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I've never really got on with 20/20. I have a chronological playlist of the BB that I listen to but I always skip to Sunflower after Friends. Anyway, I thought this was a shame given that so many great songs were cut during this period, so I thought I'd reshuffle it and create a more Brian-centric version. What I'm loving about this sequence is that it fits so much better with the feel of Wild Honey and Friends. I suspect this is down to the focus on Brian songs.

Also I've tried to sequence it with a kind of narrative and loose concept revolving around a dream but also themes of ageing, lost love, memories and death. Ok it's a much darker, sadder album than its predecessors, but then a lot of the songs at that time seem to be about loneliness and sorrow. Here's the sequence with notes on the story that could accompany it:

Do It Again - a great opener, setting the scene for an album about looking back.
Old Folks/Old Man River - Taking things down a couple of notches: Our narrator in his twighlight years turning his thoughts to the simpler pleasures of childhood: The river, cotton fields etc.
I Went To Sleep - He drifts off into a dream ...
Time To Get Alone - ... of a past love affair.
Sail Plane Song - The dream takes a psychedelic twist, the nightmarish circus organ signalling a turn for the worse ....
Walk On By - Within the dream, a brief flashback of a broken love affair.
Can't Wait Too Long - the pain of longing for the lost love
A Time To Live In Dreams - Dennis creates the heart of the album: a redemptive song where the narrator begins to make sense of the wrong turns in his life
Celebrate The News - His luck is changing
We're Together Again - Reunited with the lover
Breakaway - success in breaking away from the lonely life (maybe the moment of his death - always sounds like a good funeral song to me. Maybe it's just me though). The lyrics fit the story of a dream perfectly:  When I layed down on my bed, I heard voices in my head, Telling me now "Hey it's only a dream"
Old Man River (Vocal Section) - so maybe the narrator has slipped off to a better place, but having finally made peace with painful memories.

Ok so it would certainly be a bit of a downer, and not necessarily Mike Love's cup of tea but I think the old guy theme would've made for a groovy concept in 69 - a bit like Bookends.

Any thoughts, similar 'conceptual' reshufflings of 20/20 or other albums to offer?

Edit: Taking on board some of the suggestions in this thread, I've adjusted the lineup slightly and an really enjoying this 'alternate 20/20' now. As I explained, I'd always written the album off a bit based on what I hear as lack of cohesiveness, but it's interesting to see just how many people really rate this album and why. I'm not saying this is better - just more appealing to me, and an interesting glimpse of what a more Brian directed 20/20 might have sounded like!

Anyway fwiw, here's my revised lineup.

Side A:
Do It Again
Old Folks at Home/Old Man River
I Went To Sleep
Time To Get Alone
Sail Plane Song
Never Learn Not To Love

Side B:
Break Away
Walk On By
Can't Wait Too Long
A Time To Live In Dreams
We're Together Again
Celebrate The News
Old Man River (Vocal Section)

Rookie mistake.

Maybe it should be called "Hindsight" instead of "Redux"? Just sayin'.

yeah I just sought of meant in sort of restoring the album in my own mind but Hindsight is a genius twist on the title!

Ha ha! Every album is sacred to somebody in this place . It's not all bad, but it's a substantial dip in quality to these ears.

I like it.

Buddha, I like your sequence, and think it would probably sound far better than the actual album.  I think Be With Me and Never Learn Not to Love could be good in there too, but I certainly wouldn't miss tunes like Nearest Faraway Place or All I Want to Do.

I think this points out how extaordinarily bad the Beach Boys were at selecting tracks for their albums.  Most of us can pretty easily compile "albums" from contemporaneous tracks that are superior to what was released.

Huh...20/20 is my 3rd favorite BB album (right after Friends and Sunflower)....

Thanks fellas. Jeff I agree that they did seem to make some pretty poor calls in what they left off albums at that time. Perhpas in the case of songs like been too long they were just assuming brian would piece if together for the next album. Who knows. Can nver figure out why that didn't get finished.

I toyed with Be With Me and Never Learn but let them off as they're just not favourites. They'd certainly fit the mood but I can never get past the Manson connection with the latter. Maybe that could be the dark heart of the album, right after Sail Plane Song! Mmm ... might have to reconsider ...

I'd move Time To Get Alone and I Went to Sleep onto Friends, and I'd turn 20/20 into an ep with Breakaway.

Time to Get Alone's production is too big for Friends. Went to Sleep would definitely work.

