Redwood- tell everything you know!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

For all we know, Brian rewrote the song with Mike, but the chorus used the word "baby" instead of "darling" (considering that the original title was "Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby") . Then, when Brian was thinking of songs to record with Redwood, he thought of that song, and thinking of Hutton, decided that "darling" was better for the chorus than baby. Either way, it's still a Brian & Mike cowrite.

I mean, if we want to make some meaningless conjectures on events we have no firsthand knowledge of.

Shhhhhh!!!! Say something like that too loud, this board will vanish in a puff of smoke! 

But I think you're theory is probably close to the truth. Brian and Mike probably wrote most of the Wild Honey stuff together pretty quickly. Darlin' being a handy item to dust off. Perhaps Brian might have brought up writing a song for Danny called Darlin and either he or Mike remembered "Thinkin Bout You Baby" and realized how easily the word baby could be swapped with "Darlin"!

[Rocker]

I was just listening to the Wild Honey SOT-CD. Something I haven't thought of before: were the guys themselves playing on the track for Darlin' ? That of course would make another very good point for them for wanting the song for the Beach Boys. Why shouldn't they be cutting other people's records even if they were on their label ? C-Man, do you know which musicians played on Darlin ' ?

[guitarfool2002]

I was just listening to the Wild Honey SOT-CD. Something I haven't thought of before: were the guys themselves playing on the track for Darlin' ? That of course would make another very good point for them for wanting the song for the Beach Boys. Why shouldn't they be cutting other people's records even if they were on their label ? C-Man, do you know which musicians played on Darlin ' ?

Focusing in on the drums: Does that sound like a part Dennis would play?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I was just listening to the Wild Honey SOT-CD. Something I haven't thought of before: were the guys themselves playing on the track for Darlin' ? That of course would make another very good point for them for wanting the song for the Beach Boys. Why shouldn't they be cutting other people's records even if they were on their label ? C-Man, do you know which musicians played on Darlin ' ?

Focusing in on the drums: Does that sound like a part Dennis would play?

Sure sound like him to me. Actually, it's so basic, it could even be Carl or Brian. Seriously. And I'm astonished how simple the basic track is - drums/piano/bass.

[guitarfool2002]

I was just listening to the Wild Honey SOT-CD. Something I haven't thought of before: were the guys themselves playing on the track for Darlin' ? That of course would make another very good point for them for wanting the song for the Beach Boys. Why shouldn't they be cutting other people's records even if they were on their label ? C-Man, do you know which musicians played on Darlin ' ?

Focusing in on the drums: Does that sound like a part Dennis would play?

Sure sound like him to me. Actually, it's so basic, it could even be Carl or Brian. Seriously. And I'm astonished how simple the basic track is - drums/piano/bass.

Really? I guess it's all in how we hear it: The basic verse beats are one thing, but the fills sound more on top of the beat and driving than anything I'd imagine Dennis playing in 1967. I could be WAAAAY off but it sounds more like a Jim Gordon track to me, again those fills are what makes it different from the other Wild Honey tracks. I hope we find out who it was!

Plus, wasn't the backing of Darlin recorded by Brian independent of The Beach Boys? I thought the Boys just added vocals to the tracks Brian already laid down, maybe I'm confusing Darlin with another Redwood track, though.

EDIT: Wasn't there a bass player named Ron who played on parts of Wild Honey, according to Bruce some years ago? If they hired a bassist to play those simple lines, and hired Paul Tanner to play two notes on his Tannerin on the title track when any band member could have done it on Mike's Moog, the possibility of Brian getting someone like Gordon or Blaine for some drum tracks wouldn't be out of the question.

[Rocker]

I was just listening to the Wild Honey SOT-CD. Something I haven't thought of before: were the guys themselves playing on the track for Darlin' ? That of course would make another very good point for them for wanting the song for the Beach Boys. Why shouldn't they be cutting other people's records even if they were on their label ? C-Man, do you know which musicians played on Darlin ' ?

Focusing in on the drums: Does that sound like a part Dennis would play?

Absolutely no, but what about the other stuff? If Carl, Al and Brian (maybe even Bruce) played the other instruments plus Mike co-writing it I also would've thought that it was done for the Beach Boys.

