Good Vibrations Success and Smile's Demise

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Something I forgot to mention about Bruce too, he thinks BWPS sounds much better live as opposed to the CD. He even says Brian shouldve just released a live CD with DVD footage rather than rerecord in the studio. Honestly, the whole interview gave me a totally newfound respect for Bruce. I appreciate how he can speak his mind in instances like that rather than just suck up to Brian--it makes all the praise for Pet Sounds, GV and SMiLE that much more genuine. He comes off like a really down to earth, no bullshitting, chill guy. Its great to hear him say things like that and how SJB doesnt fit on Pet Sounds--opinions I agree with but often get chewed out for by the "true fans" I think out of all the surviving Beach Boys, he's the one I could most enjoyably hang out with and talk music to, where Brian would be silent and wanting to leave and Mike bragging about Kokomo and the lyrics for GV.

[Emily]

Something I forgot to mention about Bruce too, he thinks BWPS sounds much better live as opposed to the CD. He even says Brian shouldve just released a live CD with DVD footage rather than rerecord in the studio. Honestly, the whole interview gave me a totally newfound respect for Bruce. I appreciate how he can speak his mind in instances like that rather than just suck up to Brian--it makes all the praise for Pet Sounds, GV and SMiLE that much more genuine. He comes off like a really down to earth, no bullshitting, chill guy. Its great to hear him say things like that and how SJB doesnt fit on Pet Sounds--opinions I agree with but often get chewed out for by the "true fans" I think out of all the surviving Beach Boys, he's the one I could most enjoyably hang out with and talk music to, where Brian would be silent and wanting to leave and Mike bragging about Kokomo and the lyrics for GV.

Bruce does give good interviews.
You forgot poor Al who has been getting more and more blunt as time passes.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Something I forgot to mention about Bruce too, he thinks BWPS sounds much better live as opposed to the CD. He even says Brian shouldve just released a live CD with DVD footage rather than rerecord in the studio. Honestly, the whole interview gave me a totally newfound respect for Bruce. I appreciate how he can speak his mind in instances like that rather than just suck up to Brian--it makes all the praise for Pet Sounds, GV and SMiLE that much more genuine. He comes off like a really down to earth, no bullshitting, chill guy. Its great to hear him say things like that and how SJB doesnt fit on Pet Sounds--opinions I agree with but often get chewed out for by the "true fans" I think out of all the surviving Beach Boys, he's the one I could most enjoyably hang out with and talk music to, where Brian would be silent and wanting to leave and Mike bragging about Kokomo and the lyrics for GV.

Bruce does give good interviews.
You forgot poor Al who has been getting more and more blunt as time passes.

Nothing against him. Hes a good guy. He just never made any particular impression on me. Al is Al. I gotta say I do feel bad for him sometimes, like Veggies story where he got left out of hearing the Sgt Pepper songs when Paul came to visit and being left out of both groups.

[The_Holy_Bee]

after the orchestra 'pit' reference, the 'drawn' brings my mind to the stage curtains being drawn.
Eta - this is meant as an addition, not a counter, to your very nice collection of references.

Excellent observation, Emily! Thank you.

[Micha]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

I disagree. I think the reason was the alienation between Brian and the rest of the group that had developed since Brian quit the road, both in human relations and artistically, and the fact that in the media coverage the other BBs were reduced to a little appendix to Brian. That production credit was to signify, "We're a group, not a king and his servants", and directed not so much at the public, but at the touring Beach Boys.


Surf's Up... I'm not happy with the arrangement the way it turned out for posterity either. In the first movement, the clinky-clanky percussion destroys the beauty of the melody, the harmonic elements are way too low, and it is still too fast IMHO. Too bad he didn't have the time to try another arrangement, and that we didn't get to hear the results of the January 1967 string overdub attempt. I like the horns arrangement though -  and that's mixed too low again in the TSS version. A real loss that it wasn't mastered in 1967 and never received the majestic soundscape of GOK or IJWMFTT.

[Cam Mott]

Whoops, sorry again.  Posted in the wrong thread.

