The Smiley Smile Message Board

i've been lurking here for a while, but i've grown to greatly value some alternative perspectives from a few folks here, (the esteemed tobelman and not as esteemed fishmonk lol...i will make no apologies, i love those guys! they present another truth to the mystery of SMiLE.) many times those folks are unfairly derided or not even listened to, for some of their important contributions or for just being themselves; i dont see how anyone could listen to smile, or read "catch a wave" and not come to the same conclusions?!!  So YES, Im a firm believer in tobelman's spiritual enlightment teleology/zen interpretation of SMiLE!
It would be cool if tobelman's views were represented in the official release but in the interest of non-disclosure he will play his part from the fringe as im sure he's resigned to do so.  truth is not for everyone, but for the initiated, who listen. sometimes we are simply messengers, without reason, performing the Great Work. BW was aware of this when he dreamed of his halo and his invocation of light during the PET SOUNDS recordings.

so today is the celebration of the resurrection of christ(found in all of us), and i was thinking about a gnostic interpretation of Pet Sounds (Pistis Sophia).

as above(god-love) so below(romantic love).

almost every song is about love/yearning for unity(or reunification) with another spirit or the all. this is pure, spiritual expression and the key to understanding the album as sonic alchemy :-D

the following will refer to god a number of times. when i use this term it should be read as the gnostic concept of the "pleroma" and not some old bearded white dude:

WOULDN'T IT BE NICE - to have a chemical marriage and realise our destiny, to return from whence we came?
YOU STILL BELIEVE IN ME - we are leaving the fullness of god(again), Ein Sof awaits us with unimaginable love and unwavering faith that we will return.
THATS NOT ME - the soul's declaration of independence & descent into the world of matter. every incarnation is a learning experience that moves us closer to god
DONT TALK - meditation/prayer/repose on divine love and heartbeat of creation. how we connect with the universal mind
I'M WAITING FOR THE DAY - the LOGOS, eternal love even when we turn our back.
LETS GO AWAY FOR AWHILE ...
SLOOP JOHN B - this song is very important to the story arc, its a day in the life of our earthly confines. we desire to hoist up our sails and go home.
GOD ONLY KNOWS - love completes us, gives us reason
LGOYE/HOTYE/IKTAA - ego is an earthly construct. you will lose the fight eventually. thats why we practice meditation, to prepare for next stage of life.
HERE TODAY - dark night of the soul, but our desire for love & connection will persevere, no matter the consequences.
IJWMFTT - haven't we all felt like a stranger here once?
PET SOUNDS (Run James Run) - is this for a james bond movie as brian said was its original intention? or is he referring to James the Just, brother of jesus? i suppose he had to run from the romans...it was documented that James was stoned which would fit with brian's mindset at the time.
CAroline, NO - Carol Mountain was the inspiration. Go tell it on the mountain, that Jesus Christ is born.

Has this been discussed elsewhere? i wouldnt mind reading some thoughts.

Thanks

I distinctly felt my leg being pulled just then...   ;D

:lol indeed.
_____

In all seriousness though: Does anyone have any concrete information on Brian's religious life during his youth? And also during Pet Sounds and Smile?

I know he held prayer sessions with his brothers, and talked about a form of God in interviews, but did he ever talk about his "religion" in-depth?

(I've read books on Brian Wilson/The Beach Boys and have searched threads, but I've only found very basic information on this subject)

Brian was raised a Presbyterian - used to attend Mesa Angeles (or some such) church. As for his leanings during the mid sixties, it was pretty well whatever anyone told him about, although a hugely reliable source has informed that his main 'religion du jour' (their phrase) during said span was Subud.

Thanks for the info. Quite odd - I wonder where (or from whom) he picked up Subud.

that is hugely interesting, thanks. Lorren Daro must have turned him on to that then?

I must not be initiated yet.

To be fair, it was the instant belief of choice for a few stars in those days - John Phillips & Roger McGuinn spring instantly to mind.

