The Smiley Smile Message Board

From:

http://www.canada.com/cityguides/victoria/story.html?id=f22081d4-88bb-4c05-8a46-edcecbc92a8e&p=2

Mike mentions Al & Brian in this article...here's an excerpt:

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Legal strife has plagued the Beach Boys repeatedly. Earlier this year, Love and Jardine settled a five-year battle over the use of the band's name. Love sued Jardine in 2003, saying his former band-mate used the name to advertise concerts even though Love was the sole licensee.

Love says the two are friends today. "There was definitely a schism [between me and Jardine] that lasted a number of years," Love added. "But that's been overcome. The future is wide open."

And what about Brian Wilson? Might he ever rejoin his old bandmates on the concert stage?

"That would be great," Love said without hesitation. "We're not opposed to Brian being a part of it. But he's got his own band. He just came out with a solo album [That Lucky Old Sun]. He's been on the solo artist trail a while. We wish him well. And if it happens, it happens."

And then Love, perhaps smarting over past skirmishes, added: "The thing is, [Brian] was most successful when he collaborated in writing with his cousin Mike. That's me."

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You know, that's the thing with Mike that grates with so many people. He actually said something nice and generous about Brian's post-BB career, even mentioned he has a new album out.....but then can't resist saying that Brian was more successful when he they wrote songs together.


Yeah...but maybe Brian is *happier* now than when he was writing pop songs? Most truly creative writers end up having to either leave bands or undertake side projects just to stay sane.

From a recent article:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24299918-2902,00.html

"There isn't anybody I know -- my publicist, my wife, my managers, myself, my current group -- I don't think any of us think there is any hope for a Beach Boys reunion," Wilson says vehemently over the phone from his home in Los Angeles where his neighbours include Robbie Williams, Paul Stanley and Avril Lavigne.

I don't think too many people attach too much value anymore to statements that Brian makes in interviews...

If someone would offer the guys a nice sum to do a few reunion shows (not that that's likely to happen though), I'm sure they'll all be there.

Yeah, I guess the last two albums with at least a handful of Brian & Mike compositions (MIU Album and Keepin' The Summer Alive) really proved his point...

15 Big Ones, that's what you get from a Beach Boys reunion. 32 years later, it could be even worse. In terms of a reunion as a concert act only, I'd much rather see a well done DVD set of some never-seen-before live footage from the seventies and early eighties than these guys actually going on the road as The Beach boys again.

Try telling those going to the 100 plus Mike and Bruce shows a year since 1998 that the Beach Boys are getting back together. No change to the status quo IMO.

You could get 47 Big ones

Actually, if it's as good as "I'm Into Something Good"... why not?  :-D

'Proud Mary' would finally find a home....  ;D

And "Duke Of Earl"!

yep, Brian was all at sea without having Mike to help him! Ended up with rubbish like Pet Sounds.

And a Grammy award a few years ago.  ::)

I'm happy for them (Love, Jardine, Wilson). It seems that their problems (or many of them) have been overcome and they can respect each other again. What will happen? Nobody knows. Brian doesn't seem to be a Beach Boy anymore. Al probably would like and he also was the one who brought up the reunion-rumours back then. But as long as they are happy and "friends" (to quote Mike), it's great for them

I love and respect Mike, But Gosh Darn I think Sunflower was the only time that he was ever really about the music.

Maybe if Sunflower was a success upon release he might have changed.

I remember reading about 3 years ago in a tabloid when I wasn't a Beach Boys fan, that the surviving Beach Boys were offered 60 million to do a final tour..Not sure how much truth is in that. But I remember thinking how stupid they must be to turn it down.

What about some good-time remakes of The Little Old Lady From Passadena and Be True To Your School? And now that everything's settled, I'm sure that Al might want to come along to do another version of Help Me, Rhonda, 'cause when that one first came out he did the lead vocal, you know? As another highlight, Brian will have Mike sing I Am A Little Teapot, which Bruce Johnston will later remember with great enthusiasm as "one of those typical Brian moments" in the accompanying documentary film.

Mike was the collab for the stuff that sold, but Van Dyke, Asher, hell even Murray and now Scott Bennett (you can argue that one) co-wrote the high-end art that put Brian among the Gods.

He ought to realise there's more to entertainment than making real good bread.

I wouldn't be surprised if a reunion of some kind happened one of these days... They just *have* to do something again.

1)  Brian doesn't include himself in that list -  oooooh, conspiracy theory!
2)  What the f*** has a list of Brian's neighbours got to do with that statement?
3)  Hey -  I wonder what Robbie Williams, Paul Stanley and Avril Lavigne think about a Beach Boys re-union?

Uhh...

Yeah, but he's(has) a real cool head

:lol

What about Holland? Big Sur is a pretty good tune. One of the only songs that Mike wrote on his own that I actually like.

     Here's a few titles (off the top of my head) that "sold" but had no writing contributions from Mike:

"Little Deuce Coupe"

"Surfer Girl"

"Don't Worry Baby"

"In My Room"

...  shall I go on?  ;)  Brian wrote these by himself, or with another lyrics collaborator.

The last "successful" collaboration Mike had with Brian was Do It Again, forty years ago.  As the poster above pointed out, his subsequent collaborations on Sunflower, Holland, Keepin the Summer Alive and everything inbetwee were all stiffs in terms of commercial success.  So to somehow assume that if they collaborated again today they would be any more successful than the past forty years of collaborations, or more successful than Brian's solo efforts, is delusional.

The last top 20 hit Brian ever wrote was "Do It Again".  :)

C'mon, folks, this is silly. 'Good Vibrations' with lyrics written by VDP would still have been a #1 hit, and 'Heroes and Villains' with lyrics by Mike Love would have bombed anyway. Mike was around, did a good job when requested and that's what matters.

True, but what is bothersome about it is a) the endless insecure blowing smoke up his own ass that he does and b)the not-so-subtle manipulation he's trying to pull and c)his really rather annoying obsession with big hits.

I think with the right producer, and contributions from all of the guys, they could come up with a nice album. Obviously, they know it would be their last chance, and I think they would rise to the occasion - both vocally and songwriting-wise - and maybe have a little fun in the process.

From 1998 onwards, Brian has been very clear in every interview I've ever seen or read that he won't rejoin the BB's.

Mike has made the "generous" offer for years, "Brian, come and join us for just a few dates a year"

The best from Brian was in a BBC documentary a few years ago, where he was talkative and on form...and he was asked why he wouldn't join the BB's again...and he said, "You wanna know the answer? I can't stand being around Mike Love for more than five minutes".

Word. Whenever it comes on, I always think, "We could use some more stuff by that guy." Artistic, appealing, heartfelt: Big Sur am written by Bizarro Mike Love!

See, that's what happens when you can't hide your assholeness behind mental illness, people'll judge you. Maybe Mike should be still hanging on to that orange juice jug.  :)

"Heroes & Villains" did not bomb.  It was #12 on the US charts (& maybe #4 in UK?).

Well, I think Capitol really worked (manipulated) the charts on this one; I bet their promo guys yanked alot of favors from radio programmers to report the record top 10, top 20 reports; it probably cost them some bucks, too. It just didn't get that much airplay; not where I was, anyway (Northern California).

Of all the Beach Boys 60's singles, this one sounded the weirdest on radio. I can see why it wasn't a big hit. It's a great track, though, and the vocals are brilliant, but the chorus is weak.

Relative to "Good Vibrations", it bombed big time.  Partly because it took so long to release, and partly because the released cut wasn't as good as the "Cantina" version. 

Had the Capital lawsuit not happened, and Brian had released the "Cantina" version when he finished it in February, I think Heroes would have hit at least top 5, if not the top spot.

I wish it would happen, personally. It may not be a popular opinion, but to me it would provide closure.

And what's even better is that to most people, Brian was the most 'successful' when he did Pet Sounds and Smile, both of which had little to do with Mike-except maybe help Brian decide against releasing the latter.

You know what really annoys me about the meme that Brian can only be commercial with Mike (Bruce has said something along these lines too)...is that the argument doesn't even work on its own terms.  I agree that Brian does his best work with collaborators, and that those collaborators were a lot of why the '60s stuff translated to the teen market.  Fair enough.  Mike did excellent work here.  But Mike was not the only person responsible.  Roger Christian (in my view possibly the greatest Beach Boys lyricist of all time) did "Little Deuce Coupe," "Shut Down," and "Don't Worry Baby."  Gary Usher on "In My Room.  Tony Asher on "Wouldn't It Be Nice," of course.  And we don't know to what extent Mike actually contributed to all those extra songs he got his name on in the early '90s.  Jardine alleged in an interview around that time that Brian would come in with a completed song and Mike would insisted on making one or two changes.  Mike would probably say that's what made it commercial, but there's no real evidence of that.  What the evidence does show is that when Brian had A collaborator -- not just Mike -- that were able to translate his ideas to the marketplace, he did well there.

Well, no, you probably aren't going to find the names Christian, Usher, or Asher mentioned in an interview with Mike Love. Or the names Parks, Reily, or Almer.

That is because when Mike talks about his collaborations with Brian, he is responding to a question from the interviewer about any future songwriting collaborations betweeen MIKE and Brian. So, naturally, Mike will talk about his resume with Brian, not the other collaborators. I don't think Mike should be obligated to go out of his way to recognize Brian's other collaborators. And, when Mike talks about himself having the most "successful"  collaborations, I get the impression he is talking quantity, not quality. Quality is very subjective, even for Mike Love. But, the record shows that Brian has more collaborations with Mike than anyone else. That's a fact. And, probably more quality ones. But, again, that's a matter of opinion.

Yeah, February would be better than July. But... the Cantina version has no chorus! What would hook people into the song, forced laughs in a LA studio? Well, we'll never know.

All Mike's been saying is "Brian was most successful when he collaborated in writing with me." I won't get into the math/facts angle, but can't the guy be proud of what he achieved, even if it was for five meager years in the sixties?

"Oh, but what he REALLY means is that Brian can't succeed without him"

Well, whenever he says that out loud, I'll judge accordingly. That's not what he's saying here, or ever did (?).

Everyone is way past their prime. Maybe I'd dig it for sentimental reasons. For musical reasons, I wish they'd release archival material.

Their last chance came and went back in the mid-90's.  They decided to go with a country album of covers of their own songs.  I think it is pretty delusional to think at this point they could put anything together that is noteworthy.  I'm quite content at just listening to the music they've already created rather then shudder at another album on par with Summer In Paradise.  *shudder*

Brian and Mike will never have another hit, even if they write a song a day for the next 20 years. Some of them would be well-loved by Beach Boys fans, but they'd never hit the charts. Brian and Van Dyke might, just because Van Dyke is still hip, and in that sense is the most commercial former Brian collaborator there is.

The only way an album could work would be if Brian came up with a bunch of songs with his band (similar to what he was doing prior to TLOS), cut the tracks and brought the guys in to sing.  That's the only way...Mike may be right that Brian had the most success while collaberating with him, but it should also be noted that the Beach Boys were the most successful when Brian was calling the shots. 

The only two band members with songwriting skill even remotely approaching Brian's are sadly dead.  Brian's band seems to bring out the best in Brian creatively, so any project would have to involve them.  Bring the boys in to sing Brian's songs, with Brian's band doing the backing tracks, and you may have something.  Otherwise, I just can't see it working. 

Van Dyke Parks is commercial? :o

Hip and commercial aren't the same thing.

A-fucking-men. (Although I don't know if I'd personally even dig it for sentimental reasons, two of the key guys being dead.)

I'm sure if Brian decides to write a song about high school girls, hot rods and surfing, Mike will get the call!

Some of your post I completely agree with, other parts....

First, yes, have Brian's band do the backing tracks and have the guys come in to do the vocals. Sure. Absolutely. That's how Brian always worked best. From the Wrecking Crew to his band now. That's been Brian's best formula for success. And I think Mike, Al, and Bruce could do the tracks justice - vocally. As I mentioned above, they would know what's at stake; they would "buckle down". Don't judge their studio voices by their "coasting" live voices. And with technology....

Where I don't agree is that Mike, Al, Bruce, and maybe David wouldn't be able to contribute some quality material. Yes, Dennis and Carl were good songwriters, and can't be replaced. But all you're asking is for one song from each. Just one. Those guys HAVE TO HAVE ONE SONG with merit! I have at least that much faith in them.

It hurts me to say this but the stumbling block would be Mike Love. Mike would demand too much, and he would end up alienating a lot of people, or, the worst case scenario would be Brian/Melinda taking their ball and going home. Mike would wanna be the Executive Producer, the chief or sole lyricist, and he might want veto power over the final track selection for the album. Mike hasn't been plugging away for the last 47 years as this undying Beach Boy to surrender the power he has acquired. I can see "creative differences", yes....