...except the vocals weren't recorded and the track wasn't finished until a few months after Friends was released.

Well, you certainly wouldn't be the first person to be spooked by the Manson connection, but personally I only hear Dennis, so I've managed to put Manson out of my mind.  I like placing Never Learn right after Be With Me--a long fade out followed by a long fade in.  No doubt a lot of people would be annoyed by the silence, but it sounds good to me.

I don't think we're going by the actual time-line here, Billy...

20/20 is fine just the way it is. No need to be a Brian centric album, mainly because it is a Beach Boys album. Brian is well represented on the album anyway.

A-f*cking-men.



I know, but there was so little done on IWTS during Friends that there's no way in hell it could have ever been released on that album. It's like saying Sloop John B should've been released on Party.

In many ways I think 20/20 might be the Beach Boys best and most accessible album. Each Beach Boy gets to shine while Brian still being a dominating presence. It rocks out nicely in places and gets a bit darker there at the end. It's production is loose/unfussy but still sounds great. And on top of all that, it boasts a killer hit single!

It shows the Beach Boys as pretty with their times while still being themselves.

20/20 was the weakest album they did since All Summer Long. Nearest Faraway Place stinks, the smile tracks don't work, Brian's version of Cottonfields is turgid, Bluebirds is passable but Mike was the wrong choice for the lead. All I Want to Do and Never Learn Not To Love are forgettable, and along with Got To Know the Woman betray a clear post-White Album Beatles influence that I don't think he carried very well.
Be With Me and I Can Hear Music are the really good tracks on 20/20.
I think Do It Again should have been kept a single, and Time to Get Alone and I Went To Sleep are too Brian-y and sound more at home on other projects.

20/20 is where the band shoots off on their own, out of Brian's shadow, but it's loaded down with a bunch of random stuff that makes it sound like it was slapped together at the last minute from whatever was available. It's all over the place, full of decent songs that don't really work in tandem for any purpose and the album as a result feels really slipshod and unfocused. In this case I think the Beach Boy's would've been helped by NOT releasing an album, just cooling their jets, taking the time to assemble some better material, and maybe asserting themselves with a few singles and/or an ep.

Hmmmm, guess we're not listening to the same album.

Got To Know The Woman's is on Sunflower and is decidedly non-Beatles and pretty decidedly Dennis if one is to pay attention to the lyrics.

But I dig what you're saying. I think that first time you listen to an album is where it really locks itself in and my first time hearing 20/20 was pretty special. I've heard/read all sorts of people slamming it and can agree with most of their points in theory, but if I'm ever stupid enough to toss on the album itself: I'm always hooked and smiling.

I like this lineup, but with one exception.  I would bump Sail Plane down to where you have Breakaway, and put Breakaway right after Can't Wait Too Long, putting it in the #7 slot, which would be the leadoff song to side two.  This would jazz things up a bit after a few somber songs, AND keep that "single leading off a side" thing that Capitol liked to do.  Make sense?

Change 20/20? Why? Its one of the best Beach Boys albums. Leave off "Be With Me"? What is this an April Fools thing? Must be.

Yeah, how about we remove God Only Knows off Pet Sounds and replace it with Smart Girls?

This does get silly.

Easy now!  It's just for fun.  Nobody's writing letters to Capitol.

@Fishmonk
Some albums are just collections of songs with no other statement other than to just enjoy it for what it is. And what is wrong with All Summer Long? Seriously, are you really a fan of this band?

Living, breating proof the negative effects of drugs!!

Being a fan of a band doesn't mean blindly arguing that everything they did was genius.  The Beach Boys were a band of extremes, and 20/20 is a great example of that.  Cabinessence, IMO, is one of the best things by any group in the rock era, while Nearest Faraway Place ... well, if I didn't know it was recorded in 1968, I would swear it was what van Gogh was listening to when he cut off his ear.

I support Buddahat!

It's particularly enjoyable to re-think The Beach Boys post-Smiley Smile output. The reason, I think, is because they had a lot of material that was repeatedly negotiated, omitted, etc. and there could have been endless variations of albums from that time period. An album like Sunflower, for example, had an entirely different lineup but The Beach Boys changed it dramatically for commercial reasons yet it nevertheless charted lower than any other Beach Boys album at that point. There is an ongoing tendency to wonder what could have been, especially since I think it pains some Beach Boys fans to consider that despite the fact that this period was so creative, it was also the period where everything seemed to go wrong.