[hypehat]

Plus, wasn't the backing of Darlin recorded by Brian independent of The Beach Boys? I thought the Boys just added vocals to the tracks Brian already laid down, maybe I'm confusing Darlin with another Redwood track, though.

Might be TTGA, actually - The Redwood version sounds essentially identical, but the band have insisted they re-recorded it for themselves. Where I read that, I can't remember....

[Zander]

I was just listening to the Wild Honey SOT-CD. Something I haven't thought of before: were the guys themselves playing on the track for Darlin' ? That of course would make another very good point for them for wanting the song for the Beach Boys. Why shouldn't they be cutting other people's records even if they were on their label ? C-Man, do you know which musicians played on Darlin ' ?

Focusing in on the drums: Does that sound like a part Dennis would play?

Absolutely no, but what about the other stuff? If Carl, Al and Brian (maybe even Bruce) played the other instruments plus Mike co-writing it I also would've thought that it was done for the Beach Boys.

I've always thought it wasn't Denny - I'm sure I read it one of the many books - possible Badman but I maybe wrong. Again, in said unknown book I was under the impression Brian was unhappy with trumpet sound on Darlin' as it was slightly out of tune with the piano? Does anyone else know anything about this or did I just dream it up...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Didn't Desper say the Beach Boys re-recorded the Darlin backing track themselves but using the same basic arrangement? Or am I thinking of Time To Get Alone?

[hypehat]

Didn't Desper say the Beach Boys re-recorded the Darlin backing track themselves but using the same basic arrangement? Or am I thinking of Time To Get Alone?

We might be talking about the same thing....

Zander, Brian tended to complain about the piano a lot. There's a bit on the SOT 19 where he curses at it for a good while during a CWTL session. Thing is, he tuned it that way especially, to sound like an old family piano of the Wilsons!

[Runaways]

i kinda prefer the speed of "thinkin bout you baby" to darlin. 

[OBLiO]

The bass on Darlin' sounds like it's played with a pick.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The bass on Darlin' sounds like it's played with a pick.

Not James Jamerson, then. 

[guitarfool2002]

I remember almost 8 years ago or so on a message board having a similar discussion about this topic: Is there any documentation showing who was on these sessions, or was anything confirmed in the years since about claims like Bruce's of a hired session bass player named "Ron" on parts of Wild Honey?

So we know they brought in Paul Tanner for the title track, there's this bassist "Ron" on the tracks, Bruce played on some tracks...I still think those fills sound like Jim Gordon on Darlin. Or someone of his caliber as a session drummer. And "I Was Made To Love Her" - I cannot recall, but wasn't that Carol Kaye? I'm thinking it was, but whoever it was it is a bassline more complex than I could see anyone in the core BB's band playing that solid in 1967. That's not a critique, but that kind of bassline was out of their usual style.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I remember almost 8 years ago or so on a message board having a similar discussion about this topic: Is there any documentation showing who was on these sessions, or was anything confirmed in the years since about claims like Bruce's of a hired session bass player named "Ron" on parts of Wild Honey?

So we know they brought in Paul Tanner for the title track, there's this bassist "Ron" on the tracks, Bruce played on some tracks...I still think those fills sound like Jim Gordon on Darlin. Or someone of his caliber as a session drummer. And "I Was Made To Love Her" - I cannot recall, but wasn't that Carol Kaye? I'm thinking it was, but whoever it was it is a bassline more complex than I could see anyone in the core BB's band playing that solid in 1967. That's not a critique, but that kind of bassline was out of their usual style.

The AFM sheet for the session for "Here Comes the Night" and "Cool, Cool Water" lists the following:

Dianne Rovell
Bill Halvorsen
Alan
Bruce
Jim Lockert
Brian
Carl
Dennis
Mike

... and yes, CK played on "IWMTLH".

[OBLiO]

I remember almost 8 years ago or so on a message board having a similar discussion about this topic: Is there any documentation showing who was on these sessions, or was anything confirmed in the years since about claims like Bruce's of a hired session bass player named "Ron" on parts of Wild Honey?