Do you mean like "Desert Drive" and "Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl"?

They would not have been better with mike love whining them.

I pretty much agree with you Sherriff, that's a pretty good representation of what it would be like...and I agree that Mike, Al, David and Bruce could, if pushed hard enough, contribute at least one quality tune. It's not like they haven't done it before...If I may digress a little bit and state my opinion on the reunion thing...I will...and I know the Sherriff and I as well as others will disagree, but I have to say it...I think Brian's best off as a solo artist now. As much as I love the harmonies that Mike, Al, Bruce, David and Brian could create, as well as the corporate term

I'm pretty certain that Brian contributed a good, quality, and sufficient amount to every song on TLOS with Scott Bennett. I honestly don't think there collaboration was one of those where the collaborator has most of the great ideas and Brian just goes along with it an contributes 10%. And look at the results, lots of quality songs.As far as the sessions went...there is, sigh, a chance that Brian didn't contribute as much as the session footage would've indicated. If Andrew said that the TLOS footage was staged, I know he's telling the truth...but the thing is there's a small part of me that still believes that Brian WAS in control and WAS doing a damn good job in the production role, even if it wasn't on par with his older work...But the vocals on the record are what convince me that Brian was into the sessions. Listen to them, there's not many gritty moments, not much straining, and they all have a fairly clean quality to them. Brian must've been enthused on certain songs, that's for sure. As much as I hate bringing up this anecdote, I will: A friend of mine heard TLOS and hasn't followed Brian's solo career at all, and you know what she said? "He sounds a little bit like he used to, good singing..." I must say it's been a long, LONG time sicne I've been positive on an album of new Brian material. LONG TIME. But I must say it, I love TLOS and, even if the studio footage is faked I like the product...

And I don't think a BB reunion would produce a good work, it would just produce friction...and that's probably not best for Brian...

But heck, that's just my two cents...

No...I mean high school girls, hot rods and surfing, in that context. Mikes the one who bought up 'most successful' and I am implying that Brian has moved on from that, and so has just about everyone else.

I agree that Mike's need for power would be a problem...as for the writing, I guess I just don't have as much faith in the other guys' songwriting abilities as you do.  Bruce wrote a few decent tunes back in the day, but that was almost 40 years ago.  Mike may be able to come up with something if he co-wrote with Brian, but that may raise difficulties in itself, as you pointed out.  And Al can't even seem to get a solo record together (not like he hasn't had the time).  I don't know much about David's recent creative output, so maybe he could be of some help. 

Like Habib said though, at the end of the day, I think Brian is better off solo.  He has a supportive band who have been a big part of his creative re-birth.  They can replicate the harmonies that Brian is known for almost as well as the Beach Boys.  Brian doesn't have any incentive to get back with the Beach Boys.

Sorry, I don't have the magazine to hand, so this is probably a pointless post but in response to the other topic about BW's comments on a BB reunion I wanted to add that in the new Mojo interview, BW comments that he misses the Beach Boys and sighs that although his new band are great, they're not the Beach Boys. Of course this doesn't make the prospect of a BB reunion any more likely but it's interesting to read that Wilson misses his old band.

In the same interview Bennett also goes into more details about the writing behind MAD: That the opening piano riff to the song was something he (Bennett) had kicking around, that Brian suggested they do in a different key and rhythm that totally transformed the riff and surprised bennett. He also describes the point where they were trying to find the right chord for the fade to grey bit and Brian plucked this weird chord change out of the air that totally amazed Bennett "the money chord" (although I think this bit has already been mentioned).

Anyway it's a nice piece by Sylvie Simmons. When I get my hands on it again later I'll see if there are any other details from it that are worth paraphrasing.

Really?! Very interesting...

Sounds like a good interview, Sylvie is a Brian enthusiast of course so she might know how to make sure he's talkative.

Brian missing the BB's. I wonder if he means missing them personally and not musically? It must have, at times, been great making records with your brothers, cousin and best friend.

As for MAD, doesn't surprise me...Brian has always had a knack of picking a chord that nobody else would have thought of...and when you hear it you realise it works. But it's good to know that he still has that talent and used it on TLOS.

Like Al, with his recordings of "Honkin' Down The Highway", "Help Me Rhonda", "PT Cruiser", and that "Sloop John B"/"Rhinestone Cowboy" sound-a-like. Yeah, he's moved on....

I know I'm never going to win the debate, not that there is a debate. It's just good discussion on a Beach Boys' message board. But....

We all agree that you can't put much faith in Brian's interviews. And I know if you're keeping score, he probably said that he doesn't want to work with the Beach Boys again more than the other way around. But, there's something about Brian, in my opinion, that makes me believe that he would enjoy working with the Mike, Al, Bruce, and David, being a Beach Boy again, hanging out with the guys, guys his own age, shooting the sh--, really healing, with Brian producing a few tracks...

[/quote]
Like Al, with his recordings of "Honkin' Down The Highway", "Help Me Rhonda", "PT Cruiser", and that "Sloop John B"/"Rhinestone Cowboy" sound-a-like. Yeah, he's moved on....
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Ouch..are you Mike Love's hat salesman??  :lol  Your projecting your anger onto Al here, I know he's short and all but wasn't the discussion about Mike and Brian and whether they have moved on or not from early 60s music in writing.  Brian's music now I think is reflective of his whole career, sometimes you get remants of the early 60's stuff, sometimes later 60's remants, and sometimes 70's and 80's. Nothing wrong with that.   However, Mike seems to want only the early 60s image of himself portrayed as some sort of Dr. Love of Surfing, Cars, and girls fame. From what I have heard of Mike's new album, he has blended some of his 70s stuff easy style in there too besides his "Chuck Berry"mode. Although one can certainly judge Summer of Love as a progressive piece of music no doubt. (Sorry had to get that in there, I watched the Baywatch video on youtube the other day and my body still hurts from cringing and laughing-the look on Brian's face is priceless).  Every time you move on again in life, you always take pieces of where you have been, its just natural. No reason to lash out at Al here who has done the same thing.   
As for Mike and Brian writing together, please ,the last time they had a co write hit was 76? (It's Ok) and before that (Do It Again)  Just not likely now, even some sort of flash in the pan retro piece.  Neither one of them could sing a hit because their voices are not appealing (ok shot) to a main stream audience. Al would have to sing it.

Pointing out that Al is desperately hanging on to the good ol' days doesn't make Mike any less pathetic. It just makes Al more pathetic. Al's album tracks that I've heard, including all the samples and several complete songs, are really, really lame. Basically his Imagination, outdated "modern" production of decades-old sounding songs. And no, Brian isn't really all that different in that, either; he's just a more interesting songwriter and has more recently avoided the production cheese.

That whole "money chord" bit is in the DVD, I believe. (I think it's an Fmaj7 or F#maj7.) But Scott notes that it isn't the "stock" chord you'd place. Certainly Brian has had a gift for little unexpected things like that.

No, I was responding to The Other Anonymous's incorrect statement that "just about everyone else" has moved on. I just pointed out that Al has not.

And neither has Brian. TLOS is just another Beach Boys' album, without the Beach Boys' vocals. Actually, all of Brian's "solo" albums have been Beach Boys' albums. Brian has broken no new ground with TLOS. If you take away Scott Bennett's songwriting, Scott Bennett's production, Scott Bennett's lyrics, the title track which is a cover, Van Dyke Parks's narrative, Paul Merten's orchestration, and Darian & Jeff's contributions, you have a Brian Wilson "solo" album of Beach Boys' songs! Check out the thread a few pages back, the "TLOS nods to other songs". The "nods" are to songs that Brian has previously written. That thread is very revealing.   

I'm sure that if Brian could have at least Carl back (and Dennis, too, would be all the better), with Mike and Al and Bruce, and they all GAVE HIM COMPLETE AND FULL CONTROL, he'd readily record another album with them.  Unfortunately, THAT can't happen.  I'm sure he misses the Glory Days like mad.

Just to inscribe my 2 cents as long as Brian's wife and management are around, a reunion is never going to happen.

I just find it funny that Mike thinks it can be the good old days all over again if he works with Brian. That Brian he use to work with has been gone for a long time. Those days are gone and there is enough people to make it stop from ever happening.

I agree, that is a major stumbling block. No, that is THE major stumbling block.

There are two things that might intice Melinda, however. First, a Beach Boys' reunion would probably include the new album, a reunion concert, and the obligatory "making of the album/getting back together/reunion concert" DVD. That translates into $$$$$$$$$

Second, not that she cares, but Melinda might like to go down in the history books as the one who was responsible for reuniting Brian with the group. At this point, I don't think it is a priority. But, she hasn't spoken for awhile, so I don't know what she's thinking. We all know that in Brian Wilson's world, anything is possible. So it wouldn't surprise me to read an interview with Brian where he announces that his next project will be a Beach Boys' album, about a group of guys who travel to this amusement park and meet these girls.... :police:   

Yes, I agree. And that can be great incentive.

Anyway, what I really wanted to post is that there are now three threads going on which are discussing the same thing. It's hard to separate them. Can they be combined? Mr. Moderator?

I'm not so sure Melinda has had that much say in the whole thing.  After all, they married back in the mid-90's; shortly after he was collaborating with Mike again and there was talk of a new Beach Boys album.  Unfortunately that fell apart but Melinda didn't appear to have any qualms with Brian joining the group for a country album. 

And honestly, without Carl's voice it won't sound the same; it's like trying to form a puzzle with notable pieces missing.  I'm content with just letting things be.

I was going to say the same, Brian worked with the Boys in the studio and in concert for a couple of years *after* he married Melinda.

I am fully aware that in interviews, Brian isn't reliable. But I don't recall a single interview in the last 10 years where Brian said he might consider a BB reunion. He's bumped into Mike a few times since then, and consistently says he can talk to Mike for a few minutes but after that Mike's ego ruins things.

In a way its a shame they can't get together for one last concert. As for an album, I suppose if they took a few tracks from Mike's still unreleased recent attempt (which by most accounts was pretty good) they could cobble together some Brian and Al tracks with help from Bruce and make a decent collection of songs...but it wouldn't be great.

My memory is a little shaky on this, so if anyone can refresh it....Was it at the "reunion" on the Capitol Records rooftop where Brian mentioned to Mike that he (Brian) wrote some songs that he wanted Mike to hear. Or something like that. When I read things like that, or when Brian says things like that (out of range from his handlers), it makes me wonder...

Thats a good point Surfer Girl, I like it alot! This idea of Brian in Mike's mind is different from the real Brian now. Are their glimpses of the old Brian, of course but things have certainly changed.

I think when people bring up pathetic nostalgia, they're talking about songs with lyrics about cars, young girls, and surfing. TLOS has none of that. Even Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl is really an ode to a song. It's not about 66-year-old Brian getting on a surf board so he can impress a "honey." It's about "I remember when I was young and I wrote this song, and it led to all these other songs."
And none of the TLOS songs are about cruising around trying to pick up girls or hanging out at a teenage gathering place or oogling an 18-year-old. Those are Mike Love's specialties. Those are the subjects he continued to choose in the 80s and 90s. Those are the subjects of the 60s commercial hits Love is referring to. TLOS is about California, yes. But it's about a California that might well be observed by a 66-year-old looking back with rose-colored glasses, or with regret that he didn't accomplish more. It's much more introspective than Mike's stuff. The old BBs did do introspective songs, but Mike wasn't usually the lyricist (yes, there are exceptions).
When Brian says "I miss my band," I think he means he misses HIS band. He misses being in charge of those young guys who listened to him and sang and played what he wanted them to play. He misses being able to produce a whole album. He misses those old days.  I don't think he necessarily means that he wants to get together and write with Mike Love in 2008.

Misses HIS band. Misses being in charge. Misses guys who sang and played what he wanted them to play. Misses being able to produce a whole album.

Very interesting, Amy. I find them to be very revealing and relevant comments.

Ok. Fantasy land, here we go.

First, a whole new album with Brian at the helm? There are some real clunkers in TLOS that could EASILY be replaced by Mike and Al's compositions fom MLNW and PFC. Unfair competition because Mike and Al have beemn stockpiling those for years or decades while Brian apparently wrote the TLOS bunch in the last two, but that's how it is.

Now, something that passed through my mind. A project like this would be a real fine nest for tracks like "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again" and "I've Got a Friend" (what about David's lead with some nice Beach Boys block harmonies?).

Ok, I'm done. Bye, fantasy land. :)

I kind of doubt that he secretly wants to work with Mike. First of all, he's not always completely controlled by his handlers. Journalists who talk about interviewing him don't usually mention that there's anyone else in the room (or the deli). And brian has also done TV interviews (like Charlie Rose) where he could easily blurt something out about wanting to work with Mike if he wanted to. Also, Mike said at one point that he brought up the possibility of working with Mike, and Brian ended up bringing him finished songs to put lyrics to, and Mike said, "No, I thought we could sit down together and write, like the old days." Well, that's not how Brian works anymore. So it sounds like Mike is the one who put an end to that one.

