AGD missing, the future of this forum

[B.E.]

Separately, I'm not necessarily comfortable with the assumption that the thread was deleted specifically or solely because it reflected "poorly on this board", as if it was covering up members "running off" Desper from the board. I honestly have no idea how the entire thread was deleted instead of simply locked. I do remember the post that re-posted Desper's original comments *sans* any political references, which proved to me more than anything that the damn post could have been made that way in the first place.

Well, I don't feel great about it either, but what else am I supposed to think? It had been sandboxed and presumably locked, at that point, deleting it only serves to keep people from reading it. Also (since it's been brought up again), I found the 'Desper Talks Early BBs Touring' thread to be in poor taste. I didn't say anything at the time or earlier in this thread because I believe Pretty Funky had good intentions, but look at it from Desper's point of view. To be blatantly censored (effectively being told what he's here for) after providing so much to the board and to have some of the same people who ganged up on him such as mathen_ arrogantly reply, "now that's a nice topic!!!"...I mean, come on! I realize how mild that seems out of context and with everything else deleted, but it was incredibly inappropriate IMO. Btw, Desper's initial post wasn't even inflammatory.

Let me also mention that I'm no stranger to overreaction or misinterpretation of one's motives in starting a thread. So believe it or not, I'm empathetic to the motives behind a post being mischaracterized. I started a thread a year or two back trying to delve into some comments Elliott Lott had made circa 1999 about Mike not wanting to appear on stage with Carl, and a couple of the usual pro-Mike suspects immediately jumped on me assuming I was just looking to start some sort of anti-Mike thread. As I recall, I acknowledged how it could easily appear or be interpreted that way (I think I even said so in my *initial* post), and went to great pains to *very specifically* explain that I truly was trying to get to the bottom of a murky piece of BB-related history. I didn't feign incredulity as if I didn't even understand how someone could *possibly* read something negative into my motives. After being lambasted by the usual small group of suspects, the thread kind of died down, and eventually Ray Lawlor posted basically confirming and elaborating on that very story, which was the *precise* thing I was looking for when I started the thread.

That's a shame when you ask an honest question and people misread you. That's actually a pet peeve of mine (I'm making a list for the thread here ) When people look past your actual question and answer the question they think you're really asking (they're so clever ). Anyway, I'll search for that thread later, I'm interested in reading (or perhaps re-reading) your question and Ray Lawlor's response.

[Pretty Funky]

Separately, I'm not necessarily comfortable with the assumption that the thread was deleted specifically or solely because it reflected "poorly on this board", as if it was covering up members "running off" Desper from the board. I honestly have no idea how the entire thread was deleted instead of simply locked. I do remember the post that re-posted Desper's original comments *sans* any political references, which proved to me more than anything that the damn post could have been made that way in the first place.

Well, I don't feel great about it either, but what else am I supposed to think? It had been sandboxed and presumably locked, at that point, deleting it only serves to keep people from reading it. Also (since it's been brought up again), I found the 'Desper Talks Early BBs Touring' thread to be in poor taste. I didn't say anything at the time or earlier in this thread because I believe Pretty Funky had good intentions, but look at it from Desper's point of view. To be blatantly censored (effectively being told what he's here for) after providing so much to the board and to have some of the same people who ganged up on him such as mathen_ arrogantly reply, "now that's a nice topic!!!"...I mean, come on! I realize how mild that seems out of context and with everything else deleted, but it was incredibly inappropriate IMO. Btw, Desper's initial post wasn't even inflammatory.

Without having the original thread to confirm a time line, I am 99% sure SD had already said he was going to 'take a break' before I did the follow up thread. I do know several posters suggested doing the same as we felt the actual topic was being lost under the negative political talk.

To me the topic was fine, however not being a US voter I did not think it appropriate to disagree with those of you that are.

[Seaside Woman]

I thought the way Doe harangued Carol Kaye was ridiculous (whether she had given incorrect info or not).

To the best of my recollection Carol called him out on the old Blue Board over something. I can't remember the exact nature of the disagreement but she threw up to him that she'd heard he was still living with his mother, in her basement.

She was a very easy target after that. The vitriol was unbelievable, how he could say some of the things he said about her, a living legend and him only a legend in his own mind.

Melinda also called him out, asking him exactly what his problem was, she was in the firing line after that, too.

