The Smiley Smile Message Board

I finally bought the GV box set from tower records today and during a free class I starterd reading the fantastic booklet that comes with it.

I was struck by the quote "By Killing smile, He saved himself", and I'm wondering do you all agree with that. If Brian continued with smile, would he have died or something.

Saved himself from what?

A good kicking from Mike  ;D

But seriously, i think it's supposed to mean it stopped him going insane or w/e, a lovely point not helped by the fact that Brian actually did go insane within the decade.

As an aside, that book is so 'Brian-centric' I'm kinda amazed Mike let it through. Or maybe he saw the Pet Sounds draft and just thought 'not again....'

What a load of horse pucky.  IMO not completing Smile only made things worse for him. 
"Saved from what?", indeed. 

It's romantic sentimentality about our hero, imho.

Would you rather the quote had read  " By killing himself, He Saved SMiLE" ?  ( of course not)
Still, the sense is he  HAD to walk away to keep his senses intact.  See?

If it works for you, then by all means.   
I just don't really buy the idea that ditching it saved him from anything negative. 
In fact, I'm of the opinion that it only helped make the negatives worse.

I can see it both ways. I think for Brian it was one of those situations where he was damned if he did or damned if he didn't.

Agreed.  Killing Smile meant that he failed at something, for the first time in his professional career.  For a guy who was already incredibly insecure and who had already suffered a breakdown over the weight of his musical responsibilities, it must have been a huge blow.  Nobody likes to fail at something, but for somebody like Brian, it clearly had a profound impact on him.  He wasn't able to really spearhead a group album for another 10 years after that.

 A million times agree.

Did the failure of Smile as an overall project or the failure of Heroes the single to be welcomed as Brian thought it would be that one fateful July 1967 night at KHJ radio have more of an effect? I think the Heroes debacle was one of the last nails in the coffin, so to speak.

If you place all your hopes on one event, and you're banking on it to revitalize something very close to you, and it fails to reach your expectations, it has to be nothing short of devastating, whether the effects were instant or long-term.

It's been posted up here before, that what really killed SMiLE for Brian  (and this was from Peter Reum) was the change of direction from a 3-movement work to a basic 12-track album.  I think this did 2 things.  First, because it changed the whole focus of the project, it became impossible for Brian to complete it in the way he originally envisioned.  This increased the likelihood that Brian would eventually lose interest or give up since even if he had finished the thing, it still would not have been the SMiLE he would have wanted, or could have created. 

Second, it also served to develop a rift between him and members of the band, because it was their insistence that the album be changed into that 12-track format.  I'm not convinced that Mike was the villain in all of this.  He may have been the spokesman for the SMiLE "doubters", but it's very possible that Al or even Carl was the main instigator.   Brian Wilson confirmed as such on his own message board several years back when he claimed that Al was very much against SMiLE at the time.  I could also see Carl, a go-along-to-get-along kind of guy, and probably rather risk-averse, saying, "Gee Brian, I don't know.  Are you sure you're doing the right thing here?"  Now, that being said, Carl would probably have been the first to admit he was wrong (and he probably did) especially in light of the fact that he tried to see whether the project could be resurrected in the early 1970's.  To be honest, I think Murray had a HUGE part in SMiLE coming apart, and may have tried to convince the other guys (especially Mike and Carl) to "save Brian from himself."

I don't know.  This is all conjecture, but over the years it has astounded me how the Beach Boys have the most amazing talent of choosing the single worst solution to every problem, and it all started with that.

My personal opinion, not worth much, I think he was falling the hell apart, and the album falling apart was just a symptom of that.  I'm sure he was devastated that he couldn't finish the album, but he had bigger problems going on at the time. 

So you think that back then SMiLE was a three piece movement? I'm not saying your right or wrong, but even when they put together BWPS, I never heard ANYBODY say that back in the day it was originally a three movement thing. Not VDP, Brian, anybody.

I agree with Margaret.

Who?

Ron, this seems to wrap it up fairly succinctly to me.

We know he had second thoughts/insecurity about Good Vibrations, and nearly gave it away before finishing and releasing it.  Multiply the insecurity he felt about GV by how ever many modular tracks he was recording for SMiLE (with the added complication of VDP's abstract lyrics and the resistance those brought up -and which he even may have questioned), exacerbated by his deterioration in mental state (aggravated by drug use), and it's hard to see how he ever could have finished it.

MDH.

The closest anybody came to talking about movements was Brian saying that there were 2 movements back in '67, and they added a third in 2003 to create a "rock opera."  To me, it seems that Brian was talking about 2 contrasting sides of an LP, not movements in the structure of BWPS.

