continue to make definitve statements about things that you cannot possibly know to be true.

I hereby suggest to our members here that the day the Smile box is released that each of us take a picture of him or herself with the box in hand, a middle finger in the air, and "PWNED" as the caption for Phil.

Dom CLAIMED to have consulted with Brian and some "Smile" sessionpeople in creating his running order for "Smile". Whether this is true or not, I don't know, but no one was coming forward to claim otherwise at the time. And I should note that Priore's proposed running order would have worked within the context of a 20 minute per side vinyl L.P........the BWPS running order would not have fit onto one vinyl L.P. .

Hey, does anyone know if Smile is being released this year?

And he did... but the fact remains that in 198-whenever, Brian wouldn't remember (if he ever knew, and the available evidence says not) and the session musicians wouldn't have known either, because they wouldn't even know what song they were playing most of the time. The only session player who's ever commented was Carol Kaye, who claimed Brian told her  that "The Woodshop" was the rebuilding after the fire. No-one has confirmed or denied that but given CK's track record in factual accuracy regarding which sessions she played on, I'll file that one under "questionable - unproven".

Plus, as you've stated, almost all of what was stated in LLVS ! has since been refuted by further research, as Dom will readily admit. That's one reason I'm eagerly awaiting his box set essay.

I thought someone posted here that in an interview with Van Dyke he mentioned Frank's artwork was being used?  I didn't read/listen to the interview myself, so that may be incorrect.

I do know that negotiations for the artwork have definitely been delaying the packaging being finalized.

Probably. Maybe. I dunno. Not sure I care, actually.

When reacting to Phil that's "poor baby" not porbably...   

Maybe the two of you could get n the ring together( with gloves)

Just re-read a couple of recent interviews with Van and didn't see anything about Frank. Maybe there's something I've missed too. I know a bunch of us are hoping that Frank's artwork be included.


That's the first I've heard that. I hope they're seriously negotiating with Frank, because the Smile box would be missing a key bit of its history without his artwork. I tried calling Frank in S.F. a couple of times, but no answer. Not sure he could say anything anyway, especially if negotiations with Capitol are indeed in the works.

Strawman, strawman, strawman.  This has nothing to do with BWPS.  It has to do with YOU continuing to make demonstrably false statements (i.e., Look is part of The Elements) and claiming these statements to be fact.  It was wrong in 2003, and it's still wrong now, but you're stull doing it, or at least you were in March.

I've decided(after a recent personal message from AGD) to exit from the "Smile" discussion. Good luck to all of you.

This is why when Phil posted here first up I was sceptical..Maybe you were angry you paid good coin for some "un-heard" material. Maybe you wanted to have the "best" SMiLE on the block, either way we dont care. SMiLE is coming out..release date and content TBA.

Just goes to show that diligent research and good natures will always win any Smile argument.

Brian staed to me that he had very little of an idea of sequence for Smile in 1982 or so. He said that he had three movements in mind. Whether he was putting me on or not is open for question. But the only evidence we have for anything on tape with him talking is that Prayer was to lead off the album.  Apparently based on 2003 info, he told Darian that Surfs Up was intended to finish the second of the 3 movements. For all you "12 track" enthusiasts out there, I recognize that this info does not support your ideas. But Brian has been consistent that he did not haveba sequence for Smile finalized in 1966-7. Perhaps further tape sources have revealed other data...we`ll see when the set comes out. My bet is for the equinox..9-21-11...just a guess!

I know someone who could cast a very reasonable horoscope for a Smile release.  :)

Once again, Phil's concept of the word "private" differs markedly from mine.  >:(

Poor Phil, another victim of the Smiley Smile mind gangsters.

Vaya con dios, Phil. :grouphug

Equinox=My Birthday and I will humbly except Smile as Brian's birthday present to me. ;)

Great. Now Phil has the inside scoop the rest of us are dying to hear. Why Oh Why can't I be better at debating unpopular points? Then I could  be the newest insider!



the fall equinox is actually September 23, 5:05 A.M. EDT this year. 

Don't worry, AGD just explained "shut up".

That's right, and I even posted that myself last week. Oh well, it will have to be a belated present. Now, I hear today that this Saturday will be the end of the world. At least so says a man holding a sign outside my office building in Center City Philadelphia, this afternoon. My luck that Smile is indefinitely delayed due to the end of the world.

That AGD; wise words from a wise man. ;)

Can you tell if it's AL?

Can anyone say or speculate, what would be the upper limit for a circa 1967 vinyl release
is it really 20 minutes per side, or could you go say, 25, 26 minutes per side?

I am not entering into the debate at all, about what the content or running order of
SMiLE would have been. I am just wondering, what a good mastering limit would be
for that period. It's a little before my time and I never really paid that much attention
to how much you could fit on a vinyl side.

Would the length have anything to do with mono versus stereo, and would the type of
music your mastering have much to do with length. For that type of music (SMiLE)
whats a reasonable upper limit for cutting the grooves in the wax

Is the disc one of the SMiLE box, the one approximating a finished album. Will they be
paying any attention to what the real time limit would have been in 1967 ?

thanks in advance

It should be noted that at the time (1967) there had already been albums consisting of a single LP holding roughly 25 minutes to a side. Miles Davis' Filles de Kilimanjaro a year later would be 57 minutes long on one LP. I don't think Brian would have been looking beyond a 30-35 minute LP, but even the BWPS order would fit on a single LP, though you'd have to split the second movement in half to accommodate it.

Which wouldn't have been bad on Reel to reel or 4 track cart, but watch out for that 8 track. 

Huh?  What would make you think that?  Pet Sounds was longer than 35 minutes, there was clearly enough material there for a longer album, and as you say, the technology allowed for significantly more than 35 minutes.

Well, we can build ourselves a TARDIS and try and go back and ask Brian but we don't know...

True, we don't KNOW, but the question is why you THINK it would be so short.

Just a hunch based on what we all know about Brian's modus operandi during that period. 30-35 minutes was the norm. Would he have gone for a 45 minute LP? Possibly. I don't think he was going to go progressive rock on everyone and release a double LP running 75 minutes...

Wilson was experimenting with long mixes of Hero's and Villians though correct?
One mix supposedly in the neighborhood of 7 minutes. According to who ? Bruce Johnston.


So possibly if 50 minutes were feasable on 1967 vinyl, he wasn't necessarily locked into
the 35-40 minute norm. or not ?

What I'm wondering is if the compilers of the box set, Mark Linett and that other fellow
if they will restrict themselves to 35-40 minutes on disc one, or if they may go longer.

Smile was almost night-and-day different from every Beach Boys album that preceded it except, arguably, Pet Sounds, which was more than 35 minutes.

I agree that 75 minutes would not have been at all likely.  I think 45 minutes would have been the limit, based, in part on discussions I remember from the Smile Shop of 10 years ago.  As I remember it, a few people who were very well-versed in the capabilities of vinyl in '67 concluded that an LP could have held 44-45 minutes of music with little or no loss of sound quality, but that past that, the sound quality would suffer.

I don't think 45 minutes is wholly unlikely as a running length. But in my opinion too many variables exist as far as determining that length. I'd say a mean of 37-40 minutes could have been more feasible; perhaps my initial 30-35 minute suggestion was a bit conservative. But it's really something hard to narrow down. If we take a lot of the stuff in context, would Holidays have been considered for the final album? Brian never returned to it after that initial session. Same with stuff like Look or even I'm In Great Shape. Way too many variables are missing.

As far as the box set offering an "approximation" of an album...I guess that's fine, however I'd be more interested in an "as-is" presentation. But with something like Smile it's not so easy. It's really difficult, actually. I'm trying to describe this as best I can however the words aren't coming to me...I think using a kitchen sink approach as far as mixes go. Basically, if it's on tape or some form of acetate from the period, put it on there, almost like how the Pet Sounds box had the bit with all alternate mixes. Just a disc of mixes for whatever is on tape as being mixed or test-mixed from that period. That is where the interest lies for me; test mixes of Brian's from that period. There are more than a few of them. Some have even showed up on bootleg. Those are the really interesting things. No crossfades a la BWPS, no reconstructed mixes from rough edits, just "as-is". We've taken Smile as a collection of pieces for years...the box set shouldn't be seen as a way to "finish" it. BWPS wasn't it, same should hold true for the box set. Still, it's early in the game. We have plenty to think about with the Smile box. I don't know how it could be presented. I'm all for surprises. I say, bring it on.

EDIT - I apologize for my rather disjointed posting here...I'm very tired yet I felt like I had to get this down somehow before I fall asleep and, inevitably, forget it! Perhaps tomorrow I can edit this a bit more...legibly and cohesively.  :lol

I thought disc one was supposed to be an approximation of the intended
finished album. Perhaps with some poetic license.

I would like to hear that, the smoothest, brightest, highest fidelity mixes
of a smooth running album possible, as if it was a finished album or nearly
so. I thought that is what the press release said they were doing.

I thought the remaining three discs. would have outtakes, alternate mixes
snippets, and the like. Three whole discs for all that seems adequate.

I would hate to see the first disc, jarring between high fidelity mixes, and
disjointed snippets or scratchy lo fi acetates, I would think the first disc
will sound something like a finished album, and the other three will have
a huge variety of demos. acetates, scratchy mixes. 30 second snippets,
unused song fragments and what have you.


I fully expect it will be great,put together with thousands of hours of
painstaking research, care, and excellence, to try and do justice to that
labor of love.

