Would Surfs Up have been the Greatest?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

So, I can't criticize.... the criticizm of a song I love? It's your holier than thou opinion that SDT is lame but my opinion that it is not is simply a massive denial of reality? Oh, please! SDT is a rocking little track with hilariously contrary lyrics! Is it not OK to like something even though in the hallowed halls of Beach Boys scholar-dom it's "bad"?   Sure it is!

Can we at least have a group hug over loving "feet" though, while we're here?

[Jeff]

So, I can't criticize.... the criticizm of a song I love? It's your holier than thou opinion that SDT is lame but my opinion that it is not is simply a massive denial of reality? Oh, please! SDT is a rocking little track with hilariously contrary lyrics! Is it not OK to like something even though in the hallowed halls of Beach Boys scholar-dom it's "bad"?   Sure it is!

Can we at least have a group hug over loving "feet" though, while we're here?

Criticize the criticism all you want.  Just don't try to claim that people dislike it out of some sort of misguided Mike hatred.  It's the song itself people don't like.

[I. Spaceman]

The lyrics of SDT advocate not getting killed, being nonviolent. If that is "rightwing" or "apathetic", then John Lennon was as well.
And oh yeah, Student Demonstration Time rocks.

[Dunderhead]

Mike Love sucks.

And you know what, that's just how I feel about him plain and simple. I've heard all the arguments, that the band would have never had its early commercial success without him, that his lyrics for Chug-A-Lug are classic, that he just had the band's best interests at heart, that all the band members had their flaws so it's not fair to single him out.

And you know what, none of those arguments change how I feel in the slightest. And at the end of the day that's all there is to it. If you like Mike Love, good for you. 

[SenorPotatoHead]

The backing track itself of Student Demonstration Time is great.  The lyrics though overall are lame, and Love's delivery of them mostly even lamer.  To me it always sounded smarmy, insincere and just the obvious "Hey let's be hip" grab that it was.   If they had to record this they ought to have just done a straight cover of Riot In Cell Block #9.  
Mike Love did have some really good moments lyrically, and great ones vocally, over the years, but he was not irreplaceable, and I think had it been him that left in '63 instead of Dave Marks, it might have been a really good thing.  He, of the original members, was the most expendable (my opinion of course, as is all of what I am writing here obviously).    
But whatever, it is as it was and is.  He has at least also provided (unwittingly) a lot to make fun of over the years (the hats, the stupid stage get ups, etc) - and laughter is good, so that's something anyway.  

[I. Spaceman]

Mike Love sucks.

And you know what, that's just how I feel about him plain and simple. I've heard all the arguments, that the band would have never had its early commercial success without him, that his lyrics for Chug-A-Lug are classic, that he just had the band's best interests at heart, that all the band members had their flaws so it's not fair to single him out.

And you know what, none of those arguments change how I feel in the slightest. And at the end of the day that's all there is to it. If you like Mike Love, good for you. 

Yes, and your Bruce Willis avatar certainly indicates you are a true connoisseur of talent, personality and artistic quality. What were we thinking? 

[Dunderhead]

Mike Love sucks.

And you know what, that's just how I feel about him plain and simple. I've heard all the arguments, that the band would have never had its early commercial success without him, that his lyrics for Chug-A-Lug are classic, that he just had the band's best interests at heart, that all the band members had their flaws so it's not fair to single him out.

And you know what, none of those arguments change how I feel in the slightest. And at the end of the day that's all there is to it. If you like Mike Love, good for you. 

Yes, and your Bruce Willis avatar certainly indicates you are a true connoisseur of talent, personality and artistic quality. What were we thinking? 

See, case in point. I still dislike Mike Love despite your persuasive argument. It's weird isn't it?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It is a bit weird to so vioilently dislike one of the core creative pillars of a band  you supposedly love. If I hated Mike even half as muchg as some of you do, I'd have to dislike The Beach Boys as a whole. And pick apart and nitpick his contributuions, re-sequence BBs albums in your head all you  want but Mike still wins

[Dunderhead]

It is a bit weird to so vioilently dislike one of the core creative pillars of a band  you supposedly love. If I hated Mike even half as muchg as some of you do, I'd have to dislike The Beach Boys as a whole. And pick apart and nitpick his contributuions, re-sequence BBs albums in your head all you  want but Mike still wins

Everybody wins!