[filledeplage]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

I disagree. I think the reason was the alienation between Brian and the rest of the group that had developed since Brian quit the road, both in human relations and artistically, and the fact that in the media coverage the other BBs were reduced to a little appendix to Brian. That production credit was to signify, "We're a group, not a king and his servants", and directed not so much at the public, but at the touring Beach Boys.


Surf's Up... I'm not happy with the arrangement the way it turned out for posterity either. In the first movement, the clinky-clanky percussion destroys the beauty of the melody, the harmonic elements are way too low, and it is still too fast IMHO. Too bad he didn't have the time to try another arrangement, and that we didn't get to hear the results of the January 1967 string overdub attempt. I like the horns arrangement though -  and that's mixed too low again in the TSS version. A real loss that it wasn't mastered in 1967 and never received the majestic soundscape of GOK or IJWMFTT.

Micha - I agree with what you wrote about credits for the band.  The press coverage was abysmal.  Write-ups from company people or ghost write-ups from managers, still don't cut it for me, even if they were somehow watching sessions.  I just take the fact info and merge it with what the actual band members have to say. And, separate the subjectivity out. 

Give me one of those prism film interviews or Al's from rock cellar in 2013 and that is where it is at.   

People who are not directly principals find a way to infuse a subjective point-of-view in their writings.  Dave Marks described it best during C50 - as the "bubble" they into which they became envelopped, when they worked together.  It is almost like that "language" that twins develop before they have real language skills, and "talk" to each other, shutting the rest of the world out, while in that "zone."   That survived many changes in management, over decades. 

But, we got Surf's Up in some BB form, in a way it became performed "live."   

[Emily]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

I disagree. I think the reason was the alienation between Brian and the rest of the group that had developed since Brian quit the road, both in human relations and artistically, and the fact that in the media coverage the other BBs were reduced to a little appendix to Brian. That production credit was to signify, "We're a group, not a king and his servants", and directed not so much at the public, but at the touring Beach Boys.


Surf's Up... I'm not happy with the arrangement the way it turned out for posterity either. In the first movement, the clinky-clanky percussion destroys the beauty of the melody, the harmonic elements are way too low, and it is still too fast IMHO. Too bad he didn't have the time to try another arrangement, and that we didn't get to hear the results of the January 1967 string overdub attempt. I like the horns arrangement though -  and that's mixed too low again in the TSS version. A real loss that it wasn't mastered in 1967 and never received the majestic soundscape of GOK or IJWMFTT.

I think your idea about the Smiley Smile production credits is also a good one, and generous. It's something that people don't often keep in mind that tensions probably stemmed back to the early days when Brian very often avoided going on the road, then making it official in '64. I think their situation was difficult: it was too much work for Brian Wilson, and he was in a broad sense the real creator of the music. He also evidently wanted a career that included working with other bands/musicians and was doing that on the side. So he was exhausted and felt a lot of pressure and started taking uppers and it sounds like sleeping too little and working too much for several years. So he was doing all he could. At the same time, the other Beach Boys felt that he was getting too much credit, because they were working hard too, and not seeing how hard he was working when they were away, they may have felt like he was slacking off at home while they were working their, um, back-ends off on the road. And they may have felt, "well if he's so tired maybe he should stop playing around with those other bands and just focus on the one: us!" So I think it's possible that he was at his wit's end, they were resentful, everyone was exhausted and short-fused, and perhaps the Smile -> Smiley Smile -> production credits was Brian Wilson trying to defuse the situation, even things out, and get some rest.

And I agree about Surf's Up. To me, it's the most beautiful, stirring song Brian Wilson has written, but I don't feel it ever got the right arrangement. The arrangements we've got either bury much of what's beautiful about the sound: part of its beauty is its starkness; or they are poorly recorded demo type things. What I would like best would be Brian solo with the piano, but well produced, but I can also imagine more complex arrangements that support the song rather than bury it.

[Emily]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

I disagree. I think the reason was the alienation between Brian and the rest of the group that had developed since Brian quit the road, both in human relations and artistically, and the fact that in the media coverage the other BBs were reduced to a little appendix to Brian. That production credit was to signify, "We're a group, not a king and his servants", and directed not so much at the public, but at the touring Beach Boys.


