The Smiley Smile Message Board

...what would have come next????

 :o

Smile would have been a huge hit for the BB. Next...well an even bigger hit ;D

The answer depends upon how much of a success SMiLE would have been...

I think had it flopped something akin to Wild Honey would have been next...

I had it been a success... who knows? I still think something like Wild Honey would have come next. The Beatles went back to a more stripped down sound, so perhaps The Beach Boys would have too... But then again, had SMiLE been a success perhaps it would have influenced the Beatles into a different direction and the two groups would have continued to play off each other.

We'd probably get CWTL, with a better TTGA.

Gee, who here has wondered that for the last 40 some odd years?  :p

Perhaps...
I think Pet Sounds was a bit too ahead of the time, but SMiLE might have been perfect coinciding with Sgt. Peppers. Even if not, it would have been huge in the UK and europe. The Beach Boys would have gone to Monterey, and been huge. Brian would have been pumped and continued on his experimental ways writing and producing incredible things. Mike would have conceded that this was indeed a valid new direction, in light of critical and popular acclaim (or left the group for solo efforts). An amazing volume of material would have come forth, changing popular music forever.

We'd all be flying hover-cars and living above the clouds, cancer would be cured and the world fed - peace in our time - all thanks to President Wilson.

But this is all conjecture, just like going back to anything in the past with a "what if" scenario!  ;D

I'm just happy we'll be seeing SMiLE in some form.

Well, to-and-fro, so I thought it was time to brush the dust away... ;)


Me too!!! :)


Yes, perhaps Sgt Pepper had taken another direction? Maybe Smile had influencenced other people/artists? Pet Sounds + Smile contains (-ed) some very intelligent music - could Brian top that? How far can a genious go before a breakdown? Something like Wild Honey seems reasonable. Look at the Beatles what happened. The albums following Sgt Pepper (and Penny Lane/SFF for that matter) were (IMHO) not in the same class.

For most of us fans Smile is the Holy Grail of music, but now, 40 years later, will it be marketed as such? Or will it be just another "Indie" release?

I believe a completed Smile at the end of 66, beginning of 67 would have had a big impact.   Some old fans may have been lost, but new ones would have been gained.   Not everyone would have liked it, but I don't believe it would have gone ignored in the states as Pet Sounds had been.  And it seems evident that the UK (where Pet Sounds wasn't ignored at all) was primed and ready for this.   As far as what music would have come after, who knows?  But the collaboration between Brian and Van Dyke might have continued.

.......... we all would have had to find something else to argue about on this board.  :hat

^ :lol

Brian wasn't even ready for this music. Pet Sounds was cohesive and beautiful. Smile, though beautiful is not cohesive. It's a jumble of ideas that try to hard to be unified. Sgt Pepper was acid-laced-bubble-gum-pop - thus it was a hit - it didn't try to be anything except for a concept album of a Lonely Heart's Club Band. Whereas SMiLE is about health, love, spirituality, heroes and villains, crows, psychological relationships, chinamen, and a bicycle ride from Plymouth to Hawaii. I'd venture to say that SMiLE would have been too confusing for the average listener and thus not a smash hit like Sgt Pepper.

Granted, I'd bet money that, just like with Pet Sounds in America, it would have gained massive popularity over time. But I really think it would have tarnished their image just as Smiley Smile actually did.

I say all this with absolutely zero first-hand experience of the teenage music scene in sixties US/UK....thus I'm probably 100% wrong in my theory.

We probably wouldn't have gotten Wild Honey, Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, Surf's Up, Carl and the Passions, Holland, or Love You. With Brian still dominating the band, Carl and Dennis wouldn't have been so eager to step up as songwriters. It depends on how stressful the SMiLE sessions would've been on Brian's health had it been finished, though.

Wasn't Brother Records set up so they could work on more 'interesting' material? I know I've read that Brian wanted to get into film, radio, not to mention his 'comedy' and 'water sounds' albums they mentioned....

I think if SMiLE has been released that Brian would have been able to keep writing songs as prolifically as he was.