It's Leaf Brianista crap. Tinkerbell LOL

Really?  I've never seen or heard much in the way of evidence that Murry, for all his faults, killed Smile.  

Is Smile the sort of thing Murry would have done himself?  Absolutely not, but Murry had to have been happy with the piles of money Sea of Tunes (i.e., the Brian-Murry partnership) was making on Good Vibrations, right?  

Also, wasn't there a story along the lines that Van Dyke Parks didn't own a car, so Brian marched him down to Murry's office and said that VDP wanted a Volvo and Murry wrote out a check on the spot?   Buying the Smile lyricist a car isn't exactly a way to express your displeasure with the project, is it?

I've never heard murry figure in that story. I think Brian could write his own cheques in 1966....

Could have... but probably didn't. 

By 1966, mundane details of ordinary life such as check-writing and check-cashing were not Brian Wilson's thing (and probably still aren't).  Remember Tony Asher's recollection of being shocked at seeing large uncashed checks and piles of unopened mail gathering dust at Brian's house?

Yeah, I think the doubts, etc. about the songs and what to do here and there, etc. were all symptoms of the mental place he was in at the time.  Without the mental illness, he probably would have pulled it off. 

A lot of the work he did on the album didn't improve it.  He could have used early takes on a lot of the stuff and did what he wanted to do with it, he just mentally wasn't in a place where he was able to make a decision and stick with it.  It wasn't a problem with work, it was his entire life, he was having problems with his wife and in my opinion that was probably a much bigger deal to him than the album.  When you step back and look at all the stuff he was going through at the time, it's amazing that he was functioning even on the level that he was. 

Given Brian's mental state, I think that he was heading towards some kind of breakdown which would have occurred with or without Smile. Nevertheless, I think the fact that Brian was forced into a position where he had to kill the project probably didn't do him much good. As an abundantly insecure man, I think it made him seriously re-consider his own self-worth as an artist and this combined with his illness led him pull back from the things he once felt responsible for. Maybe if Wild Honey or Friends (which, from Brian's point of view, were probably compromises) had been as successful as Today! or Summer Days, then he might have been able to rebuild some of his confidence but unfortunately that wasn't in the cards. I think what ultimately would have saved Brian is recognizing that his idea of perfection was unattainable for anyone, and to put Smile out to what surely would have been enormous critical acclaim, though doing so before Sgt. Pepper rather than after it would have probably been key to this as well.

I think his problem was with the music and the lyrics, and the drug and/or mental problems became his problems later.

Exactly.  And you stated more clearly what I was getting at...it was his psychological/mental state that led to his insecurity around GV...several months later he had deteriorated mentally but the stakes were even higher. 

 
I think that's a good point.  After "Friends", the voices in his head were probably telling him "Your Dad was right" and he had no objective chart performance to tell him otherwise. 

This theory makes the most sense to me too.    

A man who believes that his music can cause fires, that a Hollywood film was made just to get at him, that someone's girlfriend is a witch who is messing with his mind, gets freaked out by a painted portrait and believes that there are mind gangsters & so on has much bigger internal issues than his father and his cousin and his record company (even in cahoots) could ever cause.

I was just about to post about mind gangsters but you gave a more comprehensive list of symptoms that lays it out quite clearly...he obviously was not a well man.  As Ron said, it's amazing he was able to function at that level as long as he did.