I think in lyrical concept and the story of travelling across America from east to west
and all the musical reprises and coda's it far surpasses Sgt Pepper in terms of concept
If Mark Linett can make all the pieces fit coherently perhaps it will finally get its due.

And I love the Beatles no knock on them, but SMiLE might be the best album almost made.

Well, it's been ages since I've posted here. I've been keeping up as much as I can, though, and I'm very much looking forward to this ;D

I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I feel that there will be astonishing things made on the "album" CD.

According to the Brians' quote "i had to approve it before they could finish it" and the Mark Linnet interview on Billboard: "there are things that we can do that was just technologically impossible when those bootlegs were made in the 1980's. For example, we can put Brian's vocal back into "Surf's Up,"

I understand Brian's quote like they worked on some digital manipulations to make mixes and edits that didn't existed before. So they needed Brian's approval as these are clearly artisic choices.

So this is pretty obvious they will do things bootleggers and us fans attempted several times, but of course they have more skills and better source material.

Nope, he doesn't. But I knew that something like this would happen, hence I asked him to keep it private, as in "don't tell anyone".  One day I'll learn.


Nah, more like fell on his own sword, with a side of hoist by his own petard.  :)

Wise words from Arthur C. Clarke, actually... and the full quote is '"Shut Up", he explained.'. Gotta have context.  ;D

All to do with sound quality, groove size and the type of music. Basically, loud music = short album or the needle jumps out of the groove..


Disc 1 of the 2CD set is the "as-close-as-we-can-get" version (descended from BWPS). As for the box, that will occupy the first three vinyl sides. As for the rest of the box - remaining album side, the 4 (?) CDs, the two singles - nothing's been said.

To Andrew G. Doe:

Hello, I'm sorry to bother you but I just posted what I feel is an interesting though about what Brian Wilson and Mark Linett said on the work in progress.

You posted 3 times since then (in less than 10 minutes).

Which:

- Is not very on topic (I'm sure there are other places where Phil Cohen and You can debate each others vision)
- Reduces the chances other readers get what I just said, and that's bad  :lol

It's okay -  this is a message board and the threads will be there as long as good ol' Comic List continues to pay his hosting dues.  Those of us who read everything won't miss your post!

So that's good news ! I stopped reading this thread on page 4, because of some sterile and off-topic debates and I'm glad to hear others are more courageous than me.

Rest assured here, everyone reads all the posts.

As for the other, entirely accurate observation - I just woke up: the tea & toast hadn't kicked in yet.  :)

Now:


Works for me. Mark's spoken of flying in Brian's vocals for the verses from the 12/15/66 session to the  instrumental track eventually used for the released version. Brian saying he listened to four hours of tapes clearly indicates that he was listening to work in progress, not everything available, which has been stated to be something like 25-30 hours worth.

Hopefully, flying-in such material will be done with regard for artistic and historical accuracy, and done a damn sight more sensitively than on Anthology 2, which even I noticed was dire.

Oh thank You for that info. So for me I probably need the two disc set,  because disc one of the two disc set, will be on vinyl in the 4 disc set.
That gives me a headache just saying that!. I cant play vinyl I doubt they would put the "as close as they can get" on the vinyl and repeat
the same content again on one of the four discs. I guess "real Fans" will burn there own adjusted copies. I'll probaly end up buying the
four disc a year later when I Live with it and see I need to make a substitution!

I would assume that disc 1 on the 2xCD and 4xCD set would be the same. And I assume that Disc 2 in the 2xCD set will be the pick of discs 2, 3 and 4 of the 4xCD package. It's just my guess, but otherwise there'd be six CDs of different material flying around and I doubt we'd be so lucky!  Plus, if BW's signed off four hours of material, that'd be awfully stretched across 6 CDs.

Here's what I copied from a post on the old Smile Shop board a decade or so before. The source of these is a certain Desmond F. J. (Desmond Jones?)

I used to cut 45 & LP laquers twenty years ago or so. Here is what could have been cut by Capitol Mastering at Hollywood & Vine for T-2580-A/B in January-May 1967:

12" blank cut on a lathe at 33 1/3 RPMs with a 3 mil monophonic routine cutting stylus had a maxium cutting time of:

112 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 11:36 m/s per side
136 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 14:06 m/s per side
144 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 14:48 m/s per side
220 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 22:48 m/s per side

Without "over cutting" the grooves, beyond 220 LPI the signal to noise ratio (s/n) starts to drop fast. For example a 25 minute LP side would really kind of suck technically!

Still, the English version of The Rolling Stones' "Aftermath" (UK version) LP runs 52 minutes and sounds great.

Fair point, and likely exactly what will happen, but wouldn't they have explicitly said so ?  We'll see. Later.

Thank you for that, I feared my remarks would upset you  :-\ Here's a suggestion I made: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10362.0.html



Do you think they will do other stuff like that ? I mean flying Brian's vocals on Surf's Up a la Anne Wallace is pretty easy. But do you see other "magic" (please notice the quotes, as digital manipulation is garbage to the eyes of purists) happening on other tracks ? For instance, I found a way to sync the vocals from 8th track of "UM16" of the "Look" choruses (makes something near the "Song For Children" version on BWPS). I'm sure they could do it even better ... Do you feel this could happen ?


I'd really wouldn't be against that  ^-^

If one is trying to create a "finished" type Smile album, then "magic" will be needed to accomplish that goal. Also, don't get to carried away with the thought of 6 CDs. Capitol has stated that 2 and 4 CD packages is what will be produced.

If anyone is an enthusiast in this discussion it's those on the "movements" side of the fence. There simply isn't any evidence that supports the supposition that a '66-'67 Smile LP would've consisted of movements. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that directly contradicts it--I'm happy to be shown otherwise but all existing info shows a '66-'67 Smile an album of 12 distinct tracks with fade outs (with the Elements a possible exception).  

Well, see Reply #124. Brian makes it sound like he might of been toying with idea, but who knows. Considering that he followed through with the idea for the live piece some 20+ years later, there must be at least a little merit to it.

Dylan's albums routinely ran 50-52 minutes - even after he went electric ("loud") with Highway 61.  I would argue that that album (and Aftermath) did suffer a bit in sound quality as a result, but still sound good.

What happened to the Americana and Elemental sides view??? Back in the day that seemed to be an accepted notion - I've been away for a bit so forgive me if its been poo pooed

While it may be a good aesthetic decision to keep CD 1 the supposed "album" and nothing else, the PET SOUNDS BOX SET followed the 36 minute stereo mix with session material to fill out the disc. Personally, I would prefer they fill the CDs to the max with material. If you want the pure experience of hearing just the quasi-finished tracks assembled, you can hit stop on your player before the alternate mixes/session stuff kicks in.  ;)

True, however the set also came with a mono album that only had the 13 tracks on it.

Right -- it could even be argued that the "core" disc of the Pet Sounds box was the remastered mono album, and ALL the other three discs (including the stereo mix of the album) were the "sessions" discs.

As for how the SMiLE box will be configured, I'm guessing that it will be like this:

(1) Disc One: Final "complete" Smile album -- probably based on BWPS, and therefore not 40 mins, but more like 50-60. No sessions. This makes it easier for Capitol to release this as a single-disc "Smile" CD down the road.
(2) Disc Two: The "best" of the sessions and alternates. I predict Disc Two will be the same in the 2-CD version and the box, because Capitol will want to keep it simpler, and not risk the box's D2 accidentally getting put in the 2-CD version, and vice-versa. Plus, having the same Disc Two in both sets lowers manufacturing costs. It's possible that the 2-CD version might even be packed in the box as-is, same packaging and everything.
Disc Three: More sessions, like disc two of the Pet Sounds box. I suspect these discs will be treated as "bonus" discs, filled with what the casual fan might consider second-tier material. After all, Disc Two (mass-produced for the masses) will have the best of the non-album stuff.
Disc Four: Alternate takes, edits, acetates and stereo remixes. The "best" of this category will be on disc 2, with disc 4 having the (relative) leftovers.

I can't wait to see the tracklist, so we will have something ELSE to talk about for a month or two!  ;D I'm especially curious about side FOUR of the LP -- will it be stuff from the CDs, or will there be exclusive material on there (as with BWPS)? I've hedged my bets and re-subscribed to ESQ, in case they have any exclusive CD giveaways (as they also did with BWPS) -- so in a way, I've already spent 30 bucks on the Smile Sessions!

-------------------
Sean Murdock

All good stuff but my view is that the "Smile Album" will be 40 mins or under as it probably would have been back in 66/67 - whether there are additional session stuff on D1 (a la PS) who knows.

Also I don't think we should see the ML BWPS template quote as meaning that it will be just a 66 version of BWPS - of course I don't actually know that but its my reading of what has been said and what hasn't been said.

It the artistic and historical accuracy part of AGD post which are the most important for me - as long there is proof that "the album" and any alternate mixes are not just the figment of anyone's brain but present an accurate picture of Brian's vision in 66/67 that's fine with me

Yeah, but at 40 mins. there would be no need to fill 3 sides of an LP. I would think it's possible that we get 50+ mins. Averaging 18 mins a side we're talking 54 minutes.

And how in heck is anyone gonna be able to verify that?????

Ooops - why can't we just accept it as being fact when it arrives - and put all the loony theories that aren't based on anything really factual to one side - or do we all think we know better. I just don't believe Mark and Alan would just make stuff up cos they feel like it - they know what the reaction would be from this board (me included)

Verification??? - something like this? - in the sleeve notes

D2 - Track 17 Heroes and Villains ?/66 (inc Barnyard, OMP, YAMS and IIGS) 7.08 - this mix was found on a ?/66 DP/AJ/BJ acetate and has been produced using what was found on that disc. The arrangement also appeared on a labelled tape box from ?/?/1966 bearing Brian Wilson's signature and in instructions given by Brian to Chuck Britz.