I'm not sure it could have trumped Sgt. Pepper in terms of success but it would have given Brian the motivation he needed to make Pet Sounds sound like a pile of puke.  :hat

I think that, like most others 60s artists, there would have been a retreat towards something resembling SMILEY SMILE...maybe still using some leftover scraps, maybe some new stuff too.

Doing something simple and earthy instead of trying to out-SMILE SMILE would have been the thing to do. Better to make a left turn than drive yourself even more nuts going beyond the beyond...

The thing is - it would have been the first real concept album. It could have been the harbinger of  the progressive & art rock movement. The Moody Blues wouldn't come out with DOFP until the end of 1967.

I doubt the songs would have segued into each other the way BWPS does, but who knows. If even a few did, that would have been amazing.

I just remember that in the late 60's, stuff like Hendrix was doing was way, way out there. SMiLE would have made it not quite so much so at least stateside! Think of what already happened with pop music from just 1967 to 1973! Makes my head spin.

At any rate, the Beach Boys could have become something entirely different - maybe. Or, they would have collapsed under their own weight and become very much the same thing. It's hard to imagine that until only very recently, bands were literal slaves to the record labels. They might have been dropped for lack of a single and been even worse off.

And, who here back in the 60's or early 70's would think we'd be here discussing SMiLE being released in 2011, and what would happen if it were released in 1967? My brain hurts.

Anyway, I hope the release gets its due - I believe that BWPS was pretty well supported for an indie label - and universally adored by the critics. And, although it really made me pine for the real deal it's finally coming. I think it will get a big push for being the lost American treasure it is, and perhaps (and sadly) push the Beach Boys back into the limelight one last time. I'm sorry the brothers aren't here to see it all finally happen. They'd be delighted.

Time for my nap.  :old

IF SMiLE had come out, pre-Sgt Peppers, The Beatles( Minds blown by SMiLE) would have thrown their recordings to the wind and never released Pepper. 
And the Polar Ice Caps would still be frozen, and there wouldn't be any acid rain, and we wouldn't have landed on the moon, but would have gone on to mars, and, and, and, and,

Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks would've become a full-time writing partnership, and as a side project to The Beach Boys, they would start releasing albums under the name Wilson and Parks.

Granted, sort of out of the time-frame by a dozen months...however, lately I wondered how awesome it would be if, after SMiLE, one of Brian's friends said: "Hey Brian, I hear you're looking for a new lyrical writing partner, this is Jim Morrison." and the two of them went to work on an album. At the time the The Doors album was released wasn't Morrison's favorite album Wild Honey?

Times like these I wish I had a way to get into that alternate universe where this did happen :-D

Has Lewis Shiner weighed in on any of this? (Or perhaps Ray Shackleford?)  :-D

I think we'd have Smile - then Wild Honey and so forth.  Brian's mental state was deteriorating irregardless of the music he made.

-facepalm-

I'd say that if Smile had been a success it's likely Brian would have continued further down that musical path. Capital's faith in the band would have remained unshaken and they would have been more supportive of Brian's further musical experiments. More importantly Brian would still have had that confidence and desire in himself to push the musical boundaries.
If he'd completed Smile to his satisfaction only for it suffer the same fate as Pet Sounds, ie much critical acclaim but comparatively low sales, he may have concluded that The Beach Boys, pigeonholed by their past success and image had run their course and that a solo career might be the better option.
Of course if Brian had completed Smile, who's to know that he may not have overreached himself on a subsequent project?

I'm pretty sure that if SMiLE did see the light of day, Brian would have realized where he started to lose control of the project, and what he could do to pull things together faster the next time. He didn't have the luxury of the rest of the band helping or a George Martin.

I went through a creative period in my early 20's where I always pushed too far, in spite of knowing and being taught KISS (keep it simple, stupid).
Your brain knows no boundaries, but hasn't become acquainted with all the physics of reality quite yet.

After nearly losing my shirt a couple of times I got things sussed out!

I would also think that Brian would have done what a lot of successful artists have done - gone on to produce other bands. Since he wouldn't be touring, who knows! He very well might have been working with the Doors or Hendrix or...