Honestly though, I still question how "mentally ill" he was at that time.  Obviously he exhibited emotional issues of all kinds, defects of character and the like, but none of that means he was destined to be #@*% for life.   
Here you have a kid - a kid mind you - he's come from this family situation that was full of pressure, expectation and severe emotional and physical abuse, he's at the top of the food chain as far as young American music goes, a position he's had since virtually right out of high school, and he's all alone there, he's responsible for every aspect of this family business, if he doesn't supply there is no family business, he's responsible for the livelihoods of all these people, he's got this schism of musical prowess and infantilism.   
I mean, who (even someone from a very nice family background) wouldn't be a wreck under that kind of set up? 
Pot can make a person VERY paranoid.  It can literally tweak some people out to an extent where you'd think they were on something "stronger" (like acid, or something).  If he was smoking a lot of it, which by all accounts he was, then no wonder he was talking about "mind gangsters".   (great name for a band by the way, but sorry, I digress...)
I don't necessarily see any of that as someone who's severely mentally ill.   It's normal if you actually consider all the factors surrounding him (and not normal behavior perhaps, but normal that he might be acting in such ways.)  Not to mention the fact that he's surrounded by a bunch of ingrates (albeit talented ingrates) who have no freaking vision.    Even after he dictched Smile in favor of the Smiley version of his muse, and went on with Wild Honey, Friends, Break Away, and Sunflower - there's still a guy there functioning at a high level (though maybe it be in a very rolled back manner), he's still making this incredible music that at one time probably would have been recieved very well, but now it's being ignored, and why?  because the band lost favor.  And why is that? "because you f***d up Brian." 
Now, I'm not saying that, but I imagine that must have been similar to things in his mind as album after album of really good stuff got virtually pissed on.    And over time all those understandable, "normal" problems become worse as his depressions and drug use increases, he see's the ones, whose livelihoods he was responsible for, struggling, the family business is in jeopardy, his own stature has been stamped "crap", etc. 
I can only imagine the the committee in his head.
"If you'd finished Smile it would have been alright."
"It would have been alright, but you weren't capable of finishing it."
"It wasn't worth finishing, it sucked."
"It was crazy and inappropriate, and so are YOU."

good lord, blah blah blah.....uh, sorry for the ramble.   :P

One thing about severe mental illness that isn't always appreciated is that unlike, say, a broken leg which is broken until it heals or a personality disorder which is fairly constant,  symptoms of thought disorders wax and wane with time. That is, someone who has very disturbed or disturbing thoughts one week may be functioning at a fairly productive level the month before and the month after. It could keep them out of work for weeks at a time and then they might (or might not) be able to return to work and function at a fairly high level for a week, a month or several months when the pathologic thoughts diminish.  It's not all or nothing, once sick, always sick.

Another feature of severe thought disorders is that the disturbed thoughts tend to descrease greatly after middle age.

This fits with some of what we've all heard about, but as far as being certain that's what went on here, it's not certain, but it's pretty strongly within the realm of the possible.

IMO, the band had lost favor with the public well before Smile.   As much as I like them personally, I think albums like Summer Days and especially Party! sound a year or so behind the times, and probably did them permanent harm as far as public perception goes.  If they had released something as progressive as Today or Pet Sounds in mid/late '65 (An album of songs in the vein of In The Back Of My Mind, Let Him Run Wild and The Little Girl I Once Knew) they might have been able to ride the tide longer and ease the transition towards Brian's brilliant new "ego music" a bit better.

Uhh, no. They fit in perfectly /were actually ahead of the times; hence the ever ascending Beatles/BBs "rivalry";  of course, since you definitely weren't there and your parents were probably only 5 or 6 then, they can't fill you in on how it really was.  But you did start with IMO, and it's still AFD, so all is forgiven

About his mental illness: one of the symptoms of his mental illness being present, even way back then, *WAS* his immense talent, imho. 

I'm no psychiatrist, but Brian certainly shares characteristics with the cliche'd "Idiot Savant".  Also if you know any autistic people, (It seems all of them I've met were children) they're immensely talented, usually, in one area or another.  This is all unrelated illnesses of course, but it just shows that people with developmental problems often can be really talented in other areas because they have an incredible ability to focus all their energy into whatever they're SELFISHLY interested in.  They can't be bothered to do anything responsible, though.  Has Brian ever tried anything that he wasn't good at, besides rapping?

I think he was born with psychological issues, and some parts of his life he was incapable of taking care of himself, and other parts of his life he excelled in.  By the time he got a little older and started doing drugs, having marital problems, responsibilities, it just kicked those same mental issues that had always been there into overdrive and his entire life collapsed.   He had a pretty steady downhill slide for years it seems after that.  His fame and fortune afforded him the opportunity to just sink into himself, he didn't have to go to work, or even keep up with hygiene like most people do. 

When 'normal' people suffer from issues like this, they either have to deal with it and get a grip, or they end up homeless on the streets.  Brian would have done one or the other, but he didn't have to.  His loved ones tried to help anyway they could think how, but ultimately he didn't have to do anything but whatever he wanted to do, the illness is almost like an addiction in that people don't seek treatment on their own, usually.

The stuff about the paranoia and things being a side effect of the weed may be true, but you really can see mental illness there from the beginning.  Hell he even wrote songs about it. 

"There's a World Where I Can Go And, Tell My Secrets To... in my Room... in my Room"

He was writing and singing about mental depression WAYYY the hell back.  He STILL talks about being depressed, this is something he's dealt with his whole life, I truly feel he was born with it.