Your Van Gogh line has me laughing on the floor! Too bad he never made it to "Summer of Love!"

@Jeff
I can only go by what I read in his posts. If he is willing to make comments like he does, then I have the right to ask questions. I've been called on my views on this board. I think I asked legitimate questions of him.

I like most of the songs on 20/20, I just don't like it as an album. I didn't say it was awful, just that it was weaker than any of the albums the band did since pre-1964. Geeze, don't freak out on me guys.

Did we switch places or something? Now you know how I felt on that OTHER thread:lol


In all seriousness though, I know what you mean. It doesn't flow well as an album as opposed to a collection of (great) songs. That said, I love the f*ck out of it...it sounds like an early run for Sunflower, which had the same diversity but more cohesiveness.


BTW...before anyone else calls me out for it (via Facebook or here)...there is a difference between me saying that I Went to Sleep couldn't have been included on Friends and my post about wishing Angel Come Home was on 15 Big Ones...there was more work done on ACH in 1974 than there was on IWTS during the Friends sessions.

20/20 depresses the hell out of me.

a hodge podge of less-than-stellar material by the boys.
the exclusion of Brian Wilson but the inclusion of Charles Manson.  ???
and a couple brilliant SMiLE fragments thrown on the end of it, totally out of context.


you done good, buddhahat  ;)

How was Brian excluded other than via self exclusion?

He's all over the album if you look closely.

And as far as Manson goes, at least Dennis managed to piss him off with Cease To Exist/Resist, which in turn lead to Dennis beating the merda out of Manson at a party!!! How can one not love 20/20 based on that fact alone?

I like 20/20 a lot, partly because it contains two of my all-time favorite BBs tracks:  "Cabinessence" and "Be With Me."   Having said that, I don't really dislike anything on it, but if you took those two tracks off, it would lose a lot of stars in my book.

I did enjoy reading the alternate "Brian" album though.  I could visualize it.  It NEVER would have happened though.

And as for murderers and The Beach Boys: ain't Jim Gordon all over their stuff?

Well, not ALL over.

This is really great!  Fishmonk and Billy DOO DOO have become "Vice Versa".  Ha HA!!!!!!
( I hope Judge is OK with this)

Mike Judge?

(http://www.deviantart.com/download/118356380/Beavis_and_Butt_head_by_spacecoyote.jpg)


Don't even have to look that closely :)  Really, the first album featuring very little of Brian was Holland- Brian was on So Tough a lot more than was previously realized...

Yeah, a lot of the "Brian had no involvement in anything post Smile" BS started back when all these albums in question were written off as pathetic crap created by the idiot-no-talent "other Beach Boys" and got 1 and a half or 2 stars in the All Music Guide and it's kin.... Now that these great albums have been rightly reappraised, it's been a hard road back to any sort of truth.

I've always thought 20/20 was better than Sunflower. At least 20/20 didn't have a corny misstep like "Tears in the Morning".

I love Tears In The Morning.

Eh. I don't really think the perception that Brian wasn't on these albums is unusual. I've always interpreted that in a broader sense, that 20/20 and on really don't have that Brian Wilson signature in the way the earlier albums do.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting that his contributions weren't significant. But going from almost-exclusive songwriter, producer, arranger, and a principal singer for ten-so albums to needing a disclaimer like "all over the album if you look closely" -- in just two years -- is comparatively little involvement in my book.


A "Nearest Faraway Place" fan, are we?  ;)

Thanks for the suggestion. I'd overlooked the side b lead single - very good point. I'm going to try it in the lineup just before Walk On By with the addition of Never Learn Not To Love in the track 7 slot.

Thanks rocknroll and others for the positive comments!

Apologies to those that might have taken offence. I should have put a caveat that my opinions about 20/20 were just that: opinions, and I like these type of album reimaginings: Just the smile mix mentality applied elsewhere! But I know it's frustrating when someone is down on an album you love. What I've learned from this board is that not much is sacred in BB fandom world and I think that's a healthy thing as long as we respect each other. About the only song I've never seen somebody claim not to like here is God Only Knows!

I also wasn't trying to minimise the other bandmembers' talents. FWIW, I tried a similar thing with Sunflower (focusing on Brian tracks in the lineup) and it resulted in a weaker album. Personally I just find 20/20 to feel more like a collection of songs than a cohesive album. I think they really got it together by the time of Sunflower, but from all accounts they had to work hard to get the balance of songs right.

