The Smiley Smile Message Board

For the Classic Rock outtakes industry, the release of the "Smile" box is analagous to the end of a fireworks display, where the operator shoots off a cluster of the most spectacular stuff he's got, to signal the end of the show. Then the question is (for the outtakes industry) where do we go from here? The Beach Boys have more unreleased songs, but they are from years when Brian Wilson wasn't participating much. There's concert recordings from all eras of the group's career, and the possibility of more deluxe editions of the 1960's catalogue albums.

By now, so many groups from the heyday of classic rock have partly or totally emptied their stashes of vault material. This leaves a bunch of artists that have, until now, rarely permitted the release of outtakes. These performers adamantly oppose the release of outtakes, but I expect that most of them will soon capitulate. But we may find that the quality or quantity of some of those artists' outtakes gave those particular artists genuine reasons to be reluctant.

I tell you , tho, there's plenty on this list form when Brian was perspiring:         http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/vaults.html

The upcoming Queen reissues have raided the vaults, and I gather the Floyd are contemplating an archive project. That aside, I'm thinking the remaining legendary tracks are the 24-minute "Helter Skelter" (yawn...) and Macca's "Carnival of Light", which I'm most reliably informed is absolute bollocks. Oh, and maybe before he dies, Dave Clark will authorise the DVD/BluRay release of the RSG ! material he owns.

Solo and with Wings, Macca has some outstanding unreleased material, and the usual insipid crap. The Beatles were one of the bands where I think 99% of their unreleased material was left that way for a very good reason (Mary Jane, the Get Back sessions.. which despite being this legendary source of unreleased material, is closer to a load of fragmented recordings by a band who were falling apart), I'd go so far as to say they had one unreleased song that should have been released, and that was Not Guilty (George's solo version drags a little), even though it did turn out that the version which is now available was a basta ... combination of different tapes courtesy of George Martin.. that's something else I never liked but I'll save that for a more appropriate thread.

I disagree with the original statement that artists have "partly or totally emptied their stashes of vault material". What is the basis in fact of such a sweeping statement? A few box sets here and there does not equal emptying the vaults. And letting false starts, control-booth announcements, and rejected mixes where one background vocal or guitar line is left off the mix trickle down one or two at a time onto various "reissues" and the like suggests a bit of laziness, or as was suggested a reluctance to let the proverbial cat out of the bag by releasing tapes that certain band members may not want to let out for personal reasons. But that doesn't mean they are at the end of the rope with the supply of material.

Sea Of Tunes, the Beach Boys bootleg series, was what it was - but one thing it *did* do quite well is illustrate how much material exists across the board for a multitude of vault/outtake releases for years to come. Take roughly 7 years of one pop band's output, minus some missing segments, and it fills well over 20 volumes, several dozen single discs! That's a goldmine of sorts - and consider that similar vaults exist from bands who have been making music 3 or 4 times as many years as the Sea Of Tunes covered in the Beach Boys' career.

The surface is starting to be scratched but in no way do I think the outtake industry is at a point of showing all their cards with Smile being released.

The problem as I see it is we fans of The Beach Boys, Brian Wilson, and in particular Smile, live in a sort of bubble, or a microcosm of everything else that may be happening with other bands and styles. If we say the upcoming Smile project is the epitome of vault releases, that may be true for a lot of fans like myself who feel that Smile is the epitome of the Beach Boys and Brian's vault release, but again why translate that into suggesting there is a similar situation across the music industry?

I keep hope alive that all of those larger collections of material which the various outtakes and rough mixes were taken from for previous single-disc releases will be raided soon enough, especially as demand continues to increase for some bands and fans tire of buying the same songs as "newly remasters" collections.

A few examples? How much of the KISS outtake/studio material has been released officially? I'm not a fan at all but for those rabid fans out there, how would hearing some studio rehearsals play in that market? I imagine it would sell. How about all the Nirvana studio run-throughs for Nevermind, where they basically let the tape roll as Cobain messed around on the guitar between takes? Fans would go crazy for more of that, if the legal and personal issues around Courtney and Grohl/Novoselic could be hashed out. Same with Phil Spector - those amazing studio reels which are in average quality and have been trading for years - those would be huge among a certain fan base if more complete and improved-quality releases could be prepared.

It's far from over.

I am refering to reasonably finished outtakes with vocals, not rejected backing track attempts.

I'm not referring to rejected backing track attempts either. It would also depend on whether or not the singer in any given case recorded a scratch vocal track and whether that was saved on a reference mix or wiped later. Case-by-case.

Reasonably finished outtakes with vocals: Plenty of those would seem to exist as well. The availability of cheap and somewhat stable media from cassettes to CDR's to mp3's created a situation where every time a band went into a studio to work on a track, they were able to leave with multiple copies of that day's work to listen and evaluate at home. Name any band from the past 40 years or so and there is a 99% possibility that this kind of thing exists even outside the vaults, depending of course on what was saved and what was scrapped by the individuals. And we haven't even touched the issue of the recording engineers having copies of their own, officially or unofficially.

I am a fan/collector of many artists from the 1960's & 1970's, but for every Springsteen, Neil Young, Rolling Stones, Hendrix or Dylan, who have a bottomless well of releasable outtakes, there are many other artists who are now a spent force as far as (reasonably finished) studio outtakes are concerned, such as The Who, Paul Revere & The Raiders, Jefferson Airplane, The Doors, The Monkees, ELO, ELP, Deep Purple, ABBA, Yes, Jethro Tull, Sweet, Uriah Heep, Genesis, The Move, Dusty Springfield, Creedence Clearwater Revival, Led Zeppelin, Blondie, Simon and Garfunkel, Syd Barrett & The Moody Blues......and most of EMI's British Invasion artists(other than The Beatles)

Just put the entire contents of The Beatles recording sessions at EMI online and call it a day.  Charge people a monthly fee and let them download as much as they want at their convenience.  The real interest when it comes to The Beatles for most collectors anyhow are not the 27 minute "Helter Skelter" or "Carnival Of Light" (although both would be interesting to hear) but all the songs that we don't have alternate versions of yet.  There is almost nothing available on bootleg from "Rubber Soul" or "Revolver" and the "Sgt. Pepper" material on A2 was mostly created by George Martin after the fact.  Just give us the raw session tapes and go from there.

As for other acts, we all have our preferences but being a fan of seventies rock and roll, I'd love for either Bruce Springsteen or Tom Petty to open up their vaults a bit more.  Unfortunately Springsteen seems to like to re-record his outtakes making releases such as his recent "Promise" CD worthless from a collector's standpoint.  As for Tom Petty, I'd love to hear the original two disc version of "Wildflowers" that never came out.  

Edit: Back to The Beatles for a minute.  Personally one batch of sessions that I would love to see escape are the 1995 sessions for "Now And Then"/"All For Love".  There is apparently a rough backing track for "Now And Then" in the can although there has never been confirmation on any vocal work done on the song to my knowledge.  With the technology available today even if just the backing track escaped, internet bootleggers could probably make a good run at completing a "final version" of the song using the cleaned up Lennon demo and the Threetle backing.  "All For Love" is also quite tantalizing because we know so little of the track except that it's a McCartney/Harrison composition.  For years there was even some question as to whether or not it existed at all but a few years back I believe there was some confirmation from Peter Hodgson regarding the track which you can read about here:

http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/news/411allforlove.html

Is the issue the quality of said reasonably finished outtakes? As in the quality would have to be at a certain level for a release which would draw in casual fans as well as the more rabid?

I'm also zeroing in on one band from the list: Paul Revere and The Raiders. I'm not a rabid fan, in fact I know mostly the hits, but in my travels I came across a compilation of at least three discs of Raiders acetates which would fall in line very well with what we're discussing. Many are working mixes, or works-in-progress of some obscure and some well-known Raiders tracks. The quality as with many acetates is rough at times, which I could see a casual fan rejecting after a few seconds of hearing it. But they are "out there", again at least 3 discs' worth of this stuff.

Are these available commercially, or are these strictly black-market or grey-market collectors' compilations? As someone who is not a major Raiders fan, I'd think this would appeal to the more rabid fans but I don't know what is or isn't out there already.

While we're on what's left of the outtakes, how about we finally get a re-release of the Monkees Head on dvd with all the footage/outtakes I've heard about over the years....is that at all plausible?

Perhaps a minor point but I'm not sure it's fair to call it "Macca's Carnival of Light". It gets repeated over and over again that Carnival of Light is along the lines of Revolution 9 but this is simply incorrect. Carnival of Light has Ringo on drums, George on electric with John and Paul each on organ and shouting random phrases over the top. Obviously not another Hey Jude but I think it will be an interesting listen. The band thought enough of it to have the recording played in public on two occasions. I'm really keen to hear what George's guitar sounds like on the recording.

Barry Miles head Carnival of Light and said resembles a less rhythmic 'Return of the Son of Monster Magnet' but "more fragmented, abstract and serious." Hmmm...

That said the 10 minute version of "Revolution 1" which surfaced quite recently is bloody great.

I'm still hoping for some kind of Pink Floyd out-take collection, which if Nick Mason is to be believed, might actually happen. And I think those connected with Pink Floyd missed a big oppotunity by not including "Vegetable Man", and "Scream Thy Last Scream" on the recent Syd Barrett best of, or the PATGOD reissue from a while back.

Paul's idea, Paul's commission... and George was most vehement about not including it on Anthology 2, which I think is highly instructive.

What is frustrating about the Beatles is their vault wasn't nearly as interesting as, let's say, Hendrix or Dylan but Anthology still managed to miss a couple dozen of the most interesting and listenable tracks. A few examples...

The unbooted early mono mix of Got To Get You Into My Life that pre-dates the brass overdubs, has George and John's fuzz guitar (wiped by later overdubs) and Paul's original vocal track. Far more interesting and listenable than 75% of what is on Anthology 2.

The unbooted first electric version of While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Completely different performance, backwards guitar, organ more to the fore, has lead vocals. The LP was a later re-make and thus totally different performance. More interesting than the alternate Don't Pass Me By for sure.

Early version of Nowhere Man with "elaborate" three-part harmony intro. LP version was a re-make.

Paul's World Without Love demo, mix of Girl with the unused fuzz guitar overdub, the Abbey Rd attempt at Fixing a Hole (LP version was rec at Regent), Fixing a Hole take 1 (considered best, has vocals).

