The Smiley Smile Message Board

There's a three page interview with yr man in the new issue of Record Collector, out this week in the UK. Smile is touched upon in the final couple of questions (on the imminent reissue, Parks says, "I'm happy just to see -finally- that Mike Love had learned to eat crow"), but the interview focusses on the series of 45s he's about to issue, on upcoming live shows, and the current political climate in the US. He also mentions that he's compiling a CD called "Arrangements", a "selection of collaborations which sit in ignominy in the Warners vault", which should be good.
It's a fantastic piece, and so refreshing to read an interview with someone of Parks' wit & intelligence.

...over and over the crow cries uncover the Lovester... ;)

awesome quote. 

You know what I find interesting? That Mike Love, the supposed devil, never really takes a lot of shots at VDP, yet every chance he gets, Van Dyke talks a bunch of sh*t about Mike Love.

Probably because Mike doesn't have to. Mike can laugh all the way to the bank. VDPs strikes me as a very well-mannered guy who doesn't think much of money or fame (heck, isn't he in overalls or a tux anytime a picture is taken of him?)....he doesn't seem like the type of person to hold a grudge for nothing....there's obviously a good reason for his annoyance.

I think VDP has other reasons to be annoyed at Mike - Saddling him with the bill for a private plane is an obviously dick move. And lest we forget, Mike Love is an ass.

I bet Parks has been saving the 'Eat Crow' line for fucking decades though   :lol

:lol that post made my day lol

:h5 :rock :love :thumbsup :wave :woot :listening :drunks :kiss >:D

Parks is the modern day Mark Twain, he's a treasure of a lost era.

mike wouldn't exactly help his cause if he opened his mouth..again.

Love it.  (no pun intended)  :hat

I hear you.
Van Dyke just doesn't act classy when it comes to Mike. Don't care what Mike did or didn't do it's still not classy.

i think mike did his damage already.  Mike pretty much junked van dyke's work, that's a pretty personal attack.  van dyke can take his shots. 

he will...mark my words. it will be understated and harmless at this point, but with the media frenzy that will erupt over the summer, Mike won' t be able to resist.

I can picture it now, Al, Brian, Bruce and Mike are atop Capitol Tower, there are film cameras and interviewers, about halfway through something snaps in Mike, he says something like 'And I still don't know what that line means!', Brian walks out, uses his veto and SMiLE is never heard of again....  :lol

Hopefully he won't get after Brian and VDP but will return to his celebrated RR HOF commentary on Paul McCartney and Mick Jagger. :lol

Van Dyke is excused when commenting on someone with absolutely no class. :p

I think VDP cares so much that he carried his bitternes towards Mike for decades. He has not many nice things to say about Brian's music either. He's not a fan of Brian's music and Brian's not a fan of VDP's.

Truth is ML sang the hell out of VDP's lines. There are records that attest to it... And his Cabinessence vocals were heard by the public as early as 1969, so probably it's time Van Dyke moves on. The airplane incident sounds like one of those VDP stories to me: entertaining fiction with a touch of reality. Like the story about Lennon's remarks on ML.

Maybe there was a reason for Brian's speech at Ringo's b-day.

Huh?  In every interview I've ever seen, VDP is effusive in his praise of Brian Wilson's musical genius.  Sure, he has taken a few shots at the other Beach Boys for wanting to stick to the cars-and-girls formula,  but with regards to Brian, he's been uniformly positive.  Show me something negative he ever said about Brian's music.

I can't really blame VDP for carrying a grudge.  Remember "The Beach Boys: An American Family" made-for-television movie?  

Gee, if I were portrayed negatively and falsely in a major network television movie... and my name were mentioned 7 or 8 times... and I had to get a lawyer and threaten to sue unless they would change the name of "my" character, I think I'd be a little upset, too.

What did VDP say about Lennon and Mike Love? Can't be anyworse than being called an All American Bullet-headed Saxon Mother's Son.  ;D

On the contrary, I think Mike sounds quite bored, or indifferent, singing the ooh, three or four portions of Smile he gets solo spots on (The Cantina, Crow, the shared H&V verse, sunny down snuff, and some others I've probably forgotten)? Probably doing it at the insistence of Brian.
His bass singing is, as usual, tiptop, but he is really not bringing it on those leads.

And if you were Van Dyke, wouldn't you be mad? Here is a struggling songwriter, given the chance to write for the most successful young man in American pop music, with the success, acclaim, and all the rest that that entails, and the chance slips by because there is resistance in the band (I know there are other factors, mostly Brian's mental state) making things difficult. That's how he calls it. He has to leave. And he gradually sees the Beach Boys (and he works in the periphery for quite some time), who he personally witnessed as being on the cusp of something amazing, slowly twist and turn into a very sad affair, with dwindling musical/commercial stakes. And he sees Mike Love happy and Brian, well, not. In simplistic terms. I can understand wholly why VDP would be mad at Mike. Hell, sometimes I'm mad at him!

Not only did Mike Love stiff VDP with the bill for a private plane (and VDP is nowhere near a rich man), he also bloody assassinated his character in that TV show. And, i repeat, Mike Love is an ass! A great singer, talented (if limited) writer, and I don't wish he was still pumping gas, but still. The man is an ass.

The Lennon story is in here, I think http://www.vandykeparks.com/miscfiles/latimes0004.html. I also distinctly recall in one Beatles bio Paul or George recalling that he took lots of contraband with him to sell to fellow meditators in Rishikesh.....

Thanks hypehat. This is news to me.  :)

Post of the day, without question.   ;D

Why I oughta....  ;D

i think van dyke handles it in a pretty classy way.  Has he ever actually called mike names?  that'd be unclassy.  and he doesn't here.  Y'know what i doubt mike has EVER done?  that would probably fix all of this?  mike apologize to van dyke. 

Bollocks, in his introduction to Brian's performance at the Carl Wilson foundation in 2002 he says "he has remained my favorite American songwriter of the 20th century for his character, for his character, for his unswerving courage, for his vision. He is not a sissy. He has raised the bar of songwriting and musicality with his incredible sense of subtlety and physicality. And I am incredibly proud to present my friend Brian Wilson." Exact words.

What would he apologize for?

Van Dyke Parks could have been a member of the Byrds, but chose not to. He has had the same wife for the last 45 some years (in modern society this is what we consider a "miracle"). He has worked with some of the most popular musicians EVER (The Beach Boys, U2, Ringo Starr) - yet he is content with keeping a low profile. He created one of the most under-appreciated pop albums of all time...then went on to make an album full of calypso music. The definition of "class" in most dictionaries is "Van Dyke Parks" - seriously. ;D

Mike Love on the other hand....well, his reputation of being an ass is probably not that far off the mark - at least in his dealings with VDPs.

Where does Durrie figure into those calculations?

Hasn't he been with her since before the SMiLE era?

Uh, NO! That's why she has/had posession of the near-mythical SMiLE-era acetates that she got in the divorce settlement!

LOL, well scratch that one off the list!

When did they get divorced?

