Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it

[soniclovenoize]

Definitely plausible. There was a lot of cannibalism happening in March/April (and, to a certain extent, Feb). In fact, I'd say there was provably much more re-recording/reshuffling/repurposing of pieces than creation/development of new ones during that period. Although this often involved pieces of other songs being moved into H&V to complete the single (DYLW's chorus, OMP's fade), when VT become the Heir Apparent A-side-wise, it seems equally likely the transferring could work the other way.

Oh - and because it'll come up later on, the memo is definitely mid-Dec. This has I believe been comprehensively confirmed (Cam Mott amongst others has written about this), plus putting its composition post-Christmas doesn't work in terms of the design/printing timetable for the cover slicks, which is essentially why it was made in the first place.

I like the notion that "Elements"/"Veggies" being separated on the list is because the whole concept for The Elements was now up in the air following the problems with "Fire". If anything, this is even clearer if you accept the mid-Dec date for the memo - only two weeks after the MOLC session, when the psychic wounds will still have been fresh but the writer may not have felt confident to scrap "The Elements" from the line-up completely.

OK fair enough. 

All the BBs, plus Marilyn and Diane, are present on the track. In fact, the lead is a combo Brian/Mike. As to why no additional work on it later, my "Ockham's Razor" reply would be to say "because it was considered finished." True the sound is very different - more like the Psycodelic [sic] Sounds chants recorded by the "Vosse Posse" late at night five days later than anything else laid down during '66 - but maybe this was one of Brian's "bold new directions" (further explored, of course, on SS) of the period?

Ah!  Ockham's Razor!  Well actually, according to Ockham's Razor, my theory would be the more probable one because my theory makes less assumptions (It's similar enough to the standard demo type, thus it is one) than yours (It's supposed to sound stripped down and a complete outlier; No work was done to it because ___, It's supposed to sound unfinished, etc). 

And again, an equally valid reading of the numbering of parts would be simply that "Fire" was intended to lead-off (literally be the 'First Part') of "The Elements" suite. There don't seem to be any surviving session logs/box notations for "Cornucopia" at all, so maybe somewhere in a drawer there's a faded label reading "Elements Part 4: My Vega-Tables"?

Dangerous logic, on par with "Oh, I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night was mistitled on the tape box, we need to discard this data."    But joking aside, we already have suggestions of structural continuity in regards to segment naming, there's no reason we should discard it in this case, just to justify a belief.  Circular logic is sometimes prevalent in SMiLology...   

Agreed - and if, as I'm confident is the case, the memo is from December, this is actually how I'd lay out the chronology myself. In terms of the My Only Sunshine vocals taped on 10 Feb, I believe these are the wordless "oooh ah ah" backing vocal parts (I'm away from the Sessiongraphy at the moment, so would have to check, but pretty sure this is right. Also, those vocals are apparently Brian, Marilyn and Diane, no other BBs present.) The YAMS vocals proper (including the wisps of lyric in the fade) were most likely taped in '66 and survive now only on an acetate.

Yep, I'm suggesting that the wordless "ooooh ah ah" was recorded at a different session than the Sunshine lyrics.  They rhythmically seemed to clash with each other to my ear, suggesting that they were recorded at different times, meant for different songs (not unlike the masters of DYLW and VT that feature different verses simultaneously).  As in, the Sunshine lyrics were added o9n 11/30/66 when the Fade belonged to OMP, and the standard worldess vocals were added on 2/10/67 when the Fade belonged to H&V.  And what we have remaining is an acetate of the brief moment where they shared the same tape (before it was wiped?) 

[The_Holy_Bee]

Excellent responses, SLN. I am thoroughly enjoying this.

Ah!  Ockham's Razor!  Well actually, according to Ockham's Razor, my theory would be the more probable one because my theory makes less assumptions (It's similar enough to the standard demo type, thus it is one) than yours (It's supposed to sound stripped down and a complete outlier; No work was done to it because ___, It's supposed to sound unfinished, etc).

Ah, but that's not quite the argument I was making, though I can see how putting two fairly discrete statements in one para made it seem that way. No, my "Ockham" moment was simply to say "Nothing more done = because it was finished." The stuff about it sounding different to a lot of the sessions was a response to your previous comments about the sound, not really a justification for the theory that if the original (pre-single desperation) version wasn't amended, it was simply because BW & VDP were happy with it as it stood in Nov.