Is it though? This is the same George that insisted the (sub-3 minute) Shout be edited and that a section of You Know My Name that is *on the released record* be edited out of it on Anthology.

I mentioned a couple tasty unbooted Piper outtakes to someone peripherally involved in selecting bonus material on the set and he said something like "if we knew that existed we probably would've put it out". When asked said individual said he hadn't read Random Precision so he wasn't familiar with the inventory of surviving tapes. A shame as that was probably our last chance at hearing this stuff. It isn't like there will be another Piper reissue.

What footage/outtakes? Do any really exist? Anybody know anything about this?

I remember there being a couple of Beatles' "stack-o-tracks" boots but they were highly expensive when I saw them so long ago. The tracks that were released on Anthology 2 (Elenor Rigby is all I can remember at the moment) just weren't enough....Am I the only one here who wants more of the backing tracks?

Capitol loves releasing those for the BB, why not the Beatles?

Huh ?  You're saying the people in charge of a major reissue admit they didn't do their job anything like properly ?  Not sure I buy that - you don't have to be a Floyd geek to know about "Vegetable Man" or "Scream". Whatever shortcomings Abbey road may have had, its filing system wasn't one of them.


The rest of the band blocked the release of "VM" at least once before. Just sayin'.

Because those two songs are actually from sessions for the group's 2nd album.

I think it's pretty subjective as to what is interesting and what isn't.  I have a healthy trove of Dylan material and to me a lot of it sounds very much the same.  There are some gems in there to be certain but a lot of it to me is neither here nor there.  I will give him this though, as far as completed unreleased songs his catalog was worlds ahead of The Beatles who as it's been mentioned generally released their best material.

Personally speaking I'm always hungry for new Beatles material.  A few weeks back I finally heard the "non-looped" version of "Besame Mucho" from 6-6-62 and although we are talking about maybe ten seconds difference it was a nice surprise hearing a different ending than the one I've grown accustomed to hearing for years now.  Paul McCartney's "Unforgettable" has also recently surfaced and while not anything near a revelation it's still nice to have a recording that we've known about for years but never heard.

Someone above mentioned The Beatles solo output.  It amazes me that Paul McCartney still doesn't have a boxset out chronicling his solo career.  I remember him saying several years ago that he lost interest in his archival release ("Cold Cuts") once the stuff started getting booted.  Now that so much of McCartney's solo catalog has been booted would it be a stretch to say that he feels that "since it's out there anyway, there is no point in him releasing it officially"?

Unreleased post-"Emily" single, actually.

Still photos exist of several scenes which were cut, including one with Peter dressed as a sad clown character. With Rhino being Rhino, apart from the photos I'd like to think they'd put something out like the actual film of those scenes if they could, but I'm just a fan.

I'd actually like to hear some of the tapes they recorded in Ojai where they basically smoked a lot of potent weed and wrote the story on audio tape with Jack Nicholson. If those still exist, that is.

There was a "Stack O' Vocals" mix prepared of "Paperback Writer" for A2 but it was vetoed.  

I think the answer to the original question is quite simple. There will be "new" classic rock bands. Bands like Red Hot Chili Peppers, U2, REM, Nirvana and Guns N' Roses.

Really? The mind boggles to think that either of those two tracks could ever have been even considered as a potential single.

I call a lot of this frustration I have with who chooses what to release from the vaults my "Leave My Kitten Alone" syndrome. That stems from the first time I read about an outtake of that song from the session which to the best of my knowledge has yet to be leaked or booted beyond a tiny cadre of "insiders" as is usually the case, I'd assume.

So I get the Recording Sessions book as a Christmas gift, read it, and find the section about "Leave My Kitten Alone". I had already heard the mixed-down version from a guy who gave me a cassette of various outtakes and boot material, so I knew the track (and I had "Sessions" on vinyl having found it at a record show.

The description was that one of the takes which didn't break down featured a "searing Lennon vocal".

How can any fan of Lennon or the Beatles read a small blurb like that, "searing Lennon vocal", and not want to hear the track with their own ears? Why include that description if you're not aware how much fan interest this will generate in hearing *that particular take*?

So whenever I get that frustration about not hearing something known to exist but never being released, that's my Leave My Kitten Alone syndrome. We get McCartney playing hours of crap from his solo archives on syndicated radio, we get George Harrison editing what he wants us to hear on Anthology history-be-damned, and yet another fucking take of Dont Pass Me By which is a weak-ass song to begin with, but no "searing Lennon vocal". Oh well! :) At least we got that Revolution take a few years ago...

"Wouldn't it be nice to live again" is the BB's "Leave my kitten alone".

A fact which didn't stop them from including 2 versions of "Apples & Oranges".

You can make your own instrumental mix of PW with the Moggs that have been going around for a while. I did some very fun instrumental mixes of SPLHCB and Abbey Road for my own amusement. Love the Rockband game by the way!

Timescale wise "Apples and Oranges" is closer to "Piper" than it is "Saucerfull".

Just asking for fun: Suppose the upcoming Smile release is a smashing commercial success, and all but sells out of its initial run, if that's possible. Do you think that would in any way affect the decisions made on releasing this kind of thing in the future? Or would/will the Smile project be just a fluke along the lines of Hawthorne - once and done.

I still think The Beatles have an ace in the hole with "Now and Then", if Paul chooses to finish it. But yeah, I think the only other vault things that would be worth a crap by them is a live album, an official Get Back (not Let It Be... Naked), and also maybe a compilation of the strongest outtakes from the Get Back sessions, like some covers and maybe their little run through of "Love Me Do".

The Beach Boys though? I think at the very least, you could still at least do one disc with material like "(Wouldn't It Be Nice) To Live Again", the "California Feelin'" demo from '74, "Where Is She?", "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling", and "You're Still A Mystery". Those five songs at least deserve release (just guessing on "Where Is She?" and the "California Feelin'" demo).

I think Fleetwood Mac might also have some more vault material, at least for Mirage and Tango In The Night, but I'm not sure how much interest there is for that. Rumours and Tusk had a lot of unreleased material, but it was mostly alternates, not very much in the way of brand-new titles.

GuyOnTheBeach, mentioned McCartney, and its great to see that McCartney and McCartney II getting reissued with bonus material. Although Band on the Run didn't have much in the way of unreleased stuff, I think these 2 will be great.

Nope. Apples and Oranges was started 3 months *after* Scream thy Last Scream. Three Saucerful songs were in the can before Apples and Oranges was recorded.

That would be the same author who described take 1 of "Tomorrow Never Knows" as "a heavy metal recording of immense dimension" (or something similar) when it was nothing of the sort. I was dying inside to hear that and when I finally did... I don't think I've been so let down for years.  Lewishon's credibility with me died that day.

His description of the early takes of "Helter Skelter" is also very dubious.

Two things:

- I was talking about the early mono mix of Bike with the alternate vocals and lyrics. E64571 to be exact. Obviously everyone knows about Vegetable Man and Scream.

- I didn't say "the people in charge" of the reissue. What I said was "someone peripherally involved" re the bonus material.

I don't think they even considered bonus material on the Piper set until right before the release date. The set was simply going to be everything that was released in 1967 (mono/stereo LP, the 45's, French EP IO). At the 11th hour someone that had recently worked a band member mentioned the 'Belloc' Matilda and Interstellar take 6 and they were added at the last minute. Up until a few weeks before it was in the shops every press release for Disc 3 just had the singles + French IO.

Point being they didn't audition the surviving reels because this package wasn't designed to be an outtakes release. The selling point was the mono mix. I can assure you surviving band members are not aware that things like, for example, the John Latham tape are in the vaults. I'm not speculating here.

I agree the description of TNK take 1 is well off but all accounts Lewisohn's credibility as a researcher is impeccable. Keep in mind the mix he heard is not the one on Anthology, he was hearing it played back at high volume inside Abbey Road under strict time constraints. You can understand how under these circumstances his description was a little over the top. I don't think there are any other examples where he overstated the performance qualities of (then) unheard material. IIRC Mark has said there was a mad dash to meet the deadline and he didn't have nearly as much time as he wanted to complete the book.

You sure about that ? According to Abbey Road documentation "Scream" was filed in the tape library August 7th 1967 (65464-4T), and the first mention of "Apples" was on October 30th (66462-4T).

The strong implication was that the person you spoke to was more than mildly involved, thus: "I mentioned a couple tasty unbooted Piper outtakes to someone peripherally involved in selecting bonus material on the set and he said something like "if we knew that existed we probably would've put it out". "

Remember, none of the members of Pink Floyd besides Barrett were tested songwriters at that time. It's very possible that they were ready to take whatever material his rapidly deteriorating mind would give them.

On another note, Barrett was apparently crushed when Vegetable Man got rejected for A Saucerful of Secrets.

I'm not sure where we disagree...the person I spoke with didn't work for the band or label. He did work with a band member on an unrelated project and knowing plans were afoot for a Piper set hipped them to the existence of these two tracks; both of which were in their vault but they were not aware of. If he hadn't done that they would still be in the vault. Since he talked to the powers that be re these two outtakes he told me his impression was that if he knew of the existence of the other two outtakes he thinks they would've made the cut as well.

I don't mean for this to sound snarky but I'd love to see a cite for that. Syd was well out the picture when the Saucerful album compiled.

Does anybody know if "In The Beechwoods" exists in the vault? Or is the crappy lo-fi recording from the Nick Mason interview all we'll ever hear?

It is in vault. Reel E68410, 1/2" 4 track. Take 5 is 'best' and is the one heard on the super lo-fi interview tape. The recording quality of the master is said to be amazing. Rick's solo at the end is one of the best things he did IMO.
 

That track is highly releasable. I am looking forward to a Floyd outtake set. Thanks for the info!

Not now that you and Chris have both shat on my post.  ;D
I guess it's because both "Scream" and "Vegetable Man"  are both so demented, whilst "Apples" (botched production aside) is quite a poppy tune, that I always assumed they came later as Syd's mental health deteriorated.

Can you guys recommend a good comp that has this Syd stuff on it?

Have You Got It Yet is easy to find (but very long). But it is made by fans and available as a free download.

I'm looking forwards to McCartney II, that may be interesting, bearing in mind it was planned as a 2 disk album to start with. I know from what I already have that stuff like an instrumental of 'Summers Day Song' were planned for that release (it's no different from the official version, except that there is no vocal track), the rest varies in quality, and features the usual Macca stuff (songs which would have been great had he spent more time on them).