Somebody gets it. It's just looking through interviews done from 1967 on Mike has only said he didn't understand some of the lyrics. He never put Van Dyke down as a person and did not write the stupid movie which honestly doesn't make Parks look all that bad. Van Dyke has made numerous personal remarks about Mike in public. Again Mike was probably a dick at times but it is still not classy to be knocking someone constantly in public after all these years.

Can't we all just agree that Mike had every right to have an OPINION on the lyrics he was being asked to sing? The guy's a founding member and a creative force in the band that was his just as much as it was Brian's. He had an opinion on a specific line and asked a question which is what any member of any band in history has the right to do.... Let's get over it, even in VDP can't.

I mean, The Who erupted into bloody fist fights over such concerns and they're all great wonderful blokes but Mike's the devil for asking about a specific line?????

For more on this I dug up these threads
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2652.0.html
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,4603.msg75264.html#msg75264

Van Dyke has been bitter long before the TV mini series. ML did not write the darned thing anyway.

VDP has praised Brian on a personal level, he has not praised his music as much. He hasn't made negativr comments on Brian's music, but he's remained silent most of the time.

It's intersting that Bri and VDP respect each other but still do not remain friends. For me VDP and ML are much more alike than Van is ever willing to admit. And I think it's cool that despite VDP's bitterness, he kept being invited to perform on BBs records, including their last #1 hit. It seems like Mike is cool / indifferent about the whole deal... Maybe it's time that VDP cools it.

van dyke is a creative force.  mike love is a creative fart.

Mike Love annoys the hell out of me as much as anybody, but to dismiss him as a creative fart is among the largest bull-merda I have read on the SSMB. Forget all the wonderful lyrics he wrote/contributed/inspired, and that he helps keep the BB flame alive.

Sure he pisses off just about everybody but I still dig the dude. I would bet a fortune that Brian's solo music would be loads better if Mike was contributing lyrics for him..that goes for TLOS and the rest of his solo output...

Shame all this drama has manifested among these artists. Mike may strike-out 99 times out of a hundred on his own, but with Brian he makes great art almost always...

These guys all need to drop acid together in their advanced years in Fishmonk's basement and listen to Beethoven and Mozart backwards, and get a grip on reality...

Myke Luhv an ARTIST??? WTF????? Creative fart is a flattering description.Toot.

Dude, anyone can fancy themselves an artist; hell, half of NY does...but as long as most of my favorite BB songs have Mike Love lyrics then he's an artist in my book. Maybe he was better at one point in time, but IMO he was a great artistic partner to one B.D. Wilson.

Also, to be honest, I am in no way elated to be defending Mr. Love...but IMO he deserves more credit than he gets.

Not to mention Mr. Luv wrote a couple of very good evocative lyrics for Mr. Dennis Wilson as well. Seeing that Brian and Dennis both considered the guy worthy ought to say something.

Trying to turn certain types around about Mike are like trying to convince an ant eater not to stick his snout down an ant hill! It's hard-indoctrination that can't be reversed.

Totally agree and a real class act. Great to see live too.

I think you're unintentionally speaking volumes here.

Not necessarily, because not everyone writes well with Brian. No offense to him, but Stephen Kalinich is an example, with the one obvious exception.  Look at who Brian has co-written with, and look whom he didn't really work that much with. Don't ever underestimate the importance of compatability.

It's useless trying to reason.

It's a sadistic self-punishing pursuit to "love" a band where you regard one of the key creative forces and vocal contributors with nothing but spittle inducing violent hatred.

Oh, how difficult it must be to deal with us unreasonable fools!


Well, for one, I don't consider Love to be a "key creative force" in the band, despite the fact that he takes credit for the Beach Boys success.

I do think he's a great lead vocalist but that doesn't alleviate the fact that he's a guy with a massive ego, with zero artistic sensibilities, and more than likely was a key figure in souring Brian's optimism about Smile.

It's not difficult, just taxing.

I honestly can't see how you can claim that a guy who sang innumerable lead vocals or key vocal parts in innumerable Beach Boys songs while also writing innumerable lyrics NOT a key creative force in the band. It just doesn't hold up under simple math. And I did say A key creative force. Not THE key creative force (that would be Brian up until 1967 and still a bit beyond that) The Beach Boys were a family affair where each guy got his shot at greatness and it should be embraced as such. Brian was in a position of immense power during Smile and it's demise can't simply be accounted for due to Mike's questioning a lyric or not being 100 % enthused. Many a rock masterpiece has been brought to completion under much more trying circumstances.

And you mean to tell me no one else in the Beach Boys had an ego? Please!!!!

You simply choose to hate Mike and that's it.

I knew it was a mistake to single out this quote! Here we have an interview brimful of provocative political opinion (and also one where Parks completely misinterprets Neil Young), fascinating news-y tidbits & great anecdotes, and I choose to post the Mike Love side-swipe. Never mind; I guess the magazine is on the shelves now (at least in the UK), so you can choose your own favourite quote.

No mistake - great quote

I thought that Brian releasing his own solo Smile was a way to show it to Mike, wasn't it? Then an official Smile with his vocals is Mike having the last laugh.  :)

Sure, they all have egos-we all do but Luhv's is far too vast and out of control for whatever accomplishments he may be credited for. No one  chose Myke to hate-he just chose to be the way he is and stuck with it. Its not too hard to figure out.

i give him credit for some great lyrics in the early-mid 60s.  and some great tunes (big sur).  but in this era.  Next to brian, dennis, van dyke who were creative FORCES, then mike doens't compare.  that's what i meant.  Also, don't lump me in with this crap about drugs and merda.  You take one quote that you don't agree with and lump me in with fishmonk?  Seriously? 

even with all the good stuff he did, he's done a lot of crap.  and his leanings to making money over the music pretty much negates his creative "force". 

Bear: nice to see you posting again.

oldsurfer: it's a shame that your hatred towards a BB member has turned you into a troll... the longest-living troll in BB message boards history, maybe. I wonder if you contribute thoughtful posts under a different nickname.

yeah...the only reason brian released smile was as a swipe at mike.  :lol

Sure. Darian, Jeff, Probyn, Nelson et al didn't want to do BWPS at all, at first. But then Brian began to hurl bricks and bottles at that gang of losers. And he shouted: 'hey, I'm a genius too, you know! If it weren't for me, you guys would be pumping gas!'

They gave in.

Well, for one, he did not write "innumerable lyrics". The number of lyrics he wrote are quite numerable and even the lyrics he claims to have written are highly suspect in my opinion. He was the main lyricist on three Beach Boys records. Even if you just include the period from Surfin' Safari to Smile, that represents less than a third of their albums. There's some more simple math for you.

I don't really consider his vocals or key vocal parts to be creative - he was basically directed to sing those parts and to do so in a particular way. It doesn't take too much energy to do that. Yes, he had a natural talent for singing a certain kind of vocal but I don't think there's much creativity there.


Thanks for telling me how I should appreciate one of my favourite bands.


He was in a position in immense fragility which anyone should have been perfectly aware of, given Brian's own history of anxiety attacks.


I never said it could. But it certainly doesn't help to hear from both your lead singer and your cousin that the album you have been pouring all your talents into over the past few months isn't very good. Brian has always put a lot of stock in the opinions of others and hearing negative remarks about Smile, I'm sure, only heightened his well documented insecurities.