I think that maybe 20/20 was more along the lines of Smiley Smile, that is "we need product, tomorrow !". 12 tracks, seven of which were holdovers from previous projects, odd single sides or isolated sessions. That it's as good as it is - and it is good - is the amazing thing.

Does anyone have info on Old Folks at Home/Old Man River, such as: Is the first section, presumably "Old Folks At Home" a Brian composition or a cover or what? It kind os sounds like those Gershwin chord things Brian does on the piano.

Also, isn't the instrumental break at 1.43 amazing? I love how Brian does these breaks that don't have any obvious soloing going on. They're quite simple and often percussive in nature. Johnny Carson has a similar thing going on.

"Old Folks At Home" (also generally known as "(Way Down Upon The) Swanee River")  is correctly credited to Stephen Foster in the 2fer where it first appeared. Unfortunately, said credit also gives the impression he wrote "Ol' Man River" too. Oops.

Thanks for the info  re: Stephen Foster, Andrew. I didn't know that.

I like 20/20.

Not so much a reshuffle, as a new album borrowing three songs from 20/20!

This may well be the most succinct post I've read on this board. Bravo!

Y'know, I hadn't actually realised I'd been so harsh on it, but I guess the list speaks for itself!

Maybe the biggest stumbling block for me is the presence of Prayer and Cabinessence. I spend so much time listening to Smile material that they never feel like they belong with 20/20. I have the same problem with GV on Smiley, but as the rest of the identity of that album is so strong, it can happily carry the mismatched production of Good Vibrations.

If it's any consolation I've now added Never Learn Not To Love, so that's four. The other way to look at it is that during 20/20 they were way ahead when it came to creating quality bonus material!

Maybe because, to a degree, it was ?

For a long time 20/20 was by far my fave album, due in no small part to the presence of Cabinessence – this at a time when I'd not yet learned of Smile so completely objective uninfluenced call!

NLNTL, BWM were big, deep, brooding productions that match TTGA and CabinE in scale an scope, so they all sit well with me, while Prayer, IWTS, ICHM are lighter songs but in a not dissimilar style that provide levity between the deeper stuff.  They all fit together nicely. CTN is a seamless fit there too.

I'd heard Al's Cottonfields before 20/20s, so Brian's version seemed subdued by comparison.

I initially loved TNFAP but soon grew tired of it (just like I stopped taking sugar in coffee), Do It Again and I Can Hear Music were the obvious singles bolted on, while Bluebirds – well, I tried to like it but still can't find it in my heart to put it in my top 150 BBs songs.

AIWTD… so unBBs' like that it took the fade to pull me in (as it were!).

Most of what buddhahat's thrown into his tracklist I love but Old Man River/Old Folks (both versions, but especially so the Old Man River vocal section) are so SMiLE-like their execution (to my mind) that they belong with SMiLE-soundalikes Fall Breaks and Diamond Head, for me. Same with CWTL. Maybe just for me.

Despite less Brian and an over reliance on covers, I think 20/20 is the best album they'd put out since Pet Sounds.

I agree on all points.

as buddhahat's songlist shows, there were several killer Brian tunes that didn't make the cut.
those should have had priority over anything by Manson, or anything else for that matter...

So, what is your theory as to why Manson was able to kick Brian off the track listing? I suppose by that thinking Dennis' songs took up space on Friends that Brian should have had?

20/20 to me, is like The Beach Boys' Magical Mystery Tour. There are lots of great songs but it just doesn't feel like an official album. And, at least, with MMT, all the songs were recorded within the same general time frame.

Part of the problem, of course, is cohesion. There has been a lot of talk on this board lately about whether Our Prayer should come first or last on Smile, but no one is arguing that it should come second last because, well, that's kind of ridiculous.

There's nothing wrong, of course, with an album that's just a collection of good songs, but I have a difficult time thinking of it as a great album if it doesn't have a cohesive structure.

You're correct. There's nothing wrong with an album full of good songs. Nothing is wrong with 20/20. There were tons of albums released in much the same way. Not every album was a concept album.

B side of previously released single.  ;D

I just listened to this one all the way through, and it's just not that good. Weaker than Smiley, Wild Honey or Friends. I stand by my assessment.

I guess that - if that's your opinion - that's fine.