Also from 1980, there are quite a few songs that were rehearsed by Wings, some of these songs would end up on Tug of War (Wanderlust, The Pound Is Sinking, Ballroom Dancing, Take It Away, Dress Me Up As A Robber and Ebony & Ivory), some on Pipes of Peace (Sweetest Little Show, Keep Under Cover and Average Person.. I always hated that song!), I guess those tracks would end up on their respective albums if they get released, but there were some other titles that didn't get used again after these sessions, I don't know if anything from this would see the light of day, but there's some good stuff.

There's also the stuff from 1987, where songs like Return To Pepperland and an early version of Beautiful night were recorded, I'd like to see some of that released too.

The Beatles backing track boots are derived from the surround soundtrack of the "Rock Band" video game.

But for these recording artists of the digital non-tape, ProTools era, there may be alternate mixes but no entirely alternate takes in the way that analogue tape era artists generated. Today, most studio recordings do not have their basis in a basic band take, recorded with the group playing together. They are pieced together one instrument at a time, if real hand-played instruments are being used at all.

It's a backing track only. Syd never wrote the lyric.

Maybe he'll write it later

BOOO!

Anyone know of any other songs that were prepared for the Anthology?
Or should I just look at the Anthology Outtakes Vol's 1 & 2?...btw, why does it stop after Vol. 2? basically right after Hello Goodbye then Across the Universe.

I would really like to see record companies get into releasing multitracks here and there.  There would be a small but reliable market for them.  That's really about all we have left in terms of ways to repackage Pet Sounds, for instance, which I am all for.  For the 50th anniversary, put out the discrete multitracks.  Fans can make their own mixes for a contest or something, or just listen for study.  There are issues, but enough people are hacking Rock Band and Guitar Hero and whatnot to obtain stems that it seems like a label could make some money off this.

Sounds like a really cool idea.  What do you think the odds are of it coming to pass?  ( Being that it's Capitol and the BBs)

I wouldn't assume that just because vocals were not recorded they were not written. It isn't known for certain but owing to his writing style I'd say there is a better than fair chance lyrics were written for In the Beechwoods.

The Dennis Wilson Box of Outtakes would be ideal....
I'd like to see a track listing put together by someone of importance or anyone else for that matter....let alone a disc devoted to the POB Tour rehearsal.....BTW, does anyone know anything about what was rehearsed besides Friday Night and What's Wrong (evidence from Craig Slowinski, I think).

 I would love to hear the "Etcetera" recording that Paul McCartney recorded in the studio during the "White Album" sessions. He supposedly took the tape from the studio that day and it's never been seen or heard of since.

I hesitate to put this story on the internet...but since the truth about the "Alan Boyd/Get The Boot" story was recently revealed, I guess I'll tell my story. A few years ago, I was given some VERY RELIABLE information regarding The Beatles. There are in existence a dozen or so reel to reel tapes of sessions from the Rubber Soul album that were "removed" from the studio,  without proper authorization from the parties involved at EMI/Abby Road. I was told that the owner of the Rock&Roll Hall of Fame Museum owns one dub of each tape.

"The upcoming Queen reissues have raided the vaults"

f***, no!

If they mean by sicking out the b side to "Seven seas of Rhye" and a handfull of live tracks then yes the vaults have been well and truly emptied.  ::)

A copy of "Etcetera" was discovered in the McCartney archive and it is actually a Paul performance of "Thingummybob" but with Paul vocals/lyrics, an "extra bridge" and a "softer into not unlike Here There and Everywhere". I think it sounds rather tantalizing myself. 

The drastic reconstruction techniques that were neccessary on Queen's posthumous "Made in Heaven" album suggest that the group didn't really have many unreleased songs.

I didn't know about this, can someone fill me in?
or perhaps a link?

The "Anthology Outtakes" bootlegs have nothing to do with outtakes from the actual preparation of the "Anthology" albums.  They are just compilations of booted material that wasn't included on the "Anthology" releases.  The officially released "Anthology" albums and those bootlegs really have nothing to do with one another.

As for tracks that were prepared for the "Anthology" albums but were ultimately vetoed or discarded?  I believe someone has already mentioned that "Carnival Of Light" was in the running for A2 but was vetoed by George Harrison due to the fact that he felt it was too indulgent.  It was actually replaced by the backing track of one of Harrison' songs ("Within You, Without You")

Also considered for the project were:

Puttin' On The Style/Baby Let's Play House (Woolton Village Fete)
Love Of The Loved (Paul's demo)
Love Of The Loved/To Know Her Is To Love Her (Decca Auditions)
Red Hot (Hamburg)
From Me To You (alternate take)
She's A Woman (Shea Stadium 65')
Think For Yourself (alternate take)
Love You To (take 1 - acoustic)
Nowhere Man (Tokyo 66')
Getting Better (alternate take)
Magical Mystery Tour (alternate take)
Hey La Le Lu / All Together Now
Helter Skelter (take 3 - 27 minutes)
Yer Blues (alternate take)
Goodbye (Paul's demo)*

* "Goodbye" was vetoed due to the fact that it was "not intended for The Beatles" which was another one of George Harrison's hang-ups regarding the project.  The same fate almost met Paul's demo of "Come And Get It" but due to the fact that it was already mixed down and the fact that Harrison's acoustic demos from 2/25/69 were also included on the project, "Come And Get It" made it onto A3.

Made in Heaven was 90% of the material Queen were working on when Freddie died. It was due to be their next album release. It was never intended to be an outtakes package. There used to be a huge glut of working sessions from the Queen II era on youtube, these should have seen the light of day. The only real wothwhile stuff that the reissues have thrown up is the De Lane Lea demos from Queen I.

Now I'm curious. Those individual tracks called "stems" were apparently encrypted and made hack-proof when the Beatles Rock Band game first hit the stores. As soon as the Guitar Hero and Rock Band games started to use actual master tapes and multitracks in the programming rather than replacements and very well done sound-alikes, tech savvy folks started ripping the audio into individual tracks and posting them as full song files online. They were not the same mix layout as the originals (they had to bounce everything down to 7 or 8 tracks for purposes of the game), and in some cases you'd get three guitar parts summed onto one track, but it was a revelation to hear some of these, including some very classic songs.

It was LOADS OF FUN to have separate tracks to play with, especially if you're a musician who had tried to figure out a certain guitar or bass part for years, then here it was isolated and all the small details including ones you've never heard come pouring out. It's awesome.

So with the Beatles Rock Band, those in charge knew of this internet phenom of multitracks being traded. And apparently they tried to do what they could to make these hack-proof, and not able to be ripped as separate files as the earlier games had been somewhat easy to do.

I've been away from that for some time - So has the full Beatles game in fact been hacked and all the tracks available? Or are folks simply isolating various surround channels as the song plays on the game and recording them like you would streaming audio and compiling these sets?

There is a big difference and I hope someone can let me know. If more of the actual multitracks have been ripped by someone that would be fantastic news. Thanks!

I fucking hate Queen.

But even since at least the early 1960's you would have a lead or backing vocal tracked at the same time the band was recording the instrumentals. If anything you'd get a guide or scratch vocal which may or may not be wiped in favor of the lead, especially when the number of available tracks were at a premium. And those final vocals may have had dozens of punch-ins to get there, so it's not a continuous recording anyway.

One thing all bands do is try out songs in the studio whether it's digital or analog, and every band I know has at least once recorded a song and then went back to it later, changing it all around to the point where it sounds nothing like the first attempts. And again, the availability of portable media in the past 40 years has made a lot more of these early attempts available for future listeners since all the band members if they wanted could have received a copy of their work as they left the studio on that day.

Part of the process is taking songs home after recording them and living with them, and often times that's when someone hears something they don't like and decides to go back to change it. There are the alternate takes, alternate mixes, alternate versions, alternate arrangements, etc. that we'll never run out of.

The artists mentioned are some of the more popular among bootleggers, so that list was an informed list. Going back to the 80's and 90's those bands were among the most traded, bootlegged, and sold artists who were not from the 60's or 70's era. There are hundreds of releases including many studio sessions and outtakes available for those bands, and U2 alone has quite a backlog of studio session material available for those interested.

A classic story about the lengths fans of U2 will go to grab their music was when they found someone outside Bono's place where he had an open window - Bono was listening to reference mixes of the upcoming U2 album at home and the guy was recording them from outside.

I'm still surprised that the 10 minute version of "Revolution 1" was considered for inclusion on A3. It's much more listenable than some of the stuff that did make it. I probably would have included the original versions of takes 1&7 of "Strawberry Fields Forever" as well.

Revolution was another case where I had read descriptions of the earlier tracks using the word "chaotic" or "discordant" or whatever else they used and when that actual track came out it was one of the better outtakes I had ever heard from The Beatles. A thing of pure enjoyment, and hardly chaotic or discordant. Those background vocals are awesome!

Had I not already heard and been extremely moved by Take 1 of Strawberry Fields from the Unsurpassed Masters boot, I would have been disappointed in a major way with how Anthology 2 placed that track. It is absolutely, hands-down, one of the best things in the Beatles or any group's vault and it's hard to forgive some of the editing they did on Anthology 2.

Why they edited the harmonies out of SFF Take 1 I will never know!

It's baffling, almost as bad as those horrid vocieovers on Anthology 1 where you get McCartney chattering away as the track slowly fades in from the background. As if we wanted to hear Paul talk rather than a super-rare track in full. A head-scratcher for sure.

And Strawberry Fields take 1 : I can't describe just how much I was moved by hearing that track on Unsurpassed Masters for the first time, and I'm happy I heard the booted version first after they butchered it on Anthology 2 the "official" version. Even the slide guitar was mixed down, and lost some of the punch. I'll never figure that editing out as the harmonies are a highlight too.

The Beatles (hacked) multis (Google 'Beatles MOGGs' if you're interested) are mainly (or entirely - I haven't probed them
all) 10-track recordings, so quite a lot of fudging and blending has taken place. The few extant, untouched multis are far more revealing: the missing bars from 'She's Leaving Home,' for instance.

I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if messable-with multitracks form the next chapter of the Great Reselling of Albums We've Owned Several Times Already. Hasn't Bowie done it? There are separations of Space Oddity on Spotify.

Oh yes, Bowie did that officially and released those Space Oddity tracks on 8 separate tracks! That was so cool, I have them and love to hear the Stylophone and guitars as separate tracks.