Is it any surprise that the Smile project, which for the most part had been running smoothly, began to fall apart immediately after the disastrous vocal sessions in December? I mean, is that just a coincidence to you?


Good for them.


I don't know if any other member has taken responsibility for the group's success, do you? And some have much more of a right to do so than Mr. Love.


As opposed to someone forcing me? Yes, I suppose you're right.

I used to feel the same way about Mike as some of you but have since come to conclusion that the situation isn't as simple or easy as a "I hate Mike" stance. I don't know how you can deny that he wasn't one of the creative forces behind the band. But I say live and let live. Mike had issues and not all of them were unjustified.

Seems to me the schism in the group (between Mike and Brian) began with California Girls. Then VDP and SMiLE only complicated the hell out of it. The problem with the Beach Boys has always been the dis-functionality of communication between family members and most of us know how complicated that is. To find a villain in a mess like that does everyone a great disservice.

But seriously folks -

pixletwin has a point. I find Mike's 'humour' often incomprehensible. Perhaps he has said all kinds of things for all the wrong reasons. But if I were part of a successful team, and had invested quite a lot of work in that team, and then other members would go on to develop all too big a liking for drugs, and collaborators from outside would be brought in without me being asked, and then indecisiveness and deathborn projects would be the end result of all that.... I might be not that happy with these things.
Mike is not the Satan himself. And he can't be blamed for the self-destructive tendencies in other band members.

Indeed it is too grey of an area. When I first read the SMiLE lore I went through a hate-mike-love phase. Then I realized I have never met the man and have no right to judge him based off of a few stories (granted, some of those stories make him look like an ass, but who knows?)....Idk, it's too hard to judge the situation and thus it's really ignorant to conclude that everyone should hate Mike Love when all the facts aren't (and will never be) on the table.

However, I still say that Parks seems like a class guy who wouldn't hold a grudge for nothing....but then again, who knows....

I will never be able to forgive Mike for this though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6U2ubpBd28&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6U2ubpBd28&feature=related)

;D

OK, we have to stop with this business about "Mike is not the Satan himself". No one is seriously suggesting anything like this. I have been accused already of hating Mike Love without having said anything of the sort. Without realizing it, you are exaggerating our point in order to trivialize it.

At any rate, you are correct that "he can't be blamed for the self-destructive tendencies in other band members." That being said, it's not like he was the one swoop in and save the band from total obliteration. When Brian began his slow bow out, it was really Carl and Dennis who stepped up to the plate as producers and songwriters. Hell, even Bruce could help solidify an album with songs and production. Love couldn't do any of that. I think that alone suggests that this business about him being a "key creative force" is dramatically overstated. The music produced by the band post-Smile just simply doesn't give a lot of weight to the suggestion that Love was a key creative talent who had to deal with self-destructive band members. As far as I'm concerned it was those band members who actually kept the band going and produced some of their best work.

Fair enough.

hey doc, thanks for the attention! somebody's gotta do it, right? Looks like I've got some pretty good company here, too! ;)

Dysfunctional band with dysfunctional fans...no wonder people always try to find common ground between the Beach Boys and the Beatles. I mean, the Beatles are all a bunch of jolly blokes, aren't they? The impression I get from this thread and so many others that degenerate into mindless idiocy is a whole lot of wasted brainpower to get fingers on a keyboard. The amount of stuff that people post on here about Michael doesn't faze him one bit yet one idiot posts a stupid remark on the bloobored that almost, essentially, ended Brian's career.

Case in point, you are all yo-yos contributing to Michael's alimony payments! Enjoy it, and keep those lovin' good vibrations a-happenin' with you.

I guess the pendulum is swinging again on Mike.

Are you sitting on an uncomfortable seat?

Yeah, my work chair sucks. :)

I can only speak for myself, of course, but my pendulum has been firmly in place since late the 90s. It became apparent to me, then, that The Beach Boys were finally getting their due as an important rock band from the 60s. In order for that to happen though, the centre of attention had to be Brian. Mike's attempt to save face through this, by saying that he was the one responsible for the band's success (pretty much suggesting that the band was successful in spite of Brian rather than because of Brian) was beyond the pale. It became clear to me, at that point, that the excuses given to cover up Mike's egomaniacal past behaviour were paper thin. As far as I'm concerned, he is exactly the type of personality that irks me the most - he talks a big game but has little to back it up and what is worse is that he actively attempts to take credit from those who are much more deserving. I really don't know how anybody could support such behaviour.

Well you're right about that. However, FWIW, he had and probably would still have a great knack for writing with Brian. I don't care if he is the biggest scumbag west of the Hudson... It is sad how all this came to be.

On the other hand, with VDP ripping Mike every chance he gets, he might end up being the one who stalls this beast in mid trax... It's all ridiculous.

What did Dylan say at the R&R induction ceremony about forgiveness??

There's no doubt, they wrote some great songs together but you must admit that the balance of greatness on those songs is hardly equal. In other words, I think the caliber of the music on a song like I Get Around vastly outweighs the caliber of the lyrics. This is not to say that the lyrics for IGA aren't good. They are! They suit the music nicely, they have a sense of exuberance and joy but the music composition is in an altogether different category.

Plus, it was difficult to write with Brian in the early to mid 60s and not produce something great. Brian's talent to create great music just happened to be growing substantially during the three albums that he wrote with Love and continued to grow when Brian replaced Love with Asher and then replaced Asher with Parks.



I do. And I know that I certainly wouldn't want to re-ignite my partnership with a man who has implied that our band was successful because of him and in spite of me. I might just be happy to continue doing stuff on my own while he plays county fairs.


Brian and Mike haven't had a solid songwriting partnership since 1965 and even then they had only been exclusive collaborators for a year. I doubt VDP's comments have anything to do with Brian and Mike not writing together. And VDP has had plenty of opportunities to put Mike down where he didn't. Look at the A&E Bio - there, it's Tony Asher who claims that Love was a problem during Pet Sounds. Parks refuses to mention Love by name. Clearly though the testimony of both Asher and Parks through the years says enough.


Yes, but such behaviour has continued to repeat itself in different ways over the years. He has made enough comments to confirm that his haze induced outburst at the HoF was just a significant part of his character shining through.

I wan't implying Brian should re-ignite the partnership...just that regardless of his character he worked extremely great with Brian.


How nice it would be to let all this subside and to collect the $$ which is in their future...

Can we just get a production picture of this box set? Pretty please. Seriously, I am begging here.

*waits*

...

...

...

...

 >:(

Oh, that's an easy one. Currently Mike is re-mastering the whole shebang without Linnett in the neighbourhood. He's adding strings here and there as we speak. Brilliant arranger too. He's better than Nick DeCaro in these matters. Just wait and hear... and weep...

What happened there?

Say what you will about Mike, but the music that the band is most noted for is during the time when Mike was one of the main lyricists for the band. To Mike, when the music was upbeat the band was popular. When Brian went away from the tried and true formula, things began to change in a big way and not all good. The whole band rode on the coatstrings of Brian's compositions. Brian's new music and different behavior probably caused great concern within the band. In hindsight, I can see Mike's point of view on things. Not that I agree with it totally.

