Choosing fillers for albums

[punkinhead]

to define fillers, there's first, the early era in which the fillers were considered the spoken tracks such as "Cassius" Love Vs. "Sonny" Wilson, Bull session with Big Daddy, and Our Favorite Recording Sessions. Some also consider the lesser of tunes on the early albums (Surfin' Safari/USA) like Moon Dawg or Cuckoo Clock or instrumentals on these albums.

The other fillers I'm questioning though are the ones after Smiley Smile. Of course there's the Smile fillers (sad that that's what they become) on Wild Honey through Surf's Up, and we could discuss/guess why they were chosen...but even then, I'm more in question of those that appear on other albums, like a lot of the Sunflower era tunes, per example using Good Time on Love You. Why was this? Does its production value fit the rest of the album? or its quirkiness?

Why did they wait to use Take a Load off Your Feet for Surf's Up when better tunes were available? Why did Mike wait to use Big Sur for Holland, though it was re-recorded, at which many of the so called fillers or old songs are not.

Who made the decisions of these fillers on the albums? Did they listen to the album before saying yes or no?

Did Bruce listen to what he had done so far for KTSA and think: "hmm, I think When Girls get Together fits well on this album, not one of Denny's tunes."

I'd also like to hear some ideas of other tunes that were done by the time an album came out that could have filled in better.

This also brings up another idea, with all the unheard/new tunes recorded (dating all the way back to 68 or 69) and ready to sell by 1974-75 with no new recording material to release (even after the Caribou Ranch studio fiasco); why not make a whole filler album of a lot of good but new (to the public) material?

[summerinparadise.flac]

In regards to KTSA, I don't think Bruce was a big fan of Dennis' work. He's on the record not liking POB. Whether Dennis would give Bruce his songs is another question.
As for filler (post-60's filler atleast) in general I don't know specifics but I imagine it all comes down to politics.

[punkinhead]

In regards to KTSA, I don't think Bruce was a big fan of Dennis' work. He's on the record not liking POB. Whether Dennis would give Bruce his songs is another question.
As for filler (post-60's filler atleast) in general I don't know specifics but I imagine it all comes down to politics.

that's prolly a good call. On an average, the general public (not hardcore fans like us) that liked Goin' Public wouldn't care for POB, and vice versa.  I wonder what other songs Dennis would have 'given' for LA, with Bambu in the can?

[Mike's Beard]

I've always said that if Bruce had left out the Sunflower reject and put on a finshed version of Love Remember Me, than KTSA would have been the strongest album since Holland.

[mikeyj]

On an average, the general public (not hardcore fans like us) that liked Goin' Public wouldn't care for POB, and vice versa.

I doubt there are many/any hardcore fans who like Going Public let alone the general public. Bruce himself doesn't even like the album from what I've heard.

[shelter]

In regards to KTSA, I don't think Bruce was a big fan of Dennis' work. He's on the record not liking POB.

A quote from Bruce:
"Forever, from our Sunflower album, is Dennis’ standout song...kind of his Disney Girls."

That always sounded degrading to me. It's not that I don't like Bruce or Disney Girl, but that does sound a bit to me like Barry Manilow saying "God Only Knows is kind of like Brian Wilson's Mandy".

[The Heartical Don]

On an average, the general public (not hardcore fans like us) that liked Goin' Public wouldn't care for POB, and vice versa.

I doubt there are many/any hardcore fans who like Going Public let alone the general public. Bruce himself doesn't even like the album from what I've heard.

I have GP. But I don't like it. I got it for around $ 2. Wait, there are 5 seconds of ephemeral, transcendent beauty on it: where the California Boys Choir (?) chimes in in 'I Write The Songs'. Perhaps it's telling that Bruce decided to keep this to a few seconds (the goodies) and filled the remaining 40 minutes with melting sugar.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Why did they wait to use Take a Load off Your Feet for Surf's Up when better tunes were available? Why did Mike wait to use Big Sur for Holland, though it was re-recorded, at which many of the so called fillers or old songs are not.

Who made the decisions of these fillers on the albums? Did they listen to the album before saying yes or no?

Well, regarding "Feet", it was considered for Add Some Music but they decided to pass (see the upcoming edition of ESQ for an overview of the genesis of Sunflower). "Big Sur", rerecorded, was a perfect fit for the trilogy, but can you seriously see it on any album before that ? The decision-making process back then seems to have been more or less democratic, with the exception of Brian's songs of course.

Did Bruce listen to what he had done so far for KTSA and think: "hmm, I think When Girls get Together fits well on this album, not one of Denny's tunes."