I think that is one of the ways they'll keep classic albums alive. You can only re-master something so many times, and after buying 5 copies of the same album it becomes pointless. The next step would be giving you the multitracks and you can create your own mixes. Hours of fun that some people have been enjoying already without the record companies' involvement... :-D And unfortunately modern albums which have dozens upon dozens of tracks might be a tougher sell because of the sheer volume of material for one song.

It sounds like the Beatles MOGGs are summed together just like the other RockBand/GH tunes. I'll have to look around, I figured by now someone would have cracked them open. Very cool.

I also enjoyed hearing the "Love" surround tracks on their own. That was a tease for what they could do in the future with the Beatles multitracks.

"I Was Born to Love You" and "Made in Heaven" use the same vocals from Freddie's disco-flavored solo album "Mr.Bad Guy" , but with new Rock backing tracks by Brian May, John Deacon & Roger Taylor. "Heaven For Everyone" is a reworking of a song by Roger Taylor's spinoff band "The Cross"(albeit a track with a Freddie Mercury guest appearance). You'll note that producer/engineer Mack gets credited in the booklet. That's because several tracks are outtakes from "The Game" & "Hot Space". In the year when the group released "Live Killers", neither EMI or Elektra were willing to release a studio album in the same year. But the group had recorded 10 songs with Mack. Then the group recorded 10 more songs with Mack the next year. The album "The Game" was the 10 best of the 20 tracks, and one more song was used as a B-side. That left 9 more songs, which were used on "Hot Space" & "Made in Heaven". Freddie DID record 2 final tracks with the group, and he also left behind two piano/vocal performances, with the idea that the other members would overdub onto them after he died. But "Made in Heaven" is indeed mainly an outtakes album. "Queen" is nearly a spent force in the outtakes department.

I remember an interview with Brian May where he stated that they would be "putting out an EP of stuff recorded with Freddie just before he died". He implied that this would be all new recent stuff. Obviously, Made in Heaven was then padded out to full length album size. I was aware of the history behind the remakes of the two Mr Bad Guy tracks and the rerecording of the track for Freddie's vocal on The Cross b side. Too Much love will Kill You was an outtake from The Miracle and My Life has been Saved was a b side to a Miracle era single. Wasn't It's a Beautiful Day started in the late 70's? That leaves..... Christ, when you whittle it down VERY little of the album contained 'new' stuff!!! I stand corrected. :-[

Still, there has to be something from the Queen I to Jazz era still in the vaults?

I'm with you there.  I can hardly listen to Disk 2 because of the editing.  Along with SFF, there is that anti-climactic "chatter" ending to ADITL (why not the discarded "Hum" ending?) and while they presented the Mr Kite tag in glorious improved sound, they chose to fade it early.  I believe there were others similar botched.  Why?  Why?  At the time Paul was concerned that these alternate versions would be confused with the "standard" versions, so maybe he intentionally wanted them butchered up?  Regardless, a squandered opportunity.

The Beatles Rockband files are on 5 stereo tracks, Drums, Bass, Lead Guitar, Vocals and everything else. That extra stereo track features the stuff which isn't being played (Here Comes The Sun has the orchestra, synthesizers and mellotron), some tracks which have 2 guitar tracks have one of the guitars on this channel, when a song switches between the playable guitar track, there is a swap (as in the guitar which is no longer being played is switched to the extra track, while the guitar on that track is moved to the lead track.).

Unlike "Wouldn't it be nice to live again", I have "LMKA" in my collection.  It's good but not, from what I understand, in the league of "WIBNTLA".

A Dennis double CD of BB material, released and not, would be wonderful.  But I doubt it's ever going to happen.  Why - A. Mike's ego    B. "WIBNTLA" and others will be used to help sell future BB sets.

Radiohead has done this too, although in stem form rather than true multitracks.  Not sure if Radiohead is classic rock yet.  Hopefully it will catch on, even a little bit.

"Mailman, Bring Me No More Blues" has to be the most asinine example of butchering and editing of anything ever in the history of...ever.  :thud

Steely Dan have a shitload of material that's unlikely to see the light of day - and that's just based on the boots I have.  God knows what else is around.

I have it too as I said in my original post, but it's an alternate take of that song that Mark Lewisohn praised in his book which is the one that remains unheard/unbooted/unreleased. That's the one I want to hear.

Becker and Fagen don't seem to think too much of bootlegs or outtakes/rare stuff in general. Besides totally leaving off any such material from their box set (which I thought was an odd choice), they also peppered a few sarcastic comments about collectors of the "rare" stuff in the booklet and elsewhere.

Having said that, I have a precious few live shows from 1974 which I treasure and listen to for pleasure all the time. However those got out, I'm guessing there are more from all the shows on that tour since they were cassette copies from the soundboard, and I hope they see the light of day. Not to mention the outtakes...

Ever see the Aja "Behind The Music" episode where Becker And Fagen sit at the mixing board and solo various tracks from the master tape? Very cool. That's an example of what could be released as a multitrack package for fans, but I think Becker and Fagen are control freaks over their sounds so i doubt that would happen.

There are some good live boots from the mid 90s onwards, sometimes featuring songs that were never released on CD, or, in the cae of Jack of Speed, a different version.  These live boots (soundboard or PA) are better than the rather sterile Alive in America.  If you haven't already, you ought to get your hands on the alternate Gaucho - great quality, almost releasable, or the outtakes from the Katy Lied sessions.  Just makes me wonder how much hasn't been booted. But you'e right, I can't see them ever giving in.  I mean, as far as I know, the first single under the Steely Dan name has never seen the light of day on CD

What I meant to say is I have all the versions of "LMKA".  In my opinion, the Anthology 1 version is the best overall.

I wish the Beach Boys were at that point. I want to hear everything, or at the very least anything with a Brian lead. I'm obsessed like that,

What did they do with "Mailman"? I'm not aware of anything.

What did they do? Everything.  :lol Listen to the bootleg version and then listen to the Anthology version. They added a weird reverb effect. They also rearranged the actual order of the song. The order of the verses were changed, as well as some of the music. They also faded the song in, in the middle of the guitar solo. They faded the song out with the exact same solo they faded it in with. There is also a VERY obvious edit that should have been caught. There is absolutely no reason nor rhyme for any of the edit or alterations they made to the song. The original unaltered version is actually one of the highlights of the Get Back sessions.

This is the version from Anthology 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k97vyTrT_aI, and this is the original unaltered version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSdnWyjS0jE

Three words: The Magnificent Ambersons.  :)

Greed anyone??

That was my original #1 choice, but I figured few here would know what I was on about.  :)

The edit is horrible agreed.  However, I'm trying to think back and remember if Geoff Emerick had the complete take of "Mailman, Bring Me No More Blues" to work with.  There is a John Barrett mix of the song from 1982 and it starts cold with the line "One more heartache...".  We know that Glyn Johns didn't always preserve complete takes of songs throughout the "Get Back" sessions so it's possible that the beginning of "Mailman, Bring Me No More Blues" doesn't exist on the multi-track tapes and only on the Nagras.  That would necessitate Emerick to have created his own mix of the song using a faded intro.  However, that obviously doesn't excuse the horrible mix he did concoct.  

There certainly has been an outpouring of rereleases and alternate versions of a lot of classic rock over the last several years....enough to keep me going back to the record stores over and over.  I have LOTS of Beachboys, Byrds, Jefferson Airplane, Dead, Beatles, Dylan, LOVE, Zombies etc.

What I don't have much of is pre WALL Floyd, live.   I love the live and studio stuff on UMMAGUMMA and could do with  a lot more of it.

While I have a lot of Beachboys unreleased material (thanks offered to sources) , I would like to have some official cleaned up and packaged releases of the better live performances.  That is the stuff that is still in the vaults in fairly large quantity.

When were these made available? I'm still under the impression the only take we hear is take 5, the one that I had since "Sessions" and the one that is on all the usual discs. What compilation did the other takes appear on? I'd like to track that down.

This really isn't saying much about "Mailman", as I think The Beatles tear into this song with all the enthusiasm and energy of waking up with a hangover and realizing you have to be at work in an hour.

I never understood the appeal of the "Get Back" stuff. I enjoy listening as a fan, but it sounds so dreary, especially the time they spent at Twickenham, where they sound cold and tired most of the time. The highlights are there but are few and far-between. Just personal preference.

I think it's just a case of too much of one thing.  Back when "Sweet Apple Trax" came out in the seventies, many collectors wore the grooves out of those records.  They were a revelation at the time as bootleggers coincidentally (or wisely?) chose one of the more enjoyable sessions musically (1-9-69) to canonize.  However as time wore on and more and more material began to get pressed to wax we all came to realize how dreary these sessions were.  So by the time some thought was put into the process as far as organizing and releasing this material in both chronological order and high sound quality most of us were already sick of it.

To me the best way to listen to the "Get Back" sessions is to get yourself a copy of Sulpy's DDSI and the "A/B Road" set and when something that Doug mentions interests you, cue up the track and hear for yourself what he is writing about.  For me the best part of having all the "Get Back" sessions at my fingertips after all these years was being able to go back and hear first hand some of the conversations between The Beatles which were detailed in DDSI but for time constraint reasons were left unbooted for many years.

Speaking of Anthology, the documentary never really makes clear what caused The Beatles to seemingly become fed up with each other pretty much overnight. Sgt. Pepper was their biggest critical and commercial success yet, forged by a band with an unified artistic vision and they are still clearly all on the same page musically for Magical Mystery Tour. Then the White Album happens, with many songs practically solo performances from their composers. 3 songwriters and their drummer all pulling in completely different directions. By the time of the Let It Be sessions it's clear that the group just had no inspiration or desire to work with each other period. What made it fall apart so quickly? John bringing Yoko to recording sessions and George being tired of being the group's distant third songwriter can only account for so much.

It wasn't over night. It began in 66 when they stopped touring and it was a long slow death. I thought the doc did a pretty good job documenting that.

I think it's best addressed by Ringo's comment about divorce where people don't just suddenly one day up and decide to get to get divorced, instead it's just many years of misery.  The Beatles also just started to grow apart both personally and professionally.  John and Paul got to the point where the realized that they didn't necessarily need the other to be successful and were more then capable songwriters on their own.  This was something that obviously evolved over a long period of time but was a contributing factor to the breakup of the band.  Instead of writing with each other (either nose to nose or just bringing compositions around for the other to evaluate and enhance) they simply began contributing their own material to the collective pot without much input from the other.  

