The Smiley Smile Message Board

To nick the idea from one of Wee Helper's posts (apologies) in another thread, a game of Would you rather ...

H&V pt 2, or SU pt 2 to be on the sessions?

I'll go the opposite way and say I'd find a vintage edit of a 2 part Heroes to be the absolute Holy Grail of Smile finds, and would find it more exciting than SU pt 2 even though the latter would be unheard music, and historically more significant.

A challenge of my own:

Barnyard Suite or Child is father of the Man with verse vocals?!!

If Smile Sessions threads continue to proliferate at the present rate, then all of us will be institutionalized by the day that the darn thing will actually see the light of day.

How about... we recall what the press releases said, which was along the lines of "hopefully all the sessions will be represented" ?  In other words, it exists and they got it, you'll hear it.

Bah, that's a totally meaningless quote unless I'm missing something in the phrasing. All they're saying is all the known sessions will be represented by something. For all we know they may have unearthed a SU pt 2 but Brian's nixed it and Surf's Up will be 'represented' by the sessions we're already familiar with.

Anyway, the point of the thread is not to speculate on what they have or haven't found. FWIW my hopes are pretty low in that dept. - I'll be happy with a cohesive and better quality document of  what we already have and any lost material that surfaces will be a boon supreme.

But for FUN I wondered what holy grails might usurp other holy grails in us fanatics' wish lists?!

The only real conclusion I can draw so far after a couple thousand posts and replies: AGD knows more than we mere mortals do.

That's a very tough one, but I think I'd go with Surf's Up Part 2 by a whisker.  The two-part H&V edit would be awesome but it's possible (probable?) that it'd be comprised totally of pieces we've already heard (just sequenced differently).  Who amongst us isn't intrigued by what Alan Boyd posted a few years ago?

I've heard about the existence of a tape of a full arrangement on that second section of SURF'S UP. It's been described to me, third-hand. Supposedly it's pretty weird, lots of strange horn and string parts. But I haven't heard it.



Child.  The original verse lyrics are one of the greatest Smile mysteries.  I have to believe that they did exist in 1966.  How likely is it that Dennis would have been doing piano demos of a "cowboy song" with just a chorus that has no obvious connection to cowboys?  He must have been singing something else, but what?  Are they lyrics that, as some have suggested, might have ended up in H&V instead ("my children were raised...")?  Something else completely?

I hope for lead vocals on DYLW.

Between the two, I'd go with Heroes over Surf's Up.  I figure Surf's Up is about 1/1,000,000, Heroes 1/5 shot.  Although I'd love to get Surf's Up II, I don't think it exists.  Heroes has some backers...and retractors.

I feel certain the May "67 "Love To Say DaDa" sessions were really used by Brian to make a proto-mix for the mashup medley of H&V PT.2 and SU Pt.2 

Yeah after I posted I realised Barnyard suite vs complete Child is probably a no brainer. I'd certainly go for Child. That might be top of my list of wants for this although unrealistic I fear.


Leads for DYLW would be sweet, but is there any documentation that those were ever recorded? The Worms leads justify the entire BWPS project for me. Just incredible to hear those, and the fact they have such weird, psychedelic syncopation. They really stand out as vintage additions compared to the new parts of Child and so forth.

I'd love a fully realised version of the slow try-out version of False Barnyard, with vox that no-one's yet imagined. That "plunk plunk-a-plunk-a-plunk..." got me roused (steady madam) the first time I heard it on the SoT box all them years back and it's been a favourite ever since.

It's much more appealing than the actual False Barnyard fade it speeded up to become in successive takes. Conjured up an image of rows of yellow cartoon chickens line-dancing in a barnyard (and then, if I were right, it wouldn't be False Barnyard anymore, would it!).

The germane word here is "hopefully all the sessions will be represented" - now, my English is shaky, only been speaking it for 55-odd years, got an A Level & 2 O Levels in it, written a couple of books, so... workmanlike at best, but to my simple mind that means if there was a session for "Surf's Up" pt 2, we'll hear it. I may be wrong of course, English is such a rich language and I am but a tyro.

Dude, get some xanax or something equivalent.

Yes, quite.

Tha might be a tyro, Mr Doe, but I'm a Tyke and we talk English proper up here. An' now I thinks 'bout, ah've got one of them A-level things, and a couple of Os, and a NCTJ proficiency certificate somewhere... haven't had to think 'bout such thing fer yonks.

I'd say the germane word is "hopefully[/i] all the sessions will be represented" – in other words, Mark's hoping that folk hiding session tapes he's not sure exist might surrender/sell them to Capitol before he has to hand his homework in. Otherwise we won't[/i] have all[/i] the sessions represented.

It's a reet bugger, it is an’ no mistek.

Yep, it's pretty much impossible to talk about what 'you'd like to hear' on a boxset without someone coming in and arguing about it.  