As for my opinion: Maybe as a unity not the best one in the series of late 60ies output by the Boys. And there was a reason for that (parting with Capitol and all).
But except 1, maybe 2, I love all tracks of this album. Especially the DW contributions. And any album ending with Prayer & Cabinessence would end up high in my top10.

Well, that's not true. Bluebirds Over The Mountain, The Nearest Far Away Place, and All I Want to Do are pretty lacklustre. Add to that the fact that Our Prayer and Cabin Essence sound completely out of place and you have a blatantly jarring and patchy album.


Yep, though most of them were before 1967, and that's because the album as a form wasn't widely understood to be a unifying framework.

So, there was nothing wrong with them, but it is difficult to evaluate those albums with the same criteria that you evaluate the later ones. It's like comparing the special effects of movies made today with movies made in the 1950s.


There is an enormous difference between an album that is cohesive and a concept album. Pet Sounds is cohesive but there's no overarching concept. Every Beatles album from Rubber Soul onwards is cohesive (save Let it Be) but there's only one concept album amongst them (and even that is really pushing the limits of what we today call a concept album).

Agreed. On top of that I'm also not a big Do It Again fan. It was the first thing the band recorded after their failed Maharishi tour and to me it's really the beginning of the end so to speak. I wonder exactly how this song came about, was it Brian or Mike's idea? The band was at their commercial nadir and I can't help but pinpoint it as one of the first signs of trouble.
I don't know if its because I'm prejudiced against it, but I just have never liked it that much.

Do It Again has its charm, I think - though as 20/20 tracks go, I would put I Can Hear Music, Time To Get Alone, Be With Me, I Went to Sleep, Our Prayer, and Cabin Essence ahead of it. That being said, Brian was still interested in making commercial records (in fact, I'm not sure if there was ever a time where that wasn't a desire on his part) and I can't begrudge him for doing it here.

I'm not quite sure on your point about it being the beginning of the end. It was just obviously 'the single' for the album.

I love it, probably due to enjoying it as a kid on the Made In USA comp, but I also think it's just a great song, especially the middle 8. It sounds quintessentially Beach Boys to me, which I guess was one of the ideas behind it. To some ears it may sound like pastiche but I think they nailed it.

One of the first things, along with "Walk on By" and "We're Together Again". As for the origin of "Do it Again", that is so well documented, and has been for decades (hell, even Wikipedia gets it right !), that I'm forced to side with the poster who questioned if you were a fan of the band at all. Serious query: how many BB books have you got or read ?

No I don't really like them that much, The Beau Brummels are much better

Pure charm.

First, I was agreeing with you, you said it. Second, every song doesn't have to be a masterpiece. I find two of the three songs decent enough to fill the album. Third, All I Want To Do, lackluster? It's the most rocking song on the album. Fourth, before or after 1967, what is the difference? It is what it is. It wasn't released to be a concept album. As for cohesive, I've been listening to this for 41 years and it doesn't bother me listening to it from beginning to end. Let It Be? I thought you said everything was cohesive after 1967? Oy! The Beatles made a non-cohesive album? They're not perfect after all. ;)

Yup, that's me... but I know my Beach Boys 101.  ;)

See, I knew I had you pegged. Beau Brummels, indeed! ;)

As every good Beach Boys fan should.

my guess is that Dennis was really stepping up around this time (combined with Brian stepping back), and that's why his material (and Manson's) take up so much of that record. Denny's contributions to 'Friends' are some of his best work in my opinion, and fit perfectly with the vibe of that album.

20/20 has no "vibe" really. it's all over the place which is part of the reason it fails. but mainly the songs just ain't up to snuff.

Dennis' songs take up 1/4 of 20/20 and 1/6 of Friends. That's a one song difference. 20/20, no vibe? Then why do so many like it? Personally, I think it has a real Beach Boys vibe to it. The one thing that I found is that just about all of the songs fit the composer or singer's personality.

Yes, but after reading your response, I felt the need to qualify my remarks. Again, there is nothing wrong with an album that is just a collection of songs, but I wouldn't rate them as high as albums that have cohesive structure. But mostly we're talking about two different entities.


Of course not, but the best albums have a generally solid consistency but typically in order for that to happen, the album has to have some sort of cohesion.


