Campaign 2016

[the captain]

I don't think anyone here is championing this is some sort of golden age for public education. The question is how to fix it. Many of us don't see political correctness as a/the major problem.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

We are at war with the Middle East

I might suggest that that statement is inaccurate.

[the captain]

Emily - basic skills such as teaching phonics, math facts have been usurped by ad hoc educational companies that are in business to sell their wares to schools.  The job of the public school is to teach reading, writing and math, civil education, phys. ed. etc.  These are vulnerable populations who are being exploited by universities and business under the guise of "support."  

Often school systems will allow universities, even foreign ones to use classrooms in poorer and urban settings as labs for their research, so some doctoral candidate will get their degree.  That is immoral and unethical.  

When a book company or a food vendor  wants to sell product to a system, they lobby the school boards at national conventions such as the Great City Schools, or other fora to market their goods, from food such as Kellogg's or General Mills.

Took me a bit to get the name of the entity, but here's an egregious example of corporate interests being crammed down children's throats in the name of public education.

https://www.jaum.org/programs/ja-biztown/

Their mission? Pasted from their website:

Core Values
- Belief in the boundless potential of young people.
- Commitment to the principles of market-based economics and entrepreneurship.
- Passion for what we do and honesty, integrity, and excellence in how we do it.
- Respect for the talents, creativity, perspectives, and backgrounds of all individuals.
- Belief in the power of partnership and collaboration.
- Conviction in the educational and motivational impact of relevant, hands-on learning.

Hmm. One of these is not like the other.

But on the positive side, they have materials for teachers to use in class! Oh goodie!

[filledeplage]

I don't think anyone here is championing this is some sort of golden age for public education. The question is how to fix it. Many of us don't see political correctness as a/the major problem.

Captain - I am a traditionalist.  I always had an abacus (counting frame) regardless of the grade.  And in early education, wooden blocks for building, Duplos, paint, easels, puzzles, peg boards, big books; the basics that kids could use the media in a low tech manner.  Develop the imagination and attention span.  

Values do creep in when books are selected.  

It is a delicate balance not to usurp the role of parents to teach children.  The job is to teach the skills so that the kids can grow and develop their own value system when they are grown and not to impose some other model.  

[the captain]

I don't think anyone here is championing this is some sort of golden age for public education. The question is how to fix it. Many of us don't see political correctness as a/the major problem.

Captain - I am a traditionalist.  I always had an abacus (counting frame) regardless of the grade.  And in early education, wooden blocks for building, Duplos, paint, easels, puzzles, peg boards, big books; the basics that kids could use the media in a low tech manner.  Develop the imagination and attention span.  

Values do creep in when books are selected.  

It is a delicate balance not to usurp the role of parents to teach children.  The job is to teach the skills so that the kids can grow and develop their own value system when they are grown and not to impose some other model.  

For the most part, I don't know what that has to do with what I said. But regarding values, that's true. And it cuts in many directions. The role of the parents may be to be sufficiently involved as to help their children-students see how values are inherently a part of education. Unfortunately many parents seem to think these "values" they need to instill in their children have to do with discrimination and disbelief in science. Parents, by and large, are unqualified to teach children beyond a certain age.

[filledeplage]

We are at war with the Middle East

I might suggest that that statement is inaccurate.

OK - I framed that poorly - we are involved in the Middle East. 

That said, there is a overall "cluelessness" of what the terrain is (geographic topography) what the natural resources, customs, weather and climate, languages, etc. 

[Emily]

Emily - Basic skills are not being taught as well or thoroughly.  Phonics is downplayed in the US.  It is a big deal elsewhere.  For example "dictation" (dictée) has been all but abandoned in some systems because it is considered "too hard" for some.  No diagramming of sentences to learn the function of the parts of speech.  

Math facts are not emphasized and they cannot add up a vertical column of numbers.  They need to break it down horizontally, into ones, tens, and hundreds. They are not learning the times tables in a rigorous fashion.  They don't know geography because it is not taught as a separate subject.  It is incidental to social studies.  

We are at war with the Middle East but the kids cannot tell you what the countries are in the Middle East, nor can they name the capitals of the United States. That is for starters. They can't tell you what countries speak what languages and why.  (Always a good lead-in lesson on the evils of colonialism.)  