Would that do it ???? :3d

What are you reffering to on anthology 2?

Long as it's in Brian's blood (or ReadyWhip)!

@desmondo

We know they are going to be futzing with certain tracks. Example, Surf's Up; flying in Brian's vocals, etc. For it to feel complete, they will have to do some "magic" (as stated earlier) with some of the tracks. Not a big deal for me at all.

I'm still wondering why more voices and opinions were not solicited for such an essay on Smile. Not taking anything away from the past, because LLVS is one of my favorite and most-read books of all time, but it feels a bit like a "been there - done that" situation might develop around this essay, and I'd almost welcome some new thoughts from a different voice for such a project where Smile is being presented in a new and fresh way. How many versions of the same story can we read from the same author(s) without feeling like it's the same writing with a few tweaks and additions?

I'm just putting that on the table, and maybe it's only my own obsession with Smile and my having read everything out there multiple times that wishes there were a new voice and perspective in the mix on the writing.

I think if anything, it will be interesting to see how Dom's take on it will have evolved, given all the information since LLVS, and given what the box will consist of and, in particular, how disc one is sequenced. I'm sure if someone ELSE were to write the essay in the book, fans would be wondering, "But what does DOM think about all this?"

His writing appeared around the BWPS project too, where for the first time something resembling a sequence was presented beyond legions of fan mixes and fantasy compilations, so any thoughts may have been more valid at that time and we've read them. For this project, it's no different having someone sequence it in 2011 than it was in 2004 or 1993 for the sake of the project at hand. Neither one really matters since the original Smile was never sequenced properly in 1967, and all Brian did here in 2011 was listen to several hours of material and "sign off".

I think we need to go beyond the notions of building a sequence and just absorb the music and the details of how it was created. For me, the idea of a sequence has distracted many folks through the years from hearing the music and soaking it all in, with the bottom line being there *never* was an original sequence for Smile, and anything else is pure speculation or a new creation based on what was needed at the moment. It simply did not exist in 1967.

Nor for me as long as it was intended and 66/67 tracks

Haha - yes indeed

Tho, to be certain, we should put Brian under and play all the mind games we can to find out what exactly he does remember. Maybe he had a plan.

Peter Reum does suggest the three movement design wasn't a new idea in 2004, but no matter what people want to think I doubt there was ever a specific sequence or plan in place in 1967, and looking for one is pure fantasy because it never existed. If it had, I'd like someone to explain why such an original tracklist wasn't represented on BWPS since we had the co-creators from 1967 at the helm again in 2004.

That theory, originally Dom's right? still holds for a two sided vinyl album.  You've got to split one "movmement" onto two sides to do it, which, if you believe Brian had three movements in mind in 67 (and I don't), would be the childhood/cycle of life movement.

Putting the movements onto three vinyl sides with some kind of bonus cuts on the fourth makes no sense in terms of recreating what might have been in 66/67, but I guess that's how they're doing it using BWPS as a model.  Or template.  Or whatever.  The only up side is they may put otherwise unavailable stuff on side four (instrumental tracks, acetates of low sound quality not selected for the CD's)!

But remember, the Americana/Elements sides was just a theory of Dom's.  Haven't read or seen anything from the day, or even later, that suggests Brian had that as a plan (you'd think Vosse's 69 interview would have mentioned that).  It's more likely that Americana would have been interspersed with all the other tracks so that rather than having an Americana movement or section, Americana would have been a theme going through the entire album.  That would be more consistent with some of Van Dyke's statements about the album being an American Gothic trip, etc., than segregating the Americana tracks onto one side or the other.

My take is Brian wanted to distance himself from the 67 project, even while claiming his songs. Maybe he didn't/doesn't remember exactly( or just didn't want to be bothered), and rather than put himself in the middle of another no-win position, he chose to draw a whole new more contemporary framework. 
While it's easy to credit VDP as a co-creator, for the tracklist/production/LP, I view him as just another "hired hand". Yes, his lyrics are integral to the songs. But not to the integrity of the piece as a whole. That wasn't his "place". It was Brian's vision

For the average buyer or fan off the street who reads it, it'll be just fine. For the hardcore fan who has read everything and more, it might be repetitive. For the average Joes who have not read LLVS before (many people) it will be very revealing. I predict that even the hardcores will be happy with Priore's writings. We are hardcores and we'll be tough to please as can be expected.

Twould be nice if we got a little book with many of the musician's (those still alive) comments like we did in the Pet Sounds box. But I'm not so sure they'd have anything more of value to say as the Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations/Smile sessions were so close together and memories of particular sessions and songs would probably be hazy.

I agree 100%.   Too much time has been wasted on the sequence.  A sequence did not exist in 1967.  And let's not forget that Brian Wilson was in a very erratic period.  Even if Brian HAD sequenced Smile one way on, say, February 1, 1967, his sequence might have been substantially different on February 2, 1967. We're talking about an artist in a period of explosive creativity.  He was never some kind of rigid, predictable person who had one idea and stuck to it like glue.  Bottom line... don't get hung up on sequence.

I agree completely. Mark and Alan should focus on making disc one an enjoyable, coherent sequence of the best, most complete versions of every major SMiLE track -- nothing more, nothing less. Adding the pressure of "finishing SMiLE" or "solving the puzzle" only brings back the bad old feelings. Attempting to shoe-horn everything into the BWPS template is also more work and stress than they need to take on, imo. Just make disc one a fun listen of the best tracks, and focus on including new, cool stuff on the other discs.

My thoughts exactly.

I thought the musicians' comments and photos were a highlight of the Pet Sounds box, and would definitely welcome that with Smile too! Given what I've read, the memories are hazy if not non-existent when it comes to Smile, and even the reliable guys like Hal Blaine don't seem to connect with the questions about Smile.

I'm thinking one way to go would be to track down the original players as listed and heard on the tapes, and if possible have a listening session with them and get their comments as the tapes roll. It's not unlike a DVD package where they have a running commentary going on one audio track as the movie or show plays on the screen. These tracks can be *fascinating*, and I'd love to sit in a room with some of those musicians and play Smile tracks for them. It might jog the memory more than just asking about it.

I think there will have to be a degree of artistic license with disc 1. For instance, I don't think anyone imagines they've located a sequenced Elements suite amongst the acetates. As such, where are they going to place Fire in a way that is historically accurate?

My guess is that, in instances such as the above, where Brian left holes and work unfinished in 66/67, Mark and Alan will be forced to take a 'best guess'. Their best guesses will either be informed by the best information they have from the original sessions or participants' recollections (perhaps, for the sake of argument, Carol Kaye's assertation that Fire was to be followed by IWBA/FN, don't fall of your chair AGD!!), or they will default to the BWPS blueprint: i.e. Fire + Water Chant + LTSDD etc.

There are many tracks such as Fire that pose similar problems. Great Shape is another. Of course I don't know, but I'd be surprised if they have found enough info to sequence the bulk of the material in a historically accurate way. Imo for Disc 1, we'll get a bit of historical, a bit of BWPS and a bit of what just sounds good a la Mark's Heroes Sections mix. Anyone expecting historical accuracy all the way is setting themselves up for a big disappointment if you ask me.

And I never understood the obsession with Smile tracklists and sequences which led to the dozens of fan mixes through the years. The fact that a fan wants to compile a version of Smile based on his or her own choices and preference is fine, but to debate points of sequencing which never existed seemed like a distraction from the beauty of the music and the pathos of the whole thing, at least in my opinion. But to each his own, naturally.

My main point above is worth repeating: If there were a question about sequencing or tracklists from 1967, who would be better to ask than Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, and why didn't they use an original sequence in 2004 if it existed in any form? The fact that both men were actively involved in the project in 2004 yet had no original sequence to work from dating to 1966 or 1967 is about as clear of a sign there never was a sequence as we could hope to find.

Maybe not: They could simply present the material in chronological order based upon either when it was recorded or when a mix was done on the tracks to create whatever song fragment we're hearing. That way, there would be no nit-picking over whether Brian, David Leaf, Al Jardine, or Alan Boyd devised any given track order or edit, and the focus would be the historical nature of presenting a timeline of songs as they developed rather than another glorified fan mix.

That's not setting myself up for too big of a letdown I hope!

You may see this on the remaining 3 discs, but Disc 1 would have to be sequenced if the idea is to present Smile as an Album. I mean albums like 20/20 and CATP get criticized for non-cohesiveness. Can't have Smile getting knocked as just being thrown together without some kind of musical flow.

I know Brian Wilson probably did this already with Darian in 2004 and again with Boyd and Linett last year and again this year. Ah, to be a fly on the wall when Brian was listening to the Smile stuff!!  It must have jogged Brian's memory upon hearing some of these things, even after all these years of being unable to listen to it. Was 2004 the first time in decades that he's heard the material or was it the Smile tracks on the '93 GV box or Smiley 2-fer in 1998? Or before that with Carl & Desper listening to the tapes?

That's my suggestion: Since it was not a cohesive album until Brian released BWPS in that form, why even put that in the plans from the beginning? A historical release is just that: historical. If it never had a sequence, why not go historical all the way and present it as a timeline and not worry about musical flow? Maybe a single-disc release would be concerned with flow and sequence, but I have historical releases in several genres which work better for the set in chronological order no matter what the flow may be. We can program it ourselves any way we wish.