Lackluster is not the same thing as slow. All I Want To Do is, for me, one of the most boring songs in The Beach Boys catalogue because it is so transparent in what it is trying to achieve and it does it in the most mediocre way imaginable. I think there is a good reason why Dennis typically kept to mellow, ballads, and funkiness -- he couldn't write rock, and this song is probably the best evidence for that. The music is just too by-the-numbers but it may have been helped if Mike Love wasn't singing it (his voice is perfect for some songs -- this ain't it), and if the lyrics weren't as trite. Oooh, a guy wants to have sex - how badass. Maybe if there wasn't a rich history of rock and roll saying the same thing in a much more subtle way for 15 years before this, it may have been interesting.


Enormous. Again, to use my previous example, if a movie came out today and quite seriously tried to get away with 1950s special effects, it would be laughed out of existence, and quite rightly so. But, of course, that doesn't mean we write off movies from the 50s. Different times demand different a different criteria of evaluation. You can't criticize, say, Marvin Gaye for not making cohesive albums before What's Going On but you can criticize him for not making one after it.


Again, I have not ONCE mentioned anything about concept albums whatsoever.


If you thought I said that, then you didn't understand what I wrote.


Quite right. Let it Be is nowhere near as strong as anything they made post-Help.
[/quote]

Yeah, well, Brian could have put anything the hell he wanted on the album and called all the shots if he'd stepped up, right? Since he didn't, can you blame the other Boys for putting their own stuff on it? Good stuff at that!

And at this point (1969) I really don't think if a Beach Boys record didn't have that Brian Wilson signature all over it, is reason enough to slam it. The other Boys were more than capable of Being The Beach Boys as they had been for however many countless live shows and recording sessions. The songs might not have been as perfect as Pet Sounds, but what collection of songs are? That's unfair to both Brian and the Boys to endlessly compare anything they do to either Pet Sounds or Smile. This was a multifaceted band full of very different individuals. I kind of dig the all over the place vibe of 20/20 songwriting-wise. Vocally, it's a goshdarn killer album. As soon as these guys open their mouths and sing, they're The Beach Boys. Brian or no Brian.

Then again, Holland is my favorite album of theirs.

Eh, well, I don't really think "the other Boys" made the noblest of decisions from 1966 onwards. But selfishly I do love the music.

can't really disagree with that

I was reading the vocal credits thread a while ago and it struck me that, in terms of released albums and material, from 1966 onwards (thus excluding the Smile sessions) the vocals on their albums became increasingly more shared between them but also complex too: in terms of trading off individual lines rather than just whole verses, combining two voices for a line and then going to someone else for the next line or half a verse, and so on -- that kind of thing. Maybe I'm just missing something in their earlier stuff or it's simply more subtle -- and I don't mean to suggest, say, that Today! or Pet Sounds (or the sessions for Smile obviously) are not vocally complex -- but that is the impression I had, that they got perhaps even more obviously complex after Pet Sounds. This does seem initially to be counter-intuitive, however, but perhaps that's just because it goes against the grain of the dominant story of the group?

Good point, and a belief I share as well. Obviously though, that ended with 15 BO. Even though I do like the post Holland albums, not even the biggest BB defender could argue against the fact the harmonies really dipped in quality (with the notable exception of the 85 album).

I wonder what that says when the period of increased harmony complexity begins when Brian steps back from the group and ends when he resumes (more or less) primary control. He obviously was not shy about complicated harmonies -- and he surely did do the vocal arrangements [a lot? some? often?] of the time for this period of comparative less engagement -- but I didn't get that impression with much of their classic period (1964-66). You sort of get a hint of it on, say, "In The Back Of My Mind" I guess but it's still nothing compared to "Wind Chimes" [Smiley Smile] or "'Til I Die". I will defend Love You to death but aside from "Ding Dang", you're correct, it's not nearly as complex. Another example it seems to me of this ridiculous complexity, and one which has been captivating me for the last couple weeks is the thirty-second "Radio King Dom" -- that snippet is a motherfucker! (Related question: Who is doing the high vocal "aaaah" in the background to it? Brian? Carl? Someone else entirely?)

did Brian want Cabinessence and Our Prayer put on there? i doubt it.

and i didn't say it sucks because it doesn't have Brian's signature... it sucks because the songs just aren't as good as what Brian was still capable of coming up with.

obviously a lot of fans love the album and it's all personal opinion. in my opinion it's weak overall, incredibly inconsistent, and depressing as hell.

Brian- it's a less hoarse version of his Love You falsetto.

That is one excellent question: we all know he pitched a fit about "Surf's Up" being on, er, Surf's Up, but I've never seen anything about a similar problem with 20/20. Given it was less than two years later, you could argue maybe not, but that would be supposition.

