Well said and I agree, Nicole.  People always worry about the name, including me at times, but in twenty years the Beach Boys won't be evaluated according to what's happening now, any more than the Drifters or the Coasters are for the various bands that had those names in later years.  We all know what the legacy will be, and it's as safe as milk.

The only thing that I think would seriously affect the band's legacy from here forward is if in about twenty-five years BRI didn't renew the license, and on his last night as a Beach Boy, at the Opelika Pumpkin Festival, after closing with one final searing, chicken-dancing, instrument-smashing "Papa Oo Mow Mow", 93-year old Mike climbed to the top of a light tower, yelled "Top of the world, Ma!", and blew himself up, like Cagney in "White Heat".  But I really doubt that'll happen.

Wish I could express how truly sorry I am to hear this.  You've been on my mind very much for the last few days, and I'm sure a lot of other people's, too.  A lot of folks here care about you. Be well, and muddle through, friend.

Where in Atlanta did you run into him at?

On August 2, he played at a club downtown called Eddie's Attic.  It was a Sunday night, and on the previous Friday, with everything else going on, I got an e-mail from ESQ about their convention, followed a link to a blog with information about that, scrolled down, and was just boggled to spot a notice that David Marks would be playing a solo show here in Atlanta in about 52 hours. I tried to round up two buddies here in town from this board, and one who had also heard about it somehow tried to round me up, all with no luck.  Of course the last guy and I hooked up at the show.  When I walked in, there he was, the Lost Legend, just walking around like a person, and mingling.

I spotted Carrie and introduced myself, and she brought Dave over, and I got to talk to him for a few minutes before the show, and a good while afterward.  Oddly, we talked about just about everything but the Beach Boys. It was a great experience in itself to connect with a guy like that, but the show itself...when I get the time and energy I'll write a review of that either as its own thread or added to Carrie's thread above.

This sort of thing doesn't really happen in Atlanta much; it made me nostalgic for Burbank, when I was right near everything and everybody all the time. I used to always think that one day I'd go to the movies and there would be Brian, sitting with his hand on his chin.  Happened to friends of mine. I never spotted him out and about, though.

I told Carrie that I had looked Dave up in the Burbank phone book in the nineties, and thought he lived right behind me, but she told me, after all these years, that Dave was unlisted and that was another guy.  Dave added that the guy had not only the same first and last name, but the same middle name, too, with the result that Dave once got pulled over for speeding and then hauled in by the cops on that guy's warrant.

I used to have a terrific interview with Brian on tape from 1988, when he was out promoting the solo album.  It was one of those rare appearances of "lucid" Brian, and he was answering great questions about stuff like "Guess I'm Dumb", Derek Taylor, and "River Deep, Mountain High" and was fully engaged in the conversation.  He was asked about the high voice and why he stopped singing in that range, and he said "I just thought the time for that voice had passed."

Great question.

My alcoholic disgrace has long since been a public spectacle, sir. I'm not too worried about it. Let the world enjoy our un-edited posts in all their glory.

And also, slightly more on topic, do you think in his more lucid moments it bothers Brian to know he's been the worst singer on the stage every single time he's been on one in the past 30 years? Considering his previous virtuosity, it must. Think about it. It would kill a guy.

Incidentally, my comments above, as I should have said, referred to "Airplane".  (I'm also crazily drunk, posting from my knees and vomiting into a trash can between syllables).

You know, after all these years I just have no insight into Brian's mind.  The change that began in the Spring of 1967 is so complete by this point- except on those very rare occasions as late as '88 when we sawglimpses of "Old Brian"- that I just can't really answer that question, but it's a good question and I've thought about it in various forms. One thing, to me, about his current singing is that he often seems emotionally disconnected from it.

And as a sort of answer to that, when I saw this video, it went through my mind that by this time Brian was so surrounded by positivity and total approval whenever he attempted anything that he may have lost some additional perspective on himself, as happens to almost all rock stars.  "I'm Brian Wilson, I make hit records with the wave of my hand...what, me off key?  Me?"

[Love You]

Man, ya blew it Luther!  You were supposed to silently edit your post, and then I'd silently edit mine, thus concealing your alcoholic disgrace and making me an enabler.

Brian clearly doesn't belong on that stage, but I really like how Mike sort of sells the song. His performance has a lot of sincerity.  The lyrics are a little less distracting to me live, too. I wish Love You had been able to cop a little of this energy.

Agree, Luther- it was a tasteless freak show.  Haven't checked out your link yet, but will as soon as Bowie finishes up on my iTunes.

Heads up: someone will dog you out now for typing "cousin" for "brother" after Carl.

Horrible, sad news. What a career.  The first thing that entered my head was "Bridge Over Troubled Water", a whole career in itself.  His work will live forever.

I hope he was interviewed relentlessly.  Hang in there, Josh.

Happy Birthday to a hell of a great guy and a tremendous talent and spirit, and fellow Burbank survivor.  Had the pleasure to meet (and bother) Mr. and Mrs. Marks here in Atlanta a few weeks ago, and- along with the stellar, very spontaneous performance he gave us- it's one of those rare Beach Boys moments I'll treasure until they box me up.