On top of all we've discussed and imagined... now throw Murry on top of all that.  Who knows what the hell went on in that house while young master Brian was growing up.  Dennis and even Carl didn't get out unscathed either, they certainly didn't live perfect well-balanced lives themselves.  That points squarely at their parents, or Genetics, I think Brian got the bad end of both. 

I could be full of crap, though... the Libra in me has to fairly point that out.  I'm just glad that Brian appears to today be surrounded by people who love him and want the best for him, and that he appears to have access to the treatment he needs, and appears to be enjoying his life and family.  He could have been a tragic casualty like so many of our other heroes have been, and like our brother Dennis was.  Against all the odds though, he's still with us and apparently living a good life.  God bless him. 

I think having a ten month gap between studio LP's and having something like Barbara Ann become a runaway smash at the same time the Beatles were releasing Rubber Soul was a huge mistake.  And I don't think you had to have been there to make these observations.

Ebb and Flow your theory would make sense if Good Vibrations didn't come out a year later and decimate everything out at the time.  It was like HIROSHIMA, you think people didn't like that?  sh*t.  Play Good Vibrations for anybody, then play any Beatles song for anybody, and see which one 'the public' is into these days.  Any Beatles song before 1966 falls at the feet of Good Vibrations, and you can bet the public felt that way then too. 

I never said anything about Good Vibrations or anything post 1965.  I'm just speculating about why they lost steam with the public without blaming it completely on Smile, which seems to be an unpopular viewpoint.  Oh well.

No, I absolutely agree with your point that there were other factors for The Beach Boys losing steam with the public. But I am not convinced by your reasoning. After all the period from April 1965 to October 1966 is both their critical and commercial peak. During this time the band had five songs in the top 5, including two #1s and one #2. Summer Days tied with Surfin' USA as the highest charting Beach Boys album to date, while Party! was about on par with other albums (it ranked higher than Surfer Girl and as high as the Christmas album). Plus, Pet Sounds sold modestly, but received a good amount of critical attention - thanks in part to the Derek Taylor machine that propagated the "Brian is a genius" motto.

Does Rubber Soul sound more advanced than Party!? Yes. But in December 1965, The Beatles and Bob Dylan were in a different sphere than anyone musically. This was, after all, the year when "Wooly Bully" and "Hang on Sloopy" came out and even then we're still a long ways away from The Monkees who debut more than halfway through 1966.

I think that rock and roll history has done a poor job at putting these things in perspective, to be honest and as a result, while people can talk a big game about Sgt. Pepper being revolutionary, nobody knows just how out-of-left field, Rubber Soul, Highway 61, and Pet Sounds really were.

Remember too that this was more than a year or so before the great rise of music critics that occurred a year later who justified their existence by creating "hot or not" categories. But in 1965, rock and roll was rock and roll, and while most understood that The Beatles were at the top of the heap, there just wasn't a vocabulary yet about being "with the times" or "behind the times" that really began post-Pepper (unless, of course, you were really into Sinatra, man).

Also, had Smile come out, it is difficult to say how it would have affected The Beach Boys career, commercially. It could have been a big hit, particularly if it came out in January 67, as planned, only a few short months after their most massive hit yet. That could have put the album in a higher chart position than Pet Sounds. That being said, there really wasn't a strong contender for a second single from the album, which I think Brian himself recognized, hence the obsessive tinkering with Heroes and Villains. For that reason alone, coupled with the far-out nature of the music (a few months before The Beatles made such a thing hip) could have put it into the teens.

So why did the Beach Boys lose steam with the public? Smiley Smile couldn't have helped. It was just too strange. Sgt. Pepper was, of course, experimental, but it was also full of hooks and big splashy sing-a-long choruses (Lucy in the Sky, anyone?). Furthermore, it hit on precisely the expression of the counterculture. Smiley Smile on the other hand, was the countercultural folk who took things too far - the conspiracy theorist in the gang who makes all the other countercultural folks feel uncomfortable (personal note: I do like Smiley Smile as an album and conspiracy theorists do make me uncomfortable).

After that, it was a downward spiral. Rock journalists were telling the public at large what was cool and what wasn't by largely drawing an arbitrary line in the sand, and in the US at least post-Summer 67, you couldn't be cool and be a Beach Boys fan anymore.

I would say these factors were a bit more significant.

Nice post! My friends in the late 60's didn't like The Boy's simply because they weren't cool. Yet, one on one they did like some songs that I played for them. By 1971 and SU, they would actually listen to it in public. Why? Because word was out that they were cool again, especially in Rolling Stone. Perception really had a lot to do with what was cool or uncool.