Aside from two sessions, Dennis wasn't part of the KTSA equation, so a complete absence of his material wasn't surprising - and the material he might have offered was rather dark for that project anyway. As for the inclusion of "WGGT" and "Good Time" on albums where they stuck out like a sonic sore thumb... I'm sure it seemed like a good idea to bruce & Brian at the time.

I think it's instructive that in the late 70s a band could record something like 20-25 new songs, and then go rooting in the archives to construct what they considered acceptable product. Actually, it was pretty much ever thus: even Pet Sounds recycled material some two years old.

[astroray]

I think "When Girls Get Together" would be filler on a bootleg!

[Mike's Beard]

I think "When Girls Get Together" would be considered filler on a blank CD.

[summerinparadise.flac]

In regards to KTSA, I don't think Bruce was a big fan of Dennis' work. He's on the record not liking POB.

A quote from Bruce:
"Forever, from our Sunflower album, is Dennis’ standout song...kind of his Disney Girls."

That always sounded degrading to me. It's not that I don't like Bruce or Disney Girl, but that does sound a bit to me like Barry Manilow saying "God Only Knows is kind of like Brian Wilson's Mandy".

Oh God, I've never read that quote. Thats one more reason for me not to like Bruce. What a blowhard.

[summerinparadise.flac]

AGD: you said that the song choices were pretty much democratic back then. Was Surfs Up really the only album with its contents effected by the two 'factions' fighting?

[Andrew G. Doe]

AGD: you said that the song choices were pretty much democratic back then. Was Surfs Up really the only album with its contents effected by the two 'factions' fighting?

From 1967-1973, on the available evidence, yes, I'd say so.

[summerinparadise.flac]

Thanks.

[filledeplage]

In regards to KTSA, I don't think Bruce was a big fan of Dennis' work. He's on the record not liking POB.

A quote from Bruce:
"Forever, from our Sunflower album, is Dennis’ standout song...kind of his Disney Girls."

That always sounded degrading to me. It's not that I don't like Bruce or Disney Girl, but that does sound a bit to me like Barry Manilow saying "God Only Knows is kind of like Brian Wilson's Mandy".

Oh God, I've never read that quote. Thats one more reason for me not to like Bruce. What a blowhard.

That quote does seem inconsistent, while reading the POB credits, both on the CD and LP.  Bruce Johnston is listed as a contributing vocalist as well as remembered in a personal note, "God Bless You, Bruce." That is from Dennis.

Last month or so I saw the Beach Boys in Long Island and John Stamos sang "Forever," using Bruce's keyboard while Bruce sang in the front line.  It may be that there are certain "signature songs" which are readily identified and identifiable to certain performers.  

Forever (or You Are So Beautiful) are two which come to mind with Dennis Wilson.  Much tribute was paid by John Stamos, to his rock idol and whose shoes he fills when time allows him.   I more closely identify "God Only Knows" with Carl because he is the one who sang it and not Brian.    

I don't know whether or not that is a true statement that is quoted.  "Mandy" is one of those connected to Barry Manilow, as well as "Michelle" for Paul McCartney, which he sang to the First Lady recently;  or "Disney Girls" which is what Bruce wrote with which he is linked, from the Surf's Up LP.  

Back to Stamos...he recorded Dennis' song "Forever" several times, as can be found on YouTube, even singing it at his "Full House" wedding.  Dennis was talented but perhaps was in his brother's shadow as can happen, and maybe under-appreciated as an artist and was "in his own way" with his substance issues.  

Hope you have the DVD of "Forever" by Billy Hinsche which I find to be pretty balanced, in the interviews Billy conducted to historically re-construct Dennis' story.  Billy might be just the one to ask.   And, that is possible this weekend at the screening of "1974 - On the Road with the Beach Boys," DVD, in Pawtucket, Rhode Island.  The notice is on several of these boards.      

People can have their own favorites and preferences...it is what makes our diverse world go round.  

"Forever" continues to be connected, and promoted by John Stamos, as a  Dennis Wilson creation, as John Stamos "keeps it alive" when he sings it in concert and dedicates it to his personal hero and idol, Dennis Wilson, it is his "standout song," and that is a fact.  

Personally, POB is a tough listen, now that Dennis is gone.  He was the (never ugly) duckling who was really a swan not in terms of his physical good looks but of his raw talent and creativity.  

"Forever" is just that simple and perfect love song, that immortalizes Dennis in the best possible and "pain-free" light.