Also personally they began to expand ranks to include other individuals in their group where previously it was a more exclusive social circle.  The obvious addition would be Yoko Ono but both Paul and George also began to work with other artists.  In particular once George began to work with other musicians such as Donovan, Jackie Lomax and Bob Dylan he began to get feedback from all of them that he was more than a competent musician and was paid respect that he felt he had never received from the members of his own group.  Although he never comes out and states it his comments of going from playing with "Bob Dylan and The Band in Woodstock" to the "Winter Of Discontent with The Beatles" seems to indicate how different the two atmospheres were for him.

Then there were of course other issues that had nothing to do with the music itself but nonetheless was impacting the band.  Although for whatever reason it's never brought up in any official Beatles documentary, John's experiments with heroin in late 1968/early 1969 obviously had a detrimental effect on band relations.  Sulpy concludes as much but a cursory listen to the "Get Back" sessions would probably cause most fans to draw a similar conclusion.
 
The death of Brian Epstein also weighed heavy on the overall direction of the group.  By 1967 Brian wasn't as integral a figure in The Beatles success as he had been in previous years but his death did leave a hole in the group as far as leadership went.  After Brian passed, most of The Beatles projects began to be instigated by Paul which eventually was something that the other Beatles began to resent.  John comments about "Paul had the idea he was going to rehearse us" or "It was time for another Beatle movie again" are indicative of this.

Epstein's death also necessitated or at the very least gave birth to the idea of "Apple" which in the end probably did more to bring about an end to the group than anything else.  The story of Apple and it's demise is a long and winding one but the bottom line seems to be that The Beatles got involved in a project that was way over their heads and by mid-69 spent a great deal of time at meetings regarding how to set things right again.  They were trying to pull out of the mess they had made for themselves and while none of the four went bankrupt as the result of the bad business model, the problems at Apple and arguments about how to solve these problems eventually put an end to The Beatles in my opinion.

What BB album would ever come close to having a box set sold for its sessions like Pet Sounds and the delayed Smile Boxed set?

The only thing I could see is a Dennis Wilson boxed set of pre POB material.

Either that or a early 70's set, seeing as they have outtakes coming out of their ears for that era.

I have a theory about this that I've been going over in my head for a while now. I think that the overall chaos of "beatlesmania" made it that they never really had a chance to realise that they might not have really liked each other as people. The constant touring, movies, studio sessions, interviews, press mumbo jumbo, etc, caused their attention to always be on issues regarding the group as a whole. But when they quit touring and actually had some spare time to be around each other, they quickly got on each oters nerves.

Nah they actually spent quite a bit of time together even when they weren't working.  John and Ringo lived in relative close quarters to one another and were always popping over to one another's homes.  In addition Paul and John also were very close mates throughout the sixties taking several vacations together and also socializing outside of making music together.  The Beatles were a tight unit.  In fact even during sessions for "Get Back" you still get the feeling that the four of them got on personally but just didn't want to be in a band together.   Once the sessions moved to Apple they was a lot of good natured Beatle ribbing and joking around from four people who a week earlier you'd think were ready to come to blows.   I think John summed it up best a few hours before he died when he said "The Beatles are finished but John...Paul...George and Ringo go on"  

I honestly think the only Beatle who ever really held any type of severe personal grudge was George Harrison against Paul.  Even when he was forming "The Traveling Wilburys" in the late eighties he made sure to make mention of how much he loved being in a band again but without people who were going to "make it all about them" or were hard to work with which I can only take as not so subtle jabs at Paul McCartney.

Nobody wanted to believe me, that, in these final days of the classic rock outtakes industry, that Pink Floyd archival material is on the way. It was announced today by EMI: expanded editions, and super-expanded box set editions of "The Dark Side of The Moon", "Wish You Were Here" & "The Wall"(whose box set edition will have 7 discs), plus more re-packaged/remastered editions of the other albums, and possible expanded editions of further albums in the future.
                   We're entering a last hurrah celebration of classic rock archival material with more expanded editions of albums by Paul McCartney, Queen & The Kinks coming this summer, and Pink Floyd starting this fall. The Beach Boys can either join this last hurrah outtakes festival with a "Smile" box...or not be a part of this, but there is no doubt that this is, commercially the ideal time.

Phil, please stop talking complete bollocks. Check back to the thread where you first mentioned it - no-one disbelieved you and I asked you for further details in a PM, not because I doubted what you were saying but because I wanted that archive project as much as you did. If you're going to play the injured innocent/spurned prophet, you need a better memory.

As for this:


Change the record, it's getting very tedious. The Smile project has been announced, and is currently being prepared for a summer (2011) release. It will happen, trust me. My bet still stands, if you want to take it. If not, kindly explain why you seem so sure it won't. Are you, by any chance, related to Steve Hoffman ?

Hoffman is an egomaniac and certainly no relation. I've never met him, and I was long ago banned from his forum. Capitol's "Smile" box announcement did say "Later This Year", but nowhere did it say "this summer". As for those who think that a release of the "Smile" box may be timed to occur before the Grammy nomination cutoff date, how do we know that The Beach Boys  or their compiler even WANT a Grammy?

So you don't think it's coming out?

History tells us, that due to the fractious, litigation-riddled history of The Beach Boys, that no release of anything is certain until it's in our hands. Certainly, I hope that a "Smile" box set will be released. We will see. But the lack of any further progress report gives many(including myself) reason to worry. As some have said, Al Jardine's unapproved announcement may have forced Capitol to make an official announcement when the box was in a very early stage of developement; nowhere near ready to send to the pressing plant. We don't even know if any mixes have been made, and, if so, if any have been played for any of the group members.

Yeah, nobody po po'd it.

For info, here's the Pink Floyd website for the new releases

http://whypinkfloyd.com/index.php

I'm no expert, but I can't see anything in terms of previously unreleased material, ever
topping this forthcoming SMiLE set. Very exciting.

There is still a ton of Pete Townshend "Scoop" material, and supposedly some Who
songs from the sixties and seventies, that have never been out.

What I would most like to see other than SMiLE, are the few remaining Beatles gems
like Carnival of Light and Now and then. I expect something similar to Revolution 9 with
Carnival, and I expect the finished Now and then to be comparable to Free As A Bird or
perhaps even better, because McCartney invested so much time after the threetles sessions
in embellishing it.

They say George Harrison has two dozen late period songs, from the Brainwashed period,
in varying stages of completion, in fact Olivia Harrison said that, and that she would ask
Jeff Lynne to finish them up. That was about two years ago.


I find songs we haven't heard at all to be somewhat more exciting, than alternate versions
of songs we already know. SMiLE being the exception of course, because the Smileysmile and
subsequent versions of SMiLE songs generally are consiered to be inferior. Whereas with the Beatles
Stones or Who or Kinks, the released version of a song was probably the best version 95%
of the time.

I asked Chuck Negron recently if there were any more "Redwood" tracks from the Time to get alone
sessions. He said there were not. He said they were intended but they never got to do their vocals.

The new Pink Floyd sets are news to me, I didin't realize they had that much in the can.

All the cool bands, Byrds, Beatles, Kinks. Beach Boys, I don't how much is left to come out.

The Byrds.....no remaining unreleased material, except more early 1970's concert tapes.

from examiner.com, 2/3/11:

Are there plans for a new Beach Boys archival project?

Alan Jardine: Capitol Records plans to issue a Beach Boys version of Smile sometime this summer to begin the celebration of The Beach Boys’ anniversary.  Smile is the Holy Grail for Beach Boys’ fans, so it will be good.  

As for the 'not wanting a Grammy' idea... are you in some way mentally impaired ?  Take this thought on board: maybe there's a reason why some of us are saying it'll be released before the Grammy 2012 cutoffs other than "gee, wouldn't it be nice ?"  I'd send you a PM and expand a little (just a little) on that, but seeing as the last one I sent you became public property, you'll understand why I'm leery of so doing.


Worry away, but also consider maybe there's a another reason why the finer details haven't been announced yet.


All Alan's verbal slip did was give the folk in the tower a weekend of palpitations, and cause him to look pretty damn silly when he clumsily recanted knowing full well there would be an official announcement in less than a month. After that they stopped doing the headless chicken dance, realised no real harm had been done to that project and just carried on with the gameplan. As Mark hinted, the project has been underway for some time and recently switched into high gear. Speaking for myself I'd rather he and Alan Boyd got on with doing what they do rather than keep us up to speed with every development. Which is exactly what they're doing, being eminently sensible fellows.  ;D

Al said "Sometime this summer", but Capitol has yet to say that officially.  The Grammy awards have never been taken seriously by Rock musicians or fans. Here's why: after awarding The Beatles a "best new artist" award in 1964, NARAS didn't award a Grammy to a self containing(singing/playing/writing) rock group again, until 1976, when they gave some awards to The Doobie Brothers. As a result, they glaringly ignored some of rock's greatest works. Some voting members(session musicians and tin-pan alley songwriters) felt that their livelihoods were being threatened by groups that  followed The Beatles' example and didn't need to use outside writers or backing musicians unless they chose to, while some have surmised that some voting members didn't want them long-haired hippie types being the industry's ambassadors to the public.
                              
Here's some examples of Grammy's questionable judgement: Elvis Presley & Bob Dylan received their only Grammys for their religious music, and, in one competition between "Emerson Lake & Palmer", Chase(a Jazz-Rock horn band) &  "Hamilton,Joe Frank & Reynolds", the award went to (you guessed it), Hamilton,Joe Frank and Reynolds.......presumably because they were a vocal group(I.E. they weren't a self-contained band and had to employ sessionmen).

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

None of that applies to the category The Smile Sessions qualifies for: Best Historical Album. According to a voting member of the NARAS I've been talking to, that's a very prestigious category.  Hopefully there's no New Vaudeville Band 1966 Sessions box out before 10/1/11.

Anyhoo... you carry on playing a combination of Doubting Thomas and Victor Meldrew, and I'll carry on waiting for a release I never really thought I would see.  :)

PS: if this be so - "NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people" - care to explain why "Good Vibrations" & Pet Sounds didn't win multiple Grammys ?

Hey it's true the history of who won grammy's and who didin't is a total embarrasement.
But that does not mean musicians, artists, bands and producers don't care. One has
nothing to do with the other. Believe me people would like to win.

What in the world could that have to do with the release of SMiLE anyway ? the surviving
Beach Boys and the record company would certainly like the prestige,and the publicity
of winning a grammy, that would help sell more copies, get more press and accolades.
I'm sure they would release in time for the grammy cut off date if possible.