Yeah but you're point is that they fell out of favor with the public, so the public wouldn't have been into SMiLE, but the public was clearly into Good Vibrations and like pointed out above, TONS of stuff in that period, it was their most successful period.  So the band hadn't lost favor with the public. 

They had hits from Pet Sounds too, but that only sold modestly. In the 60's you could ride high on hit singles, but not sell albums in the same way. Like most pop artists, you are only as popular as your last hit record.

Not to mention that the hits from Pet Sounds (excluding "Sloop") didn't chart that high at all - if I recall correctly, nothing else got higher than the 30s.

Well, (and this is the US charts I'm taling about) the #8 spot for Wouldn't It Be Nice wasn't too bad... and it's b-side God Only Knows made it to #39 in that same month.

And Caroline No reached #32.

Paul McCartney has been quoted as saying that before Sgt. Pepper even the Beatles popularity was on the wane. Many contemporary publications were thinking the Beatles were washed up by early 1967.

Wellll....I think what Macca meant was that the critics were jumping on the fact that the band's productivity appeared to be way down from its 1964-65 period, which was true. It was eight months between Rubber Soul and Revolver and then six months before the world got a new Beatles single, and a full ten months between Revolver and Pepper. Meanwhile during this time, the boys seemed to be going separate ways, with Lennon doing a film and Harrison being off in India, etc. From an outsiders perspective, I suppose, it did look like the well was running dry. But I don't think that quite leads us to assume that their popularity was subsiding (except, perhaps, in the fundamentalist pockets of the US of A).

Not sure if it "saved" him though. He was such a perfectionist with his music and I can only imagine the sheer disapointment it must have been on his part to not have Smile come out. I mean this part of his history has haunted him for years.

Okay, I looked it up.  The story is in Steven Gaines' book "Heroes and Villains" (p. 161).  I misremembered it slightly.  According to Gaines' account, Brian called Murry on the phone and told him to buy VDP a car and give him $5,000.  Murry did.

The story makes sense, as Parks was working for Sea of Tunes as a lyricist rather than for the Beach Boys per se.

He saved himself a load of hassle.

As with a lot of stories in the Gaines book, there's a pretty big factual error in that story.  At that point, as far as I've heard anyways, Murry wasn't handling Brian's (or the band's) finances.  Brian had accountants to deal with such things.

or............Brian called Murry and told/asked Murry to tell the accountants to cut a check to VDP for the amount of the vehicle purchase.

Perhaps you don't grasp the distinction between The Beach Boys (recording & touring act) and Sea of Tunes (music publishing company).  They were not the same thing.

Murry had been fired by The Beach Boys, but he and Brian continued to be partners at Sea of Tunes until he (Murry) sold it in 1969.  Sea of Tunes owned the copyright to more or less every original song Brian Wilson released until 1969.   I don't know if Gaines' precise details are accurate, but the story is plausible.  Writing songs with Brian Wilson in the 1960s meant working for Sea of Tunes, not The Beach Boys.  Sea of Tunes would have been the natural entity to compensate VDP for writing songs with Brian.

Good point.

Good Vibrations sold by the truckload, but it was such a groundbreaking great song that it caught the ear of many people who wouldn't usually buy a BB record. The slightly disappointing chart placements of the records that came just before it and afterwards would suggest that the band's solid fan base had shrunk somewhat. There were less people who would automatically purchase whatever the band put out. Also they failed to quickly capitalise on the career momentum GV had given them. The timeframe between the GV and Heroes and Villians releases was a lifetime in the pop music world back then.

But perhaps without the mental ilness he wouldnt have been "there" in the first place?

Brian's collaborators could have worked for Brian's own company though...

The interesting part of this story is something called "New Executive Music", which was a publishing company Brian had formed in 1964. Look close at some of the song credits and you'll see this company name listed on Brian's later works, although apparently his arrangements of songs like Sloop John B are credited to New Executive Music as well.

The point could be made that Brian could have signed Van Dyke or any of his other collaborators to an agreement with New Executive Music *unless* Brian was under some sort of exclusive contract with Sea Of Tunes...actually, does anyone know the details of this?

One on hand Brian owned his own publishing company - if Murry was being such a pain in the ass why didn't Brian just sign someone like Van Dyke to his own company and tell Murry to stay out of it? Again, unless he was under a non-competition clause or something he could have!

Interesting questions.  Off the top of my head, I can't think of any '60s Beach Boys song other than Sloop John B (arrangement) credited to New Executive Music.  Anyone?