I'm not wanting to airbrush Mike out of the picture or anything, as it can't be denied how well the "band" as a group entity worked in the glory years of the early and mid 60's when they were setting trends. But I'd also suggest the phrase "one of" the lyricists is a very important asterisk in the story. The Beach Boys were trend setters in bringing the California mythology to the rest of the US with hot rod culture and lingo as well as surfing, apart from the usual teen love and loss material. And I'd say Roger Christian's lyrics earned them the hot rod crowd because Christian was immersed in that scene and knew what he was writing about, as was Gary Usher to some degree who was a potent force on those early myth-making songs. Same thing with the earliest surfing songs: Brian went to people he knew who actually surfed to get the lowdown on the right terms and phrases to use in the songs so they wouldn't sound phony. Great example: that classic line about turning on the radio to get the surf reports. Did that come from Mike or from a real surfer? Yet how many kids in the Midwest heard that line and thought how cool is it to wake up and hear the surf reports on the radio every morning? Pure California mythology that appealed to so many and still does.

Mike seemed to be good at coming up with a good hook after the fact, and after the concept was in place. If it was a song about hot rods, he'd latch onto one key term and make a lyric line out of it. But was he the originator of that? Does it matter in the long run? I don't know, but I'd say Mike was good at the coattail-riding (not in a bad way) elements of this stuff after the groundwork was already done, and the concept was set in place to allow variations on the theme in the lyrics.

Again, Mike's success can't be denied and the legacy of lyrics he wrote will stand forever in music history rightfully so, yet the history has to stay realistic too and not sound like one of Mike's press or P.R. announcements where he takes more credit than he's due.

good lord.  How does VDP rip Mike?  Sounds like VDP was over things before the private jet thing occurred.  And then that terrible movie where Mike tries to make Van Dyke look like a druggie weirdo.  You're a little blinded by your fanhood noname.  

Everyone knows Mike doesn't like smile, why doesn't he say anything about it now?  Does he still not like it?? Then he's free to say that.  I mean, the way that music is regarded, Mike pretty much is eating crow.  And the fact that VDP was treated so poorly by mike, just because of VDP's association with the music is pathetic.  I don't know why Mike doesn't just express his thoughts on the music, if he doesn't like it, that's better than pretending you do.  And if he does see the artistry in it now, why doesn't he just admit his perspective has changed?

He doesn't have to of course, but he's not exactly getting the full legacy he wants, if even he's trying hard to get it.  let go of your egoo

I believe it was in response to Live at the Roxy; some guy went completely apeshit on the forum and basically stated that Brian should just retire. Brian apparently caught wind of this and, it's rumored, almost DID retire in the aftermath.

Mike wasn't thrilled with the lyrics written for Smile. He never really put down the music in any interview that I ever read.

I don't know. I'm pretty sure the band is most noted for Pet Sounds.


To be honest, I think the idea that Mike had his finger on the pulse of the nation has been dramatically overstated. I don't think Mike Love had or has much of a clue as to what could or couldn't make a hit single.


No, but there was a lot of good. Brian scored the most massive hit single of the Beach Boys' career up to that point. By the end of 1966, the band was one of the most popular in the world, and they had just put out the best album of their career.


Not me. I don't think that anyone who rides on another person's coatstrings has any right to complain about where the coat happens to be going next.

Why didn't Brian simply reply with a deadpan 'Judas!' then, on his own board? That would have been cool, IMHO.

From Mike Love:


I think it's safe to assume that he didn't like any part of Smile.

Pet Sounds? Maybe! You ask most Fans and you'll get song titles, not albums. Not sure how old you are, but they were big on AM radio. They were known for their hits in their heyday, even though the albums sold well. The 45 was king. Brian scored one big hit single aside from the formula. I see what your saying, but one hit doesn't cement the point. Anyone has a right to complain, but you takes your chances. In a job, if things are bad and you complain, it either gets fixed or you get fired. Remember, they were family and that is a strong bond. They were in it together.

OK, if you say so. I don't read it that way. I think he didn't like the drug scene Brian was in , not the music itself.

I'm no expert, my posts do a good job of conveying that...however I'm not the biggest fan of Mike Love either. Anyone who knows me will you tell you.

So he gets too much credit, he's a royal jerk, he killed SMiLE!, and ruined the image of the Beach Boys. I get it. VDP was over everything until the private jet incident, and he doesn't rip into Mike. It's all making sense to me now.

Good point, BUT..... it's much easier to find a handy villain., therefore this will never stop.

Thanks for posting that link hypehat, it was an interesting read for a fan who wants to know more!

I realise this post comes way after the page this was on, sorry!

Well, then you're misreading the quotation because he's specifically talking about the songs that were influenced by that drug scene. So if he's putting down the drug use, is he not also putting down the things that were influenced by that drug use?

Do you think that the sentence would make sense if he said this?:

"I didn't resonate well with what was going on at that time. He was writing these great sounding songs under the influence of various substances and it didn't make any sense to me."

Well, I guess so. I suppose he could be saying how confounded he was about how Brian could make such great music despite not resonating with Brian's drug use that happened to be influencing those songs.


I think most fans would say Pet Sounds. I think your average fan of 60s oldies would give you the song titles.


He didn't just score one big hit single. The Beach Boys had three singles in the top 10 in 1966, which was the same as 1965.


Saying that "they were in it together" is different from saying that four people were riding on one person's coattails and then complained when the one person started going in a direction they didn't like. That's not being "in it together" at all. So which one was it?

And no one makes it "easier to find a handy villain" than Mike Love.

That is exactly what it is! Brian killed Smile, no one else. It is very easy to pass the blame. I look at this way, times were changing quickly and it seems Brian & Dennis were shifting toward that new scene. Not sure about Carl, but Mike, Al and Bruce were most likely old school and didn't take to the changes as fast. Lots of regular people fell out the same way. Some changed with the times, while others stayed with what they knew and how they grew up.

haha, stop assuming everything.  all i'm say is that mike's a dick and has treated VDP poorly for no reason.  So why should VDP speak nice about Mike while even when VDP treated him normally, mike still acted like a jerk.  For no reason.  mike didn't kill smile, mike supporters probably say that more than mike haters say "mike killed smile" (not that you are).  

Yup, and the words "easy" and "handy" don't require much thought or investigation.

obviously mike didn't kill smile, but obviously his unwillingness (and the others, mike had more clout) to go with brian didn't exactly make it easy.   

Just like it has been really easy for you to avoid responding to a single quotation of mine that I brought up to defend my position to you earlier in this thread. Instead you decided to just make some snide comment about how easy it is find a villain without actually dealing with anybody's reasoning. You are an expert in what is easy and handy.

Yes.