To me, you have Mike Love, who hasn't even been able to get his album out and is traveling around singing old hits. Then you have Brian, who just put out a great solo album and continues to collaborate with people and create. Sounds to me like Mike needs Brian more than the other way around. Musically, I can't imagine it being very satisfying for the fans, either.

Well, why not?
I don't think the other surviving members have really proven that they are capable of producing a decent album without him. And his work with them was not that hot--it's better without them, for whatever reason(Brian's ego? Their ego? Both possibilities? Doesn't matter.)

They're both rich.

Mike needs Brian more than the other way around, though to be fair, I doubt if it's all dollar signs he's seeing. He is a nostalgic guy, and he probably does genuinely want to get over the hump and go back to the way he remembers it being. Problem is, their personalities and egos have always clashed , and if they were to get together, the same thing would happen again.
Let the Beach Boys-with-Brian go, I say. Nothing lasts forever.

Don't twist my words, SJS. I'm not under the illusion that Brian did _everything_ on TLOS, but I don't think he sat there like a lump either. I think his ideas and actions are all over TLOS. I think his singing shows that he was engaged, and I think the music is very much his work. Yes, he had help, and he's probably very aware that he can't take control of an entire project the way he once did, but I think he was more involved in this than some people seem to believe. However, his current band provides an atmosphere where he doesn't have to compete with anyone else's ego or deal with old battles from the past. With a BBs reunion, he would probably relinquish some control, not because he chose to, but because his confidence might take a beating.

Maybe Mike is the ultimate Brianista.  :-D

You may be onto something!   :-D  Mike seems to think that Brian will somehow transform into pre-Smile Brian (or maybe pre-1965 Brian is more accurate) as soon as they start collaborating. Like they're going to make a new "I Get Around," with Brian firmly at the controls, and it will go to number one, and then they'll tour together and get into all kinds of mischief and make lots of money.

And then Mike can say, "You see? My cousin Brian was there all along, but it took me, Mike Love--Brian Wilson's cousin-- to pull him out of his shell. As a follow-up, we'll be doing a song called Kokomo 2, which is just like Kokomo except not. It'll have music by Brian Wilson and lyrics by Mike Love. I'm Mike Love, by the way."

Hey, for another "I Get Around" I'll tie Murry's corpse to a fake sound board!  :-D

A pre-Smile Brian (like Today, SD & SN, and Pet Sounds?). A new "I Get Around" (a No. 1 single, one of he greatest songs of all-time). Brian firmly at the controls (isn't he that now?). It will go to number one ("I hope it sells" - Brian Wilson 9/08). Make lots of money (that would get his wife off his back).

Gee, that sounds pretty good. Sign up Brian for that deal! Amy, you're starting to come around now.... :police:

He doesn't have to, and doesn't want to be part of a reunion. More power to him. But this kind of respect for his old band is really welcome.

Yep.

Not to mention #5 in Canada.  :D

Not bad, considering that NONE of their songs reached #1 here.

I really don't want a BBs reunion. It'll be the 70s all over again with Brian sitting in the back corner of the stage and being trot out front like a circus bear. Do we really want more of this?  Skip straight to 4:54. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIgyeJQ6peA&feature=related     

Not much different than what happens a lot of times,now.

Sheriff J S wrote

No, I was responding to The Other Anonymous's incorrect statement that "just about everyone else" has moved on. I just pointed out that Al has not.

 By "just about everyone else", I am referring to the labels, critics and fans that made the Beach Boys the most successful during that early 60s period.

Al has his moments still yes, as does Mike, Brian, Jeff, Adrian and others who have done solo albums.

Not to my taste in 2008. Yours may vary.

I was wondering what happened to the "Mike comments on his relations with Al & Brian" thread...I thought it had been deleted, but now I see they were combined!  :-D

If all this happened....

1. Mike suddenly believes that a BBs setlist of the early 70s would be more commercial and hip in 2008
2. Brian's backing band is used
3. Brian writes most of the music
4. Brian produces and arranges with a little help from his band
5. Blondie, Ricky, Al and Dave Marks all join and contribute songs
6. Bruce quits (just kidding/who cares?)

....the Beach Boys would be red hot!!

Really, it should have happened 10 or even 20 years earlier, because what might have seemed occasionally strange and creepy even by the mid-eighties might now just be downright laughable. If I remember correctly, Mike is by now 67 or 68 years old. Sure, transcendental meditation has kept the guy pretty young, but probably not young enough to do it again in a convincing and not downright embarrassing way.

Now BW probably really misses his brothers and reuniting with Bruce Johnston will most likely not bring them back.

....the Beach Boys would be red hot!!

Can I suggest beige?

1. Mike & Bruce's setlists compared to Brian's have been very similar over the last few years
2. This would be a problem, a major problem
3. Isn't that what everybody (including Mike) wants?
4. Is workable, but a mutually agreeable co-producer is necessary
5. Blondie and Ricky aren't necessary, Al & David are essential
6. Yes, Bruce is also essential; you need his best song from the last 16 years

I wish I was an executive at a record company. I would make it my number one priority to pull this off. And then, when it all blows up, I'll be out on the streets! :police:

If there ever was a reunion, I'd rather have Mike not be involved. Have Carl's corpse take Mike's spot on stage. :lol  And Blondie and Ricky need to be part of it. And Ed Carter, Bobby Figueroa, Kowalski, Dragon Bros., Munoz, etc.

Can't have the Beach Boys without Mike.

Unfortunately.

Nothing will ever happen unless the tough managment agrees.

Hey Sheriff, what do you mean by Bruce's best song of the last 16 years? ???

Guess what, the handlers back then said the same that they say today:
"Hey, would you rather have Brian sitting on his ass all day long staring at the wall?"
"But the new album is great, what more could you ask for?"

Some things never change. Brian's actually comfortable not having to make decisions or acting like an adult. What bugs him are those who believe he's still got an ace up his sleeve that will be presented to the world if only he could do what he really wants etc. He doesn't want do do anything. Let's leave him alone and listen to his records.

Well, I'm basing the success of a future Beach Boys' album on the contributions of all the members. I would like to see Mike, Al, David, and Bruce each contribute one song - the rest being Brian's and one or two covers. I figured over the last 16 years (since the release of SIP), Bruce has written at least a couple of decent songs. Maybe even one great one. I want THAT song on the album!

I know they're old, I know they've failed in the late 70's, 80's and 90's, and I know they haven't done anything "great" in a long, long time. And, I know I appear naive. But I still have faith, that given one last chance, and hopefully learning from their past mistakes, that they could rise to the occasion and pull off something worthwhile. But, I can't stress enough how important the co-producer would be in the process.

Allow me to play the Devil's Advocate.


I'm no Mike Lover, by any stretch. But...

what if someone like Jan Berry took the Mike role in the Beach Boys? I would have to think having someone other than a family member in that role as co-conspirator would have meant less stress and anguish for brian. Hell, (and this is where I expect to have my ass jumped) Jan was far more talented than Mike. Jan  was just as conservative as Mike (see "The Universal Coward") , but Jan, I think would have greatly appreciated what someone like VDP would have brought to the table.

I'd like to see Mike do some more work without Brian. Let's see if he can write lyrics for someone else's music. He hasn't written anything decent since the 70s, so let him prove he can do it. Plus, he's always talking about reuniting with Brian, as if he's the only person he can work with. I know Mike wants to work with Brian because of their history together, but I don't have much faith that it would be particularly good. For the record, I'm against a reunion for this reason and because I just feel like it wouldn't be pleasant for Brian, at least. If Mike really wants Brian (and management) to come around to the idea, though, he's going to have to step up and be gracious. Stop saying passive aggressive things about Brian and Dennis. Start listening to Brian's solo stuff and if you like it, speak up. He's got to turn on the charm. Who would want to work with someone who looks like a jerk half the time? I wouldn't.

Mike made some good contributions working with others:

"Don't Go Near The Water" w/ Al
"All This Is That" w/ Al & Carl
"We Got Love" w/ Blondie & Ricky
"Only With You" w/ Dennis
"Pacific Ocean Blue" w/ Dennis
"Getcha Back" w/ Terry Melcher
"Rock And Roll To The Rescue" w/ Terry Melcher
"Kokomo" w/ John Philips and Terry Melcher
"Strange Things Happen" w/ Terry Melcher
"Lahaina Aloha" w/ Terry Melcher 

I think the only interest would be in some form of a reality TV/ album tie-in deal and I don't want that.

Think Spinal Tap meets Gene Simmons Family Jewels meets The Osbournes meets Metillica's Some Kind of Monster doco! Think a washed up band that does not realise it yet everyone else does.
A reality show mixing band members, their wifes and managers. Throw in VD Parks to help with lyrics, Jack Riley to manage and Stan Love to assist. In other words a train-wreck but great tv.

The Beach Boys displayed to the new audience some think is out there somewhere just waiting. Please no.


Here's my post for my thoughts of a reunion from January this year.

You want a reunion? Have a lock-in at Al's Big Sur studio with a camera crew for a warts-and-all no holds barred, clear the air show-down. In between plenty of memories of the good times and bad. Lots of instruments close at hand for whatever happens. At 5pm its down to the beach around the campfire with guitars, families, beer and hotdogs. Film it all.
July 4th concert at the Hollywood Bowl. One night only. Lots of hits with some Big Sur highlights/ lowlights on the big screen behind in between songs. A few guest singers to ease onstage tension.

All realeased as DVD for Christmas market. One disc of concert. The other Big Sur get-together. Profits to same charity as concert.

Aint gonna happen. Don't care either way.


Still stand by it but now see it of interest to a true fan only. As Sheriff said, Bruce plus the others must have some songs they could contribute. Album? don't know but to see them putting new songs together for a one-off show would be great. About the only good thing from the Star and Stripes DVD was seeing the band practising new arrangements, recording them then mixing.

I could go for more of that.

Okay, I don't know some of those and how good they are. Any in the last 20 years?

Sounds like the Beatles' Get Back project.  I guess if we get an Abbey Road further down the line from a reformed Beach Boys it might be worth suffering through the "live" project.

Cue the "When are those kids going home??" theme song!

since brian said that he didn't want to know anything about smile and that it was devil music for so long, and then eventually finished it, i'm not going to take him saying that a beach boys reunion will never happen too seriously.

i doubt it would ever come to an album, though. probably just some token concerts.

even that's kind of unlikely. leaving the wollongong show of the aus tour last year i got talking to a beaming woman who had just had a great time. in our conversation i mentioned mike love. "who?" so it occurs to me that most people probably wouldn't even know the difference between a beach boys show now and a beach boys show with the other two guys back in the lineup. a lot of people probably go to the shows now and think brian is one of them.

what would a beach boys reunion really mean when 'the beach boys' are actively touring anyway? maybe just sell a few more seats. yeah great to have the "chinese junk" part of somewhere near japan sung by the original vocalist again. the band just wasn't the same without him. (not that i'm hating on that song.)

that said if they ever want to reunite i'm fucking there. then again i'll be at anything vaguely related to the beach boys in any way whatsoever ;D

also, mike is very talented. for the man who co-wrote and sung most of the beach boys early hits, he cops a lot of slack. i'd like to see him finally release that mike love not war joint he's been talking about.

I'd think that, were Mike,  Brian, Bruce and Al onstage in a 'reunion'-format, the ideal set would be:

1st half: a rockandrolling cornucopia of oldies but moldies. Think: Barbara-Ann, think: Help Me Rhonda, think: Good Vibrations.
2nd half: a live performance of the whole of 'Looking Back With Love'. Brian plays a keyboard that is not connected.

A man can dream.

I actually think that if everyone was genuinely up for it, then a BB reunion concert or even short tour could work...and could be a great occasion.

As for an album....I really doubt it...unless they released a live album with a small handful of new studio cuts rather than a full length studio album.

Exactly. It wasn't until Melinda and Brian's manager (whoever that is) "thought it was a good idea to finish SMiLE" did it come to fruition. If Melinda thought it would be a good idea to do a Beach Boys' reunion, you'd be amazed how quickly it could come about.

Brian: Hello, Al, do you wanna record some stuff for a new Beach Boys' album?
Al: Sure!

Brian: Hello, Bruce, do you wanna record some stuff for a new Beach Boys' album?
Bruce: Sure!

Brian: Hello, Mike, do you wanna record some stuff for a new Beach Boys' album?
Mike: Sure! When do you wanna start? Tommorrow? How about the next day?
 