The Grammy's are really bad at awarding a seminal album like Sgt Pepper or Pet Sounds
 at the time of release, but they are very good at offering awards forty years later.
Wasn't Paul McCartney just doing Helter Skelter last year at 67 years of age?  He was
totally snubbed in his prime, but now they bend over backwards to get him involved. I
would imagine the same thing will happen With SMiLE, the grammy people will say they
always knew SMiLE was one of the great works of all time :-D

Because, The Beach Boys(or Brian specifically) were Choosing to use sessionmen. With much longer, more frustrating & difficult sessions, Brian could have made the records with The Beach Boys playing. Like many producers in that era, who opted to use sessionmen instead of group members on backing tracks, it was because the sessionmen could cut the tracks more quickly, and being trained musicians, they could take instructions from a producer more easily. That was how Mark Lindsay explained the use of sessionmen on Paul Revere & The Raiders records starting in late 1966, through 1967 & 1968. The Beach Boys were, on stage(in the mid-1960's) a self-contained band, of the type which some NARAS members despised.

Wait, so The Beach Boys' lack of grammy success is down to their flaunting the session musician culture of ye olde days, and their lack of grammy success is also down to the fact they used huge armies of them on their most successful productions? Explain how that makes sense, please.

Back then(in the 1960's) The Beach Boys almost never publicly spoke about the use of session musicians on their records(remember The Monkees scandal, when it was revealed that they hadn't played the instruments on their first 2 albums?). The only known time in the 1960's when any of them publicly mentioned session musicians, was when Dennis was asked to name his favorite drummer, and he mentioned Hal Blaine, describing him as "a percussionist who sometimes plays on our records", not mentioning that he often drummed instead of Dennis. The Beach Boys' public appearance(on stage) as a self-contained band was sufficient to be affacted by NARAS' 1965-1975 anti-rock group blacklist.

I should note, that in the eyes of NARAS(and the attitudes they held in the late 1960's & early 1970's), there was a difference between a group that was basically(at least on stage) self-contained, and occasionally used sessionmen in the studio, and a strictly non-writing, non-playing vocal group which had to employ sessionmen because few or any of the group members could play an instrument. NARAS members obviously felt more comfortable with vocals-only, non-playing, non-writing entities such as "The Fifth Dimension", who didn't threaten the establishment's obsolete pre-Beatles view that singers sang, writers wrote and players played. The idea was that performers who could do all three of these things would put some people out of work. Remember, when Carole King reluctantly became a recording artist and performer, it was because more artists & groups were writing their own songs, reducing the need for traditional, office-based songwriters such as King. Remember, The Monkees were Don Kirshner's last gasp attempt to continue the music establishment's system of placing office-based  non-performing songwriters' songs with singers, but, in the end, The Monkees(as a matter of pride) also wanted to follow The Beatles example and write songs.

Phil, I don't need the spurious lecture about why Brian used session players - I've been up to speed on the why, when, who and where of that for a couple of decades: my point, which you've entirely avoided, is that you claim the NARAS folk favoured a "type of group who gave lots of work to session people", as Brian did on "GV " and Pet Sounds - ergo, if your claim has any validity, both those records should have won Grammys. So... why didn't they ? The voting members of the NARAS were well aware of what happened in the studio.

As were the press and most of the teen-mag reading world. Articles were written detailing Brian in the studio with session musicians, how he wasn't using the boys on his records, and the Dennis quote you mention also features the interviewer asking whether they can get the sound of GV without all the extraneous musicians, and so on. It was hardly a big secret!

...but The Beach Boys(mostly) recorded original material. Groups like The Fifth Dimenson didn't, and they provided work for (mostly) non-performing writers. Yes, you'll note that Jimmy Webb & Laura Nyro(who wrote songs for The Fifth Dimension) were also performers....but not commercially successful. Their primary income was in writing for others. NARAS favored non-playing, non-writing vocal groups. The Beach Boys had two writers in house, composer Brian Wilson & lyricist Mike Love, and The Beach Boys occasionally played instruments in the studio(though rarely on "Pet Sounds" & "Smile")

Or is it...


Phil... work out what you're trying to say, construct an argument that's both logical and not self-contradictory, and doesn't require further qualification every time I pick a hole in it, then get back to us.

I'm not denying the NARAS have made some outstandingly dumbass awards in the past, but according to your basic tenet, you use session musicians in the mid/late 60s, cool, have a Grammy. And yes, I'm oversimplifying  for effect (and the yucks), but that's essentially what you said originally.

Oh, and this ?


First album - five Jimmy Webb originals.

Second album - aside from one Beatles cover left over from the first album sessions, entirely Webb originals (11).

Andrew, the proof is in the pudding: the choices for Grammy Awards 1965-1975 made NARAS' anti-rock views obvious. The greatest rock music of those years was repeatedly snubbed by NARAS, making The Grammys a total joke to people whose childhood or teenage years were during that era......such as myself.

...and don't write any songs of your own(but rather use old-school office-based songwriters), and yeah, in that era, COOL: have a Grammy. That's exactly what I'm saying.

No argument there... but I'm talking about the Grammys now, not 35 years ago. Aside from a communal brain fart by the NARAS voting members next spring, I cannot foresee any scenario in which The Smile Sessions doesn't win Best Historical Album (assuming it gets released before 10/1/11, and I have every confidence it will be).

Yes, The Grammys have changed a little bit in the past 3 decades; they started a "Heavy Metal" award.....then gave the first "Best Heavy Metal Group" award........to Jethro Tull.(not exactly heavy metal). If I were a musician, I would consider the greatest and most relevant award to be hit records, sold out concerts and audience loyalty.

Forget Sulpy's book (rubbish!). But don't forget the notes by a certain rogerlancelot.....  ;) Unlike Sulpy, I HAVE listened to the whole damn thing (more than once).

By "Original" I mean written by a member of the group. Webb wasn't a member of The Fifth Dimension.

I think you'll find that when talking about a band/artist doing 'original' material, the overwhelming majority of folk mean "not cover versions of existing songs", i.e "Sloop John B" or "Misty Roses".

I Think Simon and Garfunkel won a number of Grammy's and Simon
wrote all their tunes.

Maybe who won had more to do with which record companies did the best political wrangling.
Perhaps the voting members tended to be older and square and generally thought
the records they picked to win were best.

I remember blanching in a meeting in the late eighties, when a senior record company
executive associated with MCA, told me things like Elvis were good and wholesome
but most of the rest was just fringe music that would come and go. He was probably
a voting member of NARAS at one time.

I don't know if anyone can ever explain the picks the Grammy committee's made over
the years, in retrospect they seem even more awful than they did at the time.

I'm sure Capitol and the Beach Boys would still like to win one for SMiLE however.


Perhaps the future of Classic Rock Outtakes lies in something new like, selling
multitasks so people can mix their own. Or some new physical format to replace
the CD. Or perhaps going to more recent bands from the eighties or nineties
and hyping their outtakes the way sixties and seventies bands have been hyped
up until now. Maybe there are second tier bands from the sixties, that haven't had
their catalogues plundered for outtakes yet. Maybe when the major bands are depleted
in the archives, maybe some of these second tier bands will become bigger than
they ever were in the sixties and seventies until the hunger from us older fans
dies off, as we begin to die off. I cant wait to see what happens next!

How do you sell multitasks?

Over the years, as studio technology changed, going to 24 & 48 tracks, and, in particular, after the changeover to digital tape, and then to hard drive-based recording systems, it became more commonplace for recordings to be built up one instrument at a time(or perhaps even be computer-programmed using digital samples of drum sounds), and not have their basis in a basic live-in-the-studio take with a group of musicians playing together. I would say that for artists from the late 80's onward, there may be alternate mixes(with some different vocal or instrumental elements), but(generally) no entirely alternate takes as there were in the 4-track, 8-track & 16-track analogue tape era. I doubt that an artist(if you could call her that) like Madonna has any alternate takes, though she may have truckloads of alternate mixes.

O.K.: let's assume that Alan Boyd, Mark Linett & The Beach Boys are seeking a Grammy for "The Smile Sessions". There will be some serious competition from "Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc "Immersion" box set. The "Smile" box will have to be incredible to win a Grammy.

LOL

MULTI TRACKS... I had trouble getting the thing to correct the spelling.

As far as Pink Floyd competing against The Beach Boys for the Historical grammy

The American group has the edge with the voting members of the academy I would
think.. and there could be two different categories, SMiLE was never released and the
FLoyd albums were, they are just being re-released



I would think, technically SMiLE is eligible for plain old rock or pop album of the year
as it's a new release, when it was recorded is sort of irrelevant, technically is that not so?

Serious competition indeed, and given the scale of the Floyd's reissue programme, not just from Dark Side of the Moon.

However, as Gilmour attended one of the 2002 RFH Pet Sounds gigs (he was in the row behind me), perhaps he'll generously stand aside by delaying the reissue's 'til 2012.

Fair point... but Smile has one huge ace up the sleeve: it was never released. This is the... what, fourth, fifth reissue of DSOTM ?. Even Floyd fans, on hearing the news of the latest reissue series, are going "again ?". The Smile project is truly historic.

Not likely. Unlike The Beach Boys' "Smile" box, Pink Floyd has revealed the tracklistings(and photos of the finished products) for the first three "Immersion box sets("The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc, "Wish You Were Here" 6-disc & "The Wall" 7-disc), and there will be further large box sets in 2012. Drummer Nick Mason has admitted that it will be a "race against time" to get their complete series of box sets released while the record companies are still releasing physical product.
On the other hand, the "Smile Sessions" box is in such an uncertain, unfinalized state that EMI isn't able to reveal a tracklisting.

Yes, but this reissue(the 6-disc box set) of "The Dark Side of The Moon" has something that no previous reissue did: unreleased live & studio material.

Well, people, there you have it - obviously Phil doesn't want The Smile Sessions released, and even if they are (and imagine his pain !), he sure as hell doesn't want them to win the 2012 Grammy for Best Historical Album.  ;D

Phil's gotta valid point. The SMiLE set has always appeared to be a wonderful package but the newly announced Floyd sets do appear to exceptionally well-hung, as it were. SMiLE has the historical edge for sure, but the Grammy judges might well be blinded by the sheer quantity associated with the Floyd set.

Let's hope SMiLE's freshness, the luxuriance of the box set and the dedication of Mark and Alan wins the recognition it deserves.  Quality vs quantity perhaps!