So we know they brought in Paul Tanner for the title track, there's this bassist "Ron" on the tracks, Bruce played on some tracks...I still think those fills sound like Jim Gordon on Darlin. Or someone of his caliber as a session drummer. And "I Was Made To Love Her" - I cannot recall, but wasn't that Carol Kaye? I'm thinking it was, but whoever it was it is a bassline more complex than I could see anyone in the core BB's band playing that solid in 1967. That's not a critique, but that kind of bassline was out of their usual style.

Ok... you are thinking of Ron Brown... I have to do some reading but came across something here from this board which mentions the bass tracks for Wild Honey recorded on their own track... speculation is overdubs... an AFM sheet for overdubs hasn't turned up or has it by now? Interestingly, James Jamerson was recorded this same way... he had his own track so nothing else got in the way. Apparently Ron Brown recorded a bass track for Time to Get Alone so it is possible he could be playing the bass on Darlin' as well... and another thing... James Jamerson used his index finger and his attack was pick-like... the index finger has less meat on the tip than the second finger... you get a punchier or sharper attack... add callouses and the strength developed and maybe some fingernail you get that sound. It's been a long time since I read how Jamerson set his bass up, but I remember the use of flat wound strings and he turned his tone control all the way down and the volume all the way up. I emulated it myself at one time.
I think you are right about session players playing, regardless... the use of the tom as an accent in those fills and the bass uses the octave punch and pushes the beat at times which makes the line funky.

Also came across this from a steve hoffman archive:
Steve Hoffman 03-30-2004, 01:13 PM
DARLIN' (like several other songs on Wild Honey) is just a "snippet" spliced up to full length. Listen carefully and you can hear the edits where they start it over about halfway through. Listen to the final fade out. It starts going into the verse again. http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-31329.html

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=printpage;topic=3437.0  discussion on Wild Honey

[OBLiO]

I think it's Bruce playing bass on Darlin'...

Andrew, you asked him and he said he played bass on the "A Thing or Two" and those were tracked at the same session.
He uses the octave in this song too, although there is a different bass thing happening tonally though the verses.

Anyone notice what happens to the bass in Time To Get Alone? during the "valley so deep and wide" section... it changes... the attack and tone change. I found the Hawthorne and Redwood versions on youtube. So comparing all three from 20/20, Hawthorne, and Redwood... the bass changes in all three at the same spot. The Redwood version sounds like a couple bass edits in there... but then everything flies away and the fade back in is the same sound as the beginning. In both Beach Boys versions the bass keeps going and you can hear the difference all the way through to the end.

Gene Pello (Drums) was at the session for Time To Get Alone on Oct 15th according to Badman.. is that correct info, Andrew?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think it's Bruce playing bass on Darlin'...

Andrew, you asked him and he said he played bass on the "A Thing or Two" and those were tracked at the same session.
He uses the octave in this song too, although there is a different bass thing happening tonally though the verses.

Anyone notice what happens to the bass in Time To Get Alone? during the "valley so deep and wide" section... it changes... the attack and tone change. I found the Hawthorne and Redwood versions on youtube. So comparing all three from 20/20, Hawthorne, and Redwood... the bass changes in all three at the same spot. The Redwood version sounds like a couple bass edits in there... but then everything flies away and the fade back in is the same sound as the beginning. In both Beach Boys versions the bass keeps going and you can hear the difference all the way through to the end.

Gene Pello (Drums) was at the session for Time To Get Alone on Oct 15th according to Badman.. is that correct info, Andrew?

If there's AFM confirmation, yes. If not, then no. I think I know where Badman got a lot of his non-AFM musician info, and it's questionable. Craig would know more on this, but currently he's, ah, doing something else. 

[Rocker]

Steve Hoffman 03-30-2004, 01:13 PM
DARLIN' (like several other songs on Wild Honey) is just a "snippet" spliced up to full length. Listen carefully and you can hear the edits where they start it over about halfway through. Listen to the final fade out. It starts going into the verse again. http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-31329.html

I believe it's the same on "Here comes the night" and maybe some others

[guitarfool2002]

James Jamerson migrated to the Fender P-Bass after playing acoustic upright, so his technique was developed and his fingers were hardened already, and that was a big part of his attack. Carol Kaye migrated to the P-Bass after playing guitar, so her use of a pick to play those basslines was the major part of her attack. It's neat to trace the origins of these sounds: It didn't happen in a vacuum!  Add Paul McCartney and Joe Osborn (both pick-style players) along with Ray Pohlman and maybe a few others and those 60's bass sounds are still among the best and most influential (to me at least!)