Also, why were those two particular songs chosen to be finished for 20/20? I can understand why they didn't pick "Wonderful," "Wind Chimes," or "H&V" since they'd already been released (although in scaled-down form) on Smiley Smile, but why not finish "Plymouth Rock," "Barnyard," or "I'm in Great Shape" instead? Maybe because those songs aren't as strong or don't stand on their own as well? Heck, they could've even chosen "Cool, Cool Water" or (as mentioned previously) "Can't Wait Too Long" to finish for the album. Who knows.

I'd guess because they were as near as dammit finished: "Prayer" has a couple more layers of vocals and all "Cabin Essence" needed was a lead. Think economy.

I thought Brian did get antsy about Prayer being pulled out of the vaults, worked on and released?

From Carlin's terrific tome, p.148
"But Brian had complained bitterly about this violation of the stillborn Smile and then refused to participate in the vocal sessions Carl scheduled to add an extra layer to  'Prayer.' "He was superstitious about those tunes," Desper remembers. "He'd leave the house when the guys were working on them. He didn't want anything to do with them, really."

Which goes for DYLW too. That lacks like 5 lines of lyrics? The instrumental tracks are all laid down, too. Why didn't they use that? So much for economy.


Why is that ridiculous? My old fanboy SMiLE mixes had Prayer second last and Good Vibrations last. Or do you mean arguing about it is ridiculous?


Interesting how different people feel so differently. To me, Friends is depressing. Most songs on it seem unfinished to me and severely underproduced. Compared with 20/20, it sounds like the early version of Do It Again (on Endless Harmony) compared with the single version. 20/20 was a big step forward in terms of production (or backwards, considering the production standards of Pet Sounds). And "Transcendental Meditation" is more annoying to me than "The Nearest Faraway Place".

I recently read that Huddie Ledbetter who wrote "Cottonfields" was actually convicted for murder in 1918. So along with the Manson song 20/20 really is a killer album...  8)

This isn't really on point, but it made me think of something.  In 2006, for a show, I had to deconstruct and make individual harmony charts (well, ersatz charts...I can't actually write music) for a bunch of songs, including several Beach Boys songs.  When I was able to tease out the vocals on "Wouldn't It Be Nice", particularly the bridge...I was literally awestruck.  I don't know quite how to explain it to a non-musician, but Brian had managed to create six moving parts that were never parallel octaves (in other words, little or no duplicated notes) that nonetheless made perfect harmonic sense both to the harmony movement and to the underlying chord.

This is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to do.  And you don't pull something like that off unless you are really, really trying to pull something like that off.  When I realized what Brian had done with that vocal arrangement, it practically screamed ambition...someone working their butt off trying to do something special.  It's not like anyone is going to notice what you pulled off technically.  I only noticed because I had the a capella tracks right there and I have good ears and I had written all the parts down.  But with all the notes in front of you you could see clearly what was in Brian's mind when he was writing it.  The guy was trying to climb Everest compositionally.

The very next song I broke down the vocals for was "Do It Again."  Two years later, another Brian arrangement.  And just as clearly as "Wouldn't It Be Nice"'s compositional structure screamed out a young man sweating blood to prove himself, "Do It Again" said: "I'm phoning it in."  Not that there was anything at all wrong with it.  It's a nice song, and a good arrangement.  But harmonically, everything he did in the vocal arrangement was totally by the numbers.  Pretty, competent, but the contrast between what I had just transcribed...a song done just two years earlier...couldn't have been more striking.

Transcribing the vocal arrangements to those two songs back to back told me as much about what happened with Brian, and the group, in the late '60s as anything I'd ever heard or read.

According to Desper when we talked Brian only minded Surf's Up being used. He is on the new parts on Our Prayer which is obvious to me at least.

Fascinating insight - thanks Adam.

I also often disregard 20/20 as just an album of songs slapped together with no context.

But then when I actually listen to the album... it plays like the best beach boys compilation out there. It's almost a summary of their music in the 1960s. You've got the surf music (Do It Again) and the other hits (I Can Hear Music, Bluebirds), which I'd excpect to hear on many 'best ofs'. Then there are all those gems. Tracks that wouldn't been right at home on Friends (I went To Sleep, Time to Get Alone and maybe even Be With Me), one of the beach boys only true rock songs (All I Want To Do) and to finish it off... two amazing SMiLE tracks.