It would seem Brian had a genuine interest in spirituality from a young age hence the tendency to have a 'religion du jour'.  

Although its a philosophy and not a religion, David was raised to follow the teachings of the Rosicrucian Fellowship and its still the closest thing he has to a practicing religion today. Brian was very interested in Jo Ann Marks and her beliefs in metaphysics back in the late 50's - mid 60's and he did study the Cosmo Conception under her guidances and would call her in the middle of the night to ask her spiritual questions.  

Jo Ann was also a psychic whose abilities came from psychometry - which is the ability to pick up vibrations from an object to read its energy and Brian was fascinated by this...she once predicted he would be signed to Capitol Records before he even wrote his first song. The Marks' astrologer / spiritual councilor was a women name J'Nevelyn Terrell - who later became Brian's astrologer during the PS / Smile era.

Thanks Carrie! Love the Good Vibrations connection. Do you know if David was ever a part of any religious bull-sessions with Brian? I'd love to be a fly-on-the-wall during his religious discussions.

Thank you Carrie! So Brian was exposed to Rosicrucianism?! If he has read the Cosmo Conception or any of Heindel's work, I'm confident that he was almost certainly aware of what he was doing with Pet Sounds (even if he isn't so much nowadays). he was in tune and transmitting. his inner flame was alit!

So perhaps I'm on to something with my interpretation, as rough as it is. i just dont have the skill to impress that feeling into words. I have read the cosmo conception, as well as some of his other work, and i encourage brian wilson fans to do the same, and then listen to pet sounds again  :-D

Fun:  I don't know if he read the Cosmo Conception cover to cover, but he was definitely exposed to Rosicrucianism in his late teens.

Rab: Being that many years younger than Brian, David was dis-interested at best - embarrassed at worst when it came to his mother and her progressive thinking for the 1950's so he didn't participate in any deep discussion with Brian and Jo Ann.  He later embraced Rosicrucianism on his own in the late 60's when he was working on The Moon. Matt Moore, his partner on the project, was also influenced by Max Heindel.

Asher said that there was no concrete concept plan for the album (rather it just came together, probably subconsciously). There was certainly a spiritual undertone, but as for Brian planning such a religious album (and being aware of it) - well, I highly doubt that that is the case. Asher says that he and Brian mostly talked about girls...hence half the songs are about relationships, two are instrumentals, one about a boat trip, and the rest are about Brian fitting in and trying to get people to see things his way.

Ah, I forgot about the age factor. I'm definitely going to order the Cosmo Conception soon.

It must have indeed peeved Brian to be mostly writing songs about surfing and cars when his interests were nearly 180 degrees opposite of that (spirituality, astronomy, astrology, etc). I think Timothy White's book went into detail about how Brian wanted to compose more Bacharach/Gershwin style music - but got pegged into writing surf tunes - thus he eventually combined the two to make a completely different type of music.

Ah, the old, old canard - Brian wrote surf & car tunes then broke free and out of nowhere came Pet Sounds.

Last surf song - "Don't Back Down", recorded April 29th 1964.

Last car song - "This Car Of Mine", recorded February 7th 1964 (or if I'm feeling generous, "I Get Around", recorded April 2nd 1964)

Brian wasn't 'mostly writing songs about surfing and cars', except for two, maybe three albums in 1963.

I wasn't talking about Brian's mid-60s Today!/Pet Sounds period. I was reiterating Timothy Whites thoughts on the early Beach Boys period - based on Carrie Marks saying that "Brian had a genuine interest in spirituality from a young age" - thus including the surf/car period.

"Nothing was turning out as he had planned. Brian always imagined he would become a songsmith at the top end of the popular idiom, composing in a vague nether zone somewhere between broadway and hit-parade, and hollywood; between George and Ira Gershwin's "Summertime" and the Four Freshmen's Voices in Modern......now, as a result of the cocky outbursts of his brother Dennis he was now something called a Beach Boy. But Brian wasn't into surfing..."