Hell will need to freeze over to have that scenario happen. It really is sad if you think about how easy it can happen, but just a few key people won't let it happen. Too much pride and ego going around. I will go out of my way and say Brian needs The Beach Boys more then The Beach Boys need him. Yes he has become a solo artist and has done great things outside of the band, but that doesn't change the fact that he founded that band. He has known those guys before anyone knew who Brian Wilson was outside Hawthorne, CA. I think what can make it difficult is that the only people that are around Brian see him as, the legend, the solo artist, the genius. Where is anyone in his camp to make him feel grounded?  I have come to the sad conclusion years ago that the people around Brian now don't really know him before the fame and before the myth surrounding him. The difference between them and the Beach Boys, is that the BB do know.

also, carl and dennis are dead, so the beach boys can never properly reunite anyway.
just sayin'.
in the words of lisa simpson, "damn you surviving beach boys!".

hahaha.

..is brian's keyboard really not connected?
i suspected as much.

Al. Hello Mike? Isn't it great Brian called about a new Beach Boys album?
Mike. (click)


So anyway is that still the case or do Al and Mike speak now the court case has been sorted?

I think Brian's reputation has taken a hit since he became a solo artist. In many people's eyes (except on BB/BW message boards), the creative genius or hit-making songwriter tag has left him. But he will always have that aura about him, that potential to come up with something great. People still want to be around him, in some way be a part of his world. And I'm telling you, all it will take is a simple phone call to anyone - including The Beach Boys - and they will come running. Now, I've already admitted that it will take some negotiating to get to that point. But, if it ever does, there will be a reunion. The ball is in Brian's court.

They know, but since the early 70's, I don't think they really care.  That was about the point where Brian's primary purpose to the rest of the band was to be a cash cow.  Brian's current band may be in awe of him, just because he's Brian, but they also show more personal concern for his well being than the remaining Beach Boys have in years (especially true now that Carl and Dennis are gone).

Imagine the stage setup....Brian sitting at a muted keyboard, Al on a guitar that can hardly be heard, Bruce at a plugged in keyboard that he stands behind and waves to the crowd while in his shorts, and Mike on lead vocals. I guess Dave Marks could take the lead as the only BB on stage contributing to the instrumentation.

What I would love to see would be Al on bass, David on guitar, Brian on keyboards, Mike on sax (ha), and Bruce on keyboards. Two keyboard players and maybe they could fill the sound. Add somone on drums and you have a legitimate band. Sadly it would be a bunch of sidememn doing the work with the "BB" standing around.

To be fair and irony-free -

I hope it won't happen. Because it coudn't be an occasion where, as if by magic, all rows, litigations, all strife and all insults would be instantaneously forgotten. It would be a painful thing to behold.

I've no doubt that Melinda helped push him into the direction of SMiLE....but we do know that Brian himself at a party suddenly (to everyone's surprise) started playing H&V...a piece of music he'd refused to discuss with Darian just a few weeks before as "inappropriate music". That story is corroborated by several people including Darian and Scott and I think Brian himself.

Then of course was the all-star tribute thing where Brian and the band played H&V on stage to a standing ovation...Brian has since stated that was when he realised that maybe the world was ready for SMiLE.

Again, I have no doubts that without encouragement and coaxing from Melinda he wouldn't have further touched SMiLE...but I don't think it was just Melinda's idea. It must have been around that time that the Blueboard had those posts from Brian about "I have a master plan for SMiLE" and "doing right by SMiLE" and "that may not mean an album release"....Brian seems to have had an idea to perform SMiLE live in some form or other dating back to that show where he realised H&V was much loved.



As for Brian's keyboard being muted...I don't know but I suspect it might have been in the distant past. At the SMiLE shows he actually played it a little, so it wasn't muted and was hooked up. I think he does like a keyboard there as a security blanket...and hell, if it helps him relax and give live performances then good for Brian and his keyboard.

For awhile Brian played the same chord again and again and again on an obviously muted keyboard. Honestly, I'd rather he pretend to play the keyboard than stand behind it clapping.

I could not disagree with you more.  If anything, Brian's reputation has been enhanced over the past 10 years.

He's reclaimed his music.
He's reclaimed his legacy.
All Star Tribute to Brian Wilson
Musi-Cares
Songwriters Hall of Fame
UK Rock Hall of Fame
He overcame his demons and presented Smile live after 37 years and then released it
Kennedy Center Honors
That Lucky Old Sun

With all due respect, had he stayed with the Beach Boys, he'd be nothing but a prop, a sideshow circus bear trotted out by Mike and then shoved back to the side.  Carlin's book pretty well illustrates how the group felt about Brian during the Stars and Stripes era. 

Brian doesn't need the Beach Boys; the Beach Boys don't need Brian. 

It's a shame, because they could actually scare up a full band of instrumentation of authentic Beach Boys:

Brian: Piano
Al: Rhythm Guitar
Dave: Lead Guitar
Bruce: Keyboards
Blondie: Bass
Ricky: Drums

.... and you even forgot Mike to play those 2 notes on the saxophone (hey, someone needs to blast out the - ehm - "solo" on Shut Down...  ;D   )

Actually, Mike's lungs haven't been strong enough to play saxophone for at least a decade.

I distinctly recall the first announcements made by Brian on the Blueboard way back in 2003, about SMiLE. The Blueboard still was in the finest of fine aquablue colors, by the way. But when you looked closer you began to get a tad doubtful whether it really was Brian himself who typed in those messages... I wouldn't be surprised if it was Melinda all the way, and I wouldn't be disappointed either. Brian may well be in a state of mild chronic depression nowadays, a state which can be overcome with fine-tuned medication and, excuse the words, frequent prodding from the outside. It's not an uncommon situation: the person in question has real trouble to initiate, to implement. He or she looks at future plans as if these were obstacles that can't be overcome. Then, if a caring environment 'pushes' a bit in the right direction, things can be achieved that the patient thought impossible. And afterwards the joy is real, not fake.
So I must say that it does not bother me that perhaps others now and then 'step in for Brian', fuel his desire to do something in whatever way, talk him into a new project. All this is way better for him than letting him slumber on a sofa until it is time to go to bed anyway.

Why, what's wrong with it?

And I think Brian played the opening chords to Marcella during his recent UK tour.

I agree with you. Just because someone is pushing him doesn't mean it's a negative thing. Who are we to say what is best for Brian-- we who don't even know him? We go over this again and again, but Brian's band members have recently marveled at how far he has come in the past few years. I don't think it's because he's being mistreated. As we all know, Brian's tours are not profitable. His solo albums don't make a whole lot of money either. It would be easier and more cost effective for Melinda to let Brian sit around doing nothing. For that reason, I think she pushes him because she cares. And if she's discouraging him from doing a reunion, it's probably because she has had bad experiences with Mike Love, and even though he has his virtues, she probably dislikes him because of the S&S thing, the TV movie, the lawsuits, etc. Those are her experiences, and she probably watched Brian's negative reaction to each one of them. Who can blame her if she wants to keep Brian away from that?

By the way, the whole thing about the unplugged keyboard-- it's obviously not unplugged. He has played it on stage. And also, we've seen him play piano in various DVDs, so obviously he can still play. As Brian's band members say, Brian feels better behind a keyboard. So let him have it onstage. What's the big deal?
 

These have nothing to do with reputation. They are honors and (arguably) achievements, based largely on work that was done 40-45 years ago. A more accurate measure of Brian's current reputation, which is what I was referring to, say the last 20 years, as a solo artist, would be to look at the number of (or lack of) record companies who are lining up to sign him - and/or dropped him.

You think Brian's reputation would have been better... how? Had be stayed with the BBs? Because I don't think Mike and Bruce have a great reputation, do they? Or maybe if he had stayed at home all the time, doing nothing, like so many on this board think he should?
Frankly, I think his reputation is the best it has been since probably the 60s, maybe the 70s. He just came out with an excellent album and is signed back onto Capitol. In terms of people not wanting to sign him/dropping him, that's probably because his music doesn't sell, not because he has a bad musical reputation. Labels don't care about musical integrity.  I think his music was aggressively marketed and able to sell back in the 60s for a number of reasons-- partly because he and the other BBs were young and cute, partly because the music was played on the radio all the time. Those factors aren't there anymore, and a BB reunion won't bring them back. But there are people lining up to collaborate with him (Mike is at the back of a long line), even at this late stage. There are people marveling over "magic chords" and such. I think his reputation is still pretty damn good.

Actually that probably would have helped his reputation most of all. I'm not in favor of that idea, but I think it would have.

Before I knew about Brian's solo career, I thought of him this way:
Man who wrote great music back in the 60s and is now completely in a daze, unaware of his surroundings, and unable to create music. That would be his _current_ reputation (and that's what SJS was referring to) if he had not released solo stuff, particularly TLOS. I also have a fear that if he got on stage with the BBs, where he wouldn't be singing the majority of the leads, the mainstream audience would see a lost man. I'd rather his solo work shine through.

I try my best to respect opinions, all opinions, even when I don't agree with them. But I don't think my statement about Brian's reputation is an opinon. I believe it is a fact.

Honestly, honestly take a look at it. In 1966, Brian had not failed, he had the music world at his feet, he could've and did anything he wanted to (see Smiley Smile). He was a hitmaking machine, one of the 2-3 best songwriters in the business, the genius producer and arranger, and was at or near the top of the rock panthoen. That is a fact.

Flash forward ten years to 1976, Brian's reputation, I repeat reputation, was still very much intact. While the hits had slowed down, his limited contributions were still praised, still the highlights of not only the Beach Boys' albums, but anybody else's albums. He was still in demand, still could've done anything he wanted (and almost did with Love You), and was still, now slightly arguably, one of the best songwriters and producers around. He hadn't failed - yet.

Now Brian is a solo artist, it's 1986. The word is out that he's working on his first solo album. There's a lot of buzz. Despite the failings of the last couple of Beach Boys' albums (that wasn't Brian's fault, right?), the optimism is almost unanimous. Brian Wilson - the genius songwriter, arranger, and producer of The Beach Boys, is finally going to "stretch out" and make the music he wasn't allowed to make in the Beach Boys. Except he didn't. However, it took a couple of more albums before people stopped saying those things about Brian. Oh, yes, the obligatory interviews conducted to promote the release of Brian's solo albums included the standard praise. But many more fans of music (what term do I use?) started to and continue to have their doubts.

Now it's 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and it is a fact that Brian Wilson is not viewed in the same idolitary, mind-blowing, guaranteed to produce something great tones. Not like 1966, 1976, 0r even 1986. That's all I was saying.

Amy, obviously you posted while I was typing mine....But, what you posted is basically what I'm saying. Many people still view Brian the way you used to, as "in a daze, unaware of his surroundings, and unable to create music". Yes, Brian might've won over a few of the non-believers with BWPS and TLOS - I'll grant you that - but that still doesn't mean his reputation hasn't taken a hit, which was my point. An album that appears on the charts for a week or two and disappears doesn't change a lot. And, yes, I know sales don't mean everything. I know, I know....

I'm no Brian obsessive, I don't think everything he touches turns to gold..I just really respect and admire the man.

But I'm just going to be honest with some of you here, not just on this thread but the board in general, it's almost pathetic how critical you are of the man himself

You feel the need to analyze every aspect of him, when really you should just be happy that he's still making great music, so just stop complaing how he plays a muted piano, or how he doesn't bother to fake play it, how he doesn't sing lead on wouldint be nice anymore, how sometimes he is less than impressive live, how his reputation is not what is was anymore (which i disagree with), man I could go on.

Brian has some very harsh fans.

Or maybe i'm not use to Brian Wilson fandom.

Well said

A simple suggestion.

Forget Brian. Think of another big name from the 60'/70s. Now, do you think the music this artist has been releasing in the last two decades makes you enjoy more or less his work from 45/35 years ago?

It's not criticizing the man himself, it's criticizing his music, or his art. And that's a big difference. You CAN separate the two. If people want to criticize Brian Wilson, the man, well..... believe me, you don't wanna go there.

But, in the first place, it's not all criticism. Much of it is well thought out, well written debate and discussion. It's naive to think there aren't two sides to most issues. Why do people "complain" about Brian's lack of piano playing? Because they can't praise his piano playing, because he doesn't play! Why do people "criticize" his lack of expression live? Because it's hard to praise any artist who spends the majority of a live concert with a blank expression on his face! The truth hurts sometimes.

Hey, it's a rock and roll message board. It's not a fan club. That's what we do on a message board. Wild Honey-In Stereo, do you think it's "pathetic" the way Mike Love is criticized. Obviously, people don't "respect and admire" Mike as a man. But, most of the time, they don't respect his talent. So it's not pathetic to take every available shot at him? It's justifiable, right? You can't have it both ways. No, I don't think you are used to Brian Wilson fandom, or rock and roll discussion in general. If you were, you wouldn't have written that post.