I gave Wild Honey a listen yesterday. The most polished and advanced-sounding track on the album is Darlin, and it sounds tighter and more driving than what surrounds it. It's as if Darlin came from another place, and actually it did in some ways. Those drums on Darlin are superior to every drum track on the album, which leads me to believe it was a drummer on the level of Jim Gordon or Hal. The "glue" holding it all together, on nearly every track, is Brian's detuned piano. His sense of drive and rhythm on that piano throughout most of Wild Honey's tracks is an overlooked element: The guy was awesome on piano and this album needed his piano to hold the rhythms together. The most advanced track for bass if I Was Made To Love Her - again, none of the core Beach Boys band could have played a bassline like that and even the other instruments apart from Brian's piano seem to be playing catch-up to Carol's bass. It's not as tight as a Motown session, or Wrecking Crew session might be, but her and Brian hold it together.

Every time I hear the album I remember how much I love hearing Brian grooving away at that detuned piano.

[Rocker]

The "glue" holding it all together, on nearly every track, is Brian's detuned piano. His sense of drive and rhythm on that piano throughout most of Wild Honey's tracks is an overlooked element: The guy was awesome on piano and this album needed his piano to hold the rhythms together.

Every time I hear the album I remember how much I love hearing Brian grooving away at that detuned piano.

Indeed, Brian had/has a fantastic feel for rhythm.

[OBLiO]

Every time I hear the album I remember how much I love hearing Brian grooving away at that detuned piano.

Where was that piano located? I am thinking he recorded the piano part at his home studio and then had the bass and drums tracked at Wally Heider's... (if the Badman info is correct it does say tracked at Heider's)... did Brian move that piano around or did it stay put in his studio? That might explain why the songs are in snippets. I think the original idea for a home studio was for the muse at 3am... he could just go in and record ideas... you get sections of this and that... but that Darlin tune... yeah, that song does cook along... Brian was making a hit record and think about how that song would sound with the Three Dog Night vocal style. Number 1 hit?

I posted a vid from youtube I found of a show in december '67... listen to Dennis and Bruce on Barbara Ann... they are cookin'.
I am starting to think it is Dennis and Bruce playing on Darlin'. And there is a guy in the background playing bass on God Only Knows... Ron Brown?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgIscI9NL_Y

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's just those fills going into the breaks on Darlin that are so wildly different than the rest of Wild Honey. The rest of the drum track is just as basic as the remainer of the album. With the tambourine whacking away the whole time, it's almost impossible to tell if time is being kept with a hi-hat. I suspect a hi-hat is there, but it's too hard to really tell. Either way, there's nothing so advanced going on drum-wise that Dennis wasn't capable of handling at that time.... Think about all the killer drum tracks that we were all previously sure just HAD to have been Hal Blaine but ended up being Dennis.

[OBLiO]

It's just those fills going into the breaks on Darlin that are so wildly different than the rest of Wild Honey. The rest of the drum track is just as basic as the remainer of the album. With the tambourine whacking away the whole time, it's almost impossible to tell if time is being kept with a hi-hat. I suspect a hi-hat is there, but it's too hard to really tell. Either way, there's nothing so advanced going on drum-wise that Dennis wasn't capable of handling at that time.... Think about all the killer drum tracks that we were all previously sure just HAD to have been Hal Blaine but ended up being Dennis.

Listened some more... 8th note hi-hat under the tambourine. It's those tom/snare combos. I don't hear any guitar on the track. I watched the Beach Boys 25th anniversary with Three Dog Night... this is just the clip I found of that song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlecMWk_lUU&NR=1

[WaxOn]

I posted a vid from youtube I found of a show in december '67... listen to Dennis and Bruce on Barbara Ann... they are cookin'.
I am starting to think it is Dennis and Bruce playing on Darlin'. And there is a guy in the background playing bass on God Only Knows... Ron Brown?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgIscI9NL_Y

Bitchin' vid!
After all the searches I've done on youtube I never turned that one up.
Theramin and everything! Wish I could see more of the other players.