The liner notes of the Pet Projects cd describe New Executive as a subsidiary of Sea of Tunes, so perhaps Murry essentially controlled that too?  I don't know.

Initially, New Executive seems to have been the home of Brian's non-Beach Boys songs (e.g., "He's a Doll," "Guess I'm Dumb," etc.).  Of course, Brian was still occasionally publishing under the New Executive banner as late as the '90s (e.g., on the Imagination album).   Now everything is Bri-Mel.

In any case, we know that the Smile-era tracks released in the '60s and credited to VDP  (Heroes & Villains, Vegetables, She's Goin Bald and Cabinessence) were listed as Sea of Tunes, rather than New Executive.

Choose:
A. No one knows
B. No one cares

 ;D

Clearly the company was formed in 1964 to give Brian an outlet for his original songs, and to make a bit more money from publishing. The news report of this was printed in May 1964 to be exact, so does that line up at all with when Murry was "fired" as manager? Whether or not that had anything to do with this company being set up, my main question still remains why Brian couldn't have just bypassed Murry and all the Sea Of Tunes B.S. and had someone like Van Dyke sign on to New Executive.

I'm guessing there was a contract existing somewhere that said anything Brian wrote that was intended to be for the Beach Boys had to go through Sea Of Tunes, although Sloop John B. breaks that a bit, though it was a cover song.

That fact that New Executive was used for Imagination and Brian's collaborations on that album is very interesting too - why not Bri-Mel at that point in time?

Hopefully someone can shed some light, it would be interesting to know why Brian stuck with Sea Of Tunes when he owned his own publishing company since 1964...

Just too a few minutes and looked at BMI's listings...what a confusing thing to wade into...

Most of the 60's output is now under "Irving Music". Sloop John B and Guess I'm Dumb, for two of the more notable examples, are New Executive Music, although Guess I'm Dumb has split credits because Russ Titelman had his own publisher.

"Brother Publishing" has a lot of the 70's output.

New Executive is listed for Good Timin', which I thought was interesting since it's a Brian-Carl collaboration.

Most of the "new" music from BWPS is of course listed under BRIMEL, although most of Imagination is New Executive.

The legal title for Sherri She Needs Me is "Terri She Needs Me". Hmmm.

There is no rhyme or reason to these credits - it's so random it seemed to be however the paperwork was drawn up for each song. Interesting to look at but beyond that who knows.

New Executive Music, the how and why of the credits given, is a mystery.

What if Brian is the messiah and needed to kill himself and save SMiLE? Perhaps we'd be living in peace and harmony.

He needed Mike to betray him...and the guy just didn't have the balls!

Brother Julius was giving him some major clues.

Like I mentioned, I think his talent is probably related to his mental illness.  So yeah he may not have ever been as great as he is without the illness.  The proverbial double edged sword, so to speak. 

I have absolutely no clue and maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but maybe there were different family/friends running each company, and out of favors he would trade around who he published the songs with.  Whattya think?

I used to think this, but the more I learn about Brian, the less I think this is true.  For one thing, he seemed to work best when he was happiest (and he says as much in interviews), and what really spurned him to creative heights was not the insecurity or pain of mental illness, but the more or less normal competitive spirit that motives, you know, baseball players and politicians and whatever.  He wanted to win, to prove himself, and he had the talent to do so in spectacular fashion.  Also, musical genius and mental illness don't have to go hand in hand.  Particularly in classical music, its clear that while you do have a handful of tortured geniuses, Bach and Mozart et. al. were not crazy, they were just insanely talented.  The thought of what a healthy Brian Wilson could have done in his 30s, 40s, and 50s is just, to me, haunting.  And the idea that his mental illness and his talent were linked seems more like something we want to be true than something that is true.  Obviously a very subjective subject, but those are my thoughts. 

Yeah, it's really hard to say, isn't it?  I think that you could claim though that Brian certainly was driven to over achieve.  He reached nearly unhuman excellence in his singing and his gift for harmony.  I honestly don't think that's overstating it, He did vocal things I've never heard anybody do and I feel the harmonies he arranged for the band are the best ever recorded.  I don't think dispair or depression drove him to that, but mentally ill people often excel at one area of their life that they focus everything on. 

But who knows, I guess you can't paint everybody who's supernaturally talented as mentally handicapped.  Muhammad Ali was a great athlete but I don't think he's mentally challenged.  Dr. King was a great orator but had no mental deficiences.

Man my spelling is horrible tonight.