[Summer_Days]

Side 1
1. Sound of Free
2. Long Promised Road
3. San Miguel
4. Feel Flows
5. 4th of July
6. Fallin' In Love

Side 2
1. Big Sur
2. Disney Girls (1957)
3. Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again)
4. A Day In The Life of a Tree (sung instead by Brian would be better)
5. Til I Die
6. Surf's Up

[Dunderhead]

I don't think I was being fair before by trivializing the argument so much. I just don't think it's a very a productive line of discussion.

Some members here insist on framing the conversation in an absurdly reductionist way, either you like the Beach Boys or you don't. Period. You either admit that the Student Demonstration Time lyrics are good or you admit that all the other lyrics Mike wrote are bad. You accept everything The Beach Boys give to you as presented, or you're an irresponsible fan.

The Beach Boys are not this infinitesimally small, irreducibly dimensionless point. The Beach Boys are a dynamic constellation of hundreds of songs, dozens of personalities, and fifty years of history.

Saying, "I like the lyrics on Good Vibrations, but I don't care for Mike Love's attitude and personality" is not a self-defeating or contradictory statement. Likewise disliking Student Demonstration Time does not commit anyone to a general dislike or hatred of Mike Love as a human being.

It's not this either or choice, it's criticism. It's a judgement based on individual taste and general aesthetic preference. Some people might prefer Mike's lighter fare, some might enjoy the self-serious Rieley lyrics, some might enjoy both depending on their mood that day. These are critical and subjective judgements, and a judgement passed on one song, on one album, can not be seamlessly extrapolated by reductionist logic into a moral condemnation of the guy who diddled out the crappy lyrics on a napkin while eating lunch.

[TV Forces]

No album that starts with "Don't Go Near the Water" can be the greatest anything.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I don't think I was being fair before by trivializing the argument so much. I just don't think it's a very a productive line of discussion.

Some members here insist on framing the conversation in an absurdly reductionist way, either you like the Beach Boys or you don't. Period. You either admit that the Student Demonstration Time lyrics are good or you admit that all the other lyrics Mike wrote are bad. You accept everything The Beach Boys give to you as presented, or you're an irresponsible fan.

The Beach Boys are not this infinitesimally small, irreducibly dimensionless point. The Beach Boys are a dynamic constellation of hundreds of songs, dozens of personalities, and fifty years of history.

Saying, "I like the lyrics on Good Vibrations, but I don't care for Mike Love's attitude and personality" is not a self-defeating or contradictory statement. Likewise disliking Student Demonstration Time does not commit anyone to a general dislike or hatred of Mike Love as a human being.

It's not this either or choice, it's criticism. It's a judgement based on individual taste and general aesthetic preference. Some people might prefer Mike's lighter fare, some might enjoy the self-serious Rieley lyrics, some might enjoy both depending on their mood that day. These are critical and subjective judgements, and a judgement passed on one song, on one album, can not be seamlessly extrapolated by reductionist logic into a moral condemnation of the guy who diddled out the crappy lyrics on a napkin while eating lunch.

Well, I'm being told to cut the crap and accept SDT as a fail and I simply refuse to do so. And I'm sorry, but the criticisms of the track don't even make any sense. All we keep hearing is how, in this opinion or that opinion, is how bad the lyrics are how it, just, ya know is soooooooooo obviously a pathetic grab at being hip. Others can demonstrate with logic how the lyrics in question really don't support these assertions and a dialogue can't even be achieved because someone else just pops up stating the same tired thing. You are correct in what you wrote about criticism and opinion, but when it comes of SDT (and Mike in general) there's this holier than thou attitude that calling something lame is in irrefutable fact. This is what gets annoying. And this B.S about oh, Big Sur should have been on Surf's Up just reeks of a backhanded compliment. I mean, is there a more perfect place for that song than on Holland where it opens up, of all things, California Saga? The Beach Boys were not morons and SDT wasn't included on Surf's Up just because Mike's feelings would get hurt if it wasn't.... It's easy to bash SDT because it's Mike (and I don't buy criticizing it for any other reason) but to me, Neil Young sounds just as desperate to be hip with Ohio, as do Joni Mitchell or CSN with Woodstock. Those two songs make me want to vomit. Now, Southern Man, on the other hand is completely incendiary. Then again, the players on that track really bring it, whereas Ohio doesn't have the same power (Neil has stated that drummer on Ohio Dallas Taylor would purposefully play badly on his songs). Point I'm trying to make is that a song  can be imperfect from a compositional/lyrical standpoint but can achieve greatness through the sheer physicality and visceral qualities of it's recording..... I think this is a valid point but I'm sure this will be followed up by someone just going..... "Uh, yeah, but you're wrong, SDT sucks"

[Dunderhead]

It's easy to bash SDT because it's Mike (and I don't buy criticizing it for any other reason)

You're just begging the question.