This is the state of public education.  It is no wonder that charter schools which can offer more traditional teaching are doing as well as they are.

As I said, I agree schools suck but
1. I'm still wondering how you link it to 'political correctness'
2. Regarding math - I would prefer that teachers not think at all in terms of 'math facts' but 'math logic'. The whole concept of 'math facts' is a sign that there's something wrong with how we approach math education. Also, they don't need to break it down horizontally and they do ultimately learn to do it vertically. The horizontally thing is an attempt to improve the understanding of numbers in base 10. It's a step in the right direction. But one problem is that the people writing the curricula understand math better than the teachers usually. The teachers don't understand the concept, so they're teaching the horizontal thing as just another mechanical action, just another 'math fact'.
3. Regarding language - dictation and phonics are additional ways to teach mechanics but not understanding.
4. US public education has been a disaster for a long time. The main problems are: we don't support teaching as a profession - we treat it more as a hobby for mothers; we are a deeply anti-intellectual culture; and education is highly politicized, particularly by the right. The last is a more recent development that you can put squarely on the shoulders of Ralph Reed.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?

[Emily]

Emily - basic skills such as teaching phonics, math facts have been usurped by ad hoc educational companies that are in business to sell their wares to schools.  The job of the public school is to teach reading, writing and math, civil education, phys. ed. etc.  These are vulnerable populations who are being exploited by universities and business under the guise of "support."  

Often school systems will allow universities, even foreign ones to use classrooms in poorer and urban settings as labs for their research, so some doctoral candidate will get their degree.  That is immoral and unethical.  

When a book company or a food vendor  wants to sell product to a system, they lobby the school boards at national conventions such as the Great City Schools, or other fora to market their goods, from food such as Kellogg's or General Mills.

Took me a bit to get the name of the entity, but here's an egregious example of corporate interests being crammed down children's throats in the name of public education.

https://www.jaum.org/programs/ja-biztown/

Their mission? Pasted from their website:

Core Values
- Belief in the boundless potential of young people.
- Commitment to the principles of market-based economics and entrepreneurship.
- Passion for what we do and honesty, integrity, and excellence in how we do it.
- Respect for the talents, creativity, perspectives, and backgrounds of all individuals.
- Belief in the power of partnership and collaboration.
- Conviction in the educational and motivational impact of relevant, hands-on learning.

Hmm. One of these is not like the other.

But on the positive side, they have materials for teachers to use in class! Oh goodie!

More neo-liberal brainwashing. They call it 'libertarianism' around these parts and pretend it's radical, but it's been the driving philosophy of both parties since the '80s.

We are at war with the Middle East

I might suggest that that statement is inaccurate.

[the captain]

More neo-liberal brainwashing. They call it 'libertarianism' around these parts and pretend it's radical, but it's been the driving philosophy of both parties since the '80s.

Yep. I learned of it when a friend (far more progressive than I am) was student-teaching 6th graders and told this was on their agenda. He was thrilled...

The sad thing is, it's only today I learned it was sponsored by Junior Achievement, for which my employer spent several years raising funds as a show of "corporate citizenship and charity." I'm pleased to note I am the one who stopped said fundraising. (Own horn now sufficiently tooted.)

[filledeplage]

Emily - Basic skills are not being taught as well or thoroughly.  Phonics is downplayed in the US.  It is a big deal elsewhere.  For example "dictation" (dictée) has been all but abandoned in some systems because it is considered "too hard" for some.  No diagramming of sentences to learn the function of the parts of speech.  

Math facts are not emphasized and they cannot add up a vertical column of numbers.  They need to break it down horizontally, into ones, tens, and hundreds. They are not learning the times tables in a rigorous fashion.  They don't know geography because it is not taught as a separate subject.  It is incidental to social studies.  

We are at war with the Middle East but the kids cannot tell you what the countries are in the Middle East, nor can they name the capitals of the United States. That is for starters. They can't tell you what countries speak what languages and why.  (Always a good lead-in lesson on the evils of colonialism.)  

This is the state of public education.  It is no wonder that charter schools which can offer more traditional teaching are doing as well as they are.