- Timothy White, The Nearest Faraway Place

I think if it 'peeved' him so much, he'd have moved on from the subject a lot quicker than he did, and not written so many cracking tunes on those topics. Sure, he wrote car/surf songs, but by early '64 he was done with that and even in 1963 was coming up with more spiritual material such as "In My Room", "The Lonely Sea" (I know, Gary Usher claimed it was mostly his) and "Your Summer Dream".

Good Point. But with Murry in control for most of that time I can see why he wasn't able to easily break away from the formula. However, your most likely right: he loved the fame and loved seeing his songs fly up the charts. However, White does make it sound like Brian had more in mind than Billboard fame....I'd love to see where White got this idea from.

I missed this, somehow:Usher claimed Lonely Sea as mostly his?  While he's not here to argue it, He's always struck me as over-reaching/ over claiming based on what he did.  Lots of smoke, but too much trying to take Brian's credit for me.

Getting back to Subud, there are some hard facts and evidence out there which supports Brian's involvement with Subud. Or at least some evidence he was surrounded by it. I know some people here already saw it but on another forum I copied/pasted an old newspaper gossip blurb from the Smile era (late 66) which stated Brian was working on a religious composition for his group of friends called the "Subdubs". It's not unreasonable to assume the columnist erred and it should have read "Subuds", unless the group of friends was calling themselves "Subdubs" as a play on the word. If anyone wants to see it I'll gladly copy it here.

More telling is a piece of audio from the chanting material where Van Dyke Parks makes a joke using the word "Latihan". A Latihan in the study of Subud is the moment of enlightenment which the practice of that faith strives for, and at that time I'd imagine only those close to it would know that term enough to use it in a conversation (or a joke). So Van Dyke knew it, yet it sounds like Vosse was incredulous, and said "A WHAT?", to which Anderle repeated "a Latihan". Brian doesn't comment.

Van Dyke was traveling in those Hollywood circles in 1966 which were into studying Subud and it got to be kind of a hip course of study, much like TM after The Beatles became students and very publicly followed the Maharishi to India, along with of course Mike Love who was one of the few to hang on to the studies after many thought the Maharishi had been exposed as a fraud looking for high-income and high-profile stars to back him.

Even if he only dabbled in Subud for a short time and then moved on as he had done with TM, there is almost no doubt Brian was involved. To pinpoint it to one person, say Loren, Van Dyke, or even David Anderle or some unknown scenester who Brian was hanging with is a much tougher question to answer unless someone says who brought it into Brian's world. But in certain circles in LA in 1966 it was the thing to do.

Thanks guitarfool!

Utterly fascinating - all this stuff. If it isn't any trouble could you upload that newspaper blurb to this thread? I think it would add a lot.

What about Post-SMiLE - has Brian ever talked about what his spiritual interests were then. What books did he read (if any) while lying in bed?

No doubt whatsoever.

It's so interesting to connect the dots with words like "Latihan" - not that we'll ever get all the inside jokes and comments but it's worth the effort to see what's behind all of this.

Here is the newspaper clipping:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/12161966.jpg)

Is that "Latihan" reference on the Psychedelic Sounds boot? I try not to subject myself to that boot too often but I may have to in order to find this!

Also, another thing I found interesting: yesterday I was listening to Secret Smile, and the Vega-table argument started playing, towards the end of it Hal Blaine starts talking about how planets are going to be aligned that night and weird things are going to happen. Then Brian starts talking about how his dogs were acting weird - probably because of it the alignment. I wonder if Brian is still into astronomy today.

Priceless

Bohemia Grove was where it was at!