If you've ever lived with anyone who suffers from depression, then you know how true this statement is. You also understand why sometimes Brian is so enthusiastic about musical projects, appears animated and excited...and other times he stars blankly and says "My wife wanted me to do it". That's how depression can be, you have good days and bad days...and sometimes you have days when you don't want to get out of bed and do want to stuff yourself with junk all day.

But the bottom line is, you cannot make somebody do something they really don't want to do. Brian was ready to resurrect SMiLE...Melinda had to prod him sometimes but that's how you deal with a chronically depressed person. It's a brain chemistry thing. I don't think anybody who witnessed Brian perform SMiLE is in any doubt that he enjoyed it.

As for the keyboard....if he needs that security blanket, if he needs it perhaps as a "barrier" between himself and the audience then so be it...it's no big deal.

I'm totally agree with you

But the thing to remember here is Brian, and anyone selling a product, is the paying public have a right to critique.

I think fandom in general generates strong opinions. Take fans of any artist, TV show, whatever....some proportion of real hardcore fans will like a specific period of an artist's output (or a TV show's history) and wish that everything they did was like that. But other fans prefer something different, later or earlier work. They differ in opinion about how best the artist should move on with his/her career, or even if they should move on at all.

Here's a nice memory/mental puzzle that someone on another board proposed (in another context, I only adapted it), for me at least it helped put things into perspective:

Friend, it is 1967 now. Even if you weren't even born then, just try to imagine yourself being a young but discerning pop fan in those days... you are already so 'in' with the incrowd that your attention has shifted towards albums, not singles... what do you make of the following predictions:
- the Rolling Stones will record albums and do worldwide tours in stadiums with enormous financial profits 41 years from now;
- and although 'Pet Sounds' wasn't really a hit album, and SMiLE seems to have been shelved for a long time, I predict that Pet Sounds will be recognized from the 1990s onwards as one of the greatest albums ever made, and Brian Wilson will finish SMiLE in the year 2003/2004 and will tour both milestones in their entirety worldwide;
- and, oh yes, Pet Sounds will be with you in a gorgeous stereo mix in 1996; and both it and SMiLE and all other music will be available on a shiny little disc that can also be used as a shaving mirror; and also they can be pulled out of an electronic socket in your wall from a worldwide distribution network.


Well, I would have declared the person who prophecized this a stark raving lunatic madman.

In other words: let's be thankful for what we've got.

I can understand where you are coming from Sheriff, but I have to disagree with you on some things here. Firstly, I agree that it's totally fair to critique Brian's music/art. I mean nobody HAS to like it if they don't want to. I mean anyone can like whatever they want...if someone thinks that Summer Of Love is the greatest song ever written then good for them, I'm glad they enjoy it. But I think some of the criticism of Brian is a little unfair. I thought I'd quote Amy B. from a little while back as she makes some great points:


I also think it's a little unfair how people complain about how Brian doesn't even play his keyboard, he is a bad live performer, he has a blank look on his face a lot of the time etc... I mean come on, give the guy a break. He is 66 years old you know. And I mean as we all know, Brian has NEVER been a good live performer, he has taken countless drugs and smoked heaps over the years which have no doubt done a lot of damage including ruining his voice and screwing with his brain. And the guy has a mental illness for crying out loud!! I mean, I'm 20 years old, I have never done drugs, have never smoked, I don't drink, I don't have a mental illness and yet I'm pretty sure that Brian could still do a better job than me.

My point being, if you want to criticize his latest song saying "Morning Beat just isn't my thing", then that is totally cool. But sometimes it just goes too far and it just annoys me. I could understand if a newbie, a casual fan or a non-fan said things like "gee that Brian guy is weird" but it amazes me how fans of Brian's can always bring up things like I mentioned before: "he is a bad concert performer, he needs a teleprompter, he doesn't even use his keyboard and he sings off-key"... I mean okay, let's just mention it once if we have to but can we get over it now? I'm sick of hearing about the same complaints over and over again. Brian isn't going to magically be healed and go back to his 1964 self again.

It also annoys me how people complain about how That Lucky Old Sun was largely written in 2006 and the rest of it before that (even as far back as the 70s etc..). Well, who cares? Why should that matter? He still wrote the damn thing. I mean if Brian wrote a decent/good/great song or riff twenty years ago that has never been released, then why shouldn't he release it?


As far as I know (though I may have missed one of his earlier posts) Wild Honey-In Stereo didn't even mention Mike so I don't know what this has to do with anything.

I interjected Mike's name into this because I thought he would be easier to relate to, but you could use any other rock and roll artist/musician/singer. My point being....

Wild Honey-In Stereo thought it was "pathetic of how critical you are of the man himself". Wild Honey-In Stereo also said, "I just really admire and respect the man", and "you should just be happy that he's still making great music". So, I'm assuming that means that we shouldn't criticize certain things about Brian Wilson, things that Wild Honey-In Stereo finds objectionable, based on the person or man that Brian Wilson is. Does that mean because of the psychological condition he is in? Or that he was a martyr who gave his life for his art? That he is too sympathetic a figure to criticize? Or that because he gave us so much great music that he should never be criticized? That we should only thank him and worship him? Or just be grateful that he's still recording great (his words, not mine) music?

On the other hand, another artist, who doesn't fall into most of those categories - I used Mike Love as an example - should be judged by another standard? That's what I meant by having it both ways. Brian Wilson can never lose, he's beyond reproach. But most other artists are fair game. There's one set of rules for Brian - how dare you criticize him. And another set of rules for everybody else - let the music stand on its own.

And in reality, isn't that how we sometimes judge the Beach Boys' music, by how we feel about the man. Brian is back and we're happy to have him back. Be happy he's still recording. Be happy he's still breathing. He took those drugs to self-medicate himself, from the pain. The marijuana, hashish, LSD, uppers, downers, cocaine - he needed that. He wasn't some hedonistic rock and roller "living the high life". And poor Dennis. Murry fu--ed him up. That's why he was the way he was. He had an excuse. And he "looked" like a real Beach Boy. But, Mike and Al, they didn't fry their brains or voice, so they have no excuse. They didn't give us as much great music so it's not pathetic to criticize them. And Bruce, he was adopted into a rich family. Well, he gets no pass here, buster. What dues did he pay? And he tours with Mike. No soup for you!

I used to be guilty of that, starting all the way back in 1976. I used to, and to some extent still am sympathetic to Brian. But after you carry that around for 32 years, I don't know, it kinda wears off. The excuses become redundant. The patience wears thin. You start to judge his work on the same plain as every other artist releasing new music. Yeah, he charges money for CD's, concert tickets, T-shirts, books, etc. But it's not just that. Ah, nevermind....

Breaking news: There will be a BB reunion when Dennis and Carl come back!

Dear Sherriff JS -
although I don't agree with you on various points (but in degrees, not in sharp contrast, so a heavy debate is nonsense) I see your point. This is where I stand, roughly...
In 1995, I was overwhelmed when having read articles in the UK press, good, detailed ones, about the work that Brian and Andy Paley did in the studio then. Soon thereafter, I came into the possesion of a recording of demos and my hope was confirmed: 'Getting In Over My Head', 'Must Be A Miracle', and other songs could, with proper production and real instruments in stead of keyboards, be the sign of a true comeback, the comeback that the '88 album did not turn out to be. And, I think all of us somehow here have that obsession: there were few things in the world we wanted more than a true Brian Wilson comeback, sans Landy, and general acknowledgment that his genius is unique.
Instead, he found Joe Thomas. Turned in a few mediocre products (the Nashville Sessions are not really awful, just mediocre... and I don't know what is worse). As if he was on a boat, surely afloat and not sinking, but without direction.
Meanwhile the public portrait of Brian Wilson was refined and painted in truthful colors (I am thinking about the Don Was film here; and sympathetic books by Tim White and later Peter Ames Carlin of course).
Yes, in some respects Brian Wilson fans can be the saddest shoegazing fans in the world, endlessly ruminating about what might have been, and I do belong firmly into that category.
I think it is quite fair to say that his output from 1988 onwards does not hold up to the sixties peaks. The melodies are simpler, changes are more predictable, sometimes on the verge of childishness. Still, for this person they still are a joy to listen to. I try to take it all in on its own merits, and that works quite well. And: Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE for me is outside of time and place. It is a masterwork and I firmly agree with the rating that Robert Christgau gave it: an A+, because it shows that there still might be some hope that pop music is not only the predictable dire stadium fodder that is served on a daily basis by the likes of U2, Coldplay, the Rolling Stones, and all those big names from the past with one or two surviving founder members in the line-up.
And hey... I would be rather eager to exchange the whole of the Stones' or Led Zep's output for a solitary gem like The Night Was So Young or This Song Wants To Sleep With You Tonight.

Good news. I will speed up the development of the Don's Essential Revitalisator in my hidden lab in the European Alps. More news to follow, stay tuned.

No see you don't get what I'm saying, you can be critical about Pet Sounds and I won't care. I never said in my original post about criticising his work, that's fair game.

What I said was how BB and Brian fans criticise everything about him, and how they should just be happy he's still motoring on. It's just bitching when you start going on about how he doesn't fake play his muted piano, or how one member said when I pay to see a Brian show he should sing lead on every song..MY GOD..he's not a circus monkey you fool, if he wants Jeff to take lead on a song cause it sounds better, that should be fine, cause it does sound better.

I think there's a difference in the criticisms of Brian and the criticisms of Mike. With Mike, the criticism center on the way he sometimes treats other people and the way he talks about other people in interviews. He comes across as very bitter and seems to go out of his way to put other people down in order to make himself look good. I'm not saying he's a villain or has no redeeming qualities, but he just doesn't seem very likeable. The other criticism is the fact that he criticizes other people's work without having come up with anything worthwhile himself. And that seems hypocritical. Also, in a sense, he bites the hand that feeds him. He makes a living from Brian's work and although he has said some very nice things about Brian, he has also criticized Brian, commented on his mental illness in an unsympathetic way, and otherwise suggested that Brian is not all there. It's almost character assassination. And he's very commercial, and while this is okay by itself, he seems unwilling to even acknowledge that anything non-commercial is even worth hearing.

With Brian, the criticism seems to be based on his work, and while that's okay by itself, the critics seem to have set the standard impossibly high. No, he hasn't attained his 60s heights. Has anyone else? No, his voice isn't as good as it used to be. But neither is McCartney's or Mike Love's. No, he's not a good performer. But he never was. There are also criticism of his actions. He's withdrawn. He doesn't talk to fans at some signings. He relinquishes control to his band sometimes. But to me, these things as a lot less worth of criticism than Mike's personality issues. Brian has said not-so-nice things about people in the past, but it certainly doesn't dominate his views. Like anyone, he'll blurt something out every now and then, but he has also acknowledged his own failings, and to me, that's huge. Where Mike comes off as arrogant and ignorant, Brian comes off as modest and self-aware.

Where exactly is Brian's solo career being commented or talked about? Nowhere but here and the other Beach Boys message boards. It's healthy, then, to accept all the range of opinions and views, cause they're what gives Brian's solo career a modest but respectable afterlife. I guess some opinions posted here may turn some stomachs, including mine, but hey, it could be worse. At least we don't have a huge meltdown every week like in the Record Room.  ;D

Everyone knows how things work here. Person A says Mike dumped on Pet Sounds while he had nothing to offer, Person B will reply that Carl did the same with 15 Big Ones and he's even praised for that etc. The blame threads are tipically Beach Boys. But when someone says that TLOS is Brian's best work since 1967, even though it's a minority opinion, it IS respected here. At least as far as I can see. On the other hand, whoever thinks that TLOS just plain sucks - I don't - should be free to do so as well.

Wrong. There's a difference between saying "Brian sits in front of a keyboard and doesn't play it" and "Damn, Brian Wilson sucks because he doesn't play his keyboard! I don't know why it's even there! He doesn't deserve to be on stage if he's not playing an instrument. He'd be better off playing the piano than singing, anyway. His voice sucks!" Mentioning something is not "going on about" it and "bitching".

I am all with Amy B. here. I had the fortune to shake Brian's hand in 2004, get an autograph, and say 'hello' and thank him. He was a bit awkward after the show, made the exchange very brief, and kept it to one autograph. 'Just the one', he said. Now, the crux of the matter for me is: with Brian, I can see totally how and why this is. On other days (I know that from people in person) he talks about the weather, music, takes his time for a few photos. Nothing wrong.
I would interpret the same behavior by Mike towards me in a different light. I'd think: he isn't really that interested. He's thinking of other things.
 

All of which has nothing to do with how their music/art/singing/piano playing/non-piano playing should be judged or criticized. But it is. Unfortunately...