Surf's Up... I'm not happy with the arrangement the way it turned out for posterity either. In the first movement, the clinky-clanky percussion destroys the beauty of the melody, the harmonic elements are way too low, and it is still too fast IMHO. Too bad he didn't have the time to try another arrangement, and that we didn't get to hear the results of the January 1967 string overdub attempt. I like the horns arrangement though -  and that's mixed too low again in the TSS version. A real loss that it wasn't mastered in 1967 and never received the majestic soundscape of GOK or IJWMFTT.

Micha - I agree with what you wrote about credits for the band.  The press coverage was abysmal.  Write-ups from company people or ghost write-ups from managers, still don't cut it for me, even if they were somehow watching sessions.  I just take the fact info and merge it with what the actual band members have to say. And, separate the subjectivity out. 

Give me one of those prism film interviews or Al's from rock cellar in 2013 and that is where it is at.   

People who are not directly principals find a way to infuse a subjective point-of-view in their writings.  Dave Marks described it best during C50 - as the "bubble" they into which they became envelopped, when they worked together.  It is almost like that "language" that twins develop before they have real language skills, and "talk" to each other, shutting the rest of the world out, while in that "zone."   That survived many changes in management, over decades. 

But, we got Surf's Up in some BB form, in a way it became performed "live."   

The people in the bubble, by definition, have less objectivity. And frequently Brian Wilson was in a different bubble from the rest of the Beach Boys.

[Cam Mott]

Something else that was different was they owned their own label now, maybe that had something to do with it.  I have a feeling that it was a unilateral decision by the real Producer since the Boys seem to be confused by it too.

[filledeplage]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

I disagree. I think the reason was the alienation between Brian and the rest of the group that had developed since Brian quit the road, both in human relations and artistically, and the fact that in the media coverage the other BBs were reduced to a little appendix to Brian. That production credit was to signify, "We're a group, not a king and his servants", and directed not so much at the public, but at the touring Beach Boys.


Surf's Up... I'm not happy with the arrangement the way it turned out for posterity either. In the first movement, the clinky-clanky percussion destroys the beauty of the melody, the harmonic elements are way too low, and it is still too fast IMHO. Too bad he didn't have the time to try another arrangement, and that we didn't get to hear the results of the January 1967 string overdub attempt. I like the horns arrangement though -  and that's mixed too low again in the TSS version. A real loss that it wasn't mastered in 1967 and never received the majestic soundscape of GOK or IJWMFTT.

Micha - I agree with what you wrote about credits for the band.  The press coverage was abysmal.  Write-ups from company people or ghost write-ups from managers, still don't cut it for me, even if they were somehow watching sessions.  I just take the fact info and merge it with what the actual band members have to say. And, separate the subjectivity out. 

Give me one of those prism film interviews or Al's from rock cellar in 2013 and that is where it is at.   

People who are not directly principals find a way to infuse a subjective point-of-view in their writings.  Dave Marks described it best during C50 - as the "bubble" they into which they became envelopped, when they worked together.  It is almost like that "language" that twins develop before they have real language skills, and "talk" to each other, shutting the rest of the world out, while in that "zone."   That survived many changes in management, over decades. 

But, we got Surf's Up in some BB form, in a way it became performed "live."   

The people in the bubble, by definition, have less objectivity. And frequently Brian Wilson was in a different bubble from the rest of the Beach Boys.

The people in the bubble are in sync with one another.  And, if one is a music director, such as Carl was, they would hear an error to correct.
Have a listen to the Party sessions.  Brian is objective.

[Paul J B]

Emily...you raise a lot of valid points however I still differ on Pet Sounds being Brian's heart and soul masterpiece. The concept behind most all of the lyrics came from Brian did it not? The mood, atmosphere, feelings one is left with during and after listening to that album is Brian. That album, as a whole, nailed many of the emotions Brian felt and was going through at the time unlike anything else he ever did including Smile.