EDIT, ADDITIONAL: Re: "the standard demo type". I'd quibble - surprise! - with this assessment. As I pointed out above, "Cornucopia" is a full (vocal) band recording, plus Marilyn and Diane, layered to include overdubbed laughing effects and additional backing vox (Brian is both co-lead and, behind himself, a backing vocalist/chortler). This is more akin to the work the Boys did on "Party" (always intended for commercial release) than any genuine "demo" recordings from the period, ie. Humble Harv, both complete '66 "Surf's Up"s, plus the '67 version, or "Little Red Book" etc. Which leads me to believe it was a deliberately stripped-back Party-style "comedy" recording, rather than a demo. Unless there are other more-than-Brian-at-a-piano demoes/run-throughs I'm not remembering?

Dangerous logic, on par with "Oh, I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night was mistitled on the tape box, we need to discard this data."  Wink  But joking aside, we already have suggestions of structural continuity in regards to segment naming, there's no reason we should discard it in this case, just to justify a belief.  Circular logic is sometimes prevalent in SMiLology...

Similarly - and I may not be following you completely here - I simply meant that "Part One" could equally mean "part one of the sequence" as it could "first part to be recorded". I absolutely agree that - again, especially as we move into '67, with the constant "H&V Part Two", "intro to Part 3" stuff - the naming of segments ('structural continuity') is both increasingly prevalent and gets frustratingly complex. There appears to have been some logic to it at the time, but damned if it's easy to suss what exactly it was now.

Yep, I'm suggesting that the wordless "ooooh ah ah" was recorded at a different session than the Sunshine lyrics.  They rhythmically seemed to clash with each other to my ear, suggesting that they were recorded at different times, meant for different songs (not unlike the masters of DYLW and VT that feature different verses simultaneously).  As in, the Sunshine lyrics were added o9n 11/30/66 when the Fade belonged to OMP, and the standard worldess vocals were added on 2/10/67 when the Fade belonged to H&V.  And what we have remaining is an acetate of the brief moment where they shared the same tape (before it was wiped?)  

Got you. (Meaning, "I understand!", not "My trap has sprung!") You might well be right - consulting the Sessionography (under "My Only Sunshine" listing), the Part 1 vocals (meaning Dennis, I assume) were taped on 30 Nov. Part 2 vocals (Brian, Diane, Marilyn) are recorded as being taped "late 66/early 67"- apparently all the vocals on the fade, but I'd buy it as being possible the BW "you were my sunshine..." bits in the fade were from an earlier session, preserved only on that particular acetate dub.

[guitarfool2002]

Peter Brown wrote that when McCartney visited the US in April 1967 and stopped in to see Brian at the studio (Vegetables one of the specific tunes we know was being recorded that day), Brian was working on the Elements "suite". Brown called it "The Four Elements Suite" specifically. Connect the dots if any exist.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Peter Brown wrote that when McCartney visited the US in April 1967 and stopped in to see Brian at the studio (Vegetables one of the specific tunes we know was being recorded that day), Brian was working on the Elements "suite". Brown called it "The Four Elements Suite" specifically. Connect the dots if any exist.

Interesting, gf2002, thanks. Seems to be supporting evidence for Veggies being/remaining tied to the Elements concept. Equally - against my usual supposition - this recollection implies that "SMiLE" as a full album entity (as opposed to an increasingly panicked attempt at singles) was still actively in mind as late as April '67. The use of the specific - and idiosyncratic - term "Four Elements Suite" lends weight to it being a genuine memory as opposed to unintentional historical revisionism or a reflection of the discourse since.

[guitarfool2002]

I may have thought otherwise in years past, but at this point that tracklist memo which was printed on the proposed back cover slick was probably as simple as this: At that point in time, at that stage of the process when Capitol needed something to send to the print dept. to start making the actual covers, the songs listed there were what had been decided for the album. The order and sequencing was obviously not, and the memo (and cover) state that clearly. But those are the songs that came out of the process that got whittled down week-by-week. Just take those specific titles, go through the known sessions and recordings, and see which ones were close to being finished, which ones did and did not have vocals yet, and which ones were worked on as 1967 kicked off a new year. It could be as simple as that, if the question is what was "Smile" going to consist of, as of the beginning of the year 1967.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Peter Brown wrote that when McCartney visited the US in April 1967 and stopped in to see Brian at the studio (Vegetables one of the specific tunes we know was being recorded that day), Brian was working on the Elements "suite". Brown called it "The Four Elements Suite" specifically. Connect the dots if any exist.