I saw this, as well, but noticed his name looks like "cut-in type". Wondering about the source for the scan.
Looked into Subud and see that the Latihan is like a candle flame that can be passed on to others.
If I remember correctly, Brian said something about changing "Fire" to lighting a candle.

found the reference:
“I don’t have to do a big scary fire like that. I can do a candle and it’s still fire. That would have been a really bad vibration to let out on the world, that Chicago fire. The next one is going to be a candle.”
– Brian Wilson from “Heroes And Villains” by Steven Gaines - 1986

I searched out the source of the scan, and found the reason it looks like "cut in type": when you do a search for say, Brian Wilson, on the Deseret site, it highlights the items found in yellow. That piece, highlighted in yellow, looks exactly like the scan you show( less the yellow color)

Original reference, "Goodbye Surfing Hello God", Jules Seigel, 1967.

There is no funny business with the scan - it is from Google News archives, and as Bgas says if you do a search there the name is highlighted in yellow like a hi-lighter pen, and I couldn't get a good scan without that highlighting. I copied the header from the top of the newspaper page and made a composite so the source was right there on top of the news item as one image file.

The Latihan may be considered a flame from a candle which is passed on but I think the more important definition is the "Latihan" is the ultimate goal for someone studying Subud, much like any other religion has that goal which you might strive for through prayer, meditation, study, service, or whatever other practices are a part of reaching that goal. The impression I get with the Latihan is that it is a very individual experience rather than a collective experience among the group, where perhaps one person's Latihan is vastly different from another yet they're both using the same path to get there.

I'd really welcome anyone's opinion here who has actually practiced Subud or studied it more in-depth, as I'm only going by what I've researched and read over time. The aspect of "passing it on" to others in Subud doesn't seem too far removed from other religions, since they need new members to keep the religion alive in the future and one of the goals is always to bring in new members and share the faith, and that seems to go across all denominations and individual faiths.

ok... thanks... do you have a link to it? When I tried a search I come up Deseret News in Utah, but nothing about this particular article.

I remembered what Brian said about the Fire being a bad vibe, and the "next one is going to be a candle" and it would make sense for him to say this if he was into Subud at the time. He was aware that what he put on record was going out into the world. The Opening in Subud is likened to the lighting of a candle within and that inner light can be passed on to others. Religion and spirituality are individual quests, but the ideas and experiences can be expressed... in Brian's case, it was through his music. I don't get a bad vibe from Fire, what I get is truth. Probably why he wanted to have a rebuilding after the Fire... so it wasn't destruction for destruction's sake. Just remembered what Carl said about Smiley Smile being a bunt. Maybe Smiley Smile is a candle. One way to look at it.


Thanks Andrew... I need to read that article.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qfQvAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W0gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7151,4270845&dq=brian-wilson&hl=en (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qfQvAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W0gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7151,4270845&dq=brian-wilson&hl=en)

Clicking on this link will take you right to the article with the highlighted name and all - and it's really just a quick sentence in the middle of a pop music gossip column, blink and you'll miss it kind of thing.

But it is pretty fascinating in context, and a part of Smile which I have never seen discussed elsewhere - that part about Brian possibly composing a piece of music for Subud as he was doing Smile.

Thanks!... and yes... especially considering the date of the article... at the tail end of the vocal recording sessions. The article does say that Brian has "turned devoutly religious as of late".

Question for Andrew... visited your site and I see recording sessions for vocals at Columbia in December, but some of those dates for vocal sessions fall on the same date as live shows in Seattle and San Francisco. Could those sessions be mock sessions or maybe mixdown sessions? Seems like this was a pivotal time, overall. Thanks.

See where, after the studio and session (that is, vocals) info, it says "[BW]" ?

Care to hazard a guess what those initials indicate ?  ;D

And I don't include mixdown sessions as the info to hand is hugely incomplete and sometimes contradictory (and if it comes via Badman, I don't trust it at all).

BeoWulf?

Do you have logged sessions on your list that have been questioned as to whether or not an actual session took place?

Who is Badman? Does he have a sidekick named Wobbin?

I thought BW was Brian Wilson, but bgas thinks it's Beowulf... but hmmmm let's see... um um um maybe it means Badman and Wobbin...