Mujan...for the record I agree Scorcesse has talent...that shot from the car into the nightclub in GF without a single cut is incredible. I just think he has a weird sadistic thing going on in his brain and I get really tired of Hollywood types cranking out gratuitous violence and then acting all pius about themselves. I love the film Braveheart, but it's pretty obvious Gibson is nuts and also has a weird sadistic nature. One of the few TV shows I watch and really like is Vikings on the History channel. That show is violent as hell but it's more of a historical view point than a let's have a really warped person doing a really warped thing to another human being just because we can kind of thing. I see a difference between a Viking sacrificing another tribal member, and Joe Pesci and Robert De Niro stabbing and shooting a guy in the trunk over and over again to the point where it's supposed to generate a laugh.

As we said, to each his own. Why am I hijacking my own thread?

That interview with Bruce you posted was a good find. The part about GV once again adds a lot of weight to the whole premise of this thread.

[Emily]

Something else that was different was they owned their own label now, maybe that had something to do with it.  I have a feeling that it was a unilateral decision by the real Producer since the Boys seem to be confused by it too.

Another good point. My guess is that the reason, like many, was multifaceted.

[Emily]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

I disagree. I think the reason was the alienation between Brian and the rest of the group that had developed since Brian quit the road, both in human relations and artistically, and the fact that in the media coverage the other BBs were reduced to a little appendix to Brian. That production credit was to signify, "We're a group, not a king and his servants", and directed not so much at the public, but at the touring Beach Boys.


Surf's Up... I'm not happy with the arrangement the way it turned out for posterity either. In the first movement, the clinky-clanky percussion destroys the beauty of the melody, the harmonic elements are way too low, and it is still too fast IMHO. Too bad he didn't have the time to try another arrangement, and that we didn't get to hear the results of the January 1967 string overdub attempt. I like the horns arrangement though -  and that's mixed too low again in the TSS version. A real loss that it wasn't mastered in 1967 and never received the majestic soundscape of GOK or IJWMFTT.

Micha - I agree with what you wrote about credits for the band.  The press coverage was abysmal.  Write-ups from company people or ghost write-ups from managers, still don't cut it for me, even if they were somehow watching sessions.  I just take the fact info and merge it with what the actual band members have to say. And, separate the subjectivity out.  

Give me one of those prism film interviews or Al's from rock cellar in 2013 and that is where it is at.    

People who are not directly principals find a way to infuse a subjective point-of-view in their writings.  Dave Marks described it best during C50 - as the "bubble" they into which they became envelopped, when they worked together.  It is almost like that "language" that twins develop before they have real language skills, and "talk" to each other, shutting the rest of the world out, while in that "zone."   That survived many changes in management, over decades.  

But, we got Surf's Up in some BB form, in a way it became performed "live."  

The people in the bubble, by definition, have less objectivity. And frequently Brian Wilson was in a different bubble from the rest of the Beach Boys.

The people in the bubble are in sync with one another.  And, if one is a music director, such as Carl was, they would hear an error to correct.
Have a listen to the Party sessions.  Brian is objective.

There really isn't an objective - it's not something that really exists, though it is on occasion very well approximated.. And yes, they might have been in sync, but often, when a family is dysfunctional, other people can see the systems of the dysfunction better than the people in the family. Thus, family therapy is helpful because the therapist can see what's going on from an outsider's perspective, a more objective perspective. The outsider is not married to a defensive tack or to old interpretations and wounds. The insider is the least objective reporter of a situation, other than the insider's own individual feelings.

[Emily]

The concept behind most all of the lyrics came from Brian did it not? The mood, atmosphere, feelings one is left with during and after listening to that album is Brian. That album, as a whole, nailed many of the emotions Brian felt and was going through at the time unlike anything else he ever did including Smile.

I totally agree with the above other than the final clause    sorry. I actually think a lot of the songs (not albums) from 67-80 are extremely personal and expressive of BW's head-space, more than anything on Pet Sounds or Smile. But neither of us will ever know exactly what was in his head, so I'm comfortable disagreeing.

[Chownow]

CenturyDeprived, your ideas about why Brian credited the band with production on Smiley Smile make sense to me; though your "drug haze" statement got me thinking. I wonder if, among the BB myths, this one needs re-examining. We know now, and have for a while, that Brian Wilson was experiencing real mental health issues. He did seemingly smoke a fair amount of pot around 67 and take upoers, I understand. He seems to have only taken LSD a few times. People are talking about his "addiction" in the Pamplin thread. I'm beginning to think his drug use and the effects of it are overblown.
Relevant in this thread is I see no reason to think he was in a "drug haze."