I'll ask again: Is it a coincidence that the Smile project which had been running fairly smoothly began to fall apart almost immediately after the December vocal sessions?

if that's the case, then Smile was a feather in the wind that had no chance from the get-go

If known by Pet Sounds, then why did it not sell well? People may know now by Pet Sounds, but not then. Mike said writing songs, which include lyrics. He has always knocked the lyrics, but I've also heard him praise the music and say how dynamic it was, etc. I'm sure he did not like everything Brian wrote for Smile, but on the whole, I think Mike respected Brian as a composer. As for the hit records, I thought we were talking GV or Smile era onward, not Pet Sounds. Also, I wasn't talking #1's, but overall Top 40. Sure they had a few through 69, but in the US it would be 1976 and "It's OK" before they scored another Top 40 hit. As to my "riding coatails" remark, you might think things work your way, but in the real world people have opinions and feelings. If the band members had concerns, I'm sure they were expressed, coatails or not.

I don't need to respond to your direct quotes. You're just spouting the party-line that has been repeated to death and will never change. Myke haters are so quick to anger and take offense when anyone tries to suggest another possibility, no matter how tactful or well reasoned their opinions might be. It just gets so old.

I don't know for sure but I would be very surprised if Pet Sounds isn't the biggest selling non-compilation Beach Boys album. Maybe someone can confirm this.


So what are you saying? That you are now changing your claim to say that the Beach Boys were known for their hits?


Brian wasn't writing lyrics and he was talking about Brian.


He said that Heroes and Villains was dynamic, probably because it did well in the charts. I haven't heard him comment about the music other than what he said above about not resonating with it, and it not making sense to him.


He didn't respect him enough to avoid implying that The Beach Boys succeeded in spite of Brian Wilson.


You were the one who brought up the phrase about Brian departing from the formula, which calls to mind Mike Love's supposed line from the Pet Sounds era. Love felt that Wilson was straying from the formula well before GV and Smile.


I'm not sure on your point here. Are you saying that Mike wanted Brian to be writing songs like "Fun, Fun, Fun" and "I Get Around" in 1969 and 1970? If he did (and I doubt it), then Love would really have absolutely no clue about how to go about making a hit record.


Right and some "opinions and feelings" are valid and some are not. Thus, anybody who rides on the coattails of someone else has zero right to complain about where that person decides to go next. If Mike Love felt differently, then he's despicable.

I feel lit simply pays to remember: just out of plain consideration, that there are people out there, actual Beach Boys fans (misguided or not) who think Mike is a talented person, like his singing, his lyrics, his vibe, his style as a frontman, and somehow contribute these feelings to their overall appreciation of The Beach Boys as a group made up of individuals. Brian get's his due and will continue to get his due: no one can change that. But there are fans out there who actually like Mike. It's possible and real. Therefore the stale old "Mike is evil" bullmerda can be a bit insulting to these silly fans.

[/color]

I'm sorry, but NO ONE in the Beach Boys was riding Brian's coattails. Especially not the guy who regularly wrote with the guy and who founded the damn band and was pretty much the co-lead singer in the band and who busted his ass as a live performer as a part of The Beach Boys.

Like I said before, there is no reasoning with you people.

...or because it is a dynamic sounding record regardless of it's charting.


Do It Again is pretty awesome...

Also, let's not forget Mike's participation in Smiley Smile...

What a massive assumption.  Also just ignoring everything about Brian when you make it. 

Myke haters are THE experts in assumptions, so I stand corrected

you people??? lol.  was it dennis who used to get angry saying "we wouldn't even be here without brian" or something?  

Why do you Myke haters act like Brian is always being attacked or de-valued or unappreciated. Here we have a guy who's pretty much been cast in stone as THE greatest composer of the 20th century and all you can do is cry and cry and attack and insult when someone feebly tries to compliment or defend Myke?

Sore winners a little?

Brian also said that he needed their voices...that BB blend...

What are you talking about?  I don't think I'm a mike hater, i think he's a jerk.  I don't hate the guy, why would i hate him, I don't know him.  Good for him for being able to go out and tour like he does.  I've said a few times that he wrote some great lyrics, and that his bass voice was one of the more important parts of the band.  but why do you lump everything together?  A lot of your posts have a black and white viewpoint.  

in regards to mike's voice, i think it's pretty great up till 15 big ones.

Well, I do try to not be so black and white, so thank you for pointing that out: I just dig what Mike did for the band and can't help but defend him

and we're on the same page with his voice after 15 Big Ones, so we can raise our glasses to that at least  :p

*here here*

Really, I would say Mike's history and legacy puts him up near the top among Pop songwriters and performers. How many Pop artists having a better record based on performance not on our personal opinions? Not many I'll bet a donut.

I hope no-one from BRI reads this thread as they may well consider pulling the plug if this is how certain fans go on.

He was unwilling, yet he sang the lyrics. And he did a damn fine job, to boot.
I think the reason it fell apart was because from that point on, as Anderle has said, they had to have a single out. So all of his effort had to go into the single. And by this point, he was already beginning to be unhappy with the stuff he was recording. He said it himself, the quote about 'I'm working harder than ever and am still not satisfied', or something to that effect.

BIG BROTHER BRI IS WATCHING YOU.

We've probably scared BRI out of lots of product  :-X

It wasn't the Roxy album, it was later. No rumor, either...actually happened.

No, because your only goal here is to demonize a particular position rather than actually deal with the reasons people have for holding that position.  In other words, you are an intellectual charlatan.


In fact, what I’m doing is directly discussing the very things that Mike Love has said, which you refuse to address. But I suppose it’s easy for you to make things up when you’re not actually engaging with my points.


As far as I can tell, the only “other possibility” you have suggested here is that we’re just “Myke haters” and therefore our points shouldn’t be taken seriously. That’s hardly a strong counter-argument.


I have already praised Mike Love on this thread alone for his singing and his songwriting but clearly anything short of zero criticism isn’t good enough for you.


This will be easy. Find one single quotation is this entire thread that states that Mike is evil. Then, when you don’t find it, your options are to apologize for constructing a strawman argument or to let your lie sit in silence like a coward.


I was merely responding to a poster in this thread who was defending Love and said the following:


If you have a problem with it, you should take it up with him, not me because I’m not the one who made the claim. But, like someone on this thread said, “it’s much easier to find a handy villain,” you giant hypocrite.

Your rant has proven my entire point

Goodnight

Nor is the is a court trial. I have my opinion and you have yours and we can haggle here until the cows come home, and it's all in good fun.

Did he? I mean, I can't say for sure, but it's certainly interesting that no vocals seem to exist for Surf's Up and Cabin Essence despite the vocal sessions that have been noted (the one that apparently didn't go well)


In December? That surprises me because four months elapsed between Sloop John B. and Wouldn't it be Nice and it had only been two months since GV. Why did there need to be a single out? Wasn't the album also meant to come out in January? I really find it hard to believe that the album due out in a month was less of a concern than a single.

Thanks. Just so you know, blowing a bunch of rhetorical smoke to hide the fact that you are merely repeatedly evading my points and neglecting to engage with the substance of posts that actively deal with direct points that Love himself has made is unconvincing to me, but I hope it makes you feel better.

Shades of the sheriff?? :angel:

No, just a fan with an opinion.

One I happen to share, as well...

Good - I'm glad the guy who dumped all over Fishmonk can agree with the poster who claims that Beach Boys fans are misguided if they don't share his point of view.