I wrote an alternate history once on this issue.  It's still bouncing around the internet somewhere.

My feeling was that if SMiLE had come out in 1967, it would have been a big hit.  Different..perhaps, but a fully realized production.  The surfer/endless summer fans would have dropped off, just like the Beatles lost a lot of their original 1964 Beatlemania fans (like my Mom, for instance) with Sergeant Pepper, but they would have found a whole host of new ones.  More importantly, the Beach Boys would have played Monterey, and their songs would have been played on FM radio, and they would have stayed relevant.

I also think that SMiLE would have been the last such ambitious work...though Wild Honey would have been a lot better and a lot more produced.  I also speculated that BW would still have had a mental breakdown (you can't keep away mental illness forever), which would have compromised Wild Honey a bit, but it would also have caused the group to begin taking a more active role in songwriting and production.  The only difference would be that the turmoil would ensue with a band still at its peak, rather than on a downward slope.

Basically, I had the group putting out a double album in 1968, touring in 1969, and then releasing one last great album (Landlocked) in 1970 before breaking up.   I took it all the way to 1981, and I guess you'll have to find it and read it to see the rest.

Point us in the right directi0on, then. as in,  address?

http://cabinessence.net/essays/talesalt.html

If it's not this, I'll eat my hat.

This thread from last year (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,8640.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,8640.0.html)) has a few interesting/humorous alternate history posts.

Does anyone else remember about a year ago when that guy posted an alternative Beach Boys history on this board, where Brian did complete Smile only to commit suicide a few months down the road? AGD's reaction was priceless.  ;D




Edit: Yep, that would be the one Rab!  :-D

Sinatra was doing concept albums long before Pet Sounds, Smile or Pepper. And they are amazing

There is something laughably and impossibly absurd about the idea that Lennon would ever be tearful about anything in a public soundbite.

Indeed some inadequacies; However this is the best alternate history piece I've read on SMiLE (not that there are many of them, though). I'm off to make some alternate-history Beach Boys playlists!

Going down the path of "revisionist history" can be a dangerous thing to do...if one is "re-imagining" and that is disclaimed at the outset, then, all is well.  However, 1967 was a tricky year;  Carl, was arrested for issues relative to military service and that saga must have weighed heavily on the day-to-day operations of The Band, constantly worrying about whether Carl would be able to perform, as he had become responsible for more of the singing, on tour.  Among conservative people, at the time, "draft dodging" was not well thought of.  It was very complex and hardly the idyllic post-war (WWII and Korea) early 1960's, when TV represented a now non-existent family structure.      

Smiley Smile was released after a repack of hits, Best of, Vol I, on the heels of Pet Sounds.  Hindsight, being 20/20 (pun intended) makes reasonable people wonder what happened with the marketing of Pet Sounds, a "sleeper," and the SMiLE project.   People have debated theories on art and music since the first day dawned.  If the record company messed up, they learned a valuable lesson as Pet Sounds has been listed as the #2 "must have" rock album of all time.  Did they "under-appreciate" SMiLE?  Maybe.  We were not there, in a decision-making capacity.    

Maybe SMiLE wasn't meant to be...at that time.  People tend to appreciate art or music as time passes, and it almost becomes mythical.  Fresh eyes looking at older work is always a good thing, not unlike Brian's Gershwin project.  Brian took Gershwin to a new generation, and freshened it for those already familiar with it.  

SMiLE sessions should be no different and a snapshot of the project, which should finally lay to rest  with regards as to who did what singing, etc., and what the more inclusive tracking would sound like, for us all to enjoy and not just those who may have been privy to bootlegs, etc., over time...

As for me...I can't wait for the SMiLE sessions with the twenty-something voices of the Beach Boys to be released!   ;)      

Thanks for the link!  :)

And now back to the real world. I find these facts very strange. (about Beatles Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields Forever - from Wikipedia)

"In the UK, the pairing famously failed to reach #1 in the singles charts, stalling one place below Engelbert Humperdinck's "Release Me". In the US the song reached #1 on the Billboard Hot 100 for a week before being knocked off by The Turtles song "Happy Together"".