The complete H&V parts 1&2 and the complete backing track

The other one would be a completed I'm in great shape - just the eggs and grits bit not with IWBA etc

I concur completely with juggler's response, and for the same reasons.  As cool as a vintage mix of a 2-part "Heroes" would be, it's unlikely that much (if any) of that music would be anything new.  Hearing the 2nd movement of Surf's Up in all it's glory, however, would be an incredible find - namely because it would be nothing we've heard before (and would be pretty damn cool, if Alan's third-hand description turns out to be accurate).

I have significant doubts that it'll actually turn up, but I think if it did, it would be the biggest Smile discovery we could possibly wish for - aside from a vintage Brian mix of the Elements.

I would agree with that. Though I kept it private and didn't post it on the forum(at the time), AGD had told me by private message that Brian and Mike had long ago signed to permit the "Smile" box, even at a time when forum members were anguished by Al Jardine's retraction. AGD was correct, and Capitol soon officially announced a "Smile" box. He does have inside information, and he shouldn't be doubted.

HAD; now that you've outed his inability  to keep secrets "secret" to Capitol

Bad form to report was told to you in confidence via PM. Perhaps you should edit your post?  :)

But I DID hold it in confidence until after Capitol made their official announcement.  I didn't reveal it at the point when Capitol still didn't want this to be known.  My point is that AGD is credible.

Whilst you are not!!

I'd only want a H&V part 2 if it had more verses that were cutt, like the "three score and five" one. Having a Barnyard with a studio vocal would be cool, but even if one turned up it wouldn't be that "new", considering that we basically have a rough vocal to synch with the backing track. What I'd really want is the "reconnected telephone lines" verse, or a vocal from CITFOTM, or Do You Like Worms.

Congrats - I see the SOH bypass was a complete success.  ;D

Wasn't anything like secret - if you knew where to look, and had a stupidly retentive memory married to the ability to add two and two and make the result something close to four.  :lol

I'm very hazy on this SU Part 1, 2, 3 thing.

In my mind, Part 1 was the instrumental intro we all heart on the first VIGOTONE Smile boot.  No vocals, just the 'stormy horns' ,  plucking strings, etc.

Part 2 was the Brian vocal.

Part 3 was added later - the CITFOM part Brian finally added years later on the Carl version.

Is there evidence of something different?

What's all this about two and two making four (or thereabouts)? What else is Mr AGD keeping to himself? We should be told.  If there isn't a 23.2-minute H&V segueing into Surf's Up Part III on this box set I'm not buying it, so tell us now, Mr AGD.

He's also as much as stated there'll be no surf music on this set. How can her be sure? Perhaps it's a red herring.

What else is Mr AGD keeping to himself?  Spill the beans Mr AGD: tonight's Lotto numbers for a start.

it's been theorised for decades that, as the track for the first section is logged as "Part 1", there must be an equally ornate "Part 2", despite the absence of any documentation. At least two fans have claimed to have heard of this "Part 2" from someone who's heard it. Maybe the box will resolve this, maybe it won't, but this I will predict: if you think the conjecture thus far has been bad enough, what's going to explode once we actually get a tracklisting to pick over is almost unimaginable.

They'll be between 1 and 49. Of this I am absolutely sure.

What? All of them?

 :o I always was of the opinion that AGD is incredible...

This is fairly unusual as far as the SMiLE recordings go. All of the other major songs had full backing tracks recorded (as far as we can tell), but "Surf's Up" only has a backing track for the first two verses. Reportedly, when Darian asked Brian in '03 what the backing track was supposed to be for the middle section of the song, Brian replied something to the effect of "There would have been a string arrangement on there". Now was this just in Brian's head or was something like this actually recorded in '66/'67? It appears that the band did not have access to any such session in '71 when the track was finally completed, so I doubt the "Part 2" was ever recorded (or, perhaps, Brian junked it shortly after recording). As it stands, I think Paul Mertens' string arrangement on the BWPS version is a very nice addition.

Now, were I one of those folk who takes BW at his word on things musical, I'd point out that he didn't say "we recorded a string arrangement for tha", or any other indication that there actually was ever a "part 2" session: he said "there would have (been, I'm presuming)", not "there was".

But as I'm not... just saying'...  ;)

Right (sorry about the poor grammar - I corrected it in the first post). While I don't recall the exact quote (and it was being paraphrased by Darian anyway), the suggestion was that the string arrangement was something Brian had thought about but had never gotten around to recording. "There was going to be a string arrangement on that part" is probably closer to the way Darian related the quote. Regardless, that's what Brian wanted in '03 which is why it's there on BWPS.

An O level? I have no idea what that means. ??? ???

What we took pre-GSCE, and a damn sight harder.

Now is not the time or place, AGD, but they were hard enough for me and everyone else I know  ;D

Damn this speculation! I want a tracklist now! *cue tantrum*

I'm talking 1971/72 here.

You make a fair point AGD, but this is the same guy who in 2005 said he'd never recorded "White Christmas" before.  Granted, he's usually more accurate in his memories regarding something musical (as you point out), but I'm not sure I put much stock in his particular choice of words here.