As I said, I agree schools suck but
1. I'm still wondering how you link it to 'political correctness'
2. Regarding math - I would prefer that teachers not think at all in terms of 'math facts' but 'math logic'. The whole concept of 'math facts' is a sign that there's something wrong with how we approach math education. Also, they don't need to break it down horizontally and they do ultimately learn to do it vertically. The horizontally thing is an attempt to improve the understanding of numbers in base 10. It's a step in the right direction. But one problem is that the people writing the curricula understand math better than the teachers usually. The teachers don't understand the concept, so they're teaching the horizontal thing as just another mechanical action, just another 'math fact'.
3. Regarding language - dictation and phonics are additional ways to teach mechanics but not understanding.
4. US public education has been a disaster for a long time. The main problems are: we don't support teaching as a profession - we treat it more as a hobby for mothers; we are a deeply anti-intellectual culture; and education is highly politicized, particularly by the right. The last is a more recent development that you can put squarely on the shoulders of Ralph Reed.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?

Emily - if the kids don't know the facts first, they don't get the logic, later.

They need to be able to go to the store, buy a milky way (or popcorn) and get change, and not be cheated.  Those are essential skills.  Yes, it is base ten.  You don't get to the concept and framework of base ten until you have the entire framework in your head.  The abacus is base ten. Mesopotamian 2700-2300 BC.

Dictation develops and enhances proper spelling, listening skills and auditory processing in children.  It is not a useless old fashioned skill.

It is a troubling sexist teacher concept of a "hobby for mothers." Those who feel that way should spend some time as substitute teachers.  They would be cured.    

Education is more negatively impacted profession from the left in my opinion, but more of a vehicle for business to both privatize it rather than publicly managed by the citizens. That means contract bidding, for books, hardware, furniture and equipment, and and nothing to do whatever with teaching and learning.    

[the captain]

Education is more negatively impacted profession from the left in my opinion, but more of a vehicle for business to both privatize it rather than publicly managed by the citizens. That means contract bidding, for books, hardware, furniture and equipment, and and nothing to do whatever with teaching and learning.    

Maybe I'm misunderstanding these sentences, but how is the latter sentence and a half "from the left?" Privatization and corporate contract bidding are hardly progressive causes.

[the captain]

PS I'll have to get my answer later. It's time to drink and read and watch some basketball so I can discuss the Pistons with Mr. Verlander later. Have fun, all.

[Emily]

More neo-liberal brainwashing. They call it 'libertarianism' around these parts and pretend it's radical, but it's been the driving philosophy of both parties since the '80s.

Yep. I learned of it when a friend (far more progressive than I am) was student-teaching 6th graders and told this was on their agenda. He was thrilled...

The sad thing is, it's only today I learned it was sponsored by Junior Achievement, for which my employer spent several years raising funds as a show of "corporate citizenship and charity." I'm pleased to note I am the one who stopped said fundraising. (Own horn now sufficiently tooted.)

Good for you. They do Junior Achievement at my daughter's school. I have to unlearn her sometimes.

[Emily]

Emily - Basic skills are not being taught as well or thoroughly.  Phonics is downplayed in the US.  It is a big deal elsewhere.  For example "dictation" (dictée) has been all but abandoned in some systems because it is considered "too hard" for some.  No diagramming of sentences to learn the function of the parts of speech.  

Math facts are not emphasized and they cannot add up a vertical column of numbers.  They need to break it down horizontally, into ones, tens, and hundreds. They are not learning the times tables in a rigorous fashion.  They don't know geography because it is not taught as a separate subject.  It is incidental to social studies.  

We are at war with the Middle East but the kids cannot tell you what the countries are in the Middle East, nor can they name the capitals of the United States. That is for starters. They can't tell you what countries speak what languages and why.  (Always a good lead-in lesson on the evils of colonialism.)  

This is the state of public education.  It is no wonder that charter schools which can offer more traditional teaching are doing as well as they are.