Sounds like yet another piece of evidence indicating Veggies was an element

[guitarfool2002]

Peter Brown wrote that when McCartney visited the US in April 1967 and stopped in to see Brian at the studio (Vegetables one of the specific tunes we know was being recorded that day), Brian was working on the Elements "suite". Brown called it "The Four Elements Suite" specifically. Connect the dots if any exist.

Interesting, gf2002, thanks. Seems to be supporting evidence for Veggies being/remaining tied to the Elements concept. Equally - against my usual supposition - this recollection implies that "SMiLE" as a full album entity (as opposed to an increasingly panicked attempt at singles) was still actively in mind as late as April '67. The use of the specific - and idiosyncratic - term "Four Elements Suite" lends weight to it being a genuine memory as opposed to unintentional historical revisionism or a reflection of the discourse since.

That was my opinion too, that such a specific term as "Four Elements Suite" coming from someone like Peter Brown with a direct personal connection to Paul (and Mal Evans who traveled to the States with Paul in April '67) wouldn't seem to be a throwaway, or something cribbed from another book or report as other books tend to do. It's too specific.

And as far as challenging Peter Brown's memory or details in general, if we fact check Brown's account of Paul and Mal's trip to the states, all of the details and dates line up quite well, including placing Paul at a Vegetables session that week in April '67. Brown when his book came out had no internet timelines, articles, or much else in the way of date-specific Smile information to consult or research. If he wrote that Paul was at a session where Brian was working on this "Elements" music, and the date lines up, that's straight from either Paul's or Mal's own account of the meeting with Brian.

Brown also mentioned one of Paul's first hang-out sessions when he arrived in the US April 3 being with members of the Jefferson Airplane, and not more than a few weeks ago or so a photo of them hanging out that day showed up on Facebook.

[The_Holy_Bee]

I may have thought otherwise in years past, but at this point that tracklist memo which was printed on the proposed back cover slick was probably as simple as this: At that point in time, at that stage of the process when Capitol needed something to send to the print dept. to start making the actual covers, the songs listed there were what had been decided for the album. The order and sequencing was obviously not, and the memo (and cover) state that clearly. But those are the songs that came out of the process that got whittled down week-by-week. Just take those specific titles, go through the known sessions and recordings, and see which ones were close to being finished, which ones did and did not have vocals yet, and which ones were worked on as 1967 kicked off a new year. It could be as simple as that, if the question is what was "Smile" going to consist of, as of the beginning of the year 1967.

Largely agreed, but I still think the record suggests something (or several somethings) happened in December '66 which served to throw the album off its trajectory. In terms of the first work done (Jan/Feb) in '67:

Anderle: [W]hen I left, "Heroes and Villians" was being planned to be the single, only because it was the closest thing to being finished, at that point, and sadly not even the original "Heroes and Villians"...
Williams: When I was there in December, Brian was thinking of "Heroes and Villains" as the single.
Anderle: Right. He would think of "Heroes and Villains" and then he would call up two nights later, and say it was going to be this, and it was going to be that, and it was going to be "Heroes and Villains" again, and then everyone said, No, Brian, it should be "Heroes and Villains", no Brian it should be this...

[BRIAN, part two, Crawdaddy! May '68]

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I may have thought otherwise in years past, but at this point that tracklist memo which was printed on the proposed back cover slick was probably as simple as this: At that point in time, at that stage of the process when Capitol needed something to send to the print dept. to start making the actual covers, the songs listed there were what had been decided for the album. The order and sequencing was obviously not, and the memo (and cover) state that clearly. But those are the songs that came out of the process that got whittled down week-by-week. Just take those specific titles, go through the known sessions and recordings, and see which ones were close to being finished, which ones did and did not have vocals yet, and which ones were worked on as 1967 kicked off a new year. It could be as simple as that, if the question is what was "Smile" going to consist of, as of the beginning of the year 1967.

Exactly. I mean, it's possible people like Jason who argue for including Dada/Holidays/Look might be right...but I really dont think so. Like someone said, why would Diane/Carl/David just give Capitol a made up list without consulting Brian? There's no way such a crucial thing as the very tracklist didnt get run by him, and while I believe he didnt actually write it, I do believe he took care not to mess it up. Long-winded way of saying those were the SMiLE songs in his mind at that time. Look and Holidays were never touched again. We get some new fragments, some repurposing of old material for different songs, a Carl song probably unrelated to SMiLE or else a last minute attempt by him to fill the gaps and get something out...and Dada.