It's funny, I've been wondering the same thing. I've been reading up on Brian Wilson lately, including old and recent topics on this board, and find it curious how little mental illness comes into the discussion. If BW was hearing voices, thought his music was causing fires, people were bugging his house and a witch was putting thoughts in his mind via ESP, then I would suggest trying to establish logical reasons for abandoning certain tracks or altering production credits is fairly pointless. I would guess his thought processes were often irrational and difficult to understand. Maybe if he writes his memoirs he will explain what was going on and what he was thinking . That would be amazing, and would clarify alot. Again, given stigmas that still surround mental illness, I kind of doubt any memoir would be forthright. But given his recent willingness to be an advocate for mental health causes, maybe he will be open about his experiences.

[Micha]

It's funny, I've been wondering the same thing. I've been reading up on Brian Wilson lately, including old and recent topics on this board, and find it curious how little mental illness comes into the discussion. If BW was hearing voices, thought his music was causing fires, people were bugging his house and a witch was putting thoughts in his mind via ESP, then I would suggest trying to establish logical reasons for abandoning certain tracks or altering production credits is fairly pointless. I would guess his thought processes were often irrational and difficult to understand.

Pretty good point.

[Emily]

CenturyDeprived, your ideas about why Brian credited the band with production on Smiley Smile make sense to me; though your "drug haze" statement got me thinking. I wonder if, among the BB myths, this one needs re-examining. We know now, and have for a while, that Brian Wilson was experiencing real mental health issues. He did seemingly smoke a fair amount of pot around 67 and take upoers, I understand. He seems to have only taken LSD a few times. People are talking about his "addiction" in the Pamplin thread. I'm beginning to think his drug use and the effects of it are overblown.
Relevant in this thread is I see no reason to think he was in a "drug haze."

It's funny, I've been wondering the same thing. I've been reading up on Brian Wilson lately, including old and recent topics on this board, and find it curious how little mental illness comes into the discussion. If BW was hearing voices, thought his music was causing fires, people were bugging his house and a witch was putting thoughts in his mind via ESP, then I would suggest trying to establish logical reasons for abandoning certain tracks or altering production credits is fairly pointless. I would guess his thought processes were often irrational and difficult to understand. Maybe if he writes his memoirs he will explain what was going on and what he was thinking . That would be amazing, and would clarify alot. Again, given stigmas that still surround mental illness, I kind of doubt any memoir would be forthright. But given his recent willingness to be an advocate for mental health causes, maybe he will be open about his experiences.

Regarding the autobiography, I think it's possible that he doesn't completely understand his thinking from the time.

[filledeplage]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

I disagree. I think the reason was the alienation between Brian and the rest of the group that had developed since Brian quit the road, both in human relations and artistically, and the fact that in the media coverage the other BBs were reduced to a little appendix to Brian. That production credit was to signify, "We're a group, not a king and his servants", and directed not so much at the public, but at the touring Beach Boys.


Surf's Up... I'm not happy with the arrangement the way it turned out for posterity either. In the first movement, the clinky-clanky percussion destroys the beauty of the melody, the harmonic elements are way too low, and it is still too fast IMHO. Too bad he didn't have the time to try another arrangement, and that we didn't get to hear the results of the January 1967 string overdub attempt. I like the horns arrangement though -  and that's mixed too low again in the TSS version. A real loss that it wasn't mastered in 1967 and never received the majestic soundscape of GOK or IJWMFTT.

Micha - I agree with what you wrote about credits for the band.  The press coverage was abysmal.  Write-ups from company people or ghost write-ups from managers, still don't cut it for me, even if they were somehow watching sessions.  I just take the fact info and merge it with what the actual band members have to say. And, separate the subjectivity out.  

Give me one of those prism film interviews or Al's from rock cellar in 2013 and that is where it is at.    