EH more popular than the Beatles? And only one week at the top in the US?
Those songs are some of the most well-written pop songs ever!

And this also from Wikileaks, sorry ...pedia:

""Sloop John B" was extremely successful, scoring a #3 hit in the U.S. and #2 in Great Britain. "Wouldn't It Be Nice" reached #8 in the U.S. Its flip side, "God Only Knows," was another #2 single in Britain, but reached only #39 in the States. The LP broke into the Top Ten in the U.S., belying its reputation as a commercial failure there. In Australia, the album was only released under the title The Fabulous Beach Boys on the Music for Pleasure label". (!!!)

On the other hand, "Good vibrations" made it to #1 both in the UK and the US - so was SMILE really ahead of its time? Could perhaps "Surf's up" have made it to the top of the charts? Who knows???

Well, according to Wikipedia, the SFF/PL single ultimately outsold "Release Me" by a ratio of 2 to 1 but because the "BBC counted the two songs as two individual singles", the EH song outranked them on the list.

I think your post shows that the success or lack of success of a lead-in single does not necessarily allow us to accurately predict how well an album will do. Sure, a single in the top 10 will help sell albums. But Sloop John B ranked as high as Surfin' USA as a single in the charts and yet Pet Sounds went to #10 while S USA went to #2.

I think too that while Good Vibrations has hit single written all over it, you can't really say the same for other Smile tracks no matter how great they are. I'm really not sure how successful the album would have been. I think, like people on this thread are saying, that the Monterey Pop festival would have been crucial, particularly the film. After all, it was the Woodstock movie that really brought The Who and Tommy widespread success in the United States. I think a film like Monterey Pop could have possibly done the same for The Beach Boys and Smile if their performance was up to snuff (it would have been difficult to out-perform The Who and Hendrix on film) but I'm not sure if the album could have done it alone.

Sales figures alone rarely equate with lasting greatness and songs which inspire future generations of musicians. By early '67, the initial fervor over the Beatles (in the U.S. anyway) had lost some of its momentum and "Strawberry Fields Forever" was seen as being a weird left turn that didn't even sound like the band. All would be forgiven when SGT. PEPPER was embraced by the counter-culture AND the mainstream a few months later, but what we consider great now wasn't necessarily the most popular at the time. In fact, a lot of what is great now is not the most popular either!

I'll roll out my favorite Grammy Awards fact:

Four of the nominations for best rock song of 1966 were The Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations", The Beatles' "Eleanor Rigby, The Mamas & The Papas' "Monday Monday" and Simon & Garfunkel's "The Sound of Silence".

The winner was the fifth nomination...The New Vaudeville Band's "Winchester Cathedral".  ::)

That song, Winchester Cathedral" gives me the creeps.

Well, keep in mind I wrote it almost 10 years ago.  I actually revised it a few years back after BWPS came out, but I never got around to posting an updated version (with some of the more embarrassing parts edited out), but I think it's quite possible that under those circumstances, the loss of a good friend and occasional musical collaborator, in such a violent, senseless way, and being interviewed the day after, Lennon might have been a little choked up.  I did not intend the sentence to mean that Lennon would be sobbing like Tammy Faye Bakker.

  

I really don't think Lennon would even be choked up... never publicly anyway. His habit of grief was emotionless shock followed by hysterical fits of laughing, ending with never mentioning it again to anyone unless he could handle his emotions.

Its really neither here nor there I 'spose. I enjoyed reading it though.

The Band?! Were Carl and Robbie Robertson close?  :lol :D  I kid, I kid...

I personally think that Monterey would have been a disaster...the band at the time could barely play the oldies competently live...the live band circa 1967 doing Cabinessence live makes me :lol

True. The BB live sounded so heavy and encumbered. It is difficult to picture them pulling that gig off... but then again a lot of stoned people prolly wouldn't have cared. Maybe showing their faces at the festival would have been enough?