Oxygen Oxygen... right to the braaaain... skip the vice verses gettin' to the refraiiiiin
Let Yourself float.... don't carry that weeeeiiiight.... NEVER DESTROY WHAT YOU CAN CREAAAAAATE!...

Great tune... love it....

isn't Mike more of a man's man type? You can either handle it or you can't.
I think the whole what does crows cry thing is a rib... a big giant rib... a rolling rib that gathers sauce... as in spicy barbecue...

Mike and Van Dyke are from different sides of the tracks, right?

to the original poster:
I don't know if or when I will get my hands on this interview: any chance of paraphrasing Van's take on the political climate? Thanks

Wow...really? Because I agree with this
?

What's wrong with that statement? My issue with Fishmonk was the fact that he stated that I wasn't a real Beach Boys fan because I didn't share his opinion. I was agreeing with Erik in that NOT ALL BB FANS WILL HAVE THE SAME OPINION OR LIKE THE SAME THINGS. I happen to like Mike's work with the band;not everyone else will.

What the hell is up with the hostility on this board?

I hope the Smile box set gets cancelled. Maybe then people can quit being buttholes to each other and remember how to treat people with basic respect.

@Erik H.

I am by no means a Mike hater. As to my "coattails" comment: I meant it as there would not have been a Beach Boys were it not for Brian. He wrote, arranged and produced them. Except for the actual singing and playing, all of their success was through Brian. We all know this as fact. I don't blame Mike for Smile. Never have, never will. Just the fact that Smiley Smile was released, along with the Smile music released on subsequent albums kind of proves that, at least to me. Everyone can think whatever they want, and 45 years later, it doesn't change a thing. Brian had issues with Mike on Today and Pet Sounds, yet all were released, because that's the way Brian wanted it. Like Sinatra, he did it his way. Ultimately, no matter all the underlying factors, it was Brian's decision to abort Smile.

Sorry, Billy. I actually misread Erik's quote there so I'm in the wrong on that one.

Mike doesn't.


I will say this for ya, your argument is consistent.

No worries...did mean what i said though. The board as a whole has been very negative lately, and its depressing really.  I see so many people on here constantly arguing over something that is supposed to be bringing us great joy.

\

Sure, happily! The Sheriff rocks!  >:D

Rockandroll, I honestly have not been trying to evade your points, it's just that I've taken the bait many many times and have respond to direct quotes regarding Myke many many a time and the same silly Mkye swipes always come bubbling back up no matter what. You've spoken your point of view with impressive articulation. I'm just tired of this and want to simply love The Beach Boys warts n all which is very possible and quite easy to do..... I greatly regret any negativity I've been bringing today.

I'm with Billy, I promise to be kinder and gentler going forward.

And your hope is the Smile Box gets canceled and everyone will then be nicer? 
Yeah, maybe, after they find you and tear you limb from limb! That will, undoubtedly, make everyone nicer.   ::)

Meh, I had a good run :/

I tried to get everyone to hold hands. But it was rejected!

That...wasn't my hand....

Of course

You can't tell that it's Mike Love singing the 'Over and Over' part at the end of Cabinessence?  And as for the session not going well, if you go by the production notes of the Inside Pop reels, no mention of a fight or argument, or anything out of the ordinary was documented. So who knows exactly what Siegel was talking about.
And yeah, if you read Anderle's comments, he went to Brian and told him that he needed a single. What songs did Brian work almost exclusively on after the first of the year? Heroes and Vege-tables. The 2 songs that were talked about as being the first single from the album .

It was Mike's bald head. Just not sure which one  >:D

Yes, but that was recorded during the 20/20 sessions, no?


Well, again, we have a documented vocal session for that day for Cabin Essence and Surf's Up but those vocals, as far as I know, are nowhere to be found (...yet). It's quite possible that Mike did indeed refuse to sing that day. He certainly didn't object to it being portrayed that way in that horrible Made for TV movie.


Well, I agree that Brian was working specifically on those songs with the plan that they would be singles but that doesn't explain why he would pretty much  abandon the album after December 15th. Maybe there was a single deadline but there was a much bigger album deadline looming.

All of the "Cabinessence" vocals, aside from Carl's lead, were recorded in '66. 

Granted, I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea Mike ultimately agreeing to sing the lyrics he questioned (quite well, I might add) means that there wasn't some damage done by way of his protests.  Anderle made the point that Brian was getting sick of all the resistance he was encountering on many fronts, and complaints about lyrics (and the material in general) from Mike and other members of the band probably didn't help matters.

Well put. I certainly would never try to suggest Mike was helpful or overtly supportive toward Smile. I just dislike how Mike's opinion on Smile is usually used as an excuse to tear him down as a singer, lyricist, front man, human being. Not everyone's going to like everything and when you're in the band you're probably going to say something.

and I'd like to clarify: when I said Mike wasn't riding Brian's coattails, I meant that he certainly wasn't just sitting around on his ass and letting Brian do everything. He was contributing lyrics as much as he really could/when asked, he was serving as the group's frontman live (an extremely important part of a pop band, as we all know. In that era especially) and he was a very prominent presence vocally in the group's recordings, and he contributed enough lyrically (and vocal melody-wise, I'd bet my bottom dollar) to cement his place in pop/rock history. He rode Brian's coattails certainly to a much lesser extent than say, Roger Daltry of Pete Townsend's coattails.... Nevermind the question: since when did not being the dominant writer/arranger in a pop/rock band (and merely a co-writer/lead singer/co-founder) automatically make one a coattail rider?? Are Ringo and George coat tail riders? Are David Gilmour or Rick Wright? Are Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson? Is Keith Moon (who wasn't too thrilled with Tommy EVER: might I add)? The list goes on and on.

It also speaks volumes that audiences for decades could go to a Beach Boy concert with Brian nowhere on stage and still go home satisfied that they'd seen The BEACH BOYS!

I think that's the case though for the songs being timeless, regardless of how ancient any of the participants are (from Mike/Bruce to Brian himself). One day they just may make a sequel to Young at Heart only starring the Beach Boys :lol

Funny that you mentioned Pink Floyd...they're my 3rd favorite band (after BB and Stone Temple Pilots, and right in front of Roxy Music). There's a band where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts.  It took ALL of them to make their magic. For me, the magic stopped not when Waters left, but when Wright was phased out.

The Beach Boys though, to me that is the largest collection of talent ever assembled. Each one of those guys are so damn talented in their own right. To me, any of them would be the most talented member in a different band. That right there speaks volumes as well.

In the year following his junking of SMiLE, Brian said the band almost broke up because he decided to junk the SMiLE songs he junked. The band didn't want SMiLE junked, Brian did and so the Velvet Steamroller junked them even though the band strongly disagreed.

Yeah, wasn't the quote "the band almost broke up, actually broke up for good after that"?

Very well said.

I'd like to say this to all: Mike has said the odd crazy thing over the years but who hasn't.