Now, if we assume Dada was meant for SMiLE at all...my guess would be it was a reworking of the Elements. This is me combining my/Bee's theory on the elements with Sonics. I think it may be possible that without Fire, the Elements was being reworked from what it would've been to something else. Dada/Second Day/Whatever. It's possible. But personally...I think Dada was just a B-side that came from an old Heroes fragment when the two-sided Heroes wasnt working out.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Peter Brown wrote that when McCartney visited the US in April 1967 and stopped in to see Brian at the studio (Vegetables one of the specific tunes we know was being recorded that day), Brian was working on the Elements "suite". Brown called it "The Four Elements Suite" specifically. Connect the dots if any exist.

Interesting, gf2002, thanks. Seems to be supporting evidence for Veggies being/remaining tied to the Elements concept. Equally - against my usual supposition - this recollection implies that "SMiLE" as a full album entity (as opposed to an increasingly panicked attempt at singles) was still actively in mind as late as April '67. The use of the specific - and idiosyncratic - term "Four Elements Suite" lends weight to it being a genuine memory as opposed to unintentional historical revisionism or a reflection of the discourse since.

That was my opinion too, that such a specific term as "Four Elements Suite" coming from someone like Peter Brown with a direct personal connection to Paul (and Mal Evans who traveled to the States with Paul in April '67) wouldn't seem to be a throwaway, or something cribbed from another book or report as other books tend to do. It's too specific.

And as far as challenging Peter Brown's memory or details in general, if we fact check Brown's account of Paul and Mal's trip to the states, all of the details and dates line up quite well, including placing Paul at a Vegetables session that week in April '67. Brown when his book came out had no internet timelines, articles, or much else in the way of date-specific Smile information to consult or research. If he wrote that Paul was at a session where Brian was working on this "Elements" music, and the date lines up, that's straight from either Paul's or Mal's own account of the meeting with Brian.

Brown also mentioned one of Paul's first hang-out sessions when he arrived in the US April 3 being with members of the Jefferson Airplane, and not more than a few weeks ago or so a photo of them hanging out that day showed up on Facebook.

Any chance you could send me that photo?

[guitarfool2002]

[guitarfool2002]

They've been dating that Jefferson Airplane photo as April 4th 1967, which lines up with Brown's date of April 3rd as the day McCartney and Mal arrived in the US.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I may have thought otherwise in years past, but at this point that tracklist memo which was printed on the proposed back cover slick was probably as simple as this: At that point in time, at that stage of the process when Capitol needed something to send to the print dept. to start making the actual covers, the songs listed there were what had been decided for the album. The order and sequencing was obviously not, and the memo (and cover) state that clearly. But those are the songs that came out of the process that got whittled down week-by-week. Just take those specific titles, go through the known sessions and recordings, and see which ones were close to being finished, which ones did and did not have vocals yet, and which ones were worked on as 1967 kicked off a new year. It could be as simple as that, if the question is what was "Smile" going to consist of, as of the beginning of the year 1967.

Largely agreed, but I still think the record suggests something (or several somethings) happened in December '66 which served to throw the album off its trajectory. In terms of the first work done (Jan/Feb) in '67:

Anderle: [W]hen I left, "Heroes and Villians" was being planned to be the single, only because it was the closest thing to being finished, at that point, and sadly not even the original "Heroes and Villians"...
Williams: When I was there in December, Brian was thinking of "Heroes and Villains" as the single.
Anderle: Right. He would think of "Heroes and Villains" and then he would call up two nights later, and say it was going to be this, and it was going to be that, and it was going to be "Heroes and Villains" again, and then everyone said, No, Brian, it should be "Heroes and Villains", no Brian it should be this...