I DO want "The Smile Sessions" to be released, but the Pink Floyd sets have now been compiled, the tracklistings for 2 of the 3 Floyd "Immersion" box sets have been revealed, and they are certain to be released, while an air of uncertainty hangs over the "Smile" box. Based on what we know at this point, The Pink Floyd "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc box set will be difficult to beat in a contest over "Best Historical Release". If the "Smile" box will be equally impressive, I say "Show us what you've got!". The Pink Floyd projects are well into the mastering and manufacturing stages, while The Beach Boys "Smile Sessions" box still looks like what the computer industry calls "Vaporware"; advertised, but non-existent product.

Artists rework, re-record, and demo songs all the time. To say there is some kind of a shortage of that kind of material in general is a little too broad.

Many bands today have setups where any band member can work up a demo on their Mac laptop either at home or on the road, and some have full blown studios where they can either get the ideas together or start tracking the actual parts of a song. Shades of Tom Scholz with Boston, Pete Townshend...heck, the entire "Lifehouse" set was Townshend doing that very same thing, and those "demos" which are closer to all-out takes before the other band members got to them, are fascinating and very enjoyable listening.

This goes back several pages: I'm confused as to why there is an issue with the semantics throughout this discussion between alternate takes, alternate mixes, etc. No matter what the technology may develop into, there will always be different mixes and different versions of songs in an artist's archives. And demos of those songs will exist too - that never changes. Fans will always want to hear that stuff, some more than others. It will be a chance to hear a familiar song in a different way, and to me that is a neat opportunity.

But I see no signs of that drying up. Again maybe I'm just not clear on the semantics being debated.

I don't understand how, a Pink Floyd re-issue program, where they are releasing the same
albums for the fourth, fifth or sixth time, can be in the same category with an album that is
being released for the first time. That is SMiLE by the Beach Boys. SMiLE has never been issued.
Some various versions of some of the songs appeared on several different albums and singles.
But the SMiLE recordings have for the most part not been issued. How can this be the same category
as old Pink Floyd albums that have already been through the Grammy process in years past.


As to re-issues going on endlessly. I think the majority of the seminal bands and artists. Beatles
Dylan, The Who, Beach Boys, Kinks, CSNY, Pink Floyd, Byrds etc etc. I think at this late date
most of those previously unreleased songs and alternate takes and mixes, have already
been issued and are available.

So I think it is fair to say what else can they do? The people who care most about these bands
are generally perhaps 40-70 years of age, as we die off, what purpose does it serve to issue
the albums yet again?

Floyd is a special case in that they were so succesful, and they are such a visual band with so much
fancy conert footage they can assemble along with the albums.

I can see a few more seminal bands with archival material yet to be released, but after that, then what?

sell the multitracks so geeks can mix their own versions. The new Cedar software used on the Beatle
rockband game, showed you can take old sixties recordings with everything locked together on one track
and seperate it, so you could then sell Pet Sounds or Sgt Pepper for 89 bucks on multitrack!


What about using computer technology to create new songs as the new Tron Movie made Jeff Bridges
appear 30 years old in certain scenes in the film when he was actually sixty.

I don't know if technology can do that yet, create virtual new beach boy or beatle songs, But I bet they will
be able to do that within a decade

In this case are these alternate versions of released songs,official releases of booted live songs(presumably in better quality) or songs that have never been released at all?
Simply for myself, I don't care, unless they are never released songs.



I fall on the side of a definite release. Their( Capitol/EMI) plan was upset by Al's announcement, so a quickie statement was released, but this isn't a "vaporware" release. Capitol/EMI is simply playing it close to the vest, until Alan and Mark get all their ducks in a row; then they'll announce the details/ tracklists.  If it was a non-existent product, there's no way they would have announced the different versions

I'll stand alongside those who believe it's happening.

Not into this "show us what you've got" though, Phil.  If the set's delayed until Christmas – or beyond – to allow Mark and Alan to give it what they feel it needs, I'll be happy.  Al's statement already seems to have created an unnecessary rush, and this project is too special to rush.

I do have one question for the experts here.

We know SMiLE is being issued fairly soon. (this year)
and we know the Pink Floyd are re-issuing the entire catalogue
with bonus material, and various sonic upgrades.

Is it certain, SMiLE is the only album coming from the Beach Boys
or could they be working on a multi album release like Pink Floyd.

I obviously don't have an answer for you but the bottom line with all archival releases is if a band releases one archival release and it sells well, it might encourage them to release more from the vaults in the future.  Probably not the answer you wanted but if "SMiLE" puts up figures in line or exceeding what is expected of it, we might see more releases from The Beach Boys' archive in the next several years.

As far as other groups that I'd like to see archival releases from?  Judging from the little snippets that are included on "The Mamas & Papas Anthology" box set, some of their vocal sessions seem almost as much of a trip as some of The Beach Boys vocal sessions.  I'd love to hear me some more of that!

Unfortunately, the ABC, ABC/Dunhill, ABC Probe & ABC/Bluesway labels did not save multitracks, so, by the time that MCA Records bought the labels, nearly all of the label's multitrack tapes(excepting SOME Steely Dan albums) were long gone.

Currently it's the only Beach Boys project in the works.

Man that sucks.  I knew something was off too with how little information there is on "The Mamas & Papas" recording sessions such as tracking and vocal dates etc.  I know both John and Michelle Phillips mentioned that they didn't have any unreleased songs in the can besides what they released on their albums.  I found that hard to believe but it's probably more representative of the fact that they don't have any unreleased material at their disposal since the breakup of the group that they could've released.  Pity.

Their sessions from how Michelle described them seemed like a trip as well with a lot of goofing around, carousing and drinking which probably would've made for some great bootleg fodder if the multi-tracks still existed.  

These nicely packaged  reissues of classic material really kept me going there for awhile but I haven't seen too many lately.  I did hear the kinks were rereleasing their catalogue.  I really enjoyed Zombies and Love packages a couple years back.  Fine stuff I enjoyed even more the second time around.  I've yet to hear very much of the Cameo Parkway rereleases.  Anybody care to comment on those?

Anyhow, as someone said, now is the time to clean up and rerelease all of that old material before the aging boomer audience ,who still purchase CDs, is gone or slips into fixed income and decides to pass (Either pass  it by or simply pass on  ;)

As for whichever box set(Pink Floyd, Beach Boys or somebody else) may win a Grammy, may the best box set win. With these sort of mega box sets, the industry has invented a product where the only way to get 100% of the content of the original is to buy the original. Yes, the CD's can be cloned, and if you have an anti-encryption program, the DVD's can be cloned. But few consumers have a blu-ray burner(and Blu-Ray anti-encryption program) on their computer. But even if you've got all those things, you won't be able to exactly duplicate memorabilia, posters, books, the outer box etc.

Speaking of the Zombies, they have a new album out "Breathe Out, Breathe In" which sounds pretty good!  Only available on iTunes in the US, at the moment. Amazon in the UK.

This is actually the second new Zombies album. The other being from 2004. Both new Zombies albums sound very similar
in terms of texture and songwriting. Argent wrote all the tunes, and he wrote some very good songs. Not classics like Time of
Season or She's Not There, but good songs nonetheless. Blunstone sings most of the lead vocals (Argent sings a few) they
sound fab fab fab. Amazingly this is only the sixth Zombies studio album .The two new albums are so similar they almost sound
as if they were all written and recorded at the same time.Jim Rodford is the bass player, I guess he replaced Pete Quaife in the Kinks
back in the seventies.Chris White The other original Zombie sings on the 2004 album doing harmonies,but not on the brand new CD

I'd put down good money to bet that the multi-tracks from 'People Like Us' still exist only outtakes from these sessions 'Fantastic Four', and an early version of the track 'No Dough' were released on a reissue of John Phillips' Jack of Diamonds album, also the album was still pretty recent when Dunhill were trashing them.

The multi-tracks of "Dedicated to The One I Love", "Look Through My Window" and "My Girl" still exist (or at least survived much longer than the others.. they were used by Steve Hoffman on the compilation "16 of Their Greatest Hits" in 1986), the reason being, John had taken them out to experiment with quad mixes.

There was film shot inside Western Studio 3 of a Mamas And Papas vocal session, in 1967 for a special on ABC at the time. I have only seen a precious few seconds of this on some random Mamas and Papas documentary years ago...but it is in full color and quite awesome as far as I remember.

Just wondering if anyone may know more about this, as it's been awhile since I actively searched for info on that piece of film.

Actually "Breathe Out, Breathe In" is the Zombies fourth new studio album since 1991.

1991 - "New World"

2001 - "Out of the Shadows" (billed as Blunstone/Argent for legal reasons) Great album

2004 - "As Far As I Can See"

2011 - "Breathe Out, Breathe In"

I also highly recommend Colin Blunstone's 2009 "The Ghost Of You & Me".  A sequel, of sorts, musically, to "One Year" (One of my favorite all time albums)

Well technically that's true. about the Zombies, but the 1991 album does not have
Rod  Argent involved, so personally I wouldn't count that one.


Steve Hoffman Mama's and Papa's.. ?   He remastered quite a bit of ABC Dunhill or
just them?

The legendary Ken Scott of Beatle and David Bowie (and Supertramp) fame had
some very interesting things to say about Steve Hoffman. In Scott's view Hoffman
is a megalomaniac, and  to use his words "glorified cutting engineer"
I don't see how anyone could disagree. There are also stories about many
tapes that went missing. speaking of missing tapes and multis. and Hoffman.

Richie Podolor used to have quarter inch and half inch copies of all his Three Dog Night
and Steppenwolf Dunhill work, I wonder if anyone ever asked him about it, or just
went by the ABC archives list.

I enjoy the first three or four albums after SmileySmile is there any chance of a box
set for that material, wild honey, friends, 20/20 sunflower.surf's Up.. I guess that's five albums
the last great Brian Wilson Beach Boys tracks as the rest of the group began to fill the void
or take over.

Even if the band were to consider issuing every known unreleased outtake, appending the ones that have been released, and maybe adding the prerequisite stereo remixes, backing tracks, a cappellas, and related live material, you'd probably have a four-disc set at most. And I highly doubt it. But we've been surprised before, so...

Not true. All the original members appear.  I have the album.  Rod plays keys on the  "Time of the Season" remake.  PLEASE, do some research when posting here.  I'm no AGD when it comes to the BB but I follow the Zombies closely.