People who are not directly principals find a way to infuse a subjective point-of-view in their writings.  Dave Marks described it best during C50 - as the "bubble" they into which they became envelopped, when they worked together.  It is almost like that "language" that twins develop before they have real language skills, and "talk" to each other, shutting the rest of the world out, while in that "zone."   That survived many changes in management, over decades.  

But, we got Surf's Up in some BB form, in a way it became performed "live."  

The people in the bubble, by definition, have less objectivity. And frequently Brian Wilson was in a different bubble from the rest of the Beach Boys.

The people in the bubble are in sync with one another.  And, if one is a music director, such as Carl was, they would hear an error to correct.
Have a listen to the Party sessions.  Brian is objective.

There really isn't an objective - it's not something that really exists, though it is on occasion very well approximated.. And yes, they might have been in sync, but often, when a family is dysfunctional, other people can see the systems of the dysfunction better than the people in the family. Thus, family therapy is helpful because the therapist can see what's going on from an outsider's perspective, a more objective perspective. The outsider is not married to a defensive tack or to old interpretations and wounds. The insider is the least objective reporter of a situation, other than the insider's own individual feelings.

Emily - "family therapy" was not on the radar until much later that might have been helpful for the Wilson's growing up in the post-War 50's and it seems with many schools of theoretical thought as to the best treatment.  

People were urged to speak to their rabbi, priest or minister in terms of family problems in that era, when seeking guidance or often, at the recommendation of their medical doctor.          

[Emily]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

I disagree. I think the reason was the alienation between Brian and the rest of the group that had developed since Brian quit the road, both in human relations and artistically, and the fact that in the media coverage the other BBs were reduced to a little appendix to Brian. That production credit was to signify, "We're a group, not a king and his servants", and directed not so much at the public, but at the touring Beach Boys.


Surf's Up... I'm not happy with the arrangement the way it turned out for posterity either. In the first movement, the clinky-clanky percussion destroys the beauty of the melody, the harmonic elements are way too low, and it is still too fast IMHO. Too bad he didn't have the time to try another arrangement, and that we didn't get to hear the results of the January 1967 string overdub attempt. I like the horns arrangement though -  and that's mixed too low again in the TSS version. A real loss that it wasn't mastered in 1967 and never received the majestic soundscape of GOK or IJWMFTT.

Micha - I agree with what you wrote about credits for the band.  The press coverage was abysmal.  Write-ups from company people or ghost write-ups from managers, still don't cut it for me, even if they were somehow watching sessions.  I just take the fact info and merge it with what the actual band members have to say. And, separate the subjectivity out.  

Give me one of those prism film interviews or Al's from rock cellar in 2013 and that is where it is at.    

People who are not directly principals find a way to infuse a subjective point-of-view in their writings.  Dave Marks described it best during C50 - as the "bubble" they into which they became envelopped, when they worked together.  It is almost like that "language" that twins develop before they have real language skills, and "talk" to each other, shutting the rest of the world out, while in that "zone."   That survived many changes in management, over decades.  

But, we got Surf's Up in some BB form, in a way it became performed "live."  

The people in the bubble, by definition, have less objectivity. And frequently Brian Wilson was in a different bubble from the rest of the Beach Boys.

The people in the bubble are in sync with one another.  And, if one is a music director, such as Carl was, they would hear an error to correct.
Have a listen to the Party sessions.  Brian is objective.

There really isn't an objective - it's not something that really exists, though it is on occasion very well approximated.. And yes, they might have been in sync, but often, when a family is dysfunctional, other people can see the systems of the dysfunction better than the people in the family. Thus, family therapy is helpful because the therapist can see what's going on from an outsider's perspective, a more objective perspective. The outsider is not married to a defensive tack or to old interpretations and wounds. The insider is the least objective reporter of a situation, other than the insider's own individual feelings.

Emily - "family therapy" was not on the radar until much later that might have been helpful for the Wilson's growing up in the post-War 50's and it seems with many schools of theoretical thought as to the best treatment.  

People were urged to speak to their rabbi, priest or minister in terms of family problems in that era, when seeking guidance or often, at the recommendation of their medical doctor.          

edited it because I lost my temper.