I'm not saying that Mike's complaints didn't cause some concern in Brian. I think that Brian was already a little weary of the lyrics.  I just don't think that you can say it was ONLY  Mike Love, or it was ONLY the drugs, or ONLY whatever.  To act like Mike Love was the driving force behind the whole thing collapsing is crazy talk. And I'm not even a Mike fan to be honest, he's done some stuff over the years that's shady. Still, I think that to say Mike was the main thing that brought the whole album down isn't a fair statement.

That's right. If  you want to blame one person for SMiLE dissolving, it's Brian. He was the one booking sessions, writing songs, and responsible for piecing it together. And then he stopped, and decided Smiley Smile was the thing to do. Brian called time on the project, and he did it when he wanted to.

His reasons? In my opinion, it is most likely his own instability and mental issues clouding his judgement. The man had immense pressure on his shoulders, and lacked support. Not just from the group, but from his friends. If you want to point fingers, VDP leaving was more of a blow to the project than Mike voicing his displeasure. Mike, at the very least, stuck around!

Tho, perhaps it would have been better for him to leave, at least at the time.

I honestly can't see how that would've helped. It's hard to imagine the Beach Boys without Mike or his vocals, but, Smile would've been fine without him: BUT..... do you really think it would be "OK, we got that merdahole out of the picture" and then Brian would've fired on all cylinders and got Smile out on time and to his satisfaction??

get rid of all the negativity is a good way to get something done

I think it is wrong to blame Mike for Smile not being completed. The internal state of Brian`s mental health was in flux, as was his ability to make sound judgements about the sequencing. There were at least a half dozen variables that came into play in Smile`s demise.

That has to be true.     Brian has listed a few himself.   That bit of video from the Am Band film of VDP telling the story of Mike questioning the cornfield lyric has blown that  aspect of the SMiLE failure out of proportion.

By the way, I seem to recall a quote of Brian calling VDP a great big butthole.....maybe at a party......  That is hilarious given how goofy Brian can be and how stuffy VDP seems at times.....

I don't see any evidence of it being the Boys, the Posse, VDP, Capitol, pressure, confusion, confidence, indecision, his mental health, drugs, confusion or any of the other excuses we fans have fabricated for Brian. It was exactly what he always said, he ended up not digging the lyrics or the music and so he moved on to a different mood and feel. Why can't we just let him own it, he doesn't need us to excuse him.

How then do you explain Brian abandoning his role as producer?

All the negativity certainly wasn't just Mike.

And even if it was somehow all Mike's doing/fault: what are we supposed to do? Should Myke haters make their own mixes of all the Beach Boys songs and somehow mix Mike's parts out or beg Brian to write all new lyrics in place of Myke's so that Myke haters can sleep at night? It's silly and it's history. Mike was skeptical of VDP's lyrics, Brian was "experimenting himself right out of action" with a hugely successful family business at stake. There was A LOT of pressure going around Myke or no Myke.

Regardless, The Beach Boys were there to lend their vocals whenever and however Brian called it. We know that Carl and Dennis played on Smile sessions and were all in all supportive of their big brother. Mike Al and Bruce would do as they were told, snickers or not.

smile is better with all the beach boys voices on it, no doubt.  I just wish they went a long with bri.  or that van dyke stuck around. or that bri could have handled it. oh well.

Trust me, I may seem annoyingly "pro-Mike" but I really do wish the same as you. Ah, well... At LEAST we're getting a Beach Boys Smile set soon!!!  ;D

Are you referring to the whole group being credited as Producer of Smiley Smile? If so, I explain it as more fan fiction. Carl has explained how Brian was the Producer of SS and Jimmy Lockert has also told me that Brian was very much the Producer of Smiley. Why was the group credited then? My guess is it had to do with the whole group being the owners of the brand new record company but that is just a guess. Jimmy Lockert did not know. Also, to my ear you can hear Brian producing Smiley on the tapes.

Maybe you meant something else? I'll calm down.

But really, I see no shame in Brian changing his Muse/mind. Lots of you fellas are creative types, you've never had grandiose plans that just fell flat to your Muse part way through?

Nah you're on the right track with what I was trying to say... But even if Brian actually did produce SS, it still reflects a complete about face in his career direction because his name wouldn't be attached to anything as a producer for a long time. It seemed to me prior to the SMiLE breakdown, Brian really thought of himself as a producer than a Beach Boy. What changed that?

My thought has always been that he just didn't want (and/or couldn't handle) the responsibility anymore.  Once Smile collapsed, Brian lost the confidence in his abilities that he'd had before, and to create at a high level, that just doesn't fly.  The guy we've all heard barking out orders in the studio during the Pet Sounds era was gone, never to really return.  Once he lost that confidence, I think he was more content to just go with the flow and let the guys share in the responsibilities that he no longer wanted.  Of course, his own personal issues can't be ignored as a factor either, but in my mind, Brian losing his self-confidence is a critical part of understanding why his role in the band changed so much in the latter half of the 60's. 

Another aspect of it may be some resentment Brian harbored towards the other Beach Boys - although I believe she was describing a later period, but in Brian's A&E Biography Marilyn talks about Brian's handing over the reins in terms of him basically being like "ok you a**holes, you think it's so easy?  You do it." 

Yeah, I remember that quote and well put, Chris.

I wonder if there wasn't, in fact, a bit of mutual resentment between Brian, The Beach Boys, Mike, Tony Asher, VDP, and Brian's new hip crowd. These guys might have viewed Mike as something of a threat toward their access to Brian because he was pretty straight arrow, a relative, a Beach Boy, and an assertive, confident personality who didn't exactly approve of their ways and the substances they were making easy for Brian to ingest.

Likewise, I wonder if the other Beach Boys had any resentment toward Brian because, here they were busting their asses all over creation (aside from all the fun: being away from home for so long can suck) as THE BEACH BOYS, getting the applause, their voices being so integral, and Brian being at home getting all the credit for their (and his) efforts.....

if this is true, it can certainly be understood and appreciated from all sides, and makes everything coming to an unfortunate head with Smile, all the more clear.

Totally agree Erik. The situation was just far too complex to put in a box labeled "Bad Mike" or "Crazy Brian".

We tend to think that the "Produced by The Beach Boys" thing started with Smiley Smile but that's not quite accurate.  It actually started with the Heroes & Villains / You're Welcome single (Brother 1001) which was released a month and a half before Smiley.

 I tend to think that Mr. Cameron Mott is on the right track here.  Maybe the change was just a Brother Records thing to emphasize the group rather than some grand sign that Brian had thrown in the towel.  I mean, by many accounts, Brian still had high hopes in June/July '67 that the Heroes 45 would be a big hit.  Unless the psychics he consulted were deadly accurate and predicted that Heroes would top out at #11, he wouldn't have known before the labels had even been printed up that Heroes wasn't something for which he'd want production credit.

Jim Lockert claimed the Boys were back to more participation in the studio but Brian was the Producer during his tenure through Friends. Isn't there written evidence that Wild Honey was to have the Brian as Producer credit and then he changed it to the BBs?  So I'm thinking, as Producer, for some reason Brian was wanting the group credited. Now in the past the fan fiction has been that Brian was intimidated into it or there was some negative reason for it, but my bet is it was some practical positive decision/deception by Brian. Maybe because of their co-ownership of the record company and/or their increased hands-on participation in recording?