At Monterey I imagine them singing 'Wonderful', 'Surf's Up', 'Good Vibrations', 'Wind Chimes', 'I Know There's An Answer', 'IJWMFTT', 'God Only Knows' - let them wear whatever the heck they wanted to and it would have been a fantastic show for them....yeah, Hendrix was there - big deal - The Mamas and The Papas were there and they had a great show that didn't damage their rep.

The Beach Boys would have kicked ass there.

If it had been released and been successful, as it probably would have been, Brian would have moved on to a humor album (including the Vegetables arguments and the cab driver tape), a nature album (with the Vosse water recordings and lots of chants), and a health album with songs about exercise, eating salads, swimming and ping pong.  None of these releases would chart, but Brian would be one step ahead of the Beatles' similarly uncommercial Zapple releases.  While working on these projects he would also produce a number one album with Redwood, following their number one single "Darlin'."

With the success of Redwood Brian would try to leave the Beach Boys to focus on writing and producing other artists, but Mike and Carl would convince him to do one more album.  In a brilliant effort to sabotage the project and enable him to pursue other interests, he would release "Smiley Smile" as a sequel to Smile - bizarrely raw home recordings of the group making amateurish remakes of some of Smile's greatest triumphs such as Wonderful, Vegetables, Surf's Up and Wind Chimes along with new songs like "Hawaiian song" that break down in stoned laughter and several a capella chants.  The album would not chart and Brian would finally be free to produce the artists he was interested in.

Carl would leave the Beach Boys shortly thereafter and join The Flame.  Dennis would pursue a solo career, first as a duo with Daryl Dragon.  Their first release, It's About Time, would be a top 20 album, released to coincide with his film acting debut.  Al retires to Big Sur where he claims to be working on a solo album that will only see release thirty years later.  Mike joins the Pickle Brothers as Mike Love and the Pickles and plays in Vegas and Reno as a musical comedy act.

I wouldn't get that look like I'm a mentally handicapped person when I tell people how much I love the Beach Boys...if SMiLE was released in 1967.

:lol How sadly true.

In 1967, they were sharing the billing with either 2 or 3 other warm up acts.  It seemed endless to wait for them to get on stage.  The oldest people in the audience looked about 21-22.  Granted, there were great bands, like Strawberry Alarm Clock, and Buffalo Springfield, but The Boys only did about 12-13 songs per show. They wrote the setlist on the palm of their hands.  People were looking for what they knew, and got that and a few new songs.  I use "The Band" referencing The Beach Boys not - The Band (the band!  :lol)

And, I can assure you that there was no limit to competence.  They were rockin'  hot - Dennis was throwing drum sticks to the audience and the girls were throwing their phone numbers on the stage to Dennis...Mike was playing the Theremin for Good Vibrations.  

But, I can't venture an opinion on Monterey.  There were bands who got a great deal of exposure, both at Monterey and Woodstock.  
None of them, have had the enduring longevity of the Boys.  

Setlist from 11/23/67 - Back Bay Theater - Boston, Mass.

1. Help Me Rhonda
2. Barbara Ann
3. Darlin'
4. Surfer Girl
5. Wouldn't It Be Nice
6. God Only Knows
7. California Girls
8. Wild Honey
9. Good Vibrations
10 I Get Around
11. Sloop John B
12. Graduation Day

* Eric Anniversario's Set List Archive (Thanks)  ;)
 

Well, theoretically, if SMiLE had come out...and been a major success, could the Wrecking Crew be brought to Monterey?

I mean, it would have been ridiculously expensive to do, but if you're the top rock-and-roll band in the world, and your most recent album is #1 in the charts, selling millions of copies, and making tons of money, then I would imagine there's no limit to your hubris.  The Wrecking Crew would have come to Monterey.