[guitarfool2002]

I mentioned the accounts of those "outside the bubble" several pages ago relating to what they saw regarding the family dynamic during Smile (and Pet Sounds), taking into account the tensions and various other issues they observed between Brian and the rest of the band. Often those outside the bubble, as in those bubbles that surround family, bands, or any groups connected in some way, can look in from the outside and see things which those inside the bubble cannot see, or refuse to see or accept because it's the "normal" into which they've been conditioned to both accept and exist.

So how does it get rectified when we actually do have those looking in from the outside and reporting what they saw getting challenged in hindsight by various people who have not much more than timelines and session dates for reference, when a family therapist if they had been brought in back in 1966 or 67 would be seeing the same behavior taking place? If a therapist saw an argument, it would be observed and noted as an argument. But if someone like David Anderle or Michael Vosse or Danny Hutton or Jules Seigel or anyone else says they saw the same argument...it's "family stuff" that we don't know enough about to form an opinion, or there is some loophole in the story to exploit and prse to the point of dismissing it? Or maybe the band was arguing about ordering sandwiches from Canters deli...stuff like that.

[filledeplage]

5-Doesnt understand why Brian chose to credit the Production of Smiley to the BBs. Says Brian was in control even during that time.

IMO... Either Brian was prepping to hand over the reigns to the other Boys in the near future (as he in actuality did) and thought this credit would be a step in that direction, or SS on purpose was an underproduced effort (an intentional attempt to make it sloppy and not very good) as a "gift" to the band in the form of a passive-aggressive swipe for lack of band support for the SMiLE tracks. Or perhaps the decision was a drug-hazed combination of both ideas.

I think it's very unlikely that neither of those ideas had an iota to do with the credit.

I disagree. I think the reason was the alienation between Brian and the rest of the group that had developed since Brian quit the road, both in human relations and artistically, and the fact that in the media coverage the other BBs were reduced to a little appendix to Brian. That production credit was to signify, "We're a group, not a king and his servants", and directed not so much at the public, but at the touring Beach Boys.


Surf's Up... I'm not happy with the arrangement the way it turned out for posterity either. In the first movement, the clinky-clanky percussion destroys the beauty of the melody, the harmonic elements are way too low, and it is still too fast IMHO. Too bad he didn't have the time to try another arrangement, and that we didn't get to hear the results of the January 1967 string overdub attempt. I like the horns arrangement though -  and that's mixed too low again in the TSS version. A real loss that it wasn't mastered in 1967 and never received the majestic soundscape of GOK or IJWMFTT.

Micha - I agree with what you wrote about credits for the band.  The press coverage was abysmal.  Write-ups from company people or ghost write-ups from managers, still don't cut it for me, even if they were somehow watching sessions.  I just take the fact info and merge it with what the actual band members have to say. And, separate the subjectivity out.  

Give me one of those prism film interviews or Al's from rock cellar in 2013 and that is where it is at.    

People who are not directly principals find a way to infuse a subjective point-of-view in their writings.  Dave Marks described it best during C50 - as the "bubble" they into which they became envelopped, when they worked together.  It is almost like that "language" that twins develop before they have real language skills, and "talk" to each other, shutting the rest of the world out, while in that "zone."   That survived many changes in management, over decades.  

But, we got Surf's Up in some BB form, in a way it became performed "live."  

The people in the bubble, by definition, have less objectivity. And frequently Brian Wilson was in a different bubble from the rest of the Beach Boys.

The people in the bubble are in sync with one another.  And, if one is a music director, such as Carl was, they would hear an error to correct.
Have a listen to the Party sessions.  Brian is objective.

There really isn't an objective - it's not something that really exists, though it is on occasion very well approximated.. And yes, they might have been in sync, but often, when a family is dysfunctional, other people can see the systems of the dysfunction better than the people in the family. Thus, family therapy is helpful because the therapist can see what's going on from an outsider's perspective, a more objective perspective. The outsider is not married to a defensive tack or to old interpretations and wounds. The insider is the least objective reporter of a situation, other than the insider's own individual feelings.