I think Mike's persona really interferes with the way he comes across as a musician to me. That's precise the problem. I quite like the 'Knebworth 1980' live CD, although (or perhaps: even more because) the health of various group members was not good.
There's a nice rendition of 'Lady Lynda'. Sort of a highlight for Al. And then, during the nice (adopted from Bach) outro, Mike suddenly rips apart all the charm and shouts: 'A-A-A-A-L J-A-A-A-R-D-I-I-N-E'. That is evil. It is pure narcissism: to kill off the nice moment, and wanting to be the center of attention. And he adds insult to injury by calling the group after that to repeat the outro, this time sans interruption by the all-mighty, wonderful, charming, internet-inventing and legal-wunderkind Michael Love. Meh. And another big Meh. Mike Love is anti-art. Perhaps he is made of anti-matter that physicists sought for so long.

And I understand that. I'm the same way with some artists. I really believe that many times, it's not so much the artist's music that turns us off or doesn't "grab us", but the persona of the artist. My point is, and obviously I haven't been articulating it effectively, is that, on this board and other BB/BW-related boards, it goes TOO MUCH both ways. God forbid there is any criticism, even honest, fair criticism, of Brian. But others aren't given the same prejudice. And I'm not talking about only Mike Love. And, as I stated somewhere above, I used to have a sympathetic shoulder myself. There's just something about THIS Brian from THAT Brian (if that makes sense) that doesn't want me to make excuses anymore.

God, Did Brian run over your dog or something.

I don't see criticism of Brian as being made into a problem except on the blueboard, where people are accutely aware that Brian might be watching. I don't know of any other board where it's not okay to criticize Brian. I think that when people start complaining about the criticism, it's because the criticism just seems relentless, like Brian can't do anything right. Then those same people can't do enough to praise Mike, like they're overcompensating both ways. Like, "Oh, I saw a Brian show in 2004, and he just sat there and waved his hands. And he didn't hit the high notes on God Only Knows very well. What happened to that beautiful falsetto? And even though the band played extremely well, somehow I detected that maybe they're getting tired. And the only rarities I heard were Sail On Sailor and Marcella. Come on, Brian. Time to hang it up. I'm done with Brian live." Then they see the Mike and Bruce show-- "I just saw the Beach Boys, and wow, what a show. Sure, Mike was kind of nasal, but he had fun, and so did the audience. The band took over a lot of the vocals that Mike can't handle, but that's okay. The band finally has a decent drummer! Mike winked at girls and told us to wave our cell phones around. He didn't mention Brian at all, but it was a great show! They even stopped the hits for a minute and played Sail on Sailor! Long live the Beach Boys!"

Double standard.

Dunno, people jumped on me on this board for having the temerity to suggest TLOS was less than perfect. Not to martyr myself - its a board on the internet for chrissakes, and nobody should get too upset - just that I thought I was being constructively critical.

This sort of hardened my attitude though. Surely when there is a favorite artist who releases a new product you can also think "If this was some person I'd never heard of, would I still buy, listen and like this album?" And for TLOS, my answer is a very half-hearted "I sort of guess so."

I don't really want a reunion or anything, but I agree with the Sheriff in some ways.

Double standards against Brian and pro Mike? I think my head will explode.  ;D

Whoever's 'watching' on the Bloo, their initials sure aren't BDW.  ::)

As with any fan site/board, the people populating this site are likely to include some who are really fanatical in their support of Brian. If you criticise somebody's idol you get bitten.

This goes for any fan site, there are also people who will sometimes state their opinion as if it is fact. "Album X or TV episode Y are just awful"...but ther are bound to be people who disagree.

Personally I don't think Brian is the messiah, and there are strange things that sometimes happen in the Brian Wilson camp. Witness the "bad burrito" incident. We all ought to know that Brian isn't all he once was, and that he has good and bad days. But I do believe that he still has great music within him, and that TLOS is a great and cohesive album. But I can be OK if somebody disagrees -  as long as they come up with reasons for their opinion and state it as an opinion.

Just try going to a Doctor Who board..."Oh I wish every episode was like 'Love & Monsters' "........"Noooo that was crap, I think every one should be like 'The Empty Child' "......truth is you need a mixture of story styles in such a TV show and that musical artists have often come up with different styles of song throughout long careers.....and get this.....it is possible to love a music artist without liking 100% of everything they ever put out.

This is just a lame, rote non-point, all ways round. It's right up there as a credibility killer with "You're just jealous!" and "I'd like to see YOU make an album / movie / whatever!"

\

I thought so. I'd bet on MLW, or MDM, or both. I claim my $ 0.23 now. Through Paypal, please.

I don't see how anyone could have proof of that, short of observing Brian during times when "his" posts pop up on the board. Personally, I have no idea who is really posting in Brian's name-- Brian, Melinda or someone else. Regardless, the perception among many fans is that it's Brian, and therefore, they don't want to say anything that might hurt his feelings. When you look at it that way, it's like going up to Brian at a signing and saying, "Not your best show tonight, Brian, huh?" I think of it this way: Criticism is not the purpose of the blueboard-- or really anyone's fan board.

I appreciate your take on things. The Blueboard perhaps is a bit of a Fantasy Island, in that the sentimentality factor is more than maximal, and qualities like irony or humoristic sarcasm don't go down well and people may get banned for that (the sadly deceased Michael Lenz is an example of that).
By the way: your made-up 'comment' to Brian at a signing... I have a feeling in the back of my mind (sic) that Mike Love may actually have said that to Brian in the eighties many times...

That's cool, I don't want to take what you say out of context but there's a whole section on this board which is album reviews, so I guess that sort of means criticism from some people, especially in the case of Imagination or SIP.

I like reading that someone hates a song I love, and vice versa, this happens a lot here. The BBs covered a lot of ground culturally in their long existence. So we're all baggage that they picked up along their way (post-dated in many cases)

In terms of this, Brian's career is kind of a pleasant cul-de-sac which I guess people can take or leave (I like a lot of it, but I would say it's generally not vital or particularly relevant to how music's evolved, unlike his/their earlier stuff). And if people feel it's bringing them diminishing returns, well, it's their call, really.

The only explaination that I would have is that people go to Brian's shows with sky high expectations. Instead of 10/10 they get 7/10 thus are disappointed. Then they go to Mike's show with very low excpectations. Instead of a 1/10 they get a 4/10. Thus they are thrilled.

Hm. I went to the London Pet Sounds show in 2002. I didn't have any idea what to expect, apart from a few written hints of Americans who saw him with 55 piece orchestra in outdoor shows (hope I'm correct here). Prior to the show, I got somewhat disappointed after hearing that he'd bring a extended Wondermints backing band with him, but no symphony orchestra. I can honestly say that it was the finest show I ever saw (on a par with SMiLE, 2004, same venue). 10 out of 10, unqualified. Had you asked me before: 'what do you hope to hear?' and afterwards: 'what did you actually hear?', you'd see that both answers were/are absolutely equal.
Finest moment for me: when Brian took a brief rest whilst the band did 'Pet Sounds', the track. He'd turned his back on us and sat there, peacefully, and very obviously enjoying his achievement.
Finest. Moment. Ever.

(Next show that I'll attend: Van Dyke Parks with Inara George. Jealous? I thought so... >:D

I don't know about those numbers, I've never been to a Brian Wilson concert. Anyway: Latter day Brian and too many expectations don't mix well. I agree with that.

For what it's worth, I have always assumed that it is Melinda or somebody else actually at the keyboard (she seems PC savvy)....but that she is actually talking to Brian at the time. I have always assumed that it is Brian's words, just that he's not typing.

Brian clearly does interact with fans, those phone calls for chairty were not faked after all. And I've never heard him say "I have a website? Jeez I never saw that!". So I expect he's aware of what goes on there...and of course, being his official board, nobody criticises too heavily. When "he" started posting about the master plan for SMiLE, I do not imagine for one moment that was posted without his say-so.

We do have no actual evidence either way, at least none that I recall. I don't think anyone has ever actually outright asked Brian in an interveiw, "Hey, those posts on the board...are they you or your wife/manager?". THat doesn't prove that Brian never views the board himself, never types his own messages. We simply don't know and have to draw likely conclusions from the available evidence.

However.....70% of my brain would trust AGD's opinion :)

I'm still somewhat disappointed by people's lack of understanding of depression as an illness. Brian will have to be poked in the right direction by those who live with him and love him. As Melinda fully admits, sometime in 1996 she said to him "Come on Brian, time to get your butt of the chair and play music". And you know what? With a depression sufferer that's sometimes how it is....for years on end. Trust me...and trust anyone who's ever lived with a partner suffering clinical depresion.

That's a really great call, absinthe_boy. You hit it on the head: chronic depression often is marked by what's known as 'catastrophic expectation'. That sounds louder than it actually is. What's meant by this is: the patient has very low expectations of what will be the outcome of his or her actions. Like in: 'oh, why should I bother, I am not that important, and if I try, it might fail miserably, and if people act as if I succeed, they might be simply cheating on me because they think I am a loser anyway and want to cheer me up a bit, but they don't like my efforts in reality, that's how it is and how it shall be forever...'. These thoughts often hijack the brain and feelings of a depressive, and are probably the cause of his avoidance behavior and procrastination. A terrible numbness makes the sufferer a true prisoner of his own negative thoughts and sensations.
It is, sad to say, almost impossible to break up the vicious circles and downward spiralings entirely. Well-tuned medication and gentle, caring prodding can do a lot, but the right balance is often found only after years of trying.

I think we must accept that non-depressives often can't emphathize like we'd want them to. Simply because they are used to see a task as something to be done and succeed in. Their worldview is profoundly different.
It is not really becoming, from a moral point of view, to mark persons as being 'normal' and 'abnormal', because there is no absolute standard. Yes, the depressive may have a distorted view on what he or she can accomplish and how much that accomplishment is worth in human terms. But then: one could also say that 'normal' folks have a wild and blissfully ignorant optimism about them in everyday life; and they aren't even vaguely aware of the sheer luck they have that not a single one of the, oh, 1 million fragile parameters that determine their life all of the time go terribly wrong at any given point in time.
There are no 'set truths' in these matters. And depression is a real illness, not a temporary 'dip' or 'whim'.

When Brian first started posting on his site, I told him there was no way we could be sure it was actually him (this was before the color-coding). So he asked for my phone number then called me...twice...on his birthday! He told me that Melinda reads messages to him, and he dictates responses to for her to type.

 8) pwh

Yes, he has said that more than once. He said he doesn't know how to use a computer or apparently want to learn, so Melinda does the typing as he dictates. And this seems reasonable. Once, someone posted and Melinda said hello to the person, only under Brian's name. Some people used this as proof that Melinda was posting without Brian's knowledge, as Brian. Someone questioned her, and she said, "It's me typing, but Brian's words. I just wanted to say hello." I don't see any reason to doubt that, and I can totally see Brian VERY occasionally wanting to see what the fans are saying. I would think a message board is a welcome way for him to interact with the fans-- totally not threatening. And obviously he knows the board exists... the Katrina calls started that way, and I can assure you it was him on the phone. He's not THAT out of it. He did claim in a recent interview that he had never heard of his Web site. I assume it was just one of those weird misunderstandings or blips.

Heartical Don, that's such an excellent point.

The issue, such as there has ever been an issue, is a simple one. Brian is mentally ill. Because that doesn't present as any other illness or disability would (a pianist missing an arm would only be able to play with one hand, for instance), people so often mistrust him and the people around him.

I think, honestly, everyone is trying their best. Does greed and manipulation enter the picture? Maybe at times and with certain people. They enter the picture in virtually all human affairs. But I have always been inclined to give BW and those around him the benefit of the doubt. Even Landy, at certain points. It's an imperfect situation, filled with imperfect people. The result will likely be imperfect.

Can I just reach back to say that I think that this starts from a false premise?

Back in 1986-88, to me, Brian Wilson was irrelevant.  He wasn't a lost genius who'd done the greatest albums in history, he was a rock star who had gone nuts.  I knew who he was, but I didn't really care.  He wasn't even the most noticeable Beach Boy to me -- I liked "Getcha Back", I liked "Kokomo", I liked the old stuff, but when it came to the band the things us 14-16-year-olds were most likely to talk about was their drummer drowning.

There wasn't unanimous optimism about him doing a solo album.  Among the elite rock cognoscenti at the time, maybe.  But to the rest of the world, the people who thought that were the fringe dwellers.  It was only big news within a cult.

And I'd say that in the days since then, since the stereo Pet Sounds reissue and the box set, since Brian's two high-charting albums and the Smile story, that cult has grown exponentially.