Anyway, how can you not count it?  Chris White is on there, and it's called the Zombies.  Colin sings lead.  I guess the post Bon Scott albums shouldn't be called AC-DC.  Members do leave bands.

Take it easy friend. Yes I was aware, Rod Argent did participate on the one song, The remake of the 1968 Time of Season. But he did not participate
on any of the other songs. I guess it would be akin to The Stones without Keith Richards or the Who without Pete Townshend.I find that Blunstone
and Argent are the two irreplacable members of the Zombies, so for me the 1991 album doesn't really count because Argent only appears on the one
track the remake. The other member of the Band I think is really important is Chris White and I wish he had participated more but even so, with Argent
and Blunstone both involved from my point of view it is the Zombies. Argent wrote all the Zombies hit singles and the majority of their material, sang some
of the leads , played the keyboards ,produced and arranged, sang a lot of the backround vocals, I just don't see how you can call it the Zombies when
his involvment was almost nil on that album. Just a matter of opinion I suppose. But I do love both of the recent albums. and I think they sound like two peas
in a pod, nice matching bookend albums.

Ha, yeah. But you said " the 1991 album does not have Rod  Argent involved".  In addition to White, New World had original drummer Hugh Grundy doing all the drums.

Chris White  actually wrote more Zombie material than Rod.  Check out "Odessey and Oracle".  Some might argue it ain't the Zombies without Chris White.

Bottom line, saying "New World: isn't really a Zombies album is not correct.  That Rod wrote their three hits, I'll give you that.

Yes technically you are correct. Rod Argent participates on one song on the 1991 Zombies album.
To me that is minimal participation, Argent to my way of thinking is a core member of the Zombies
and without more participation from him, I don't think of it as really being the Zombies.

I was bothered greatly that Chris White barely participated in the two recent Zombies studio albums.
I  think White was a core member also. However in my judgement, my way of thinking, if you have
Argent and Blunstone you can say its bonafide Zombies. It bothers me without White, but you can
get away with it. But conversely without Argent to my way of thinking you can't. Argent's signature
keyboard sound, the hit material he wrote, his vocals and arranging, the two must have members
are Argent and Blunstone. Believe me I hesitate to call it The Zombies without Chris White, but as long
as you have the other two, I guess you can get away with it. As much as I like some of Rod Argent's
new songs on the two most recent albums. With Chris White as the other songwriter creating a foil
and contrast I'm sure I would have liked both albums even better..


I'm really hoping this forthcoming SMiLE will be fantastic and bring a little focus back to this era in music
which I think is just the most fertile, and productive ever. 1964-1972 something like that. Of course all
era's have some great music. Though I would be hard pressed to name anything recent that rises to that level.

I was really hoping Cream would do a new studio album when they got back together.Apparently Jack Bruce and
Ginger Baker cannot get along for more than about five minutes.

Weezer, Fleet Foxes, Beachwood Sparks, Stereolab, Aphex Twin, Bebel Gilberto, Charlotte Gainsbourg, Lady Gaga...plenty of stuff. Open your ears and especially your mind.

Yes I am familiar with some of the work from those artists you mentioned. Some of them are ok, I would never mention them as
being on the same level as The Beatles or Beach Boys or Bob Dylan, Pete Townshend, Paul Simon, Hendrix, not even close.
It's all subjective of course. But to mention Lady  Ga Ga or  Weezer as equals to Brian Wilson with Pet Sounds or Smile or the
Beatles With Abbey Road or Rubber Soul or Simon and Garfunkel or Janis Joplin or Hendrix, it's just not so. For whatever reason
rock was more fertile then than it is now.Part of it of course is my mindset and prejudices or preferences, but realistically the artists
today have not proven themselves to be equal with their own Tommy or Bridge over Troubled Water or Pet Sounds. My one friend
is wild over Radio head, I listened to two of their albums at his insistence, and I thought, why does he think they are great? I Listened to
Lady Ga Ga, I thought well she has some talent, she writes songs and sings, but I don't like it much. I listen to Weezer occasionally
I like them a bit. I don't think much of Green Day. I liked this goup Collective Soul a little bit. Coldplay is ok. Oasis is ok, but none of
them are really great.Not compared to Electric Ladyland or Pet Sounds or Sgt Pepper, not even in the same league. No to me anyway.

Weezer is a great, great band, well at least the blue album and Pinkerton, with the attendant b-sides. But I don't know if they are quite at the point of Brian and co.

But yeah there is a lot of bands/artists that are still great. I used to have a rule that there was hardly any good music that came out after 1974, but yeah there is still lots of great from the past 20 or so years, stuff like Animal Collective, Sufjan Stevens, Radiohead, Dr. Dre, Nirvana, Elliott Smith, Elvis Costello, etc.

I read that Chris co-wrote some of the new songs though I haven't seen credits.  He is doing a live gig in London with the band, as is Hugh Grundy.  I agree that Argent's keyboard sound is essentila but so was David Marks guitar, and Denny's voice but the BB carried on.

Indeed, all of those are great. Some of the best music nowadays is coming out of the hip-hop, and, surprisingly, metal areas. If they're your cup of tea you'll find much to love.

Wolfmother is awesome too, although the constant comparisons to Zeppelin and Blue Cheer hurt them. They're much more than just a derivative. Nas and Outkast are about the best you'll find in hip-hop nowadays. Taylor Swift has much more potential than her music seems to imply; the whole "top 40 with fiddles/steel guitars" country scene needs to go. Jazmine Sullivan is probably the best modern R&B artist. The black and death metal scenes are still producing some great groups. Case in point, to Mr. vintagemusic, there's ALWAYS good stuff out there; sometimes even in the "mainstream".

Jeez, totally forgot OutKast. As far as a rapper or musical artist in general, Andre 3000 is way more talented and original than most around today. Here's hoping he actually releases a solo or OutKast album sometime soon.

Oh and I know this is totally even more off-topic, but I gotta say its funny Macca is doing a standards cover album. Seems like a very "Brian" type of idea, doesn't seem very McCartney-esque.

I believe some forms of music, that is some genres are more valid than others.I have a fairly broad mind musically, I can embrace anything from classical, to Led Zeppelin, to the Beach BOys to Beatles, Elivs Costello to Gershwin, and Tony Bennett.

But comparing rap, hip hop or Kid rock or outkast to The Beatles, Zeppelin, Gershwin or Chopin, is like comparing Scorsese or Kubrick
to some guy who makes industrial films for the installation of institutional bathrooms.

Much of today's newer music is in genres that are not worthy or valid, such as hiphop or rap or much of the metal music scene.
bad chords, melodies, words, vocals, lack of individuality. Just bad awful stuff.

This is why so many many many discerning older guys like me, buy re-issues of Pink FLoyd, the Beatles, The Beach Boys and Byrds.
As a musician, classic music fan, songwriter, I can't even imagine listening to something like Kid Rock, Lady Ga Ga or some speed metal
band and saying "oh I want to do that with my life"

Some of these bands  I have never heard, maybe Wolfmother is great. I have a feeling they aren't. I don't mean to sound rude
I just have trouble even understanding how someone could think there was parity between Lady Ga Ga or hiphop and say Pet SOunds
or Sgt Pepper or Elvis Presley or Elvis Costello. Now I did just listen to Wolfmother.. and that is legitimate hard rock, its kind of like a rehash of
Black Sabbath from 35 years ago. I don't see what the fuss is about. But I will admit its legitimate hard rock.

To each their own I suppose, Gie me some more of that classic rock! Give me life, liberty and Classic rock!

I'm 26. There will always be the "old geezers" who don't get the music of the current generation. That's just life. Our parents now don't like stuff like Lady Gaga or Nas or similar stuff because "it's trash". People said the same about Nine Inch Nails in the mid-90s, about Madonna in the 80s, about Alice Cooper in the 70s, about the Beatles in the 60s, about Elvis Presley in the 50s, and so on. Taste is relative. Age doesn't mean someone can't enjoy another generation's music. It's your cup of tea or it isn't.

Just for a little tidbit of fun...anyone ever heard Brian talk about new wave? Back in the 80s he raved about it. That's not "his generation's music". Point is that great music transcends trends and tastes. Same reason I have no problem listening to Hildegard of Bingen, J.S. Bach, Louis Armstrong, Bing Crosby, Woody Guthrie, Elvis Presley, Serge Gainsbourg, Johnny Cash, the Beach Boys, Steve Reich, Os Mutantes, Alice Cooper, Venom, Madonna, Napalm Death, Nine Inch Nails, Emperor, Weezer, Nas, Taylor Swift, or Lady Gaga back to back. It's great music. All of this limiting of the "great music" to a certain period is revisionist Rolling Stone bullshit and DOES NOT belong in music appreciation. Ever notice how music polls nowadays basically ignore stuff before the 1960s? That's almost a thousand years of written music just disregarded, like it never fucking happened. Christ, even the Elvis Presley promotional propaganda machine likes to say that "before Elvis, there was nothing"; never mind the fact that Elvis lived and breathed all kinds of great music. That's not only sad, it's WRONG. This stuff cannot be regulated to the footnotes of the music history books. That goes for the classics and the new stuff today. Period.

Well That's true every older generation , dismisses newer music, I remember
my grandfather saying how great Al Jolson was, and my Father Frank Sinatra
and me the Beatles and Beach Boys .

Conversely every new generation thinks it knows everything and dismisses
older music that came before, and talks about stuff that will usually be forgotten
as great stuff.

But to each there own. This thread however is about the future of Classic Rock!
upcoming releases, re-releases and things like that. If you love Lady Ga Ga power to you.

As far as SMiLE as I understand it, the first disc on the set, will be as close an approximation
to the intended SMiLe as possible. Or as close to a finished album as possible. With the most
complete mix possible for each song. This disc will all be in mono.


So my question to the experts is this. Will one of the discs have a stereo representation of
the same thing as disc one ? I understand Brian Wilson heard everything in mono, and I understand
stereo was very primitive in mid 66 to mid 67, how many tracks did they have 4 or 8 ? not many.
but "new" stereo mixes woud be cool from my point of view. Unless almost everything is locked
together on the available masters. Onto one channel. I suppose it's going to ary from song to song
and they will not have multitracks for everything? or they will ?

and in the case of SMiLE  what does multi track really mean? are we talking pre-bounced pre pingponged
master tapes, or master tapes that have already been reduced? That would certainly limit any stereo
mixes.