[BRIAN, part two, Crawdaddy! May '68]

I dont feel like digging thru this whole thread, but didnt someone before say Brian didnt originally want Heroes to be the single but the band did? That could really explain why things went down as they did. It makes sense he might concede on that point as a way of placating them since this new music was so wild and as much as their reaction has been exaggerated, they obviously didnt much like it at first. This explains the endless tinkering to make it more commercial too, because now that it's a single, it has to be catchy and relatable. It has to be as groundbreaking as GV was. It has to really make a splash. If this is true, it makes me want to scream. Like, you already have a single on the charts. Forget singles for now and focus on the album. Choose a song that's ALREADY commercial and screw what anyone says. Again, with Surf's Up being demoed on TV and the brilliant "trick" of the title (you thought it was just another surf song? NOPE!) it wouldve been the perfect single. A simple piano demo like the Wild Honey version wouldve been beautiful, a great counterpoint to the heavy-production of GV, and wouldve kept the "real" Surfs Up and the rest of SMiLE a secret. I bring this up because Brian mentioned in interviews wanting to keep the material secret until it was released, which was another hangup about the H&V sessions. You already have Look--with vocals--in the can as a perfect throwaway B-side. Makes me wish I could go back and shake him and just tell him to do it this way instead.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

They've been dating that Jefferson Airplane photo as April 4th 1967, which lines up with Brown's date of April 3rd as the day McCartney and Mal arrived in the US.

Im disappointed there's no Grace Slick in the pic, but thank you kindly good sir! 

[guitarfool2002]

Notice Jack Casady's Fender Jazz Bass with the custom modifications is shown in that photo too.

[guitarfool2002]

Some of the best information I've ever seen, ever read, or would ever recommend about what Smile was or may have been at specific points from Fall 1966 into 1967 comes from Michael Vosse in his Fusion article. Again, and as I've said before, I haven't seen much of anything that Vosse got 'wrong' in that article regarding the evolution and sound of certain Smile tracks, along with the history and background of the events surrounding them. And he more than perhaps anyone (other Beach Boys included) was there to see and hear this stuff happening firsthand.

Some questions raised in this current discussion I'd say were addressed if not answered by Vosse in "Fusion".

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Some of the best information I've ever seen, ever read, or would ever recommend about what Smile was or may have been at specific points from Fall 1966 into 1967 comes from Michael Vosse in his Fusion article. Again, and as I've said before, I haven't seen much of anything that Vosse got 'wrong' in that article regarding the evolution and sound of certain Smile tracks, along with the history and background of the events surrounding them. And he more than perhaps anyone (other Beach Boys included) was there to see and hear this stuff happening firsthand.

Some questions raised in this current discussion I'd say were addressed if not answered by Vosse in "Fusion".

I really got get around to reading LLVS...

[guitarfool2002]

Just one example, he says the wood sawing and hammering was part of Brian's "barnyard" or farm concept, along with doing You Are My Sunshine in some kind of Old McDonald Had A Farm scenario...it came from Brian playing "Sunshine" while they were high (according to Vosse) in that slow sad way, then it started spinning into the barnyard direction that included the woodworking/building noises and the animal noises as heard in the actual piece "Barnyard". So it was Brian's sonic version of Old McDonald's Farm, if you take Vosse's word. And I do. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Just one example, he says the wood sawing and hammering was part of Brian's "barnyard" or farm concept, along with doing You Are My Sunshine in some kind of Old McDonald Had A Farm scenario...it came from Brian playing "Sunshine" while they were high (according to Vosse) in that slow sad way, then it started spinning into the barnyard direction that included the woodworking/building noises and the animal noises as heard in the actual piece "Barnyard". So it was Brian's sonic version of Old McDonald's Farm, if you take Vosse's word. And I do. 

So *that* is where this whole "Barnyard Suite" comes from...

[guitarfool2002]

When it's broken down to something other than the "rebuilding after the fire" notion of what the woodworking sounds were supposed to be, it actually makes very basic, common sense that you would probably hear hammering and sawing and building on an active farm, whether they're either building or repairing a fence, a chicken coup, the barn itself...any number of things. Sometimes the most simple possibility is actually the best possibility. The fact that some of these little sections got shuffled around so much definitely doesn't make it easier to figure out, which is why having Vosse's firsthand account (since he was *there* as the whole thing first started developing) is so valuable.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

When it's broken down to something other than the "rebuilding after the fire" notion of what the woodworking sounds were supposed to be, it actually makes very basic, common sense that you would probably hear hammering and sawing and building on an active farm, whether they're either building or repairing a fence, a chicken coup, the barn itself...any number of things. Sometimes the most simple possibility is actually the best possibility. The fact that some of these little sections got shuffled around so much definitely doesn't make it easier to figure out, which is why having Vosse's firsthand account (since he was *there* as the whole thing first started developing) is so valuable.