I assume that the band would have felt that "reusing" the "Heroes & Villains" chorus melody for "Worms" would have been criticized.

I imagine the rest of the band maybe didn't know the lyrics/melody and Brian wasn't telling.

That's a very good point. I'm convinced.  :)

Funny. I think All Summer Long is one of their stronger albums, at least in terms of the cars, surf and girls era. If you ask me, 20/20 has strong contributions from Brian and the rest of the group in addition to a catchy hit single. I'd say 20/20 is just as good as the Surf's Up album, though it's more of a grower.

I can't agree more about the vocals for Wouldn't It Be Nice! But, I think it might (in part) come down to Do It Again just being a fun little rockin song, while Wouldn't It be Nice is a compositional, lyrical, performance masterpiece for the ages. Not that the same sort of creative passion and blood can't be devoted to less than A++++ material, but maybe it's not necessary. For my ears, Do It Again just sounds fun and light and rockin, and with a lot of creative energy going into the musical performances, and Brian's high harmony is indeed killer, if simple, and Mike's cool/confident but laid back lead, just kills it.

Fair enough. It's still ridiculous.

I think Surfin USA
Shut Down 2
All Summer Long
Today
Summer Days
Pet Sounds
Wild Honey
Friends
20/20
Sunflower
are the best LP's with the three JR era ones coming close.

:lol

Fantastic insight Adam.  I had a similar experience recently when recording a vocals only version of "Wouldn't It Be Nice."  The bridge in particular floored me as well.  I'd never done a recording with that many vocal tracks before, and hearing all the individual parts come together is just magical.  It was one of many moments I've had where I "unlocked" something amazing that Brian wrote, and all I could do is shake my head in awe.  Like you said, Brian was definitely trying to floor people, showing off what he could do. 

Even though he did some excellent vocal arrangements later on in his career, he never wrote/arranged with such ambition again.

That's some attitude you have there. Pretty much self-indulgent. I can't take YOU seriously. (If that is grammatically correct - or is it "take somebody serious"?)

Actually, I put on 20/20 and I thought "God this is crap!". I then realised I'd actually put in MIU by mistake................

Ouch. Of course, you can program your mix however you want.

But seriously, track listings on albums (good albums, at least) typically have a certain kind of logic to them. There's a reason, for example, why Revolver begins with Taxman and ends with Tomorrow Never Knows. And, it doesn't take much to conclude that "Our Prayer" how no logical place in the Smile tracklisting anywhere other than on top or on bottom. And, this logic is reinforced by the fact that we have crucial figures (Brian Wilson and Michael Vosse) who suggest that the track falls into those slots.

I think Our Prayer works perfectly 2nd to last on 20/20. It works as a sort of intro to Cabinessence and also an outro for the whole album, but then followed by the staggering work of art that is Cabinessence. Or if you like, we come out of the creepiness of Never Learn Not To Love and into the solace and positivity of Our Prayer.

Isn't it an unwritten rule here that anything surrounding the Beach Boys defies any sort of logic?

:lol :thud

OK, this just reminded me of a funny story.

I was actually at the taping of Al Jardine's interview for the Pet Sounds DVD at Capitol...I even got to ask a question.  After it was done, Al was just hanging around and he started talking about WIBN and how much he LOVED the bridge, and he starts going "what the heck were the chords on that bridge?"  He couldn't remember.  So Al, myself, and Alan Boyd, ran around the basement of Capitol until we found a piano and we sat there arguing about the chords for the bridge for about two minutes.  I don't think any of us had it right (though Al was definitely closest).  But Al wouldn't stop talking about how awesome the bridge was.  He LOVED it.

The chord structure IS awesome.  It's a simple four chord pattern but it's how the chords relate to each other and fall back on one another that's brilliant in its simplicity.

BTW, that same day, Al kept talking about the white goat on that PET SOUNDS cover.  Apparently that particular animal was vicious and made all their lives miserable, particularly ironic because the band got a bad rap on that photo session for "abusing the animals."

Anyhows, Al was on his way out of the building and I happened to be right behind him and when he got to the framed cover of PET SOUNDS on the wall he stopped and looked at that photo one more time, and sighed and said, for the third or fourth time, something like, "that damn white goat..."

After a brief pause, I looked at him and said:  "Al, that goat is dead now."

Al looked at me, burst out laughing, and said "thanks."  Then he walked out the door.

awesome story