As I said, I agree schools suck but
1. I'm still wondering how you link it to 'political correctness'
2. Regarding math - I would prefer that teachers not think at all in terms of 'math facts' but 'math logic'. The whole concept of 'math facts' is a sign that there's something wrong with how we approach math education. Also, they don't need to break it down horizontally and they do ultimately learn to do it vertically. The horizontally thing is an attempt to improve the understanding of numbers in base 10. It's a step in the right direction. But one problem is that the people writing the curricula understand math better than the teachers usually. The teachers don't understand the concept, so they're teaching the horizontal thing as just another mechanical action, just another 'math fact'.
3. Regarding language - dictation and phonics are additional ways to teach mechanics but not understanding.
4. US public education has been a disaster for a long time. The main problems are: we don't support teaching as a profession - we treat it more as a hobby for mothers; we are a deeply anti-intellectual culture; and education is highly politicized, particularly by the right. The last is a more recent development that you can put squarely on the shoulders of Ralph Reed.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?

Emily - if the kids don't know the facts first, they don't get the logic, later.

They need to be able to go to the store, buy a milky way (or popcorn) and get change, and not be cheated.  Those are essential skills.  Yes, it is base ten.  You don't get to the concept and framework of base ten until you have the entire framework in your head.  The abacus is base ten. Mesopotamian 2700-2300 BC.

Dictation develops and enhances proper spelling, listening skills and auditory processing in children.  It is not a useless old fashioned skill.

It is a troubling sexist teacher concept of a "hobby for mothers." Those who feel that way should spend some time as substitute teachers.  They would be cured.    

Education is more negatively impacted profession from the left in my opinion, but more of a vehicle for business to both privatize it rather than publicly managed by the citizens. That means contract bidding, for books, hardware, furniture and equipment, and and nothing to do whatever with teaching and learning.    

It is sexist that teaching in our country is a hobby for mothers and it is a shame that corporate interests are having such influence over the curricula as well as religious and pro-confederate crazy interests. Otherwise, we don't agree. Specifically on the math. The 'facts' come from the logic. If you learn the logic you never need to memorize 'facts'. The memorization approach to math that US schools have been following forever is why the US sucks at math AND logic. This is one tiny area that we are going in the right direction with education. However, the problem still remains that math teachers don't usually understand math. They memorized a bunch of facts.
Further, I wonder if we taught math properly would we have the same problems with the electorate being so stupid? Perhaps not. People aren't taught to think in the US. Just to memorize junk and believe in "the principals of market-based economics and entrepreneurship."

How do you link political correctness to all this?

[filledeplage]

Education is more negatively impacted profession from the left in my opinion, but more of a vehicle for business to both privatize it rather than publicly managed by the citizens. That means contract bidding, for books, hardware, furniture and equipment, and and nothing to do whatever with teaching and learning.    

Maybe I'm misunderstanding these sentences, but how is the latter sentence and a half "from the left?" Privatization and corporate contract bidding are hardly progressive causes.

Emily - the "left" meaning liberal side of educational philosophy.  And privatization by substituting corporate based centers to replace public education.  

Contract bidding has more to do with who feeds the kids, who transports them, whose books they read.  It is multi billion in some cities, and those who are in the vendor business spend thousands lobbying the politicians to ensure that they are among the vendors selected for their products. Sorry, if I was not clear.

[Emily]

Education is more negatively impacted profession from the left in my opinion, but more of a vehicle for business to both privatize it rather than publicly managed by the citizens. That means contract bidding, for books, hardware, furniture and equipment, and and nothing to do whatever with teaching and learning.    

Maybe I'm misunderstanding these sentences, but how is the latter sentence and a half "from the left?" Privatization and corporate contract bidding are hardly progressive causes.

Emily - the "left" meaning liberal side of educational philosophy.  And privatization by substituting corporate based centers to replace public education.  

Contract bidding has more to do with who feeds the kids, who transports them, whose books they read.  It is multi billion in some cities, and those who are in the vendor business spend thousands lobbying the politicians to ensure that they are among the vendors selected for their products. Sorry, if I was not clear.

That was the captain's question.

[the captain]

And I remain confused. I know what privatization and contract bidding processes are. I don't see them as problems caused by the left.

[filledeplage]

And I remain confused. I know what privatization and contract bidding processes are. I don't see them as problems caused by the left.