And in my own opinion criticizing CATP for non-cohesiveness is doing it a favor in light of the actual quality of the songs, but that's just my opinion. :-D

After the release of BWPS, I'm really interested to see how different/similar this version will be sequenced. Sorry, about your dislike of CATP. I really enjoy it and next to Sunflower and Love You it gets played more than the rest of their 70's albums. For me it is a great change of pace album.

I think I agree with you here. It's not so much what was the intended running order. But rather a flow for disc one, as close as possible
to a polished listenable album. Even flying in pieces or the finished Cabin Essence or whatever. All the other stuff is there for purists (hopefully)
I would think its the most anti consumer thing you could do, to have no "as close as we can get" to a finished album. I wouldn't mind if there was
a clear demarcation and they utilized the rest of the space on disc one for something else. As long as "(sic) "finished album" runs in sequence first.
By sequence I don't mean what may or may not have been intended in the 1960's. I mean a listenable finished sounding album now.

Three hours plus on discs 2-4 plus the running length of the LP vinyl should be plenty of program time to put lots and lots of stuff
What can you get on three Cd's 230 minutes plus? and then the vinyl another hour? or will the vinyl repeat some of the same program as
the cds

I would think without a finished album sequence you are trying to get people "not to buy the product" I think most regular non fanatic fans
just want to hear the lost album., I dont think they want to debate whether "look" or "the cantina" belong here or there or not at all.

You have to keep in mind that the idea of structuring an album as opposed to simply putting a bunch of songs together was a fairly new idea in '66. Even with PET SOUNDS, Brian's main concern was to present a full album of "good" songs" instead of a handful of hit single attempts plus filler. With all the tracks finished (or mostly finished), Brian could then sequence them in a way that appealed to him. What we got wasn't really a conceptual flow following a couple's relationship although it has been read that way; it was a collection of tracks including some stuff started a year-and-a-half earlier and one track that was an attempt to write a James Bond theme song.

I don't think Brian changed his viewpoint that much when he began working on the SMiLE album. As early as November '66, he's referring to it as "Good Vibrations", "Heroes & Villains" and "ten other songs". He's just cutting tracks and playing around with sequencing segments within individual songs. While he may have had a vague idea of how the twelve songs might appear on the album, he probably was waiting to finish the songs before considering a sequence. I don't think there was any "Americana" side or "Elemental" side planned. When the album was abandoned with almost none of the tracks finished, there was no need to develop a sequence. The gift of BWPS is the fact that Brian Wilson in 2003 was forced to sequence the material in order to perform it and came up with a really superb order.

I, too, will be really interested in reading what Dom has to say in the new booklet. Just back in 2005 he was claiming that THE ELEMENTS had all been recorded and that a completed version of SURF'S UP from January '67 existed in the vaults that had not been released yet!

Oh, and I also think SO TOUGH is a real nice change of pace for the band and listen to it quite often.

"We can program it ourselves any way we wish."

Maybe that's the problem here - lots of us won't accept the "Smile Album" as the genuine article cos we think we know best and will programme our own version despite what happens later this year.

Which for me is one of the greatest appeals of this release. I am quite looking forward to hearing others new mixes and mix my own.

 All the albums i love the most, I burn my own copies, I add Strawberry Fields to the Sgt Pepper album and Penny lane
and I do that sort of thing with dozens or hundreds of my favorite albums. But in order to sell SMiLE to the public, Don't
you think there should be a disc one approximating a finished sounding album ?  I don't think you can say to the average record
or cd buyer. ok its all here. sift through the four hour long discs and assemble your own.

People go buy dinner in a restaurant, they don't usually come out and dump a bunch of ingredients on the table and say
ok it's all here assemble it any way you want.  (unless you go to Benihana)

People like a finished album as part of the presentation usually I think.

I'd like to hear their representation of a finished or nearly finished SMiLE
before I burn 89 variations of my own copies.

I suppose strictly for the collector and SMile aficianado's it's considered a waste of space. To use a disc
with a presentation like that of a faux finished album

I look at it this way, we can screw around with the tracks, sequence them any way we want. So, why not let Brian, Alan and Mark do their thing, as well. I'm really excited to hear what they come up with, along with nice cleaned up mono mixes on Disc 1.

The issue is still the fact that there was never a finished album in any form after these sessions were in the can, and any attempts to do so will be challenged to no end just as some here on this board may think lesser of the BWPS sequencing because David Leaf or Darian whoever else had more to say about the sequencing than perhaps Brian did in 1967...or something like that.

If there were any notion that there was a blueprint drawn up in 1967 for how the tracks would be sequenced, that is part of the history. Since there is no such thing in existence, it becomes the choice of whoever is compiling it in 2011 just like David Leaf and Darian helped with on BWPS.

I wrote the line about programming it ourselves because that's all we can do short of having proof the songs were to be sequenced a certain way in '67, and had that existed Brian would have done that for BWPS.

Not to say a single disc compilation sequenced for musicality and flow wouldn't be a nice thing to hear, but it's really just a fan mix using much better quality tapes.

I'll just have fun listening. I can't imagine being so pent up on histories and "authenticity" that it would destroy any enjoyment of hearing what is being put together for us. Really we are all getting the best of both worlds with the delux release.

It's not that way for me either, I'm just saying personally I never got hung up on tracklistings and whose fan mixes were more authentic - I feel that stuff took away from enjoying the music because the tracklists had nothing to refer to for authenticity in the first place: it was all speculation.

If Brian has any input in sequencing, which I believe is highly likely, then that kills the fan mix deal. This whole release is a 2011 creation, so sequencing it in 2011 goes hand in hand with it. Sequencing is as much an art as the compositions. We know from concept albums that presentation of the music is very important in the success and acceptance of the material.

"...what matters, however, are not so much the individual bits, but the successive patterns into which you arrange them, then break them up and rearrange them."
-Arthur Koestler

I don't think anything can kill the fan mixes -- and honestly, I wouldn't want them to go away. SMiLE has become an organic, living thing over the past 40+ years, and the energy and love that go into the fan mixes are most of what's kept it alive all this time. BWPS was kind of like the ultimate "fantasy" SMiLE, because Brian re-recorded everything and could add all the little bits to make everything flow together. This will be more like the ultimate "fan mix" -- only this time the fans are Mark Linett and Alan Boyd, and they have Brian advising them AND all the master tapes. I can't wait to hear what they come up with ... but there's also a good chance that I will be revisiting my own SMiLE mix, armed with new fragments and improved sound quality.

Honestly, the only thing missing from the deluxe box of The Smile Sessions is a little fan interactivity. If they had included a DVD with MORE of the fragments and alternate takes, and then held a "Make Your Own SMiLE" contest, with the winner getting something cool (like 1,000 professionally pressed copies of their winning CD) -- that would have just been the greatest thing EVER. No matter -- most of us will be doing it anyway!

Fans can always mix the to be released stuff anyway they want to.

What I'm hoping is that the released tracks combine elements that weren't put together previously. Alan Boyd's "Heroes & Villains" combo on the Hawthorne, CA set was real cool & hopefully there will be more of the same for fans on the SMiLE Sessions.

Hi Sean, I think you misunderstood my meaning. I don't think this release will do away with fan mixes. What I meant was that Mark & Alan's sequencing is not a fan mix if Brian is involved. Just an original 2011 sequence with Brian's participation.

I think the point is this: the only person  many of us might agree would "know best" isn't around anymore. Brian of today is simply not Brian of 1967, nor does he have any interest in being him, nor should he. Furthermore, even when he was in a position to "know best", he didn't ever fully know for a very simple reason - the album was unfinished. He didn't even know how to assemble Heroes and Villains let alone the album as a whole. Even an album as cohesive as, say, Sgt. Pepper changed its track order at the last minute just before release. We can't really think that Brian was ever at a point where he knew how the album was entirely going to work, and certainly no evidence so far has suggested that he did. Fans don't assemble Smile because "we think we know best" - we do it because it's the best we can do.

I'm past the point of caring what's on this set. Just release it and be done with it.

Then we can care about what it's actually about......maybe.

Been hearing this a lot lately on a few boards

People are getting frustrated  :-\

I think that is something we can all agree with!  :lol

Oh, OK -- I get your point now ... although I do think that even with Brian's input it's still a "fan mix" if only because a "finished" 1967 SMiLE is an impossibility. That's not a knock on it, though -- it will be the most spectacular, most authoritative "insider" fan mix possible, especially if they diverge from BWPS and throw some surprises our way.

Don't give a crap about the sequence - back in the day I didn't always listen "in sequence" anyway.   Just get it out - in good quality with some "new" things.

i always listen to the sequence of an album.  I find it pretty important.  For smile particularly.  I've never made a fan mix and never will.  I like listening to others, but just like BWPS, i'll regard the sequence of this in much higher regard than any fan mix...though they are interesting.

In music, you learn to improvise and adapt by doing this. I believe this is key in why learning music can improve one's cognitive skills.

I don't understand the obsession with what the sequence in 1967 was gonna be. It's pretty obvious Brian didn't know.....if he did, then I'd say it is a big deal and I'd hope we could find out, but the facts are the album with still a pretty far way away from completion, with so much in flux, so its doubtful he had a tracklist.

So lets look at it this way, the he picked a running order for his 2004 album, Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE, and he will also have the final word on The Beach Boys album, The SMiLE Sessions. So as he is creator, whatever comes out this year is the final destination for the SMiLE sessions, with Brian's consent. We never had a 1967 final tracklist, so whatever....its much more interesting to me to see if Mark and Alan found stuff like "Barnyard" and "I'm In Great Shape" with lead vocals, or an early complete mix of "Heroes And Villains". Those are things we will have a tangible answer to, not "what was in Brian's brain on February 1967, or something like that.