[thorgil]

What's worse, AGD succeeded in giving Carol Kaye a bad name among the most, let's be kind again here, "gullible" in BB fandom. I remember threads, even here, where Carol was treated by people like she had run over their collective dog.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

I thought the way Doe harangued Carol Kaye was ridiculous (whether she had given incorrect info or not).

To the best of my recollection Carol called him out on the old Blue Board over something. I can't remember the exact nature of the disagreement but she threw up to him that she'd heard he was still living with his mother, in her basement.

She was a very easy target after that. The vitriol was unbelievable, how he could say some of the things he said about her, a living legend and him only a legend in his own mind.

Melinda also called him out, asking him exactly what his problem was, she was in the firing line after that, too.

Living with his mom, huh?  And in the basement!  Did she feed him too? What a psychological sad sack. No wonder he gets along so well with myKe luHv.

[kreen]

I'm not sure of your relevance here?  The instigators of this mess - who continue to stir it up in some bizarre, desperate attempt to validate their behavior, were asshats.  And posted in an idiotic matter, finding political context where none existed.  Mr. Desper was making an analogy based on crowd tone and crowd size at public events.  Period.

And EVEN if Desper had meant his post to be pro-Trump -- which he didn't -- you don't gang up on the Beach Boys' former sound engineer if you have the incredible opportunity to have him as a member on your Beach Boys discussion board. Here's a guy who WORKED with the BB when they made some of their most legendary records and you chase him off? He should have never been made to rewrite his original post. Very disrespectful.

[RangeRoverA1]

Bottom line: Everybody stands by what they say: 1) he was treated disrespectfully & as insider should get leeway or 2) nobody drove him away & it's his fault too. & that's that. No long posts would help to convince both sides. It's getting samey.

[guitarfool2002]

Repeating myself again - it should never have happened.

First, the post itself wasn't reason to react the way some reacted. My opinion. But what was done is done, let's try to weigh things out so it doesn't happen again. Choose the battles and the axes to grind. If it's off-topic, take it to the sandbox.

Second, and this is a hard point to convince someone of in terms of people who aren't as involved in the daily workings here yet still post very welcome content: A few people and their behaviors and comments are NOT representative of the entire community or even a majority of posters here.

Third: Keep the damn politics in the damn sandbox, or better yet refrain from bringing it up in on-topic posts that others might want to read for the on-topic content.

Fourth: Stephen Desper as others have said is one of the true valued members here, a member whose posts most readers welcome and might even come here to read as a priority when they see he's posted. If someone disagrees with something other than the music or on-topic discussion, whether it be politics or whatever other topic it is, would it be worth losing a poster who most people on this community want to have as a regular posting member?

I say no. If some political this-or-that rubs someone the wrong way, there are times to ignore it and let it slide. And if it's that big of a deal that it needs to be discussed, take it to the place set up for off-topic discussions like politics, in the sandbox.

I want to read posts from members like Stephen Desper because they bring a unique firsthand perspective to the things many of us discuss daily...i.e., the music. No way should what happened be allowed to happen again. It won't.

[RangeRoverA1]

Points taken. Would this thread be locked now? I don't think anybody will add anything new here, really.

[guitarfool2002]

Points taken. Would this thread be locked now? I don't think anybody will add anything new here, really.

Not yet. The thread was not about that until the last few pages.

[Pretty Funky]

Good news!

My thanks Stephen and everyone. I had not heard about this.

Does someone have a link to the list ? I can only find 2016 not the one for this year, and the link in Stephen's message doesn't seem to work.

Best

Mark

COMMENT:

Hello Mark,  The issue is on the newstand now. Not on-line yet.  See page 77.  ~swd

Welcome back SWD!

[RangeRoverA1]

Points taken. Would this thread be locked now? I don't think anybody will add anything new here, really.

Not yet. The thread was not about that until the last few pages.

OK. To bring it back to the OP, I think GoogaMooga asked very silly question. I never knew that this, Smiley Smile board was created solely with Agd in mind. Ah, maybe it was, I wasn't here from the get-go. But the notion is very dumb. If that poster gets banned for bannable reasons, what, the "future of this forum" is doomed? Ha! It must be joke & not funny at that.

[guitarfool2002]

Points taken. Would this thread be locked now? I don't think anybody will add anything new here, really.

Not yet. The thread was not about that until the last few pages.

OK. To bring it back to the OP, I think GoogaMooga asked very silly question. I never knew that this, Smiley Smile board was created solely with Agd in mind. Ah, maybe it was, I wasn't here from the get-go. But the notion is very dumb. If that poster gets banned for bannable reasons, what, the "future of this forum" is doomed? Ha! It must be joke & not funny at that.