Captain - my bad on the explanation. In large metropolitan school systems, there is often a desire to mold and model education, and colleges/universities use the opportunity to place student teachers, and offer professional development (which is a good thing) but, the negative aspect of this is to test-out various experimentation of their graduate and doctoral students. 

They are often allowed to test-market programs and testing instruments at will.  They are given wide latitude.  If they have friends in administration, in the school system, it often can change curriculum to cause textbooks written by these individuals to be purchased, or programs involving new "methods and materials." That is an oversimplification of my experience.

That is not to say that trying new things is not a great thing, but if the "new methods" are not workable with the students, it makes for a bad teaching-learning situation and stifles any reasonable "academic freedom" in the classrooms.  Many come in with a "superior attitude" which goes over like a lead balloon, and these "methods and materials" and pre and post-testing only serves to advance someone's doctoral research, creating few or no benefit to the students.   

They are being used for "experimentation," often without parental consent and deviating from the regular curriculum.  It matters not to the university that vulnerable populations are being subject to learning that has been interrupted or delayed for the sake of someone's doctorate.  So, there is this "culture" in the academic world, I think that needs resolution.  For the most part, it is the left-leaning universities, rather than those that are more conservative, who engage in these practices. 

This is very different from a student teaching program, which many are familiar with, whereby a student in a teacher-track spends a semester in a classroom, for credit to gradually learn the skill set required to handle a classroom.  At various intervals in the semester, the professors come in and observe the student teacher in that role and offer suggestions for improvement, and get feedback from the host teacher.  They have an opportunity to try out things they learned in their program as well as learn the methods in the host teacher classroom. The students get some extra small group and individual attention and if the student teacher works out well often is offered a job opportunity as well as a recommendation.   

---The vendors are often large book/school supply companies/classroom furniture suppliers who lobby school systems to provide classroom furniture, sporting goods, computers and software, paper and pencils, and anything else you would need in a school. One form of privatization is when jobs that are taught by school systems are "contracted out" to private educational companies.

 

[the captain]

None of that is relevant to my question unless you're assuming all of these tests or materials are from the left. Which I have already demonstrated is not true. I'd say the vast majority are from corporate interests, which is most certainly not the left.

[SMiLE Brian]

"Scratching" my head myself....

[Chocolate Shake Man]

And while we're at it, just to throw a wrench into this, I might add that liberals aren't on the left either.

[the captain]

And while we're at it, just to throw a wrench into this, I might add that liberals aren't on the left either.

Don't even start! 

The sad part is, it's not even clear in which sense you want to say that! Classical liberals not being left-wing? That's true. Modern "liberals" being used as a synonym for Democrats, who are assumed to be the left-wing party, not being a left-wing party? That's true. It's wrong on several levels!

I've said before, but one of my challenges in political discussions is that you can try to be precise, but usually that just confuses things for your fellow conversationalists.

[The Cincinnati Kid]

1. I know many people who attended college or grad school at the best institutions and learned virtually nothing. The student is responsible for learning. The institution is only responsible for teaching.

I hate to stereotype, but I'll share a personal observation: many of the people with whom I've worked over the years who came from privileged backgrounds that allowed them educations at some of the finest schools seem to have learned the least in college. They were admitted because they could afford it and probably came from great high schools, they (apparently) coasted through, they made connections, and they jumped into good jobs. Oh, and inevitably they were business majors... Conversely, many people who paid their own way, or whose families struggled to help them through college, took it more seriously.

That's not to say plenty of people from a variety of backgrounds f***ed off through college, or that no "rich kids" were smart and did indeed learn. But in my experience, anyway, it's the privileged, whose resumes look so good, learned the least.

I'm in college right now and completely agree.  I changed my major to a business major and the type of students are like a night and day difference compared to my old one (statistics).  Also agree about having connections.  Much more important than good grades (as long as you're not failing, of course). 

[Douchepool]

Hillary takes New York. Bernie fans are distraught. I'm having another beer and enjoying the whinging from my #FeelTheBern friends (real life friends, that is).

[Emily]

Hillary takes New York. Bernie fans are distraught. I'm having another beer and enjoying the whinging from my #FeelTheBern friends (real life friends, that is).

Did anyone really think he would win in NY?