Speculative Setlist IMHO:

1) Our Prayer
2) Heroes and Villains
3) California Girls
4) I Get Around
5) Help Me Rhonda
6) Wouldn't It Be Nice
7) God Only Knows
8) I Just Wasn't Made For These Times
9) Surf's Up
10) Good Vibrations
11) Surfin' USA
12) Barbara Ann
13) Fun Fun Fun

I think they could have pulled Monterey off just fine.  No, they weren't going to blow the crowd away like Hendrix and the Who, but that's not their style of performance.  The question is could they have done as well as similar bands like the Mamas and Papas and the Association, and I'd say yeah, they certainly could have. 
They wouldn't have had to have played the whole album (when did they ever back then?) but a selection of Pet Sounds songs along with Heroes and Villains, Wonderful, Vegetables, Good Vibrations and a few older tunes, and they'd of been alright.    I don't think it would have hurt them, I don't see them getting the treatment poor Laura Nyro did, I believe it would have only helped them if anything.   But, ah well...

Here is a fantastic thread on Monterey - regarding the Beach Boys: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5294.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5294.0.html)

Sorry, but I agree with Jon Stebbins on this one...

I think that's pretty close to what would've happened - at least pretty close to what I think would have happened.  :lol As Good Vibrations initially was a step towards RnB, an album like Wild Honey would have been a logical step. As you said, it would have been better produced. Darlin' and Wild Honey as we know them are songs as good as the pre-PetSounds hits, equally well arranged, but they just sound so ... well, what's the word? Stiff? Muffed? Unexciting, anyway.

But then again, maybe Brian would have collapsed during the making of Wild Honey instead of SMiLE, so we'd have a Wild Honey board today wondering how THAT record would've been like!


Actually that is part of my own fantasy about what might happen in a world with SMiLE released in 1967, as I really love the Smiley Versions of Wind Chimes and Vegetables as well as a few other tracks from Smiley.  :) I don't think that would have happened though!

So it would have been Wildy Wild Honeyey Honey?  :p

I know that we tend to ignore the mental aspect of things - as did the rest of the band probably.
But, having friends that have been bipolar or worse - it's inevitable and there's nothing you can do about it except get them the help they need.

In all honesty even with everybody behind him 100%, I don't think it might ever have been possible. It would have turned into a double album, then an album with a movie, then...

Well, the one thing it wouldn't have done is "blown Sgt Pepper out of the water", at least not commercially, anymore than Pet Sounds blew Revolver out of the water. IMHO, despite the strong Americana themes running through SMiLE, it would have still been more of a success in places like the UK and Europe than it would have been stateside.

Yes, maybe, but IMHO, the January 1967 release of Smile would have blown the Beatles minds and severely altered the product they might then have released as Sgt Pepper, thereby blowing it out of the water. 

I tend to think it would not "blow Sgt. Pepper out of the water".  If released, SMiLE would have been a great album, but its greatness would not necessarily turn Sgt. Pepper into a crappy album.  Both albums would have been judged on their own merits, each would have its fans which enjoyed both or preferred one or the other.  SMiLE and Pepper are two completely different listening experiences.  One is very English, the other would probably have been very deeply American.

What SMiLE would have done is allowed the Beach Boys to stay relevant from 1967 onward, and to be spoken of in the same "classic rock" vein as the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Who, or Led Zeppelin.  30-40 years onward, they would have been remembered for more than being a "good time oldies surfer band".  That is also what makes the SMiLE legend more fascinating.  It's never been completely all about the album, but what that album would have done to the band and to people's perceptions of the band and 60's music in general.

Your last paragraph must pretty much sum up the thoughts and feelings of every member of this board.

I agree, though I'm not sure "blowing it out of the water" is the most accurate way of putting it.  I do think that Pepper would have been a different animal had Smile come out in January.  How it would have changed, I'm not sure, but we all know how impacted The Beatles were by Pet Sounds, and hearing Smile would have only made them up their game that much more.

Jcc is spot on too, in that Smile would have forever altered the music-listening public's perception of the band.  Even with the notoriety and acclaim that Pet Sounds has garnered them over the years, the fact is that most people still think of them as the band who did "Kokomo" and all those surfing/cars/girls songs.  Nothing wrong with appreciating that aspect of them, but as we all know, there's a lot more to the Beach Boys than that.  The band deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the Beatles, the Stones, etc., and Smile being released, I believe anyways, would have gone a long way in getting them there.