Sure, to a lot of kids today Brian Wilson is still irrelevant.  But among the people who know his name, both true fans and casual people-who-know-his-name, the general perception is closer to "damaged artist, still out there" than "flakey has-been", which is what it was 20 years ago.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Ohh yes.  I would never have dared make that reference here.  :-)

ObBeachBoys:  "Love & Monsters" -- the "Beach Boys Love You" of Doctor Who...

Cheers,
Jon Blum
(Love & Monsters is what we need toniiiight...)

Speaking of Dr Who... Is this you Jonathan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Blum

(insert Dalek smiley here)

No, it hasn't.

Yes, it has.

Oh yeah? Yeah. Oh yeah? Yeah! Nuh-uh. Uh-huh! Nu-uh. Uh-huh! Oh yeah? Yeah. Well my dad can beat up your dad. Guess I settled this one.

Stone's response to Jonathan's post was sad and pathetic. I was just throwing my support to Jonathan.

Yup.  Speaking of flakey has-beens.  :-)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

You just knew if you waited long enough, one day there would be a BB/ Dr Who tie-in didn't you?  ;)

I don't know. Between 1993 and 1997 people had access to the whole Beach Boys catalogue and then some (Smile and rarities in the box set). Brian Wilson had a real mystique between the hipsters. It was the peak of 'Pet Sounds is the best album ever', and he still had the Smile ace up his sleeve! The fans expected that, when free of the Beach Boys and Dr. Landy, Brian would show everyone what he was keeping to himself since he 'went to bed'.

Then.... 1998. Imagination. GIOMH. BWPS. WDIRWFC. TLOS.

Gone is the mystique around Brian AND Smile. No one's expecting a comeback anymore. That was vital to his image since the seventies. The live tours are well attended but they are more a opportunity to pay tribute to one of the greats than to apreciate Brian's performing skills.

But I wouldn't say his cult has dwindled either.

Hey Jonathan, sure it's occurred to you before. But a Doctor Who story - combining sea monsters, surfing, sewerage, sibling rivalry, female hair loss, shock therapy, the ghost of Amadeus, droll men dancing the chicken, cults of beautiful women... surely it's just waiting to be written?

Then you and I have conversed via the net before....back in the 90's....when I used a different name!

And back then I *never* thought I'd witness Brian Wilson performing a completed SMiLE live. But it's happened...and that has incrased his profile. Heck, even the CNN ticker had "Former Beach Boy Brian Wilson performs lost SMiLE album for the first time in 37 years at London's Royal Festival Hall" the whole day of the premiere.

...but didn't Fox News run: "Former Commie Pothead Brian Wilson Disappoints Dwarfed But Well-paying Conservative Fanbase In Labour-led London"?

Probably. Nothing like that would surprise me from Fox "News".

Incredible how cynical people like Sheriff John Stone are about Brian.

Don't mind him, it's all just opinions, no love lost :)

With all due respect, but I doubt whether 'cynical' is the operative word here (well, for me it isn't, for you it may well be). Let me try to clarify my views a bit: I recall 1988 extremely well. The 'revitalisation' of Brian Wilson, or 'revivification', or 'comeback', or 'back from the brink event', or whatever... the press had a field day. Everyone, but everyone was highly sympathetic towards Brian, with good reasons, and Landy smoothly blended in with all the good cheer. There was that fine article in Rolling Stone (by Michael Goldberg) with a beautiful photo of Bri, clad in bluejeans and a yellow shirt (see, that's how well I recall those days). The UK press went into overdrive and produced one hagiographic article after another. I bought it all (literally, at the newsstands, and figuratively, I believed every letter). Then the LP was released. I saw it for the first time in the store, and thought: 'my, what a beautiful sleeve...' (and it was; much better than was the case with later efforts).
I played the album endlessly and was utterly overwhelmed. I thought that 'Rio Grande' was a masterwork. I tired many others with my eulogies. Like, oh. perhaps thousands of other BW fanatics did. He could do no wrong at age 46 with me.

Now, 20 years later, I think that my power of judgment and sensibilities were quite out of normal working order then. I don't mind that. It happens. In recent years, I chatted with many others who went through exactly the same feelings. We tend to agree about the following:
- yes, the comeback of BW was something special, even given the involvement of Landy, his awful pretense and out-of-line control madness, and the doings of the Love Brotherhood;
- no, the LP was not quite what others, and we ourselves, cracked it up to be at the time;
- it had about three or four really good songs on it;
- the thousands of collaborators and guests on it did it no good at all;
- now, the sound is very dated and tinny, and compressed (no thanks to über-king of schmaltz synth pop with a highly limited sell-by date, Jeff Lynne;
- what exactly did Terence Trent D'Arby do on it?
- finally: our judgment (and I don't mean 'objective' judgment, that does not exist in art) had failed us because we so much wanted the whole enterprise to succeed - the world at large now did have to understand how great Brian Wilson was, and still could be.

Why did I write all this? Because I tried to empathize with the Sheriff, although I don't share his point of view. What one wants, desires an event to be can seriously color one's judgment of that very same event.

Does this help?

Perhaps the Sheriff is not from the UK? It is my observation that Brian is often held in different regard in other territories. Its worth noting that Pet Sounds Live charted here....and Brian has had a handful of hit singles as a solo artist here...whereas only "Caroline, No" charted in the USA. Indeed every one of Brian's solo albums has charted in the UK...including "Live @ The Roxy".

My POV.

As a 15 year old in 1988's UK I can confirm what the Don says. There was a LOT of coverage. Brian was already known over here not merely as a Beach Boy but as the man largely responsible for Pet Sounds - which was already recognised as a truly great milestone in popular music. Indeed from what I have been able to discover, Pet Sounds was always seen that way this side of the pond.

But, things went into overdrive with the release of BW88. There was a lot of media interest, Brian was in the mainstream newspapers (ie not the music press), on TV and so on. A good looking, fit looking Brian. OK so Landy was in the shadows and saying "I did this! I brought Brian back!" but we wanted to believe it...as the Don said.

So the LP came out. I didn't actually buy it at the time, I was at school and sharing tapes with friends. We couldn't all afford to buy everything. So we shared...much the same way kids bluetooth MP3s to each other today. OK so I went to an unusual school (private "progressive" establishment where Sgt. Pepper and Never Mind The Bollocks were on the syllabus) but for sure...BW88 was one of the tapes swapped around the playground. And as the Don says...I recall people initially thinking it was great...and later tempering their enthusiasm, realising it was merely good with a few outstanding moments (Rio Grande among them). As an aside, being given tapes in the playground is how I first heard Pet Sounds and the 1966 SMiLE recordings...

The press probably wanted BW88 to succeed just as much as we did. And quietened down when it was a comparative failure articstically and commercially.

Forward a few years to 1995 and Brian is again in the headlines and on TV thanks to Don Was. I remember seeing a documentary on the Theramin where Brian talked about its use in Good Vibrations, then a few weeks later I think Channel 4 actually showed the whole "I Wasn't Made For These Times". It was suggested by one continuity announcer after that Brian might be working on a second solo album...his colleage replied something like 'I hope so, but I have doubts about a man who's taken so many drugs he hardly knows his own name'.

Clearly they knew about Brian, and expectations were low.

I was living in the USA when Imagnination came out...there was quite a lot of media interest. I asked friends back in the UK, and the story was the same. But after the album came out, all the media interest kind of melted away in teh USA...because the album was not a great success. The story would have been "Brian back at the top of the charts" but it merely sold OK.

But....the prospect of touring...I remember (back in the UK by mid 1999) an article in the Guardian (mainstream non music newspaper, left of centre)...a long interview with Brian saying he wanted to tour and the interviewer clearly familiar with Brian saying that although Brian was better mentally and physically than he'd ever seen him...that touring seemed a pipe dream.

But Brian did tour. And we in the UK got wind that his shows were pretty good. We didn't get to see Brian ourselves until the royal party thing in 2000...where he performed in front of the Queen and a gazillion people and live TV. He looked uncomfortable but the voice was OK.

THen came the Pet Sounds tour. I cannot exaggerate how much media interest that generated. Brian was on the TV, in the mainstream news media...everyone without exception saying this was the real deal...a true pop legend at his best, a show that exceeded expectations.

Of course SMiLE took things up several gears into overdrive.

So...that was a long post...but I'd say that Brian's career certainly from IJWMFTT onwards *has* cemented his legacy and boosted his visibility to the public. It can't have gone un-noticed amongst music enthusiasts that Mojo Magazine gave him gig of the year award in 2002 and 2004, and listed a SMiLE show as among the top 10 gigs of ALL TIME....up there with seeing the Beatles or the Stones (in their prime) or Hendrix.

Sure, had Brian put on his slippers and given up after the comparative failure of BW88 he'd still be talked about....but I genuinely believe not as much as he is now.

HD, I think a lot of us know that views of Brian can be extremely colored by sympathy/empathy for him and by the hope that he's still that great genius from the 60s. But I take issue with a couple of your points:

--I think BW 88 is a fantastic album, even 20 years after its release. Is it perfect? No. But that it is as good as it is, under the circumstances, is what deserves the praise.
-- I don't think your viewpoint is as extreme as SJS's viewpoint. I think a refusal to see anything positive in BW's current state is as bad as, if not worse than, a refusal to see anything negative.

Most of the apologists tend to be newer fans. Among people who have been at this for at least a couple of years, most are in the middle and are able to see that the situation is a lot more nuanced than some of the press would have us believe. (Good and evil sells magazines.) I suppose if your expectations or beliefs have been let down one too many times, you develop a very jaundiced view of the whole thing, but I think there are positive aspects to Brian's current output and state of mind that need to be acknowledged. I think some insiders end up overstating the negative in an attempt to cloud the rose-colored glasses of newer fans. I'm not going to apologize for loving TLOS (or even the X-Mas album) or thinking Brian was having a good time in the Black Cab or even thinking at Melinda basically has Brian's best interests at heart. Or for thinking that Mike is a bastard with some good qualities but limited talents rather than a misunderstood and neglected lyrical genius. The arguments in support of my opinions are legitimate. The truth is that no one will ever know what the truth is. It's too complicated for there to be one truth.
 

I liked BW 88, about half of it was great, but my expectations weren't high because of my knowledge of Brian's history and his recent work with the Beach Boys (BB 85 was dreadful).  The fact it was as good as it was gave me hope that Brian's next work would be even better.  But it wasn't - Sweet Insanity, IJWMFTT, Imagination, GIOMH were all disappointments.  If he had followed up the 88 album with TLOS, I think people would have seen that Brian had REALLY "come back."  That it's taken this long to get an album that is even a worthy successor to 88 is sad, and a testament to the poor care that was given to Brian in the 90's.  (I'm excluding Smile of course, as it is not a "new work')

Care to share those figures - i can't find any chart positions for the following UK BW releases:

Orange Crate Art
Live at the Roxy
Pet Sounds Live
What I Really Want For Christmas

I sort of agree with Amy. I like the 88 album quite a lot and Ive only just heard it about six months ago. At first the eighties thing put me off a bit, but I like it quite a bit, but I got over it and even kind of enjoy it now.

I do agree with the Sherriff that if it had been a Beach Boys album==one with the same arrangements and production but different lead vocals--it would have been even better; but I still think it was very good. NOt the best album of 1988, but, really one of the best IMO. There is more creativity in the arrangements of nearly any of those songs than some artists put on whole albums.

Also, the new album is very, very good. Perhaps better than 88, perhaps not. The sound is less dated. What's the deal? One thing, though: I do not think TLOS would have been better as a BB album. In fact, I don't think it would work at all. If anything, I would say Brian's voice is more pleasing to me now than it was 20 years ago.

Orange Crate Art is not a Brian Wilson solo album....it's a Van Dyke Parks album on which Brian sings...you know that!

Live @ The Roxy UK chart position 199

Pet Sounds Live UK chart position 107

I made a boo-boo with Christmas, it didn't chart in the UK.

I didn't say top 40, I said they charted.

Nor did I... and they didn't chart - the official UK album chart only recognises the top 100. Check out the UK LP chart book - they're not in it.

This might be only semi-related to the thread, but does anyone know how much Brian's '88 solo album cost  to produce and why?  I recall once reading it cost $1 million dollars.  Considering it was nearly all done with synthesizers, how can that be?  Maybe the $1 million included marketing costs, but even if it cost one-quarter of that for production, I'm not sure how.

Wasn't it recorded in like 11 studios? Also, a lot of the time was wasted.

You know what is sad,though? All that money was spent...and Gary Usher saw barely any of it.