Spotting my copy of the book and the pen in my hand, he motioned me over to the bar where a meal had just been placed before him. Here's the opening dialogue:

SJ: I really hate to bother a guy while he's eating dinner.
DM (big David Marks grin, handshake  extended): B___s___!

A hell of a guy, God bless 'em both, and Happy Birthday.

Red Bull lifted to DLM on what I'll call the Roger Maris birthday. A twenty-one squirt gun salute.

Now give us another album.

Thoughts are very much with you, Andrew.  I went through this in February.  Just spend every second you can with her and you'll have nothing to regret.

To paraphrase someone (Emerson, I think) - censure is the price a man pays for eminence.

I always thought it was Carrot Top who said that, after his performance on "The New Hollywood Squares" was panned by the critics.

Seriously, excellent post.

[SMiLE]

Something to keep in mind: the premise of SMiLE being finished and released in 1967 would seem to rely on Brian staving off his collapse a little longer. But the release of SMiLE probably wouldn't have solved his problems any more than the release of Pet Sounds had, especially if it was greeted in the mixed way most here have agreed it would have been. He was heading into a major depression, probably inevitably, that caused him to withdraw and lose focus.  It hovered so heavily over SMiLE from about December 1966 onward that it's hard to separate it from his work. And then, by almost all accounts and evidence, he utterly stopped being the same guy.

So I think to theorize a different Wild Honey or a different Friends, and so on, you have to extend the premise that he kept it together a little longer, and then a little longer. That's more than I can see in any crystal ball.

Nice catch, Ebb- hadn't heard that one.  Harsh response, if so- they killed off Brian's "Surfer Girl".

Beach Boys should have replied quickly with "Sherry Got Hit By A Bus", backed with "My Rag Doll Is Now Turning Tricks (For Drug Money)".  That would have shut 'em up.

[SMiLE]

I would, too, Sheriff, but I don't think you can really rank 85-90% of an album, which is what I think SMiLE (67) is at best.

I think it would have been about as baffling to the base audience as Pet Sounds was, but I think it would have gotten a huge prestige boost from the usual crowd in England. "Good Vibrations" would have set the table pretty well, too. By later 1967 everyone was trying to do out-there stuff- even Chad and Jeremy- and they would have seemed right on pace or just ahead of the curve.  I think the big distinction between SMiLE and Pepper (which had no single) is that "Worms" (the one everybody seems to name) and "Vegetables" and "Wonderful" were never going to be as crowd-pleasing as "Getting Better" and "She's Leaving Home" and "Mr. Kite".  But who knows? Something like the 2004 album, with 1967 voices and performances, would have been awfully hard to ignore.

I think the Four Seasons were just kind of the ultimate East Coast greaser hodads, besides being chart rivals of the Beach Boys, who, as you know, were all real surfers in real life and just lived on those waves and hung ten constantly- especially Murry. 

Also, I think Brian gave them a nod musically and lyrically because he really liked them.

[Sergeant Pepper]

Erik: "Sergeant Pepper would have kicked our ass."- Brian Wilson, 1988.  I think that was his total answer to the question this thread poses, in that interview.

Luther: I agree, and would only add that as opposed to Forever Changes, etc, SMiLE would also have been the respected home of "Good Vibrations".  So in that sense it might have had a place at least similar to Pet Sounds', or really a little better since it housed the band's biggest hit. Pet Sounds hung around and started to come into its own and make the lists in the early eighties when Paul McCartney started plugging it, among other things.  That was when I went out and bought it.

Overall, a remarkably peaceful band when it came to credits.  ... credited a song entirely to whoever was the primary guy.

I wonder if Queen were that way, too. I know that they gave the primary songwriter creative control on his own tunes, but I find it hard to believe that four such musically powerful voices weren't contributing to one another's music more often than the credits show. Of course, being such strong voices, maybe each of them really took control of his own songs and kept the others from getting two cents in...

It all cycles back to the compelling question of when songwriting occurs, vs. arranging or improvising.  Listen to Santana's version of "She's Not There": if someone in the band had brought the song in as an original, written by him, and it consisted of what the Zombies did, and then somebody else contributed that great opening lick that sets the tone in the Santana version, I think that guy would certainly rate a credit.  But since it was a cover, he doesn't. There must be a zillion examples like that.  Joe Cocker's "With A Little Help From My Friends" uses a musically different chorus, on which the whole song is rebuilt, but no one will ever be credited for that or receive specific royalties because the song was already registered. 

Erik, I think Robert Johnson's authorship of the songs he recorded is an open question in many cases.  With a lot of blues stuff you just go back to the earliest known recorded version of the song, or printed reference to it, or whatever.  1936 is usually far enough back to take the cake, but who knows where the song was before that?  I think I've seen "Dust My Broom" credited to Elmore James, even though Johnson's version is twenty years older than the James version I have, and I think the Rolling Stones' "Love In Vain" was just listed as a traditional arranged by them at some stage, not sure, and "Crossroads" by Clapton may have been credited as traditional as well.