Emily - "family therapy" was not on the radar until much later that might have been helpful for the Wilson's growing up in the post-War 50's and it seems with many schools of theoretical thought as to the best treatment.  

People were urged to speak to their rabbi, priest or minister in terms of family problems in that era, when seeking guidance or often, at the recommendation of their medical doctor.          

OK. Did you understand my point or did you think I was suggesting that the Wilsons get family counseling? It's like with the Pamplin thread. Are you intentionally making a horizontal shift away from the point or ... what?

While there is something to be said for an outsider's observation, sometimes outsiders get it all wrong. Your suggestion of family therapy for "dysfunction" and there is no perfect family structure so all families experience some kind of dysfunction or another.  It is all a matter of degree.

And, I can liken it to the school psychologist coming into a class to observe a child, once, for a core evaluation for special education.  Often, they get it so wrong, after one-half hour of observation.  Who pays for that objective opinion?  The child being sent to special education or not being placed appropriately.  

The question as I have seen it, is whether those who have written so "objectively" had a monetary incentive to do so.      

[filledeplage]

I mentioned the accounts of those "outside the bubble" several pages ago relating to what they saw regarding the family dynamic during Smile (and Pet Sounds), taking into account the tensions and various other issues they observed between Brian and the rest of the band. Often those outside the bubble, as in those bubbles that surround family, bands, or any groups connected in some way, can look in from the outside and see things which those inside the bubble cannot see, or refuse to see or accept because it's the "normal" into which they've been conditioned to both accept and exist.

So how does it get rectified when we actually do have those looking in from the outside and reporting what they saw getting challenged in hindsight by various people who have not much more than timelines and session dates for reference, when a family therapist if they had been brought in back in 1966 or 67 would be seeing the same behavior taking place? If a therapist saw an argument, it would be observed and noted as an argument. But if someone like David Anderle or Michael Vosse or Danny Hutton or Jules Seigel or anyone else says they saw the same argument...it's "family stuff" that we don't know enough about to form an opinion, or there is some loophole in the story to exploit and prse to the point of dismissing it? Or maybe the band was arguing about ordering sandwiches from Canters deli...stuff like that.

GF - I cannot even imagine how those young guys could tolerate the pressure of what was on their plate.  Let alone Murry's aggravation.  It must have been hard for Brian not to have the band handy to bounce ideas around with for weeks on end when they were on tour.  He was isolated from them, from the time he came off the road.  

People can witness the same arguments and come away with different impressions and insiders like family can just "tune it out." They often have a great ability to filter out stuff and still get along well and be the best of friends but have figured out their own pecking order in the family and deal with it while the outside world might think they are lunatics.  

It is like a work situation or good group dynamic in a political campaign. You quickly assess "who can do what" and if you are the leader, maximize the best aspects of both talent and personality.  

There were no family therapists.  It was hardly a recognized area, and was an outgrowth of "marriage counseling" which was largely in the domain of religious organizations.  Just saying'.      

[Chocolate Shake Man]

While there is something to be said for an outsider's observation, sometimes outsiders get it all wrong.

As do insiders, which is why you don't completely trust or discount either outsiders or insiders purely on the basis that the source is one of those.

That said, it must be noted that even individuals have a wonderful capacity of lying to themselves about themselves. Therefore, in those cases, an outsiders' account has the capacity of being far more accurate than that of the individual.

[Emily]

While there is something to be said for an outsider's observation, sometimes outsiders get it all wrong. Your suggestion of family therapy for "dysfunction" and there is no perfect family structure so all families experience some kind of dysfunction or another.  It is all a matter of degree.

And, I can liken the a school psychologist coming into a class to observe a child for a core evaluation for special education.  Often, they get it so wrong, after one half hour of observation.  Who pays for that objective opinion?  The child being sent to special education or not being placed appropriately.  

The question as I have seen it, is whether those who have written so "objectively" had a monetary incentive to do so.      

OK. So you actually do misunderstand my point.
I highly doubt the interviewees in those articles were paid. If they were, I'm sure the payment wasn't contingent on what they said in the interviews.
As to the reporters, obviously Jules Seigel had a monetary incentive to report something different. He lost his assignment because he refused to alter the text to please those who would've paid.