The thing is... that's about where I came in (I bought the boxset because I was curious about Smile, then liked Orange Crate Art, and finally got ahold of bootlegs thanks to the net in '98)...  but I saw a fairly different picture.  The legend that was around at that point, where I was at least, wasn't The Once And Future Brian...  it was Brian the ex-genius, cut down at the peak of his creative flowering by his inner demons, who'd been trotted out repeatedly like a dancing bear (as it were) by his band and his therapist, and who, now free of them, seemed to need all his mental energy to tuck his shirt in.  I don't think anyone I knew thought he was capable of great creative work in his own right, and the spangly and hollow feel of "Imagination" lived down to our expectations.

(Which is why everything he's done since then has felt like a successive series of steps up, to heights I hadn't imagined.)

The notable thing is that the image of Brian I encountered as I entered the fan environment didn't seem that different from the Brian I'd known of in the outside world...  he was still the rock star who'd lost it, with an added helping of having been a genius rock star.  But basically it was the same mental image I'd had since I was a kid -- my nine-year-old self can still remember a comedy bit on "Solid Gold" back in 1981, with a guy selling Brian Wilson candy bars.  ("Sure, they're nuts, but they're seeing a psychiatrist...")  And while I'm sure the hype surrounding the '88 album echoed loudly among the people who already thought Brian was a genius, it clearly didn't carry over into the wider world enough to translate into people giving the record a try.


Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Go back through that list a bit more slowly...  Imagination... GIOMH...  Brian Wilson Presents Smile.  Yep, Brian Wilson has finished Smile.  How quickly we forget!  Right there, that's the comeback no one was expecting.  The stuff biopics are made of.

I think the people to whom the mystique of Smile is "gone" are the people who were heavily invested in Smile-as-puzzle-box...  the solution is never as interesting as the mystery.  But Smile-as-redemption-story is a whole different myth, reaching a whole different audience, including people who hadn't been hanging out for it for forty years.  It redefined his legend from The Lost Beach Boy to The One Who Made It Back.  Not without a hell of a lot of damage, and not without help, but dammit he climbed the mountain that defeated him all those years ago.

And I think you only need to look at the difference in sales between GIOMH and "That Lucky Old Sun" to see the effect it's had on the wider perception of Brian-today as an artist worth pursuing.

(And the fact that Brian's Smile is such a gorgeous album, and TLOS is exactly the sort of tuneful, playful, tasteful, timeless, crafted work that I would never have imagined the maker of "Imagination" would be capable of again, has only helped get people into appreciating him.)

Sure, there are still lots of people out there to whom Brian is just some brain-damaged old guy... but that was the case in the old days as well.  I know, I was one of them.  Even so, the number of people who will say "damaged genius" now rather than just "fried ex-Beach Boy" has grown in the past decade... it's not just the '60s or '70s generation who kept the faith, the idea's crossed into the post-Brian-Is-Back generation, like me.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Heh -- tempting, but given the tabloid trouble my wife got into when she had the Doctor drop acid (back in her first book), I don't know how much of the real story we could get away with!  >:-)  Though the image of David Tennant's Doctor being the only person who could keep up with a wired Dennis has a certain appeal...

(I did slip a reference into "The Year Of Intelligent Tigers", though, where there's a mention that they're performing "Smile" at a music festival a few centuries from now.  "Whose reconstruction?"  "Hunt and Lane, I think..."  I wrote that bit in 2000, and it just goes to show how bad science fiction is at predicting the future!)

...Dammit, now you've got me thinking about story ideas.  Maybe I'll call it "The Lonely Sea"...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Why do you think "the mystique of Smile is gone"? The Smile era is still one of of the most discussed topics on any BB/BW message board, with BWPS raising as many questions as answers. And why do you think "the people to whom the mystique of Smile is gone are the people who were highly invested in Smile-as-puzzle-box"? Do you really think that the many people who value the Smile mystique lost any of that mystique to the Darian Sahanaja-led sequencing of Smile songs for a live performance.

You wrote "Smile-as-redemption-story is a whole different myth". A myth?

And, finally, you wrote, "he climbed the mountain that defeated him all those years ago". Mountain? Defeated him? There are a lot of people who consider Brian's music - after Smile - including Smiley Smile, to be among his best ever. Have you ever listened to Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, parts of Surf's Up and Carl & The Passions?

Jonathan, BWPS doesn't do anything for me. Sorry.

About its objective position in western culture, I've read wildly differing viewpoints, here and abroad. I guess we need some more years to have a clearer view.

I don't -- Dancing Bear was the one who wrote "Gone is the mystique around Brian AND Smile."  Me, I think it's got plenty of mystique -- not so much in the how-could-you-possibly-fit-these-pieces-together end of things compared to the old days when that was the topic in the close quarters of BB/BW fandom, but as an awe-inspiring album.  And that mystique's spread to people who didn't really notice it before.


Yeah -- myth not in the falsehood sense, but in the story-which-gives-meaning-to-the-pattern-of-life-and-the-world sense.  An archetypal tale.  See also "the California Myth", which hardly claims that the California experience didn't actually happen to the people who were living through it.  :-)

(Sorry, I was talking like a Pretentious Writer Type there, I think...)


Sure -- there's loads of brilliant stuff in those years.  For the record, I groove on "Wild Honey" more than "Friends", think that "This Whole World" is probably one of the most sublime two minutes of music in the whole era of sound recordings, find almost every one Brian's contributions from around Sunflower through Holland delightful, am congenitally incapable of getting "Games Two Can Play" out of my head, and even have a real soft spot for "A Day In The Life Of A Tree".  But I think it's hard to deny that abandoning "Smile" was a crippling blow to Brian's confidence, and that that was both exacerbated by and contributed to his failing mental health.  "Smile" cast a huge shadow over him, and his finally coming to grips with it -- yes, with Darian's help and plenty of support -- is one of those life-redefining moments.

I mean hey, I've seen him on the Sydney Opera House stage, singing the coda to "Surf's Up" and genuinely beaming -- who would ever have imagined that even ten years ago?

Cheers,
Jon Blum

BWPS is great.

Brian Wilson is still talented, if damaged.

Accept it.

I How I see it: Smile is all about what it could have been. I think 40% of it - the stuff in the boots, anyway -  sounds unfinished and doesn't really rock my world. Now, the myth: Brian knew how to put those snippets together, and it all would make sense, with vocal melodies on top of instrumental tracks, edited together, if only he had had the time and/or will to finish the thing. Then, Smile 2004 and BWPS. Brian is back on board, he's supposed to remember how it was supposed to go, back then. But did he ever know? What if there was never a plot?

Hi Amy, thanks for your contribution to what in my eyes is an outstanding discussion. I've become hugely interested in the psychological/psychiatric side of things related to perception, opinion and judgment, esp. in the arts.
When commenting on SJS's posts I knew that he and I differ on crucial topics. That's not bad at all. But I tried to step in his shoes for a couple of moments, and also tried to see why we differ. I am 49 now, and became a fan in 1974, when I was 15. I'd say that the view of things for someone who began to like their sound in general with 'Kokomo' is different, out of necessity. I still can claim that I 'grew up with the band', albeit partially at best. They can't. (SJS, this is a general remark, not about you.)
For me, tracing back the various steps for bands like The Small Faces, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, Hendrix' Experience, Led Zeppelin, and countless others is extremely difficult, because I never was a fan proper. So when recently a co-worker at the Lab gave me a DVD of Led Zep in their prime, I watched it once, out of courtesy, and found it overlong, bland, dodgy sounding, and past its sell-by-date. Sounds harsh, but that's what I felt. Yet I value the taste of my colleage in general.
It cost me a long time to find admiration for 'Forever Changes', for the reasons listed above. I could not see what others obviously had seen in it for ages. But now I can say I like the strange tension that Arthur Lee created between seductive string and horn arrangements and charming melodies on the one hand, and some eerie, hidden menace in the lyrics and the vocal performance. Art, that's what it is.
One cannot relive (parts of) one's life, luckily so. But one of the periods (for more than one reason) that I would like to 'feel' again is 1988. To immerse myself in that solo LP, and feel the exuberant joy throughout the whole album. Now I can't do that anymore. 'Walkin' The Line', 'Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight', 'Let Your Hair Grow Long', heck, even 'Little Children' sound like very strained efforts to me. But I'm a fool for 'Love And Mercy', 'Melt Away', 'One For The Boys', and 'Rio Grande', make no mistake.

It's great to read all your replies here, folks. May the debate continue...

Yes, I read that book a couple of years ago and had a good chuckle at that part of the story.

It also goes to show...people were expected to "get" the SMiLE reference in the novel...so it and Brian are a part of popular culture.

I remember thinking "Hmm, just a few years after the book was written...and its already out of date! No need for a reconstruction now, Brian's done it!"

I still sometimes step back and think.......Yeah...Brian Wilson completed SMiLE...

From wikipedia

"The UK Albums Chart is a list of albums ranked by sales in the United Kingdom. It is formulated by The Official UK Charts Company and a Top 200 published in ChartsPlus (only the Top 100 is counted in data sources)."

Just like I said. On the website, in the media, in the official album chart books, you'll only see the Top 100. What's so difficult to comprehend about this ? It's like saying "Marcella" was a #110 hit in the US Hot 100.

BTW, to hit the heights of #199 in the UK means the sales were probably about 199 too.

Yeah, so much garbage written by Brian and Mike, like "Warmth Of The Sun" and "Good Vibrations".
Yep, they were nobodies in '65 with Mike being the main collaborator.
Get a grip, it sold because the material was great.
Without Mike, Brian never even gets to the point of  making the "high-end art".
I love the way people try to re-write history and downplay Mikes' importance in the groups' sound and material.
I'd take '65 Brian/Beach Boys material over anything else. And I love the many phases of the group and Brians' solo material.

Hey, buddy - you make some good points - Mike Love clearly had a knack for commerciality for a period there in the 60's, and for another quick hit in the late 80s -
I like his voice, I like a lot of the songs he has written and co-written, and I think he is an OK guy (although eccentric in his own way.)

I'm not just saying this because you are Mike Love - I really feel it - in fact, Mr. Love, I met you backstage at Westbury Music Fair in 1999! You guys put on a great show.

Ok - first question, Mike Love - what kind of audio interface were you using when you recorded the first-ever pro tools album, Summer In Paradise, on a Macintosh Quadra? One input at a time, I would imagine, right?

So, everybody, welcome Mr. Mike Love (who may have been attempting anonymity) to the board! Sure beats the hell out of David Mark's dogsitter, right?

b00ts

[
[/quote]

Orange Crate Art is not a Brian Wilson solo album....it's a Van Dyke Parks album on which Brian sings...you know that!


[/quote]

Does that mean Elvis Presley only sang on other people's records?

Got to step in here as I think this is a very irritating comment as Presley produced his own stuff. No offense to the poster, just the message !

Sorry but I didn't say that Mike's lyrical contribution was garbage, nor was I trying to play down the importance of his contribution to the BBs' legacy, to Brian's development and maturation, and indeed to rock & pop history.
I was trying to imply that the material Brian wrote with Mike was commercial gold but what he collaborated on with the likes of VDP and Asher was ambrosia.
Some people will take BBs' 65 material over the superior stuff that was to come; if that wasn't the case the BBs would never have had the commercial success which served as a spring board for Brian to aspire to greater things. If it wasn't for those 45rpm-buying masses, he wouldn't have been able to move on to more mature projects like Pet Sounds and Smile.
You stay stuck in 1965 buddy - those of us who've evolved on to 1966/67 would like to peer back over our shoulders, say "Hi" and "Thanks"!

 :p

Wow, that was a pretty arrogant and lame post.

It wasn't meant to read arrogant, just daft. hence the " :P" and not " >:(".   
 :-\

Aha. My apologies then.

Good point...then perhaps if OCA is NOT a BW solo album because all he did was the vocals, how many albums could that be said of with "solo" albums out there?

Yep, some people I know like his voice but find Brian and Carl's voice really annoying.
To borrow from a friend on the Blueboard, here's a little poem:

He's like a coiled-up cobra ready to strike
The voice in his head says "go tell 'em, Mike,
Who rocks the party, who wrote the song,
Hippy f****t scum should know they're wrong.
Oh, and peace on Earth. Merry Christmas, Everyone.

Ok. case in point: The Richard Harris albums that were written, arranged and produced by Jimmy Webb. Who's saying they're Jimmy Webb albums?

I guess the problem here is what's expected from an artist. We expect Brian to write, arrange and produce at least some of the albums he's been part of.

Well, evolved enlightened one, you speak as if  Beach Boys' successful (sales-wise) records are somehow inferior. Why? Because they sold more and appealed to more people? Bollocks
You may prefer "Smiley Smile" to "Summer Days" but that certainly doesn't make it superior to my ears.
To suggest that a preference to any particular phase of BBs music is being "stuck" is ludicrous. It all dates back decades, so what's your point? Beside, all great music is timeless.
While (as i've already stated), I enjoy all BB music, after '66 almost nothing hits me with the same"wow" effect that the earlier recordings did.