Right on  8)

Brian will undoubtedly approve - or not - the sequence that Mark & Alan arrive at. However, I doubt he'll be supplying much active input on a weekly/monthly basis.

I agree--imo far too much attention has been foisted on the sequence. I guess much of this stems from the spurious claim that a 1966/7 LP would contain continuous "movements", etc. With that off the table the importance of the sequence is greatly diminished. I don't think the sequence is that much more significant than, let's say, Pet Sounds or Wild Honey. If Brian scrapped Pet Sounds in Feb. 1966 would we be obsessing for decades over where Here Today or I'm Waiting For The Day fall in the running order?

It's part of the allure to Smile. The ability to fashion any track order you wanted from the bits and pieces available. It's the ultimate do-it-yourself album. And it's going to stay that way, even after the boxset is released. In fact, I think it's a safe bet to say it'll only add fuel to the fire.

People need to realize that BWPS and what Mark & Alan are going to hack up isn't trying to be the definitive, authentic release of what was to come out in January 1967. They aren't trying to be a be all and end all of Smile, and nothing ever will be, not unless someone goes back in time and convinces Brian to finish it. (Actually, I think that subject was vaguely touched on in a fiction book I read a while ago. Gave me quite the pleasant shock.) All they are, is an attempt to carve out some sort of finished product out of what we have now. And that's all they'll ever be.

I think it's important to have a sequence though. Something everyone - consumers, critics etc. - can agree is the sequence for the commercially released Smile album as it stands in 2011.

It doesn't have to claim to be what Brian intended in 67. Just a definitve 'best of' the Smile sessions.

Agree. All that sequence has to achieve is something pleasing on the ear, especially the newbie ear that needs to hear this as a cohesive collection of songs, tunes and snippets – ie, no jarring, clunky jumps from one track to another caused by sudden disharmonious leaps in style from one song to another.

That said, I'll take what I'm given.  ;D

They should just stick with the hand written track list, it's fun to try and make smile into some prog concept album that divided into all these crazy movements, but it'll never be the final word on smile. No matter how much they try and say "this is the final word" there will always be doubts and questions. Van Dyke seems to refuse to explain SMiLE, Brian seems to have "forgotten" and pretty much everyone else had too limited a perspective to fully untangle things. For this set I wish they would just put the tracks in any order, let Dom give his theory as to the sequence in his book, and just be done with it. I would hate to think this release is being delayed in some way due to a track sequencing that is liable to be quite contentious no matter what. It's an archive release.

Exactly.  It's not going to be called Smile, or even Mark Linett & Alan Boyd present Smile - it's called The Smile Sessions. A sequence is nice for Joe Q. Public to listen to without going "huh ?" too many times... but it's not, never was and never will be, an album as we understand it, more like a publication of [your favoured authors name here] notebooks and working drafts. No-one, unless a working time machine is developed, is ever going to put out Greed - the original version.

We shouldn't however forget this quote from Mark's interview

Q. But will you attempt to present it as an album in a certain song order?

A. Oh sure, we will present it probably on a single CD

Hmmm - Seems as though there will be a running order in a certain order that will be called The Smile Album by lots of people even if its incomplete which of course it will be because not all the vocals were recorded as far as we know

I agree with using the "tracklist" in that order with whatever they can put together for each song. To me you can't do BWPS any better so why not stay original in a collection of the original? Nobody asked me though, so.......

Either way, we will have the sessions I'm good with whatever.

But I think it is common sense that a Smile Sessions release has a portion set aside as a playable album. If we also get (relatively) unaltered sessions, I don't see the problem. Both fans (the history buffs and the fanmixers) are catered for.

If this release didn't contain an album, it would never have gotten off the ground.

Yes, Mark and Alan will probably have to add their own ideas, hopefully based on the best evidence they can find. Of course the sequence they come up with (with a little/lot of/no help from Brian) will be marketed as the finished Smile, just as BWPS was. That's just marketing. We can hope liner notes clarify what is guess work and what is based on historical fact, but at the end of the day if I get a bunch of sessions (some possibly new), sounding crisp and clear, and the ultimate Brian endorsed fan mix to boot, I won't be losing much sleep over liberties taken with facts. Unravelling what really happened with Smile is what keeps this board interesting anyway. If it was all laid out for us, what would there be left for us to do with our lives?!!

With you all the way on that but I think D1 will be more than a 'playable album'

Thing is, if you are going to do the "close approximation of an album" approach, then you need to have a track list and sequence. For most of the buying public, Disc 1 is the selling key. Most people like order over chaos. I have no issue with presenting a 2011 track list and sequence on a 2011 album release. It's really the only way it can ever be.

This analogy isn't the best since Stroheim's long version of GREED was actually completed, at least in workprint form. Rick Schmidlin's reconstruction attempt presented an approximation of what the original version was like since, for the most part, we know what scenes were shot and what order they were to appear in. With SMiLE, not only do we not have all the parts that were supposed to be recorded (and we don't have some that were), but nobody knows the proper order of those segments.

Sorry about being pedantic about this! A better film analogy would be Welles' unfinished THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND. Even though there was a script, Welles filmed huge amounts of improvised footage and intended to create a feature made up of little snippets of film that could be edited together in a myriad of ways. Only Welles knew (or maybe he didn't know) how all the pieces were meant to fit together. Interested parties have been trying for decades to clear legal obstacles to assemble the film, but even if the project came to fruition, most Welles fans believe that any finished version would be inauthentic and not true to Welles' original unattainable vision. Sound famililar?

right.  I'm sure they feel a certain responsibility to release disc 1 as best they can as an album.  It'd be ridiculous if they didn't try for that, i'm sure they are. 

Fair point - I was too lazy to think of a truly incomplete film. Eisenstein's Ivan The Terrible: Part III or ¡Que Viva México! would have been better choices... or von Sternberg's I, Claudius.

I like the sequence Brian & Co. came up with for BWPS. The only thing that didn't appeal to me were the composed pieces that began the 3rd movement and joined "Father of the Man" to "Surf's Up."

The BWPS sequence was written with Brian involved using actual SMiLE era sections. That's as good a SMiLE sequence as you're ever going to get and the only way it's going to get better is by using the original recordings from 66-67.

That's what they're doing for the SMiLE Sessions & so, to me, that's great news.

I agree part of the allure of Smile or ANY album is the sequence.  George Martin sequenced the Beatles' albums and there was an art and a rationale for how he did it - basically, he put most of the good stuff on side one, the weaker stuff in the middle of side two, and finished off side two with a strong track.  But he also paid attention to how each song led into another - he scrapped his original sequence for Pepper and made it better for example.

But for Smile the sequencing never took place because there weren't the finished mixes to work with and try out.  There's only Brian's IDEAS for sequencing we have through session tapes and Vosse - Prayer intro, Surf's Up closer.  That's about it.  Brian usually ended and began sides with singles (Caroline No, god Only Knows, Sloop john B, etc.) so I suspect Good Vibrations and Heroes (and maybe Wonderful) would fall into that category.  But it's not surprising without finished mixes that there would be no sequence.

Nice one

It's interesting in light of this discussion and others like it to remember there was talk of Don Was and Todd Rundgren being involved in a possible Smile CD-Rom release in the mid-90's which would have collected all the Smile tracks and let fans have a go at sequencing it on their own. It was a very forward-thinking approach which pre-dated a lot of similar projects that put the control in the hands of the fans, but their timing both in the history of the band and Brian and the technology available was a bit too early for anything to happen.

I keep thinking too that a project like that would have avoided the tracklist and sequence issues because the fans would be buying a collection of tracks rather than an "album", and they could do whatever they wanted after owning the disc - that control was a marketing point. The burden was not on the producers to sequence something that "sounded good" versus simply getting the tracks out there.

With this 2011 project, I'd still prefer a chronological approach like some of the box sets and collections I own but it is Smile so I'll be happy to have it either way. But I think BWPS may be the albatross here: The sequencing was excellent on that album, IMO...so how do you avoid comparison to that sequence when it already set the bar so high? Or are some people waiting to pounce on the new sequence because it sounds too close to BWPS? It's going to be hard to separate the two if that is one of the intents of this set.

For the most part, those pieces still consisted of material written by Brian in '66, but given new arrangements. The 3rd movement opening is the "Cantina" bridge rearranged; (most of) the link between "The Child Is Father Of The Man" and "Surf's Up" is from the "Child" sessions with a little of "Surf's Up" thrown in. Perhaps you're already aware of this and still find it questionable, but I've heard complaints before from folks who thought these musical links were newly written by Darian or Von Mertens.

It's quite possible that some semblance of these links could end up on Disc 1 of THE SMiLE SESSIONS using the vintage recordings.

I'm curious to find out if they will close with You're Welcome.

Says who?

Interesting - I wasn't aware of that - thanks

I agree, I've always thought a comp of all the SMiLE recordings sequenced chronologically as recorded/mixed might be instructive but I've always been too lazy to do it.

The music and sequencing of Movement 2 on BWPS is absolutely beautiful and breathtaking. I remember being floored the first time I heard the RFH Premier show. It will be hard to improve upon it this time around.

There is a scene on the BWPS DVD showing Brian and Darian going over a Pro Tools session file where Darian has taken recordings of the original SMiLE as a blue print for sequencing.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm questioning the assertion that they are going to use the BWPS sequence with the original tracks on the upcoming Box Set.