Agreed. Its frustrating how Priore, fan speculation, the shoehorning of Water into Dada and H&V intro into Fire that Sheriff brought up, and BWPS' new third movement have muddied the waters so to speak. Not that there's anything wrong with alternate ideas, but it just feels like making the historical SMiLE is that much harder because of all the "repeated so much its taken as fact" misinformation, and the PR of BWPS being the finished SMiLE (which it is...just not finished as it would have been, is all Im saying.)

[guitarfool2002]

That does bring up a point, though, and it's one Vosse also made clear if I remember - The fact is that Smile was left unfinished in 1967, and that was that. I think now the closest anyone may have in terms of the question "what would it have looked like in January 1967?" might just be that tracklist that appears on the back cover. Whatever was or would have been included in those individual song titles was the mystery, and always will be, because some of it was simply in a state of flux and some of the "tracks" we know from the bootlegs of the past 35 years or so were no more a part of the album than "Trombone Dixie" or the early takes of Good Vibrations was to Pet Sounds. They were tracks worked on during the sessions, but when it came time to narrow it all down, certain pieces would have been left off. For example, "He Gives Speeches"...that is a throwaway, plain and simple. Is it a "Smile" track, or a track that was worked on during the Smile sessions? I equate those things with Trombone Dixie.

At this point, there is only one finished Smile that had both the names Wilson and Parks listed as the composers, and that was what premiered live at Royal Festival Hall in 2004. Everything else is and will always be pure speculation, with some pieces of the puzzle having more clues to piece together than others.

[soniclovenoize]

- How Mark Linett's experimenting (in 1992?) with the "Intro To Heroes And Villains" eventually became the "Intro To Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" - and stuck!

This is something I was thinking about today.  Where did this association between the H&V intro and Fire come from?  It could be more than accidental or fan revisionism.  Let's trace the history of the pieces as they seemed to evolve over time, both conceptually and musically...

First let's look at Mrs. O'Leary's Cow--Fire--recorded 11/28/66.  Driven by a bass figure and implied notes from cellos and flutes to be a chord sequence of Gm to F, we also have non-musical bells and whistles to represent firetrucks.  The effect is dizzying and droney. Brian believes the song created flash fires in LA and the song is shelved indefinitely...  

Later. a segment for H&V called "Bag of Tricks", recorded 1/3/67, features a bouncy and abstract piano figure that, like Fire, follows an implied Gm to F chord sequence.  It also features the BBs using party favors as adornments, similar to the bells and whistles of Fire.  It's unclear how this segment would fit into H&V (which is in the key of Dd major), but due to the adornments and chord sequences, could this be a reincarnation of the musical ideas of Fire/Mrs O'Leary's Cow?  

Next is a segment for H&V called Organ Waltz, recorded 3/1/67, that is also known as H&V Intro and was later misstitled as the Fire section of The Elements, and later adapted as the actual intro to Fire by Linnet and eventually Darian S...  Here was have an organ and a descending piano riff, this time moving from F to Bb (which like the previous Bag of Tricks, doesn't harmonically jive with H&V).  Like the previous version, it featured bells and whistle adornments.  

SMiLE is officially cancelled in June and Brian picks up some of the pieces in his home studio and rebuilds it into Smiley Smile.  Among the debris is "Fall Breaks and Back to Winter (W Woodpecker Symphony)", recorded 6/29/67.  Here we again have a droney & dizzying two-chord sequence of Bbm to F driven by a bouncy abstract piano figure, much like Bag of Tricks.  Also featuring sparkles of percussion and a woodpecker call (comparative to the Fire bells and whistles), it notably also features a vocal part very similar to the bass riff of Fire.  

Now while there is no real direct connect of Mrs O'Leary's Cow to Organ Waltz as we all know, it makes sense the connection is made.  I believe that the four above pieces are all connected: that Mrs. O'Leary's Cow evolved into Bag Of Tricks, which evolved into Organ Waltz, which evolved into Fall Breaks and Back To Winter, which was incorporated into the BWPS Mrs O'Leary's Cow, which included Organ Waltz as an intro.  Did you follow that?  It's cyclical.  Which leads me to my next point...  

While we should probably avoid claiming the smoking gun are the Fall Breaks vocals in the BWPS incarnation of Fire because we don't know the reliability and historical accuracy of the BWPS configuration, we have another bit of evidence, albeit circumstantial: the titles.  "Fall Breaks and and Back To Winter" denotes the changing of the seasons...  The four cyclical seasons that relieve eachother, Fall, winter, spring, summer.  Just like the four cyclical elements that relieve eachother: earth, fire, air, water.  Coincidence?  Not so sure it simply is...  