[Mike's Beard]

Oh wonderfull, another topic turns into a Mike sucks thread.

[Dunderhead]

Oh wonderfull, another topic turns into a Mike sucks thread.

It's just Erik and Ian harping on this one point. They keep trying to argue away "this song doesn't really do it for me" as if that were some analytical point that could be decisively proven false. What's worse is that the argument repeats ad nauseum as

"I don't really enjoy SDT because X"
"Beep Boop, X is not a valid predicate of this subject. Query: Why do you hate Mike Love?"

Honestly you guys just need to get over it. Some people don't like SDT, I'm sorry, you're not going to logically talk anyone out of feeling that way or shame them into agreeing with you by attacking their supposed motives.

If you want people to listen to and enjoy SDT, instead of being bitter and angry that people don't like the song as much as you do, you should try a lighter touch. Explain what the song means to you, do some critical description of your favorite things about the song.

Because really, you aren't winning any converts or doing anything to make any of the posters you're arguing against agree with you. You're just alienating them from your position by being inflexible and confrontational.

[Jukka]

^I'm not that keen on Mike's SDT vocals, either... it's not bad, but the distortion really accentuates the annoying characteristics of his nasal twang. AIWTD is a much more convinving case of Mike rocking out.

[runnersdialzero]

I DISLIKE FIREFIGHTERS.

[Cabinessenceking]

I DISLIKE FIREFIGHTERS.

Haha I remember listening to SDT for the first time, the sirens were an instant turnoff, bad production call! 

[Summer_Days]

I dislike 'Student Demonstration Time' not for the lyrics (which aren't too bad, Mike, really!) but for it being just so obnoxious-sounding. Especially being nestled with nice, cooling little things like 'Disney Girls' and 'Feel Flows'. It's like relaxing to smooth, melodic chamber music and then some idiot comes storming in blasting Molly Hatchet.

And I don't hate Mike Love, not really. I hate what he sometimes has said and some of the "creative" decisions he's made for the band...

Brian Wilson - responsible creatively for gems such as Today! Summer Days, Pet Sounds and the SMiLE music.

Mike Love - responsible creatively for stinkers like Summer In Paradise. UGH.

It's like different eras of Mike I like over others. I'd much prefer to hang out with epic beard and stupid hats 1971 Mike than 1976 gold lame, rings and a frickin' turbin Mike Love.

[Jukka]

It's like different eras of Mike I like over others. I'd much prefer to hang out with epic beard and stupid hats 1971 Mike than 1976 gold lame, rings and a frickin' turbin Mike Love.

Same here, the Mike I love the most is the weird-looking beardo who wrote Big Sur. Not that I have anything against the gold lame, turban-wearing, weird-looking beardo. And I'm okay with Mike's current look, too. He looks his age.

[Myk Luhv]

I really like "Don't Go Near The Water" but it is a serious exemplar of a mediocre song saved by production. Though the backing track is super cool -- there's so much going on in there!

[Smilin Ed H]

"It's like different eras of Mike I like over others. I'd much prefer to hang out with epic beard and stupid hats 1971 Mike than 1976 gold lame, rings and a frickin' turbin Mike Love."

True.  I think SDT is the weakest track on the album, but this is a strong album and and I wouldn't remove any track; I would add WIBNTLA and 4th of July, however.

[runnersdialzero]

Brian Wilson - responsible creatively for gems such as Today! Summer Days, Pet Sounds and the SMiLE music.

Mike Love - responsible creatively for stinkers like Summer In Paradise. UGH.

A little too simplistic. It'd be like if I faulted Brian for creating "Smart Girls" and claimed Mike was superior for having written the basis of "All I Wanna Do" or something.

Granted Brian is obviously the better (but then he is Brian frigging Wilson, generally regarded as one of the best pop songwriters ever), but still.

[EthanJames]

Interesting Topic, Anyhow while I was reading this topic I decided to make a video with early track listings, It was originally two parts but had to trim it to three because of Youtube's limitations with video lengths. So heres the first part

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=811yE9x6Bwo&feature=youtu.be