Someone should ask Desper about the Producership and credit. He may know or have an opinion.

All will be revealed when SMiLE is released later this year. Can't change the past…

Too true, but the stories about the past change all the time. Looking forward to it.

While I'm sure the Smile box will be a revelation in many regards, "all will be revealed" is a pretty strong statement.  Too strong, probably.  BB fans have been debating about the group's 1966/67 era for 45 years.  Most of those debates aren't going to just come to a screeching halt with the release of a Smile box.  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the box doesn't just add fuel to the fire and stoke even more debate.

Getting back to the "Produced by The Beach Boys" thing...  Another element that isn't mentioned much is the controversy over The Monkees.  We often ignore the fact that the Monkees were absolutely huge in 1966-67.   Their self-titled debut album sold around 4 million copies.  And it was apparently a big deal in the spring of '67 when articles came out questioning the legitimacy and artistic integrity of the Monkees for not writing their own songs, using studio musicians (i.e., Brian's own Wrecking Crew pals), etc.   Thus, in May '67, The Monkees struck back at their critics by releasing the "Headquarters" LP, which featured songs written and played by the group.  Headquarters went to No. 1 until Sgt. Pepper came out a few weeks later.  Brian had to be aware of all this, and perhaps "Produced by The Beach Boys" was an effort to promote the group's artistic integrity.

That's an excellent insight, and probably quite accurate.  And don't forget, there were articles written around that time about the Beach Boys being "Brian's puppets" and the notion of Brian being his own genius entity, rather than one of the Beach Boys, was very prevalent.  Perhaps they all thought it best to try and put an end to that perception - Brian probably most of all.  As I alluded to in another post, I don't think he wanted the responsibility of being the "genius" anymore, and maybe he felt that the group production credit would lower everyone's expectations and allow him to make music without all that added pressure.

Picked up this issue today while in town.

On one of the questions relating to SMiLE Van Dyke Parks answers the following:

"I'm delighted it's finally coming out. I haven't seen the finished product, but I've been told it's beautiful, that as much thought as gone into it as there is the creation of a Fabergé egg. I understand it exploits the work of Frank Holmes [ an artist who also contributes to one of Parks forthcoming sleeves] who did the first SMiLE cover. I first met him in 1962, and I've always admired him. Frank's work deserves triangulated equality with Brian's and mine on SMiLE, that is a fact so I am delighted that this man is finally going to be honoured at long last. He's never been a rich man; he had to work as an usher at a theater so he could afford to go and see Brian perform SMiLE  a few years ago. That is reprehensible."


Maybe this has been mentioned already and I missed it but this seems to strongly imply that the original artwork will indeed be used.........

Will be the icing on the cake. Why the word 'exploit' though?

Thanks for reporting this!  To my knowledge, it hadn't been mentioned already.  Many of us have been wondering whether (and hoping that) Frank's art would be part of this release, so this is great news if VDP is right.

I believe that the Davies Hall (where Brian performed Smile in San Francisco) does have a volunteer ushering program (whereby you can gain free admission to concerts by serving as an usher).  That might be what VDP means.  Nonetheless, it is indeed a shame if Frank had to do to something like that in order to see Brian perform.  I mean, the guy is a major part of the Smile legend... Couldn't Brian's people have comp'd him? 

Ummm... I hope he's right too. However, that interview will have been conducted at least a month ago: it's possible he was expressing a wish rather than reporting a fact.

VDP, in a bit from the latest MOJO; 'Mike Love would have wanted The Beach Boys to continue forever in an endless summer, celebrating fast cars and faster women, in the suicide position. Brian wanted to go somewhere else and I was glad to be there'. Of the package, he added, 'I hear it's going to be absolutely beautiful'. 

So there's two instances of it being 'Beautiful'. Here's hoping Frank gets his due!

O ye of little faith!  It's in there.

None of this would even be a question if we weren't dealing with The Beach Boys, who have made a career of making....odd decisions. The most obvious thing to do isn't always the thing they choose to do. Word.

Quotes like this annoy me. VDP was involved in Smile therefore he's biased. Fair enough. Let him slam Mike for the rest of his life if it makes him feel better. But to me it's a no brainer: Mike Love's idea of the Beach Boys was perfectly valid and was/is a large percentage of what The Beach Boys are, like it or not. To me, Smile would bore me to tears if I wasn't already in love with the group based upon all that came before and about 95% of what came after. The Beach Boys are all over the map and Smile was just one particular left turn in a career full of them. There's nothing wrong with fun in the sun, surf, fast cars, women, rock and roll and VDP had better get with it or shut up!

Here, here! Nice post Erik. VDP, I think, places too much importance of his part in The Beach Boys career. I'm still not convinced that Smile would have been accepted by the masses anymore than Smiley Smile was.

Just looking at amazon and it has the Smile tribute album. Frank Holmes must have got paid something for that as it is so close to his cover artwork surely?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000069RO6/ref=dp_otherviews_0?ie=UTF8&s=music&img=0


If not....he was stiffed! >:(

wait...read that quote again...what does van dyke say...i'll paraphrase, mike wanted to continue with the surf/car/girls music, brian wanted to do something else, van dyke was happy to do it with him.

where is mike being slammed again??  you can infer his tone perhaps, but he's just saying the truth.  do you mean the "suicide position" quote.  Surely even mike realized by the late 60s that surf music was gone.  and if we're talking about legacies, mike being a bit of a jerk is a part of it too, so just accept it.  

and when has van dyke ever been anti-surf?  didn't he name a song surf's up?  isn't he quoted as talking about the surf legacy of the beach boys as "i like all that" in the smile dvd?

Well, he's inferring that Mike ONLY wanted to continue in the vein of surf, cars, girls and called it the suicide position. It's something of a jab at Mike, but then again, jabs at Mike are so commonplace and accepted that it's silly to even try pointing something out as a slam. As for jerks in the Beach Boys: I hardly think Mike earned that honor all on his own. Rock and roll is full of jerks and we all know it.

I mean, I actually know a guy who used to bash Mike all the time. I mean, really bash him, saying his was the biggest merdahole in the universe, while the whole time he had this huge poster of Sid Vicious on his wall!!!!

**koff** - not a Smile tribute: just four tracks out of seventeen.

I stand corrected again! The clone cover distracted me. :)

But still the question. Should Holmes have been paid for that knock-off? My unlegal mind would say yes!

Coming from another angle, I'd say he had a good case for a copyright infringement suit... but given the nature of the project (and the frankly lamentable contents), probably wise not to pursue it.

I bought this CD when it came out in 2002, and I seem to remember reading at the time that Holmes had given his blessing to the cover.  Could be wrong, though, and 9 years later, some of the original interviews and articles that accompanied the release have undoubtedly disappeared from the internet.

It's odd, though, that the liner notes of the disc do not mention or acknowledge Frank, so perhaps he didn't approve.  Who knows...  Water under the bridge at this point, I guess...

As for the music on the disc... some of the tracks are indeed cringe-inducing, though I really like Aaron Sprinkle's I Know There's an Answer/Hang on to Your Ego.