I was just looking at some chill time the last couple weeks of December in 66 where changes in direction may have taken hold. No big...

Badman, Keith, has written a hugely erroneous sessions book on the band. Like Brian's autobiography, not to be trusted unless you can find an more trustworthy source corrobating it's information.

it's a real person? I thought he was being sarcastic...  :) thanks I will stay away from that book.

The book's actually a diary format, 1917-1976: the concert info is far more inaccurate than the sessions stuff.  To be fair, it gives you a good overview, but the fine details are very questionable in places.


If there's anything slightly dubious about a session's date, if it was indeed the BB, or it it actually took place at all, that's noted somewhere. An example:

1972
August 31 - Holland session: Leaving This Town [Baambrugge] [9]

Footnote [9] says:

Although these session dates are clearly incompatible with the established concert dates,  this is what the AFM sheets say, and they are included for reference: the best guess is that  someone is misremembering by a month or so as most of the AFM sheets for the  Holland sessions are backdated, having been filed after the band returned to the USA.

Thanks Andrew.

To stay on topic, I was thinking there may have been some down time at the end of December and that becoming involved with Subud, especially the writing of religious songs for that church, may have influenced his decisions.

Another thing I noticed in that newspaper is the passing of Walt Disney the day before. Found a fun little link of a clip from the Disney Special airing that following Sunday. Rocket Belt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyvN3rF3mUM

But with the news article being dated Dec. 16th, and the almost always, delay in reporting of such tidbuts, it would seem his foray into Subud was more likely to have been in October or November?

This is one of those cases where just a little more information in the article would have been much appreciated: As it stands, and to the best of my knowledge, I think this may be one of the only pieces of information from that era related to the topic of Brian and Subud. And also one of those columns that suggests Brian was working on music outside of Smile and apart from the Beach Boys, music which no one would seem to know anything about.

I agree with the time lag in the dating of this article: although newspapers were more current than the magazines, this looks like a potluck pop-culture gossip column and the collection of information could be anywhere from the previous week to the previous month. Yet I wouldn't go far beyond November 1966 to have an approximate date for the currency of this news item.

Does anyone know who else in the immediate Smile group of friends was into Subud?

The part that is funny to me is that this very interesting tidbit comes not from NME or the many other musical magazines out there; but from the Deseret News out of Salt Lake City, Utah.

Maybe I need to read more into my LLVS book, but I don't recall anything about the Subud in there. Also, if those close to Brian during this time knew of this religion, why hasn't it been talked about more in relation to SMiLE? Why didn't Priore talk about it in his book? Or Carlin? Or White? (maybe it was and I looked over it)

Just seems odd that if Brian was practicing it, and it was inspiring him to write music - you think we'd hear about it in a place other than the Deseret News. Which leads me to wonder where they got this information to begin with.

*definitely not implying I don't believe it....as AGD said, a reliable source told him it is true; but why is it so secret? Or does it just not matter that much?

The topic of Brian and Subud has been discussed on other Smile boards and topics since before BWPS, so it was an issue which has been on the table but for some unknown reason - unknown to us on the outside looking in at least - none of the "authorities" on Brian and Smile have touched this one in an official capacity. I don't understand.

I wish there were more audio evidence we could point to as we can the tape where the word "Latihan" is mentioned, because we don't actually hear Brian himself mention anything, rather Van Dyke and Anderle seem to be the ones in the know. Then along comes this article specifically stating Brian was working on music for Subud.

We now have a news report stating this as a fact: Looking forward, I think more questions need to be asked to the principle players involved in all this. Or, if those officially researching for various projects knew about Subud, why wasn't it brought out earlier?

Yeah hard to say how long he was into it.

Could be a private matter... also thinking of Brian worried about the word "God" being in the title of God Only Knows... not sure

http://www.goldminemag.com/article/true-5-star-albums-the-beach-boys-pet-sounds