I recall that scene from the DVD but I don't think they ever suggested that the original Smile provided "a blue print for sequencing". Rather, it provided music and then Darian and Brian sequenced it. And, in many ways, they sequenced it based on a fairly long history of the tracks being sequenced elsewhere, like GV Box Set and canonical fan mixes. That being said, they did manage to come up with a sequence that, I think, was unique and entirely logical.

I agree. There may have never been an intended sequence anyway. If you haven't finished recording
everything, you probably only have still forming ideas about the final sequence.

If Sgt pepper had a different sequence, and the lead vocals were missing on two songs, would
it affect the quality and listening experience. Somewhat.


Albums are made all the time, where the original scope or intent in not fully realized. Intended overdubs
or songs never got used. Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane were both intended for Sgt Pepper but didin't
end up on the album. Why do people feel they know better than Mark Linett or the Beach Boys how to
assemble SMiLE, they are the only people that even know what pieces they have to work with.How can you
second guess them when you don't even know what they have to work with. Haven't even heard what they
are doing yet.

Reminds me of the nice "Project SMiLE" interactive CD-ROM that was floating around fan circles a few years ago.

I've not checked this, am working from memory and thus stand to be corrected, but my recollection of that is that it was nothing more than Was saying it'd be a nice idea, like the TR-i stuff, and that was the end of it.

For me, having my own SMiLE comp has nothing to do with second-guessing Brian, or Mark and Alan, and it's not about "knowing better" either. But SMiLE has been "public domain" for so long that the fans have kind of taken ownership of it. SMiLE has become a very personal, and individual, experience -- not about being "right" but about how you like to listen to it. I can't wait to hear how they assemble and sequence Disc One, and I expect to like it and listen to it -- but if it also inspires me to tinker with my own SMiLE comp (which hasn't changed in a decade), that just adds to the fun.

It was in Pulse magazine, the Brian/Van Dyke cover story issue, November 1995. The Don Was interview appeared as a sidebar to the main article, and Domenic Priore also had a Smile history sidebar as well.

The Was sidebar said that Todd Rundgren and Don Was were encouraging Brian to put the 36-odd hours of Smile tapes onto CD-ROM. That was the only mention of the CD-rom idea.

Was at that time was working as the Beach Boys and Brian's producer-of-the-moment, so I might weigh something more heavily if he were saying it at the same time he was charged with recording new material and had the documentary out there as well - at that time he had Brian's ear but obviously we don't know how far that idea went in the pipeline. That is the only appearance of that CD-rom news that I can recall too, apart from news of a "Smile Era" box set before this.

Exactly! Imagine that with the Smile tapes in higher quality direct from the vaults...an awesome possibility.

Yeah, somebody could take all the tracks from the upcoming Smile box (the best quality versions available) and do the same thing. If they're not happy with the sequence, then do a little cut and paste and make their own damn SMiLE!

It's worth noting the Was-Rundgren CD-rom potentially had 36 hours of Smile sessions to play with...36 hours!  ;D

I actually still have that CD. Wonderful thing, even if a bit outdated nowadays.

My friend spoke to Todd himself about this a few years ago and he said that he had put together the program/cd-rom (likely using already existing TR-i infrastructure) for the Smile thing then the BB/BW people decided against the idea. But he did say he listened to it that way personally....I guess the conversation started because my friend had asked if he had ever compiled a Smile edit not knowing about this project.

Thanks for that - I stand corrected.

Holy sh*t-the end of the world really MUST be coming!  ;D

RAPTURE!

Can't wait for Fab Five Freddie...

I'm kinda excited for the rapture. Jesus seams like a cool cat. :P

BWPS runs just over 45 minutes, so technically even that would fit on one LP. I can't imagine that we get anything longer than that on disc 1.

This from a Mr. Rom92 at the Hoffman board re: the artwork:

"In speaking with Frank Holmes, i know even he is unsure of its inclusion - but he is hopeful.
Please be aware that he isn't quite at liberty to discuss these matters, so please don't go flooding him with messages about the artwork's inclusion by the dozens... for the sake of the project, and also just out of sheer courtesy."

So perhaps the original artwork is not 'in the bag' just yet, although from VDP's interviews I was under the impression it was.

VDP's using Frank art on one of the 45s he's releasing soon -  could that be what he was referring to?  Haven't seen/heard (or taken in) that ref in the interview.

The other thing is that Movement 2 is just under 11 minutes, but with 3 movements, it needed it's own album side.

Also, it's more common practice these days to put a lot less material on a side of vinyl to ensure better fidelity for those who treasure the format. U2's most recent vinyl issue of THE JOSHUA TREE came out as a double LP with only three tracks (or less) per side.

I had not heard of this until now. That's an album I remember as one of the last "new release" vinyls people around me were buying before cassettes and CD's took over in force among us. The configuration sounds a bit extreme but I understand the sonic reasons behind it: Does it cost significantly more and are people buying it in that format?

No, VDP was talking about the Smile box, not his 45s.  The statement was in his interview with Record Collector magazine.

"I'm delighted it's finally coming out. I haven't seen the finished product, but I've been told it's beautiful, that as much thought as gone into it as there is the creation of a Fabergé egg. I understand it exploits the work of Frank Holmes [ an artist who also contributes to one of Parks forthcoming sleeves] who did the first SMiLE cover. I first met him in 1962, and I've always admired him. Frank's work deserves triangulated equality with Brian's and mine on SMiLE, that is a fact so I am delighted that this man is finally going to be honoured at long last. He's never been a rich man; he had to work as an usher at a theater so he could afford to go and see Brian perform SMiLE  a few years ago. That is reprehensible."


I think that it's a pretty safe bet that the prototype/mock-up box that VDP and others (e.g., the Record Store Day team) have apparently seen DOES use the Holmes art.
The Capitol art department may have (and indeed probably has) designed packaging with the Holmes art even before everything is worked out legally (though obviously it would be awesome if it's a done deal).

I am referring to the deluxe 180 gram vinyl edition which now retails on Amazon for $33.99. Personally, I wouldn't think the sound quality improvement would warrant paying three times what you would pay for the CD version, but I guess it has value as a collectible. I have no idea what the sales have been like, but I've seen several copies (along with other double LP issues from other artists) in chain stores that don't normally cater to the collector crowd, so there must be some interest.

Can't help but notice he's being equivocal in his phrasing: "I haven't seen the finished product, but I've been told it's beautiful, that as much thought as gone into it as there is the creation of a Fabergé egg. I understand it exploits the work of Frank Holmes...". Clearly, when that interview was conducted, he'd seen exactly diddly.

But then went on to see the mock-up at a later date

Didn't someone else make a Faberge egg reference.

VDP has said it at least 3 times now. Not sure if someone else has said it as well.

And, yes, at the time of the Record Collector interview VDP indicated that he hadn't seen the prototype yet, but in the interview last weekend he indicated that he had seen it.  And he seems to be sticking with the Faberge egg analogy.

Its weird that every time I read a VDP quote I hear it in his voice.

Will the vinyl be egg-shaped?

It will be interesting to see whether Boyd & Linett try & rearrange the old tracks a la BWPS or they simply sequence the older stuff "as is."

My understanding was that that even the 1988 (I think) tape box stuff was largely compiled and pieced together by Mark Linett, as was stuff on the GV box set. If that's the case then perhaps something closer to BWPS should be in order.

What I find consistent about BWPS and the project in general is the idea of the pun. Frank Holmes has made mention of, and pointed out, the visual pun in his SMiLE artwork. Van Dyke Parks wrote pun filled lyrics for SMilE. And the musical sequencing for SMiLE often had the ending of one song becoming the beginning of another song sometimes in a slightly different way. In this fashion there is a musical pun....one thing becomes something else.

Heck the idea of dominoes is like this. Each domino has two values.

Or rather, I should say, one ting is, at the same time, something else.

Uhh, This would mean that you know the original SMiLE sequence;  I mean how else would you know that " the musical sequencing for SMiLE often had the ending of one song becoming the beginning of another song" ?  
Finally!  The person who's been entrusted with "The Vision". I'm glad it's you, Bill.

Domenic Priore has been onto this since day one. His track sequencing was largely based upon how one track flowed flawlessly into the next.

That's what I mean by a musical pun.

And all this see see and done done & pun stuff was to get you to pick up onto the two in the one. Dig?

These little triggers were to indicate that there are two layers of meaning in SMiLE. Pet Sounds is on one level but SMiLE is on two levels.

Crap, here we go again.

Actually, we don't - I've been there, read the 'guide' book, had a laugh, moved on.

If you define a pun as vaguely as "one thing that becomes something else" then I suppose you could call just about anything a pun. I'm sorry but "the ending of one song becoming the beginning of another song" is nothing like what a pun is supposed to do.

No he wasn't. Dom Priore's tracklist is based on pretty much what anyone's Smile tracklist was based on - their own opinion based on the limited evidence of boots. Dom just had a rather inflated sense of his own opinion. I mean, do you really suppose She's Goin' Bald was supposed to be on SMiLE?

Have to disagree with you on this, Bill. Hypehat is right- Priore's sequence was the proper sequence- to him. He didn't have the absolute correct answers (and he famously declared the use of link tracks as necessity. Which is absurd, because everyone involved has said this wasn't so).  You can pretty much make a case for just about any SMiLE track flowing flawlessly into another. I've heard a million different tracklistings, and pretty much all of them made sense.

Andrew B. Doe said
You are a freakin' genius Andrew.

Hypehat & A Million Units:

Sorry if I didn't explain my comment well. All I was pointing out was that Domenic valued the flow from one track into another. BWPS did the same.