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

That does bring up a point, though, and it's one Vosse also made clear if I remember - The fact is that Smile was left unfinished in 1967, and that was that. I think now the closest anyone may have in terms of the question "what would it have looked like in January 1967?" might just be that tracklist that appears on the back cover. Whatever was or would have been included in those individual song titles was the mystery, and always will be, because some of it was simply in a state of flux and some of the "tracks" we know from the bootlegs of the past 35 years or so were no more a part of the album than "Trombone Dixie" or the early takes of Good Vibrations was to Pet Sounds. They were tracks worked on during the sessions, but when it came time to narrow it all down, certain pieces would have been left off. For example, "He Gives Speeches"...that is a throwaway, plain and simple. Is it a "Smile" track, or a track that was worked on during the Smile sessions? I equate those things with Trombone Dixie.

At this point, there is only one finished Smile that had both the names Wilson and Parks listed as the composers, and that was what premiered live at Royal Festival Hall in 2004. Everything else is and will always be pure speculation, with some pieces of the puzzle having more clues to piece together than others.

I mean, yeah, but like Holy Bee, I do think there was a general outline of sorts come November/December and that this is worth recreating (to the best of our abilities). Similarly, Id disagree with Vosse about "it ended and thats that." Fact is, it never really ended. It evolved (or devolved, depending on your perspective) into Smiley. Pieces of it were constantly reworked and recycled through the years, from CCW and CWTL to the riff in Little Bird and workshop in Do It Again. No fan mix will ever be official or the real thing, but theres more than enough material, a lot of unexplored ideas (in BWPS, and Smiley) and enough conflicting reports that we can make a totally new album from BWPS/Smiley, which depending on your perspective is closer to the original intent. In my opinion, they usually sound a lot better than BWPS/Smiley and are more interesting. This is without getting into arguments about whether BWPS should "count" because it was sequenced for a different context and different band (not trying to derail this awesome discussion with that can of worms tho).
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Sonic, what's your take on any Water Chant/CCW and Dada connection?

[guitarfool2002]

But honestly though, just how much of the recreating process is nothing but the preferences of the person doing the recreation versus anything concrete or beyond a fantasy mix? Don't take me the wrong way, I don't have issues with fan mixes and recreations at all, but at the same time I'd say how much would someone 49 years after the fact be able to get any closer to the creators' intent than either that tracklist of songs or even the sequence agreed to in 2004 by Brian and Van Dyke when the project was revisited? Again, how much closer does anyone expect to get to the pulse of the Smile project than a back cover tracklisting that was approved and printed in early 1967 and a finished performance and recording of the music in three movements done by the two primary composers and creators who did the original sessions?

I'll offer this as a parallel example to consider, no opinion but just food for thought:

Say the final mix and released version of Good Vibrations never happened in 1966. Brian never did that final mixdown and edit that got released.

Years later fans have access to several discs full of various sessions done for Good Vibrations. Take after take, remake after rework after experiment. Which we do have, officially and unofficially for years now.

Could anyone have come close to what ended up on that 45 single that hit #1 on the charts as Brian created it?

There would be several hours worth of various snapshots in time of the working process that could have suggested a different edit, different feel, different sequences, different this or that...and would any attempt to build as close to a recreation of Brian's concept for the song be anywhere close to what it would end up being in reality?

Take even that production flair Brian added by simply muting a lead vocal track on the words "we find" in order to boost the effect of the multiple drum tracks and bass line building to a climax before the hook...if an early rough mix of that lead vocal even existed, would any fan mixers think to mute those two words out of the track to supercharge the effect of that build-up in the instrumental tracks as Brian did? You'd lose one of the prime examples of what Brian as producer would do to make hit records come alive, those little things like a simple mute in a mixdown.

And even taking any number of the existing GV sessions available and trying to mix them into a conceptual version as it might have been in 1966...would anyone have come close?

It's a microcosm of trying to recreate a working Smile. At some point, I'd rather consider the attempts a fantasy mix and judge them on those aesthetics rather than trying to do a historically correct version of what was left unfinished and in a state of flux for decades until the two guys who came up with all that stuff decided to finish it as they chose.