It was absolutely, positively not created with Doe in mind, but that's not saying that may not have happened years later on other forums. 

[RangeRoverA1]

I can imagine. The devotion to that chap by many is insane.

[Don Malcolm]

Politics in the USA--very fraught. All political references on the board will likely need to be monitored closely for some time to come so that things don't get out of hand. This is not an easy job for the mods, as they have lives of their own.

Regardless of Stephen's intentions with his post, the thread should have gone to the Sandbox immediately, as I suggested at the time. That action was delayed in occurring, and a series of additional public posts pushed things to an unfortunate conclusion. Despite Latishaw's heavy-handed admonitions, there were a couple of troublesome things in the thread that would likely have been able to be blunted in impact and withstood if the thread had been moved more quickly IMO. Note I am not criticizing the mods for this--it is an incredibly hard job and they are to be commended for taking so many difficult actions, particularly recently--actions that have made the atmosphere of the board infinitely calmer.

I think (and wish and hope and pray) that I speak for everyone in saying that we all hope that bygones will be bygones and that Stephen will be here again with his incredible insights into music, recording technology, and the detailed history of what is arguably the band's most interesting period (1967-71). Whatever else has happened to them over the years, the BBs have been blessed with exceptional recording/engineering personnel, and Stephen is at the very top of that list.

[Jay]

That's the thing though. It was never a "political" thread. It was comparing the behind the scenes action between a 1970's concert and a rally. It was more a "logistical" point, than anything political. People just lost their sh*t because the name trump happened to be used.

And your first sentence is the main reason the thread was acrimonious, because even after all this postmortem now, you're still not seeing how people *did* see it as a political thread. For some, invoking Trump's name and some level of admiration for his rallies, given the content of those rallies, is more than political enough. It was for that *specific* reason that some people had a problem.

I think suggesting that people "lost their sh*t" just because the name appeared is a grossly unfair oversimplification.

Was the problem that people "can't handle" seeing Trump's name? Or seeing Trump touted in any way? I think the answer is no, because "handling" something means you can still take issue with it. Nevertheless, it's clear the person who couldn't "handle" people disagreeing was the person who apparently left the board.

I agree that dog piling on someone is unfortunate, even if done unknowingly and done with strong moral/ethical convictions. I honestly can't say how much of a "dog pile" it was because the thread is gone. But my recollection again is that an *extremely minimal* acknowledgement that the post was what it was, rather than total incredulity, would have neutralized the critics/dog pile.

Oh, I 100% see how people took it as political. That's my point. The original post from Desper wasn't meant to be political, but people took it that way. I though *you* specifically were trying to argue that it was political. Perhaps I misunderstood.

[GoogaMooga]

RangeRover has either misunderstood my OP or is reading something into it that isn't there. I made it clear that I was an infrequent poster, and later, that I missed out on all that AGD drama, yes, and the Desper thing too. I visit and read selectively, and as incredible as it may seem, I wasn't aware of AGD's objectionable behavior. Until now.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

It's ok googa. It was quite the sordid mess...I kinda wish in a way *I* had missed it lol

[southbay]

Repeating myself again - it should never have happened.

First, the post itself wasn't reason to react the way some reacted. My opinion. But what was done is done, let's try to weigh things out so it doesn't happen again. Choose the battles and the axes to grind. If it's off-topic, take it to the sandbox.

Second, and this is a hard point to convince someone of in terms of people who aren't as involved in the daily workings here yet still post very welcome content: A few people and their behaviors and comments are NOT representative of the entire community or even a majority of posters here.

Third: Keep the damn politics in the damn sandbox, or better yet refrain from bringing it up in on-topic posts that others might want to read for the on-topic content.

Fourth: Stephen Desper as others have said is one of the true valued members here, a member whose posts most readers welcome and might even come here to read as a priority when they see he's posted. If someone disagrees with something other than the music or on-topic discussion, whether it be politics or whatever other topic it is, would it be worth losing a poster who most people on this community want to have as a regular posting member?

I say no. If some political this-or-that rubs someone the wrong way, there are times to ignore it and let it slide. And if it's that big of a deal that it needs to be discussed, take it to the place set up for off-topic discussions like politics, in the sandbox.

I want to read posts from members like Stephen Desper because they bring a unique firsthand perspective to the things many of us discuss daily...i.e., the music. No way should what happened be allowed to happen again. It won't.