The best recent example of this is the continued legal wrangling over the credit of "Whiter Shade of Pale" Matthew Fisher, the organist on the song, has pursued not only a credit, but royalties, for coming up with the distinctive riff.

Of course, the riff is adapted from Bach, and that's an entirely different level.

claymcc, what confuses me is that the Frankie Lymon/Morris Levy suit was thrown out in the early nineties (presumably at a pretty high level) under a ruling that "long neglected rights cannot be enforced".   I thought for sure that this would end all disputes from the fifties and sixties, but then came Brian vs. Mike, Axton/"Joy To The World", Johnson vs. Berry, and as you mention, "Whiter Shade", which I think the guy won on- is that right?  So it seems to me that "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" needs a new trial.  They should sue the carcass of ol' Morris Levy one more time.

Well, Erik, don't trust my memory until somebody confirms or adds details.

The guy who challenged L/M on a few things was Harrison, who ("I think"- the official SJ disclaimer) publicly said in about 1988 that he had co-written "I Feel Fine" in the back of a cab, only to have McCartney disagree and say that it was John's song. I think Harrison said he was undercredited on a few others.

But then, John said he had co-written "Taxman", and George pretty clearly contributed to "Octopus' Garden".  Overall, a remarkably peaceful band when it came to credits.  John and Paul were the anti-Brian and Mike in many ways.  John apparently dismissed anything he thought was a small contribution and credited a song entirely to whoever was the primary guy. In that spirit, he said he had not contributed anything to "Penny Lane".  Paul confirmed that John had written "Strawberry Fields Forever" with no input from Paul, but disputed John on "Penny Lane" citing many lines that John had contributed.

I think they basically disagreed on two songs- "In My Life" and "Eleanor Rigby", and I think they were probably either honest disagreements or a product of the fact that John was gone before Paul had access to his comments and it could be sorted out.

  phenomena (phenomenon?)

The singular is phenomenon.

Great examples, by the way. And yes, I think it applies to music (or can, anyway).

Thanks (on both counts), Luther!

But it DIDN'T survive!

Didn't Sir Paul recently "revert" some credits to credit him as the sole composer??

Not sure about that.  I know he wanted his name first on a few songs he wrote entirely by himself, notably "Yesterday", which seems reasonable, but I think Yoko refused.  I think McCartney's name was removed from some stuff like "Give Peace A Chance" that he didn't touch, and replaced with Yoko's. Then I think McCartney listed them with his name first on a live album, and Yoko didn't challenge him, but the official credits still read the old way.  Somebody here will know for sure.

The whole Lennon/McCartney, McCartney/Lennon thing was nebulous from the start.  There were some early songs issued as McCartney/Lennon, then reverted later, I think.

As an example of how tricky it is, did Manzarek's great keyboard riff even make it into Jose Feliciano's top five version of the song?  I guess if you went into the cover versions, sometimes it would be there and sometimes it wouldn't. Do you credit Manzarek only when the organ intro is used?  And personally, I don't think drumming rises to the level of songwriting in the vast majority of cases, but that's just me. For some reason I had always thought "Light My Fire"  was just written by Krieger, didn't realize there was a story there.

But creativity is really interesting and complicated, for sure.

There's a phenomena (phenomenon?) I've personally noticed by which when you have a bunch of people in a room working on something creative, sometimes people will tend to think that ideas that happened in the room (or seemed to) while they were present came from them. It's not that they're lying, it's a legitimate mis-impression.  I think it happens when someone presents an idea and others recognize it and experience something like the "light bulb" sensation- "Oh, I get it, I see" gets mixed in with "that came from me"- especially after time has passed. 

Or, the light bulb moment can be built up and approached steadily until several people take the next logical step together. In that case it can be impossible to know where an idea came from.  And yet another thing that happens is when creative people work together for long enough their minds can get synched up and they start thinking alike in real time- "Do this"'.../"...I'm way ahead of you..."

I don't know for sure if this happens in music but I've seen it repeatedly in story sessions for films I worked on in my former career. I've had ideas I had saved for an upcoming sequence for a month, had full notes on them, pitched them in a meeting when they came up, only to  see people who were in the meeting explain later how they got the idea- and I don't think they weren't dishonest people. The credit for inconsequential work-for-hire b.s. didn't matter at all in those cases, but the phenomena interested me because I think they really believed what they were saying. I think this because I had it happen to me a couple times, too- I'd go through an earlier draft of the script and find that something I thought I came up with had been there all along. Or maybe it went out and I just brought it back in.  But there's a definite phenomena there for non-dishonest over-claiming, and I always see songwriting disputes in light of this.

Mike definitely plays some guitar, I think that was established here once, possibly when his oldest daughter was on.

I remember her telling a story on here about him playing Brian's Back for her on the guitar while he was still working on it

There you go, thanks, hart- I've just learned not to trust my memory.  She was a cool breeze, wish she'd stuck around a little more.

As to the titles, this thread should be called "What Love Can Do".