When the rhythm stays the same and the tools from the workshop turn into the percussion of Vegetables--this is what I mean by a musical pun. Or the end of Wonderful becomes the beginning of Song For Children. Same idea.

When the moon is in the 7th house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars.  Same idea

That's correct bgas. You got it right.

Bill, do you know the meaning of the word "disingenuous" ?

This is what you actually said:

"Domenic Priore has been onto this since day one. His track sequencing was largely based upon how one track flowed flawlessly into the next.
That's what I mean by a musical pun... And all this see see and done done & pun stuff was to get you to pick up onto the two in the one. Dig ? These little triggers were to indicate that there are two layers of meaning in SMiLE. Pet Sounds is on one level but SMiLE is on two levels."

That's correct Andrew. Domenic's concern with ending of one track vis a vis the beginning of the following track is like a pun. It leads you down one road only to be also a different road, the same music has two different meanings.

That's not saying that Domenic's track line-up is perfect. It's just to point out that his appreciation of that track to track quality could also be seen on BWPS and fits into the pun idea.

Also Andrew, I was not being disingenuous.

The more unlikely or ‘far-fetched’ the...more unexpected and impressive the achievement!!!

God, I wish you guys would just fucking fight already.

Andrew apparently read Watts' The Joyous Cosmology & dismissed the whole thing. That book was the one Bob Hanes claimed Brian had requested prior to his dabbling with SMiLE & BWPS. Bob felt the book had significance SMiLE-wise.

The deal was that Andrew was going to tell folks what the book was about, but apparently that part of the deal fell through.

The book is about the LSD experience. Watts describes a number of experiences as best he can using words. Timothy Leary & Ram Das wrote the intro.

The whole point of this was to give a more accurate picture of the times & environment from which SMiLE arose.

No, but really, that's nothing like a pun.

I hereby demand satisfaction, in Trafalgar Square, UK. At a date meeting Mr. Tobelman's schedule, to be settled by PM. ;D

A mod hoping for an argument.

You gotta love this place

Bill you really really need to place a mirror next to your bed and wake up to yourself!

blah blah blah

The "Wingman" has spoken. 90% of your post's are blah blah blah!

Just out of curiosity. What percentage of these arguments and disagreements.
About the intended running order, and link tracks, and the double meanings
will be resolved by the actual release of the box set.

In other words. Will many of these issues be settled once and for all, or will
people keep to their prior positions regardless of what is in the box set, and
how it is assembled.

18th of May said:

First off--I really like the mirror reference. It's very SMiLE era stuff. The "mirror of the mind" and hypnosis & things of this nature were on Brian's mind at the time (Koestler even mentions Plotinus & the mirror(or is it plot-in-us?)).

I'm honestly not trying to con people or spread non truths. I've placed hundreds of quotes online over the years & I promise they are all accurate and not taken out of context. Feel free to put each & every one of them to the test.

I've asked various people over the years if I should stop in the pursuit of this viewpoint (as it might cause problems for certain people). Typically I received either no response or was told "no way, keep going." But just so you know, efforts were made in that direction.

One thing that's I have found that's of great interest is a Michael Vosse quote about Brian's SMiLE era viewpoint on laughter.

What's really cool is the "their connection with the thing that was making them laugh" part.

So then, if the thing that is making you laugh is the discovery of a spiritual experience---then you're 'open' to having a similar experience.

I love it! You throw a dig at the guy and he turns it into a deeply symbolic metaphor in the context of Smile.

I can give you an absolutely exact answer to that question: 0%.


Consider the very recent example of the (non-)Rapture. Despite the very obvious explanation, some folk were saying that the delay in it occurring was just a further test of their faith. You can't tell someone something they don't want to hear.

"You can't tell someone something they don't want to hear."  Isn't that what your Dad use to say, AGD?  You know, I use that one on my girlfriend sometimes. I think it works. 

As far as the Smile running order and link tracks - at least that number is finite. The double meanings aren't.

Is it wrong to say the very notion of an organized Smile tracklist and order was a fantasy from the first time the idea was published? There was the handwritten tracklist from Peter Reum's collection that got published but there was no specific order to it, and every sequence which came from that was someone's speculation. It's just odd how ideas snowball so much through the years that they become fodder for debate with not many hard facts to debate other than a list of song titles.

vs 100% of yours.

You guys are a couple of fucking children.

Finally someone that makes sense. I thought it was me going crazy.

I wonder how many people STILL don't believe that that little snippet on Endless Harmony (and was eventually fully realized and released) is "I'm In Great Shape"...

What snippet?  Is it on vinyl?

Aging country singer Kenny Rogers is totally correct on this! Who would have known that he would be so much of a BB fan / historian???

Going back a few pages, I am a little dismayed to see in the interview with Brian that he has "disapproved" some material. If it is anything that has been unofficially released, fine. But if it is ONE IOTA of any previously unheard musical fragment, that will be a crying shame and the set will be somewhat "compromised" IMO. :(

Well who knows. I'd hope that if it was any unbooted material of major significance, Brian would be strongly dissuaded from disapproving it as it will be a major selling point to hardcore fans like us.

If it's some of the more throwaway material such as the skits, or george fell into his french horn or the Rock With Me Henry version of Wonderful, then I can live with that.

I think we have to be realistic that not absolutely every recorded second of the Smile sessions are going to make it onto this release.

Also, would it not be a shame if Brian had no input into this release?

Well, to me, having HQ (and maybe more "complete"= more overdubs) versions of already booted material like Holidays, Barnyard, Child is father to the man or Look is important, so I hope he didn't disapprove any of these ! >:(

IMHO, it's Brian's music from the ground up and he can do what he damn well likes with it.

Yeah, I have to agree.  At this point, it seems highly unlikely that some mind-blowing gem is going to be left off on the whim of Brian Wilson.  I'm sure that if Brian strongly resisted inclusion of such a piece, the folks in charge of the project would make every effort to change his mind... even if that meant calling in his wifeandmanagers or bribing him with food or something.  ;)

Of course, if something major IS excluded, I guess we can all start pining away for Smile box 2.0.    :lol

Well, Brian already trashed gems ... Look what he's done to SMiLE in 66/67  ;D

Rock With Me Henry is my favourite version of Wonderful. I'll be very sad if it's not on there, still, the SOT version is pretty good quality.

Just goes to show that one mans' wonderful is another mans' summer in paradise

I don't even think that the "He gives speeches" segment was supposed to be on SMiLE, and I'm still using it in all of my own mixes!

Really Iron Horse-Apples?  Rock With Me Henry is your favourite version of Wonderful?  No disrespect, but I'm with Buddahat on this one.  Wonderful is one of my faves from Smile and the first time I heard the Rock With Me Henry version I was shocked at how it ruined such a pure and beautiful song.  I love Brian's experimentations but I feel like he realized that it just didn't fit with the vibe of the song and that is why it has never officially surfaced.  I was surprised that the SOT folks put it as the representative version of wonderful on the the single disc smile set.  Don't get me wrong I am happy to have heard it and i would be happy for it to be on the box set but I hope it doesn't make it onto the first disc of the 2 cd set.

But you are right the different stokes for different folks.  I have a soft spot for several BB / BW songs that others can't stand (Saturday Morning In The City and Make It Big are two examples of my guilty pleasures and I could name dozens more that many BB/BW fans have mocked me for enjoying...)

So what you are asking for is every single second of the Smile Sessions??????

I'll second that! Every cough and chair squeak on those tapes, I want it! ;D

Well it ain't gonna happen

I was being as serious with that request as if I had requested they cut up the master tape reels into small pieces and sell them as limited edition collectibles suitable for framing. And for an extra charge, Mark Linett could autograph the individual tape pieces in grease pencil as he slices them up...numbered 1 to 2011.

Are you serious!!!! I think that's as likely as posting a humourous remark on here and not recieving a condescending reply from someone.

otm fishmonk. i've never seen 18thofMay post anything relevant in any thread he makes an appearance in. always appreciate reading your thoughts however. keep taking the high road and dont fall in with the dregs.


also wanted to address the issue of rock with me henry wonderful, it's brute force dada - the only similarity between his reappropriated "readymade" of the original dance with me henry and wonderful is the sexual innuendo. maybe that's the point of this awkward juxtoposition. that's also why it works for me in smile. smile is dada(or zen?  :wink) in its gratuitous reappropriation of standards into new and unexpected forms.

Or you could see it simply as Brian experimenting with a different musical avenue - the jazzy, more intricate arrangement of that version - rather than any more knowing spiritual aspect? I think this is a crucial difference in our (including Bill and Fishmonk's) opposing viewpoints. I tend to view Brian as a more musical than a literate or intellectual kind of guy. He never seemed to spend much time either away from his piano or out of the studio, after all, and he spent a lot of time altering the arrangements of SMilLE material - Heroes chants, two separate Wonderful's, Vegetables, and more, but the lyrics rarely changed.

I wouldn't put much 'intellectualism' stock in a guy who says the thing he most enjoyed about France was the bread~

when did he say that? '64? brian was exposed to so many new ideas after he made that statement. i would venture that he accumulated a profound majority of his intelectual growth in the time leading up to smile. people can change dramatically over even the smallest amount of time...especially when in pursuit of enlightenment.

i put alot of intellectual stock in the guy.

Agree on that one.  Some of fishmonk's other critics are sincere, and definitely offer good counterpoints.  But 18th of May just needs to be ignored, as he seems to offer nothing but one-line insults.  Fishmonk, you have nothing to gain by responding to him.