I'd say the fact that the list of musicians for the January "Surf's Up" session doesn't seem to mesh with the description we've heard of part 2 is a lot more telling.

Mahalo AGD!  Got that.

Possibly Brian always meant the "Child Is Father Of The Man" vocal tag (recorded in 1970) as Part 2?

You know, that's something I've often wondered. Stephen Desper described the situation as it happened in 1971: "About thirty minutes into the mix, Brian ... came bursting into the studio ... excitedly proclaiming that we should stop the mix and add just 'one more part' to the ending." The famous tag vocals were then "added postscript, and doubled at the last minute, as if always in his mind from conception, but heretofore forgotten, or perhaps suppressed." (emphasis mine)

While it's all conjecture on Stephen Desper's part, it does seem like an obvious question: was this a spur of the moment Brian idea or was it something he had tucked away since 1966? I wish someone would ask him, if they haven't already. Then again, his answer would probably just add more confusion to the matter.

Maybe they were actually part of the lyrics to Child is the Father of the Man?  Hence them not being sung or mentioned during the Surf's up demo, and then, when Brian realizes that Carl Wilson has adapted a second smile song for the outro of surf's up, he thinks to himself: well, might as well use the proper lyrics! 

Confirms Peter Ames Carlin's story on the matter; Brian was allegedly in a bad state, but suddenly rushed in (in bathrobe?), and solved the problem in a jiff.

In a jiff? Or in his pyjamas?

Please forgive me, I'm a yankee, but I'm guessing that's some sort of a test you had to take in school.

Yup. GCE* O levels at 16, GCE A levels at 18.

[* General Certificate of Education]

So basically what you are saying is they are the equivalent of the O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.S. in the Harry Potter books?  ;D

I read the first Harry Potter book: thankfully, I have managed to expunge every trace of it from my memory.

So you didn't have to take the O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.S, then?

Dunno about your hamlet, but bestiality's illegal over here.

Only if you're caught red- handed

Have to be a basenji, then.

The lyrics "A children's song, and we listen as they play, their song is love, and the children know the way," were written by Jack Rieley -- at that time.  However, I'm one to believe Brian always had that melody line in his head from the time of the SMiLE sessions.

Love and merci,   Dan Lega

I've said this elsewhere but I will repeat it here. It is absurdly unusual that Brian didn't record music to the "Dove nested towers" section of Surf's Up (I'm calling it that because there seems to be a lot of confusion that comes up by calling it Surf's Up Pt. 2). This was a particularly creative period for Brian - part of what stalled Smile initially, I think, is that there were too many ideas for it, which is bound to happen when you want to achieve an unattainable perfection (and, this, ultimately is what I believe led to the big downfall of the album). Furthermore, it seems that by this time, Brian had a pretty good idea of what the final product would sound like when he wrote the song. If you listen to that "demo" of H&V/IIGS/Barnyard, he seems totally on top of what those songs would sound like (right down to THE ANIMALS!). Of course, I have nothing to say that such a recording exists, it is so strange that it borders on impossible that it doesn't.

I'd like a bonus disc with a vocals-only version of BWPS.  8)

Consult the credits of the nearest CD with Surf's Up on it and try that again  ;D

Credits are not always an indication of who contributed what.

And, Van Dyke has fessed up to Smile era lyrics that aren't his.... HGS, for instance.

I've seen the lyric sheet Carl sang from: the lines in question are seemingly hastily scribbled on the reverse side in pencil, and in a hand that certainly doesn't belong to anyone called Wilson, Love, Jardine or Johnston. Or Desper, for that matter.

Didn't know that.... So i wonder why they didn't credit him? Then or since, like on BWPS...

You down there, I could have sworn someone here asked Parks poss. via email and he said they weren't his a few weeks ago. Then again, I have hit the Pimms hard today so my memory may be compromised  ;D

HGS = He Gives Speeches?

You're saying that VDP didn't contribute to those lyrics?  Why then was 'She's Goin Bald' credited to Wilson-Love-Parks?  

Parks said "not mine" in response to an email years ago from someone on the Smile Shop.  But I think it's highly likely that the lyrics were in fact his.  Who else would have written lyrics like that?  Mike?  Brian?  Tony Asher?  No, no and no.  They have Parks all over them.

And, again, he gets a 3rd place credit on 'She's Goin Bald.'  VDP was long gone from the scene by the time of Smiley Smile, so the only genuinely plausible explanation is that he contributed lyrics to the original version of the song. 

What are the other possibilities?   The credit was some sort of mistake on the part of Sea of Tunes?  The big problem with that, of course, is that Murry's habit was to leave people OFF the credits not to add them on and award them royalties unnecessarily.  VDP wasn't even credited originally on Wonderful (which is obviously his handiwork) and Wind Chimes.  But there's his name on She's Goin' Bald... How does he explain that?!

Sleight of hand

Be quiet, you guys.