Nailed it. Can we move on now?

[Bicyclerider]

I thought the way Doe harangued Carol Kaye was ridiculous (whether she had given incorrect info or not).

To the best of my recollection Carol called him out on the old Blue Board over something. I can't remember the exact nature of the disagreement but she threw up to him that she'd heard he was still living with his mother, in her basement.

She was a very easy target after that. The vitriol was unbelievable, how he could say some of the things he said about her, a living legend and him only a legend in his own mind.

Melinda also called him out, asking him exactly what his problem was, she was in the firing line after that, too.

Living with his mom, huh?  And in the basement!  Did she feed him too? What a psychological sad sack. No wonder he gets along so well with myKe

This is sad that someone would hold someone's personal family and financial situation against them - thats online bullying to me.  It's pathetic all right and not for Andrew but for you.  As for Carol Kaye, yes AGD had some bad interactions with Kaye and so didn't hesitate to call her out on her misrepresentations of the truth and her nastiness to anyone who disagreed with those misrepresentations - but Hal Blaine and others had similar experiences with her by all accounts she is one ornery difficult person to deal with.  Just ask the producers of Love and Mercy.  Doesn't take away from her brilliant musicianship and contributions to countless pop music Classics, but sometimes musical icons aren't the best people (Phil Spector anyone?).

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I thought the way Doe harangued Carol Kaye was ridiculous (whether she had given incorrect info or not).

To the best of my recollection Carol called him out on the old Blue Board over something. I can't remember the exact nature of the disagreement but she threw up to him that she'd heard he was still living with his mother, in her basement.

She was a very easy target after that. The vitriol was unbelievable, how he could say some of the things he said about her, a living legend and him only a legend in his own mind.

Melinda also called him out, asking him exactly what his problem was, she was in the firing line after that, too.

Living with his mom, huh?   And in the basement!   Did she feed him too? What a psychological sad sack. No wonder he gets along so well with myKe

This is sad that someone would hold someone's personal family and financial situation against them - thats online bullying to me.  It's pathetic all right and not for Andrew but for you.  As for Carol Kaye, yes AGD had some bad interactions with Kaye and so didn't hesitate to call her out on her misrepresentations of the truth and her nastiness to anyone who disagreed with those misrepresentations - but Hal Blaine and others had similar experiences with her by all accounts she is one ornery difficult person to deal with.  Just ask the producers of Love and Mercy.  Doesn't take away from her brilliant musicianship and contributions to countless pop music Classics, but sometimes musical icons aren't the best people (Phil Spector anyone?).

Andrew has a history of doing the same thing,  including towards me. Once he realized I was no longer swallowing the bullshit he was spewing, he started telling people he knew the "real" reason why I lost my place. It's no secret, I had to go on medical leave and I ended up behind on my rent and got evicted.  Yet he was trying to imply it was something far more sinister.  So, Rider, no offense but I have to high five OSD right now. If anybody is an online bully, it's that lying sack of Doe.

[Seaside Woman]

I thought the way Doe harangued Carol Kaye was ridiculous (whether she had given incorrect info or not).

To the best of my recollection Carol called him out on the old Blue Board over something. I can't remember the exact nature of the disagreement but she threw up to him that she'd heard he was still living with his mother, in her basement.

She was a very easy target after that. The vitriol was unbelievable, how he could say some of the things he said about her, a living legend and him only a legend in his own mind.

Melinda also called him out, asking him exactly what his problem was, she was in the firing line after that, too.

Living with his mom, huh?  And in the basement!  Did she feed him too? What a psychological sad sack. No wonder he gets along so well with myKe

This is sad that someone would hold someone's personal family and financial situation against them - thats online bullying to me.  It's pathetic all right and not for Andrew but for you.  As for Carol Kaye, yes AGD had some bad interactions with Kaye and so didn't hesitate to call her out on her misrepresentations of the truth and her nastiness to anyone who disagreed with those misrepresentations - but Hal Blaine and others had similar experiences with her by all accounts she is one ornery difficult person to deal with.  Just ask the producers of Love and Mercy.  Doesn't take away from her brilliant musicianship and contributions to countless pop music Classics, but sometimes musical icons aren't the best people (Phil Spector anyone?).

Doe + Bullying = Oxymoron ...

[SMiLE Brian]

Doe was obsessed with his "enemies" on top of general bullying....

[Jay]

As much of a bully he could be, or was, something doesn't feel right to me about kicking a man when he's down.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I'd agree if it was anybody else