French bread is awesome. Brian is right about that.

I think that reading Arthur Koestler is a very intellectual thing to do & so Brian gets kudos for that too.

It's interesting when Brian gives his "intellectual" explanation of the "Surf's Up" lyrics to Jules Siegel & Co.. It's very much in line with Koestler's documenting of the famous Night Journey motif (or the Death & Rebirth motif for those who remember my claim that "Surf's Up" is an ego death song).

Oh yeah, I love the orchestration of the Rock With Me Henry "Wonderful." That music blends seamlessly into "Look."

Thought that "Henry" might have been studio engineer Henry Lewy who was holding discussion classes that Brian was attending (apparently about spiritual matters). Not that I want to suggest that there is potentially another level of meaning going on any kind of spiritual level or anything.

I am not going to say that Brian reads War and Peace in Russian, but when he gets interested in something he investigates it deeply. He developed an interest in Native American culture and when I told my adopted sister was Native American by birth, he asked some very informed questions about Southwestern tribes. It was apparent to me that there were certain things which he had investigated deeply on his own, such as the history of music, astronomy, and certain spiritual traditions and ideas. He was also conversant in psychology, especially in some of the tpoics surrounding the effect of alcohol dependence on families.

just bought a paperback copy of act of creation from ebay! looks pretty amazing from what i've read about it. thanks for the french breadcrumb, mr tobelman.

Did Brian sip red wine and read Proust in the evenings? No. But I don't find it hard to believe that Brian read some books, understood the crux of the arguments they contained, and was influenced by those ideas as he planned SMiLE. I mean, lets face it, many of the books that we're talking about were written for the layman, they aren't rocket science. A lot of "psychedelic philosophy" books that were coming out in the 60s weren't dense 1000+ page Hegalian tomes, my copy of the Joyous Cosmology is less than 100 pages and includes pictures. A lot of this was aimed at your average person interested in separating the truth of LSD from media rumors and I would never describe any of these books as intellectual heavy lifting. We know Brian was reading this stuff, and there are pretty clear parallels between the content of these books and comments Brian has made about SMiLE. And to me, that's all there is to it.

It seems like an open and shut case, trying to explain these influences away by saying "oh well he wasn't REALLY interested in that" seem disingenuous. Yes, Brian sometimes went off on his own little whims and entertained a lot of little ideas, but I don't think you can take every influence you don't like and bust it down into the "whim" category along with 24 Hour Ping Pong Table Store.

I don't think Brian was some brilliant game-changing prodigy philosopher, but that's hugely different from just believing that he picked up on some ideas from a few pop-science/religion books he read.

Whether or not he has the ethical & artistic (never mind legal) right to do whatever he wants with it and whether or not it's a shame if he vetoes anything that we haven't heard strike me as two separate issues. He doesn't get to decide for us what level of investment, connection and wonder each of us has with this material, although I want to take this opportunity to thank him for going into this uncharted musical territory, at great personal cost.

Another view that strikes me is that one might say that at some point Smile was like an abandoned stepchild, and true believers kept its spirit and dream alive with our fervent worship of it, motivating him, with his wife and band's support, to assemble, perform & record BWPS, and then, whan we were still unsatiated, to give this project a reason to exist, to the point where we can almost claim part "ownership" of this music, since he renounced it for so long, and that we should be rewarded by being allowed to hear everything we want to hear.

That being said, if he did reject some material, (hopefully just that with either drug references or some of the "Smile-era party" type of stuff, and things that have already been heard), we can assume that it is still emotionally loaded for him, even after the catharsis of BWPS, or that he and his wife may have felt that something was inappropriate. If the former is the case, he deserves to be spared whatever pain might be caused by anything being released that brings back particularly bad memories for him.

Just ruminating here. There is arguably no other album that has inspired this level of passion in its listeners, and while it may be ethically correct to conclude that it's his music and he can do whatever he wants with it, there may be more to this particular case than that, from an ethical standpoint. I imagine I'm going to get a dismissive response from you, AGD, but so be it. As Ashe says in "Alien", I'm still collating.... ???

You imagine wrong.  ;D  Here's my rationale: Brian won't veto any of the 'major' tracks (i.e. anything that on BWPS) because he doesn't have a leg to stand on. They're already out there. He may veto parts of the sessions for those songs (I for one can't see the "do you feel the acid yet ?" bit surviving) but those tracks are safe. As for the 2nd tier stuff, such as the chants and arguments, I can understand his not wanting some of those out (and hell, we have them already). Finally, I have the utmost confidence that if BW did say "no" to anything significant, old or new, either Mark, Alan or A. N. Other would gently but firmly persuade him of the necessity for including it, even possibly using the "actually, that's been out on bootlegs for two decades, Brian, it's even on YouTube (or was)" tack. We'll not miss anything new of interest.

I prefer the sound of the harpsichord, it has a lot more depth to it, and yes I think the brushed snares work really well. It's not finished or even mixed at all, and I'll bet those drums would have been down in the mix had it been worked on more.

The whole thing sounds like it was meant to have a  lot more dubs put on it, and that snippet of Carl's sleepy vocal is so tantalising, before they wandered out for a spliff never to return.

And yes, I too love Saturday Morning In The City - a SMiLE melody if ever there was one. I think with a lot of Brian's 80's and 90's stuff you have to hear past the shoddy Landy Pandy production to the gems that are so often there. There are some great BW songs on Sweet Insanity, but it's hard to get past that production.

I hope you're right Andrew. I still wish "Let Him Run Wild" was on the GV box set.

As far as Brian & books go there is the matter of personal interest which attracts one to certain subjects: you're interested in a subject so you read about it.

But in the competitive world-wide social change intellectual climate of pop in the mid sixties Brian appears to have been using books to help him compete. On the other hand Brian was being introduced to new realm of sensibilities and possibilities by friends as well as his own personal experiences and his choice of reading material reflected this as well.

Then there's the matter of what one "pick's up on" from the stuff they read. Reading The Joyous Cosmology may be a totally different experience for one who has taken LSD then for one who hasn't taken LSD. It likely would be a different read for a philospher than a follower. A lot of what one takes from literature depends on where they're coming from.

If anyone has been lucky enough to see Inside Pop: The Rock Revolution TV program they will likely notice that there are two languages being spoken, one by one generation & the other by another. What likely separates these generations besides age & life experiences is also the drug experience (at least in this TV program). That's not to say every younger person was trying these new drugs by any means....but the folks chosen for this rock music documentary (for the most part) seem to have this quality. Perhaps David Oppenheim purposely sought out such people for his film. In any case it is apparent that one side does not understand where the other is coming from...words don't seem to have the ability to bridge the gap.

What I'm trying to say is that it's important to try and keep things in perspective when reading stuff & applying it to SMiLE. Perhaps I'm wrong for doing this, or my assumptions regarding the past are incorrect or out of focus, but that's the tact I've taken and one I'd encourage others to take.

2011 Brian is a very different person from 1993 Brian. Back then it took a week of gentle but increasingly firm persuasion to get him to agree to the inclusion of any original Smile material whereas as his attitude towards Capitol's proposal for The Smile Sessions when pitched was along the lines of "hell, why not ?".

Thanks for the response Iron Horse Apples,
I'll give the RWMH version of Wonderful another spin or two with less prejudiced ears...
Hopefully the new box set will give several different satisfying versions of Wonderful (and all the others) to wrap our ears and minds around.

Apparently he's a very different person than he was in 2004 as well...I remember him saying then something along the lines of "Hell will have to freeze over before I let Capitol release the original SMiLE tapes".

When he was being interviewed about BWPS in 2004, USA Today asked him about releasing the BB tapes, and here's what he said: "Never. Those are gone forever. I don't want those made public because they bring up bad memories. I don't think about the old days anymore. I never do."

There was also a press conference from around this time where a reporter asked about the original SMiLE sessions and David Leaf responded that they'll probably come out eventually; Brian, who was sitting next to Leaf at the time, didn't blink an eye.

Steak & birthday cake.  ;)

With Brian releasing his own version of Smile, I doubt that he was very interested in talking about, let alone releasing the Beach Boys version of Smile. Releasing the Beach Boys version 7 years later is not an issue anymore. Plus, I think Brian is in a better way now with Smile. The demons have been lifted over time.

I agree. If anyone is interested, I put together some thoughts on Brian, BWPS and the upcoming Smile Sessions, covering much of this territory - here:

http://partofmysum.blogspot.com/2011/04/celebrating-brian-wilsons-2004-smile.html

Thanks for your article. Very thoughtful & well done.

When I hear incomplete Beach Boys versions of the material these days I fill in the missing vocals parts (in my mind) with the BWPS notes & lyrics.

Fine, fine article. The early 2000s 'breakdown' fits perfectly with the touring schedule, and may have significant implications in his decision to do BWPS.

Yep really nice article - I love BWPS and for me it is the finished Smile - that said and despite my respect for Brians live band I still believe the 66 tracks are superior

I'm pretty sure with this Mojo magazine coming June 15th, the news is going to start rolling out soon after that

Has this not been the worst wait ever

In the advert for the forthcoming SMiLE article in Mojo, they promise
to fill us in on the details, I would think that probably includes a tracklist.
Or at least a description of some of the tracks that will be included.

But here's the thing, does the tracklist even exist yet in concrete form
is it finalized. I'm surprised there aren't more leaks about content.

It was worse in 96 or 97 or whenever when I read in Rolling Stone that the box was coming out (with a street date) and then...nothing. at least now there are a few dribs and drabs to grab onto.